look, i felt depressed after watching it, and i thought it was just me, and i read an article about how the show is making a lot of people depressed. it is a deep look at what happened with jeffrey dom or. a lot of people are saying, that's hard to watch, a lot of black people are killed in, that yes, true, however, there are a lot of black heroes in this who stand up to jeff, stand up to the system that is ignoring them. niecy nash character, jesse jackson character. >> we have to go try. but i have to say this quick. if you don't want to be depressed, another thing you can watch, i think, is the uvalde school district a couple other police officers. trey, and a team of, thank you so much for joining us, that is tonight's read out. all in with chris, starting right now. right now. tonight, on all in. >> trump failed. we were calling for him to use the insurrection act all through the summer.

he did not do it. >> day four of the seditious conspiracy trial. >> trump should have acted, and just manned up to do it, but he didn't. >> tonight, new evidence of how hard the oath keepers pressed for a coup. congressman jamie raskin, on what it means for the committee's final hearing. then, even new reporting suggesting the justice department thinks donald trump is, still, hiding documents. plus, new reporting that herschel walker urged his ex girlfriend to have a second abortion. joe searcy owning, on the presidents candid remarks about vladimir putin, and nuclear armageddon. all in, starting right now. >> good evening, from new york, i'm chris hayes. we begin tonight by setting a scene for you at the e barrett premium federal courthouse in washington d.c.. five members of the right-wing gang, the oath keepers, are currently on trial for seditious conspiracy. in connection with their plot to keep donald trump in pair

power with, the 2020 election. we have been bringing you updates from this courthouse, as the trial unfolded this week. we saw a jaw-dropping evidence yet. as the department of justice is what the leader of the oath keepers, amherst urich rose iii is saying, and planning, in the months leading up to january 6th. >> we already know quite a bit about roads, and with the election, it is gathering a group of oath keepers in washington d.c., warning that president donald trump to be paid in the insurrection, and deputize's group under the old law, as a state sanctioned militia. he was preparing to fight a bloody civil war for peaceful transfer of power we know all of that because el mirage the third, yale law grad, said it himself, in public. >> we have men stationed outside of d.c. as a nuclear option, in case they remove the

president illegally. we will step in, and stop it. good man on the ground already, we've been doing recon for the last week, and we are sorting out where we will be staging, and we will be there. we will be inside d.c., and who will be the outside of the d.c. armed if the president calls on it. >> the defense attorneys is arguing that everything he did in the lead up to january 6th as a legal. because, he thought, donald trump would invoke the insurrection act. he claimed that roads, and the oath keepers, were just preparing themselves. waiting for trump, before they acted. but then the justice is putting a big hole on that argument. they play this clip of roads from november 2020, explaining, the insurrection act was their legal cover. >> we also saw urban posted up outside. we'll have to make a determination of who goes where, and who's going to be on the outside, and who's going to be on the inside. so we're going to have a q r f, armed q r s. but that you are f-will be awaiting the presence of, it's okay? that's our official position. and the reason we have to do

that way is because that gives you a legal cover. >> yes, that sort of official position. you know that we are speaking in good faith. the q r f, at that reference, is what oath keepers are armed, and ready to deploy. that brings us to today's testimony, and it was directing oath keepers to be private. it was the standout had investigated the case, and is messages they obtained during the investigation. roads said, to oath keepers group chats. it was painting a picture of a man who is dead set on marshaling violence, and wage war against a rightfully elected violent with the peaceful transfer of power. on november 25th, 2020, three weeks after trump about the election, rhodes wrote to a group called old leadership chat. quote, time to get serious about training. and force on force is the way to go.

two days later, he elaborated. it is seven it will be 70 76 oliver got. on december 14th, the day when the electors cast their votes, formalizing joe biden's win roads for the group, trump has one last chance to act. he must use the insurrection act. unless we fight a bloody civil war revolution. the following day, rhodes wrote to another group. that one called themselves friends of roger stone, or friends of stone. quote, i feel like i'm taking crazy pills, lol, nonsense. he must do it now before january 6th. referring to trump, again, invoking the insurrection act. they barred up again, and it was at the end of december. saying, he felt that trump, quote, now understands that the insurrection act and warfare, with him as commander in chief, is the only way that he would save our republic, but he needs is that how they do it, we will. if we have to do it ourselves, without him as

commander-in-chief, it will be exponentially harder, and many more of us will die. on new year's eve, roads was clear about what he believed would happen in the following week. on the six, they're going to put the final nail in the coffin of this republic. unless we fight our way out. with trump, preferably, or without him, we have no choice. those messages show, what elmer stewart rhodes was planning for, and anticipating, was a bloody, violent insurrection. ultimately, we also reveal a fascinating irony that, i can't get past. everyone else, every single other person who is ever placed their trust in donald trump rhodes, a man apparently willing to die on trump's behalf, ended up disappointed. the ex president, never did pull the trigger on the insurrection act. on inauguration day, and was being let down by trump, but, alarmingly, he should have called the action.

