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tv   Ayman  MSNBC  October 15, 2022 5:30pm-6:01pm PDT

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currently concealing. but our duty today is to our country and our children and our constitution. we are obligated to seek answers directly from the man who set this all emotion, and every american is entitled to those answers, so that we can act now to protect our republic. so this afternoon, i am offering this resolution that the committee direct the chairman to issue a subpoena for relevant documents and testimony under oath from donald john trump in connection with the january six attack on the united states capitol. thank you mister chairman. i yield back. >> the gentle lady yields back. if there are no further debate, the question is on agreeing to a resolution. those in favor will say i -- >> i -- >> those opposed say no.
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in the opinion of the chair the ayes have it. >> mister chairman i requests a recorded vote. >> a recorded vote is requested. the clerk will call the roll. >> miss cheney i. >> miss lofgren? >> i. >> miss lofgren, i. >> mister schiff? >> i. >> mister schiff, i. >> mr. uglier? >> mister argue are i. >> mrs. murphy? >> i. >> mrs. murphy, i. >> mister raskin? >> mister raskin, i. >> mr. lawyer? >> i. >> miss laura, i. >> mr. kissinger? >> kissing, or i. >> mr. kissinger, i. >> mister chairman? >> i. >> mister chairman, i. >> the clerk will report the vote. >> mister chairman, on this vote, there are nine eyes and zero nos. >> the resolution is agreed to. without objection, a motion to
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reconsider is laid on the table. the chair requests that those in the hearing room remain seated until police have escorted members from the room. without objection, the committee stands adjourned. good evening, everyone. welcome to ayman. you just heard the january six committee wrap up what could be their public hearing, capping off months of painstaking work with a bank to subpoena donald trump for documents and testimony regarding the events of that day. the bipartisan panel opinion painted its clearest picture yet of it's calculated premeditated effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election and made the case that there is only one man to blame. >> all of this demonstrates president trump's personal and substantial role in the plot to overturn the election.
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he was intimately involved. he was the central player. >> president trump may not have gone to the capitol on january six, but what he did from the white house cannot be justified. while congressional leaders both democrats and republicans worked with vice president pence to try to address the violence, president trump refused urgent pleas for help from nearly everyone around him. and what he did do only made the situation worse. >> we are obligated to seek answers directly from the man who said this all into motion. and every american is entitled to desantis, so we can act now to protect our republic. >> trump responded to the subpoena with a non response. he released a rambling, 14-page letter, two pages of which were devoted to pictures, yes, pictures. and broke up his greatest lies about the election. but nowhere in those pages did
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donald trump mention whether or not he would comply with a congressional subpoena. donald trump is scared of a subpoena and will do everything in his power to delay and subvert the power of the general six committee. he'll try to weigh it out and hope that his cowardly lackey kevin mccarthy become speaker of the house and balsam out again by killing the panels investigation. but here is the underlying truth. the american people deserve to hear directly from donald trump about his responsibility for january the six. look, there's no other to say this by a democracy requires its leaders to actually be held accountable to the people and explain their actions. donald trump is not above the law, nor should he be left off the hook because his followers may not like the outcome. let's discuss all this and more with laurence tribe