>> it's amazing that trump will let the election be stolen from under him, and let our country be stolen like this, our government. so, we now have to prepare to walk the path of the founding fathers. your independence is not beholden to the old mid tournament resume. there are the ones who are the violators. we need to declare that, and the strong with our communities. raise local emissions in counties, and like the founders did, we need to nullify, refused to comply, and when they come for you, you defend your selves. >> stewart rhodes, at the center of one of two seditious conspiracy cases with the doj. the second, involving right-wing gang, the proud boys, who are connected to longtime trump advisor, roger stone. yesterday, one of their high-level members pleaded guilty to the first of the proud boys in this case to do so, and agreed to fully cooperate with prosecutors. they're oath keepers who have done that in the other case as well. as the doj continues its cases against these two right-wing

gangs, both with the dishes conspiracy, the january six committee has been hard at work, connecting the dots, between their efforts in, the ex presidents administration. that set the stage for the committee's next hearing, scheduled for thursday, at 1 pm. we know that they are planning to show more video, from a documentary team that followed roger stone, after releasing this clip last month. as we have seen from the trial, there is interesting new evidence with the connections of roger storm, and the oath keepers. this is a member of the january six committee, and he joins me now. it's good to have you. are you following this trial at all, is a committee following? >> very closely. >> i'm wondering, is there a surprise to you that the january six committee, and federal law enforcement is the tool disposal with different investigative methods? the department of justice has

cooperators, who will then give them things. are you still learning from the trial? >> we are learning that stewart rhodes only defense, which is that he anticipated the insurrection act being invoked by the former president, has already collapsed. they have, already, put on evidence demonstrating that he saw that as legal cover for what he was going to do, regardless, and he anticipated is far bloodier exercise without the thin veneer of this presidential order. the thing that was certain to begin with is instead of being charged with murder, he said, i thought i was going to be deputized by the sheriff, but i wasn't. in other words, i had no legal authority, but i thought i would. that doesn't help you. in any of vent, the president does not have the authority to turn the proud boys, or the oath keepers, or any other private militia into an official state militia. those are organized by the

states, the constitution says officers are appointed by the state government, and they exist under the discipline created by congress. is what i'm assuming, this yale law school graduate understands makes no sense, but thought that he could throw some legal smoke screens up over what was, clearly, dangerous, insurrectionary activity. this is a violent insurrection. >> there is the question of prosecuting insurrections, and phil prosecutions in the past. it was investigating the scheme from a different perspective, and also a constitutional law scholar. if you're being prosecuted, that means you failed. if they're successful, they're not in court, they're running the government. so, by definition, the insurrection has failed and it's being prosecuted. number two, the first amendment it was that people have assembled, they can speak, they

can think terrible things, and that donald trump should use violence to stay and office? you actually have to act, how hard is that threshold, it is that part of what you look again in this trial? >> well, i think you need the mens rhea, the intent. clearly, there was intent. it was all over these online communications they were having. then, you need forward motion, and the actual taking ups against the government. there is the engagement and violence, and i think we saw that as well. we don't have to wait for an insurrection to succeed, in order to treat it as an insurrection. article one, section nate, clause 15, says that the call forth to the militias of the states, and will force the laws to suppress insurrections, and

repel invasions. of the united states. so, it is one of the major purposes of calling forth malicious. not in order to conduct insurrections, but in order to suppress them. there is more than a half dozen different mentions in the constitution, and it was going to put down insurrections with domestic violence. >> i want to read some reporting in the washington post with roger stone. this is a stewart rhodes message to him, on november 7th, 2020, and i read it here. the news network declared joe biden the winner of the 2020 election. the oath keepers found message to a group chat that included longtime trump confidant, roger stone. this is the friends of stone. what is the plan. we need to roll, i'm on my way to d.c. right now, with my oath keepers tactical leaders for a d.c. up, to do a leaders recon and make plans. i'm available to meet face to face. you have the friends of stone, were lots of this is organized. do you think we know the full

scope of roger stone's involvement on january 6th? >> we know a little bit more with, every trial, and with every bit of investigative evidence, that is surfacing. the way to think about stone is there was three people that were pardoned by the president. stone, michael flynn, and steve bannon. all three of them, acting as intermediaries, to a different extent, with the domestic violence extremist groups. of course, roger stone has made a career out of that, and the transmission belt with the highest precincts of power in, the republican party, and street fascists, and hooligans. that's how he defined his role. we saw that in 2000, during the gucci riot, as well. but, michael flynn, also, has been doing his outreach.

i think i call these guys the flintstones. they are, really, the critical point of contact, between the trump campaign, to overthrow the 2020 election, and the domestic violence extremist groups. i think that donald trump was, pretty careful, to not get his hands dirty, if what he would say in public, such as proud boys, stand back, stand by. so, he made his intent clear at that level. it's kind of like when he said to putin, to russia, go out and find the emails. he would do a, to that extent, broadcasting his general intent. but, in terms of working with them, specifically, that was left to subordinates. >> interesting. it wasn't outsourcing to stone that, clearly, it was in the middle of a lot of those. that was a documented fact, we saw providing security, and alike. is there anything you can tell us to look for, or any broad contours of what to expect for

the hearing on thursday? >> it was the central culpability of donald trump, is how he began in augusta there. we hope that there is a continuing clear, and president danger, at the democratic institutions, and the right to vote face in america, because of this onslaught, unleashed by donald trump. we have a majority gop candidates across the country, who are now election deniers. that, obviously, poses a serious threat of electoral destabilization, going forward. the heightened threats of galvanized, domestic extremist groups, and the continuing assaults of registering peoples rights to vote, and their rights to votes to counted. people don't come to think of this as a discreet, and passed episode, but a continuing

threat to the republic, and one that calls upon all of us, across all political lines, across the country, to stand up for democratic institutions. we know that the hallmarks of fascist political parties are a cult of authoritarian personality, mitt based on a charismatic figure, a refusal to accept the results of democratic elections when they don't go their way, and then, a refusal to disavow political violence, or in an eagerness to embrace political violence. all of those factors are, very much, in the air today. >> congressman jamie raskin, who sits on that committee, which will be holding the hearing on thursday. we will, of course, bring you live coverage of that, as well as special coverage that night. congressman, thank you so much. >> you bet. >> so, this is how republican senate candidate, herschel walker, started the week. >> i can tell, you right now, i never asked anyone to get an abortion, i never paid for an abortion, and its ally.

i'm going to continue to fight. >> this is how the week is ending, for the explicitly no abortion for any one candidate, of a brand-new report from the new york times, that he urged a woman to have not one, but two, abortions. the latest on that, next. on that, next this... is the planning effect. this is how it feels to have a dedicated fidelity advisor looking at your full financial picture. this is what it's like to have a comprehensive wealth plan with tax-smart investing strategies designed to help you keep more of what you earn. and set aside more for things like healthcare, or whatever comes down the road. this is "the planning effect" from fidelity.

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we desperately need more affordable housing, but san francisco takes longer than anywhere to issue new housing permits. proposition d is the only measure that speeds up construction of affordable new homes by removing bureaucratic roadblocks. while prop e makes it nearly impossible to build more housing. and the supervisors who sponsored e know it. join me, habitat for humanity and the carpenters union in rejecting prop e and supporting prop d talk to anyone in san franciscog and they'll tell you now is not the time to make our city even more expensive by raising taxes. san francisco has one of the largest city budgets in america. yet when it comes to homelessness and public safety, we're not getting results. what we really need are better policies, more accountability, and safer neighborhoods.

vote no on propositions m and o. the last thing we need are higher taxes, especially right now. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. exclusive story in trump endorsed georgia candidate, herschel walker. this one, unlike the last ones,

comes to us from the new york times which is reporting, an ex girlfriend, who walker reportedly paid to have an abortion, in 2009, now, is alleging 2009, 2011, cher should have a second abortion. instead, she chose to have their son, and they ended their relationship. the times reports that walker was barely involved, in their ten-year-old son's life. a little more than court ordered child support, and the occasional gift. they tell the times, quote, as a father's done nothing, does exactly the cortez, and that's it. he has to be held responsible just like the rest of us, and if you want to run for office, you need to own your life. this most recent news comes after a report from the daily beast, and from the daily walker, a guy who is campaigning for complete total abortion ban, paid for a girlfriend's abortion back in 2009. i should note, the times explicitly said the woman in question, is the same woman. they went out, and verified, the l.a. beast report, and advanced it. we are talking about different

individuals. that is what the times did with the story. nbc news has not independently verified either of these two stories. walker has denied the daily beast reports, but has not responded to the new reporting, of the new york times, seeming to confirm some key details. joining us now, elie mystal, justice correspondent for the nation, who is closely been following the walker campaign. this is -- yet another day, yet another not great headline for herschel walker, and his quest to become a senator in georgia. >> chris, i want to start with the gospel according to john. when herschel walker lies, he speaks in his native tongue. for he is a liar, and the father of lies. indeed, chris, it was the only thing the herschel walker and try to abort, that we are now learning. so, the problem here is that i focus on the lying, and it was a rat of a bad hypocritical, and frankly, pathetic arguments

in his defense. one of the consistent ones that you keep wearing, is this idea that he is born again. this idea that people make mistakes in the past, and can be forgiven. one of the first keys to forgiveness, and it is admitting that you have done something wrong. so, as of right now, herschel walker, takes no responsibility, and republicans like to hypocritically throw around. he takes responsibility, and takes no honesty, in his own actions. chris, look, i am catholic. we have rules on this. i know how many hail mary's i have to say if i get a sea in french, okay? the entry point to forgiveness, is telling the truth. something that herschel walker seems, constitutionally, unable to do. >> good point. i'm just saying this on twitter, i too was raised catholic. you need to come clean, before you get to be forgiven. i say by the grace of jesus

christ, eric go, i need to get out of jail pass for the rest of my life. it was just the political context. when this story broke, you will remember, the georgia political cooperative, and then people change. so, he was pilloried for that, understanding, lisa shudder hockey for how seriously he takes abortion. is it, indeed, the murder of a child? they don't seem to think so. but also, they had to delete it, because it looked bad. that was the correct political instant. the correct political and state, to do that, not my and say, this is defamatory, i'm suing, because the woman, in question, is out there talking to reporters. it isn't going to go away. >> you pay for an abortion by check, okay? for your younger viewers, he put the abortion on the block chain. that is how we know this happened. again, i think the instinct is right. the interrogation, really, isn't about walker, who is a

menstrual, who was sent here to play black tommy tuberville. that is all he is. he is not, actually, important. the entire conversation needs to happen at the republican party. what we see, time and again, is at this debate, this argument, has never been about abortion, it's never been about morality, it's never been about jesus, it is all about controlling women. that's why, as the comedian -- says, republicans only believe in abortion if you need it to save the life of a political candidate. they are so consumed by their grasp in power, that they are, literally, by their own words. there is literally going to support is trying to pay for one, baby murder, and tried to murder other babies, according to them, over a senate candidate who, simply says, yes, it's some people's call.

that's not my back. it should be between a woman, and her doctor, and the state should do things that are appropriate to a secular method. that's warnock's position, and they will reject, i believe, again, the theological construct is, freewill. they will reject freewill, and, instead, go with this liar, who, according to their own beliefs, supports one who has personally aided in the murder of children, according to them. >> there was news today, he was fired, his political director, which i thought was funny, because i don't think it's a political direct assault. >> it's not his fault, dude. >> he didn't write the check, i don't think. but, also, there is an upcoming debate with raphael warnock, that i saw a report on today. warnock is not touching this, and again, i have never run a campaign. i don't know what the right call is here. i understand, why if you're warnock, why get involved, but one imagines, this will come up

in the debate. >> chris, here is the difference between democrats, and republicans. if this is the democratic candidate in this kind of trouble, at the debate, the republicans would have the woman in the front row. >> that's what they did. >> that is how they actually roll with this. democrats, are always, trying to play nice, always trying to stay above the fray, always trying to talk to people up here. republicans get down in the dirt with this stuff. a democratic version of herschel walker would not have survived the week. >> let's be clear, a democratic version of herschel walker would not be a viable candidate in the state of georgia. before this week. at least at all. it was a very different standard where we begin here. and i missed all, thank you, have a great weekend. >> have a nice weekend. >> still ahead, two months after the mar-a-lago raid, here is a question. is trump still stashing documents he is not supposed to have? well, the fbi seems to think so.

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prop 27 sends 90% of profits to out-of-state corporations in places like new york and boston. no wonder it's so popular... out there. yeah! i can't believe those idiots are going to fall for this. 90%! hey mark, did you know california is sending us all their money? suckers. -those idiots! [ laughter ] imagine that, a whole state made up of suckers. vote no on 27. it's a terrible deal for california. more than eight weeks since fbi we win. you lose. searched on trump's retirement home, seizing thousands of government documents, including 18 documents, marked as top secret. 54 mark to secret. 31 marcus confidential. one of them, 11,000 government documents, or photographs, without classification markings. 48 empty folders, as well, marked as having contained classified information, also

taken. we also what we came in the documents, it came in those declassified folder, sort of an obvious question. but, since and, trump's lawyers have done everything they can to slow the investigation down. and, to get the documents back from the department of justice. now, eight weeks later, the new york times reports, quote, a top justice department official told former trump's lawyers in recent weeks, that the department believed he had, still, not returned all of the documents he took when he left the white house. katie benner, the reporters who broke the story for the new york times, and she joins me now. so, i chuckle, i have to say with that headline, because you have to think, at this point, we have gone around this quite a bit. i think, coming clean, tell us what indicates, through your reporting, that you still think he might have documents. >> the justice department, and our sources, is whether they found new evidence, or whether

they have interviewed witnesses that have told them this. i think the department has been pretty straightforward, and signaling there is a fear, including by saying, in court papers, they have empty folders marked with classified markings, and have no materials in them, and the materials that should be in them, are not in their possession. that is the big tip off. i think the reporting that trump's own legal team is divided, over whether or not to cooperate with the government in its request for the remaining documents. >> let's talk more about that because, obviously, he hired this very well regarded lawyer down in florida, with the former solicitor general for the state, paid him a large retainer, if i'm not mistaken upfront, and there has been some reporting that he has been sidelined from these discussions, and it is internal decisions about which way to go. what is the debate? >> you're right. christopher kise, he is the rare trump lawyer to be paid, so as part of the debate,

themself, they would like for trump to come clean, if he has more documents. he would like to have a third party come in, and search whatever of trump's properties need to be searched, so that the third-party can give the government a clean bill of health, and a full assessment of what that party has found. there are other people in trump's legal orbit, to have trying to convince the former president that he should, actually, fight this. if he does have anything, it's his, and he should not give it back. now, it seems, right now, it is the latter camp that is winning out. >> do we know -- the empty documents. again, this is not my area of expertise. it seems, if you see the empty documents, one of which, is on display at trump's bar, in new york city. that's it, right there. they are -- my understanding is, they don't come floating around, as a standard product. they are, always, mary to the document as a matter of procedure. is that right? >> right. because classified material is

tracked carefully, in general. so, let's say you have a folder, you do know, from the folder that what should be there. plus, some documents, i'm not sure if this includes the missing documents. i'm speaking quite generally right now. some documents are compartmentalized. only specific people are allowed to see them. these are tracked closely as well. so, you would think, by now, various agencies that handle classified materials would've done their own checks, to see whether or not they had the items that were missing. >> these are physical items, that's the whole point. so, they know, or should know, to a certain extent, where things are. there is some new reporting, and it's not your own, so i know you can't independently verify but i should note,, the rolling stone has reported that the justice department is asking if trump staff documents, in trump tower. there has been some questions directed to the people in trump circle about whether the new york city location, trump tower, bedminster, might also contain documents. those are the two residences that have not been searched. one could imagine, if they

would be anywhere, and there are documents, those would be the natural places one would imagine. >> of course. i think you are right, we haven't independently verified that reporting, but it would make sense if the fbi asked those questions, and it also goes back to this idea that some people and trump's legal can't believe, it is best to be forthcoming, and to give everything pack, rather than risk something like a search. >> yes. this is the pattern, it seems to me, here. if you track the entire trajectory of the story, what you see is a letter from the national archives, and then another letter, and then the subpoena, in the visit from the head of counter-intelligence, and then the search. it does seem like, really, they are trying. it does seem like trump truly believes, there is a debate here about who's they are. he seems to think they are his, which is what the rock bottom of the dispute is. >> that's one way to look at it. at the end of the day, they aren't his, and they've been told this. he has been told this,

including, by his own lawyers. and, he still refuses to give it back. i think this opens two important questions for the justice department. how did they get them back, from our reporting, and no one's maiden in decisions about whether this is something to negotiate, whether they should get another search warrant, et cetera. so, that is the near term question. the far term question is, what does the department, ultimately, do about its handling of the situation vis-à-vis, any sort of criminal charges? it may be hard to make a strong case in court about the actual national security assessment, and some of the other charges under the espionage act, partially, because this information, and here's the irony of it, if it is extremely sensitive, it is unlikely will be allowed to be used in a court of law. it's hard to make these arguments. but, what seems like obstruction, is how i will put it, seems to be playing out, in public, back and forth, in realtime. so, how can the department address that? and will they ignore it? >> it seems like they are being

backed into helping the guy, which is bizarre. barr the independent mastication, which i can't predict. if i was writing a screenplay, or a comedy, the funniest thing that could happen would be a search of bedminster, where they find classified documents. >> likely the brothers a have. >> exactly, that's the funniest thing to happen. katie, thank you very much. coming up, the massive disparity and covid deaths between republicans, and democrats. what it means for this winter surge, next. surge, next. ne attacks. qulipta gets right to work. keeps attacks away over time. qulipta is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and tiredness. ask your doctor about qulipta. what happens to your body language when you use dove dry spray? [laughing] it shows. try dove dry spray. our weightless formula with 1/4 moisturizers is effective and kind to skin. leaving you feeling instantly dry and confident. i'm aline and i live in castle valley, california.

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this new study just published, about the danger of not taking covid seriously. it is has confirmed from the beginning, when i suspect, what many of us did. we have seen republican politicians, fox news anchors specifically, attacking under minded covid vaccination specifically for cheap gain or ratings. this is what they are still saying on fox news, two and a half years into the pandemic. remember that not a single thing here is true. >> effectively, in my opinion, these covid shots are like used cars that did not work. >> clearly, you are more likely to be injured or dead from the vaccine then if you were unvaccinated. >> now the cdc is actually saying that people that are booster to have a greater likelihood of getting the current variant of covid. >> the new variant booster, they want to tell sell us that after telling as the pandemic is done.

forget that. >> none of that is true. there is good evidence that hundred thousands of people are dead and shouldn't be because of disinformation like that. the study by the national bureau of economic research found, political party affiliation was a fist associated with excess death rates at the individual level during the initial years of the covid-19 pandemic. registered republicans in florida and ohio had higher excess death rate and registered democrats, driven by a large mortality gap, get this, in the period after all adults were eligible for vaccines. that is the key part, that last part. republicans had higher excess deaths that were made worse after vaccines were available. so, look at this chart from the study. at the beginning of the pandemic, you see the excess death rates go up and down but they are pretty much the same between the white and blue lines. they are basically touching. the line start to diverge after may of 2021 when vaccines become widely available. the red line, the one higher up,

representing the excess death rates of registered republicans, start separating in rising higher than the blue line, which represents the excess death rate of registered democrats. and you can see, as of the most current data, the red line is just way higher. after april 5th, 2021, when all adults were eligible for covid-19 vaccines in florida and ohio, the gap and death rates between republicans and democrats increased to a 153% difference. in plain terms, there are so many people who died of covid because they listened to people on fox news. and the other thing that is really maddening to me is that, in some ways, the most cynical voices around vaccination ended up winning a we are kind of victory. because they have sort of politicized straightforward and easy covid prevention measures -- mitigation measures, the vaccine -- and that, combined with an understandable covid exhaustion, which we all feel, has made the u.s. wildly under vaccinated. i know it sounds crazy to say that.

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that lately the threat of nuclear warheads felt closer than at any point in my lifetime. there is a reason for that. on early tuesday morning, for example, north korea fired a long-range missile directly over japan. it was the first missile came john launched to his neighbor in five years and the longest -- missile north korea ever fired. sirens went off, warning people to take shelter. [noise] and then there is russian president vladimir putin, who has been openly threatening to use nuclear weapons since the day he invaded ukraine. but it has gotten worse recently, as russia faces more battlefield losses, and a chaotic mobilization of new military forces at home, putin's recent latest threat was ominous. not long before he illegally annexed more ukrainian territory, he said he would defend his country's quote,

territorial integrity with, quote, all weapons systems available. all this leading to president joe biden reportedly issuing quite a stark warning last night at the private stun fund-raiser telling people, quote we, have a direct threat of the nuclear weapon, if in fact things continue down the path we are going. and that we have not faced the process of armageddon since kennedy and the cuban missile crisis, which was in 1962. i want to bring in one of the foremost experts on the subjects. joe 70 only, who has spent decades studying the threat of nuclear weapons. he wrote recently in the washington post, putin says nuclear threat is no bluff. we should take him at his word. first of all, joe, what do you think of the president saying this is the most imminent threat of nuclear weapon deployment since 1962 in the cuban missile crisis? >> thank you for having me on, chris. president biden is correct. we have had lots of near misses but we are closer to the intentional use of nuclear

weapons now then we have been in these 60 years since those terrifying few days in october 1962. the president is absolutely correct in his assessment. >> one thing i've heard is this. putin's military has performed very poorly. they have been forced to mobilize the country and institute, essentially, a draft, even though they don't call it that. and ask his forces lose ground, putin is reaching for a nuclear threat as a means of getting people to come to the negotiating table to arrest those losses and basically get a negotiated settlement that keep some of the territory they have won before it gets lost. and if you take his threat seriously, you are sort of playing into his hands of using this as a tool of coercion. what do you think about that argument? >> we do have to take his threat seriously. this is not a bluff. he has the means to do that, he has 6000 nuclear weapons. we failed to and lebanon nuclear weapons after the cold

war, so we left him with his arsenal. he hasn't method to use them. russia doctrine explicitly calls for nuclear weapons first in a conventional battle in order to turn the tide of war. and he has got a motive. he is not only losing the war in russia terribly -- the russian army looks very fragile at this point -- but now he is open up a second front in russia and he's losing that, in part being attacked by his right-wing base, urging him to use nuclear weapons. so, means, method, motive -- this is quite serious. that does not mean that we give into it. that means we have to do what i think president biden is doing, building up a global response to try to deter putin from going down this nuclear road. >> what does deterrence look like? what is deterrence look like right now? >> it is a combination of things, most importantly, demonstrating to putin that this is not a winning move. this will not end the war. this will lose it for him. so, he will be diplomatically isolated. he thinks the economic sanctions are tough now?

wait until he is cut off from the international banking system and all energy supplies are banned from purchase from russia. there are military options, including conventional military strikes on the army in europe. you could bring, in an extreme case, nato directly into conventional warfare here. the cyber options i mean, i don't want to get to over the top here, but we could turn moscow dark with cyber warfare. we have a lot of things we can do that we have held back. and then of course, there is psychological warfare. you could be reaching out directly to military leaders in russia, reminding them that we know where they live, we know how to reach out and touch them. and that there is life after losing a war if they break with putin and not -- encourage him not to take this step towards armageddon. >> okay. you have just listed a bunch of deterrence that one could articulate, that are plausible, that are non nuclear deterrence,

right? so, let's do a quick mutually assured destruction recap here. >> yes. >> the doctrine that usually comes out of the work, i am sure, destruction, the -- cold war. tommy shelton's work again theory is -- we fire nukes, if you fire them all, the world gets obliterated, nuclear winter, no more humans, bye-bye. that logic means no one ever tries to use one. it seems to me like we are in a different world now where we are talking about tactical nuclear weapon and other means of deterrent. but is that a powerful enough deterrent? >> that is exactly right. the world you described was 60 years ago, october 1962. this is a different world, where you are tempted to use a nuclear weapon in a limited way. one, two, a half dozen, to try to stop the war in its tracks, to try to break the european support for ukraine, to play into so called peace sentiments in the u.s. and split american support for ukraine. that is what you are trying to do if you are putin.

so, you have got to try and counter that in a way that doesn't bring you, the u.s., to the brink of using a nuclear weapon. here's the other thing president biden was correct about. there is no safe way to use a tactical nuclear weapon that doesn't bring us down this road. -- >> yes. >> wargames repeatedly showed that when you start down this road, there are major escalatory risks. that's what biden is trying to do. deter him from -- and prepare responses that are non nuclear -- sure he would do. it >> okay, joseph cirincione, that was very illuminating, it's not super encouraging. i appreciate that very much. well, that is the week. it's friday night! that's all in with chris hayes for this, week alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. , there >> we go! if it ends a nuclear weapon, it is not safe. all right, you have done your duty, chris. half seven and a half three for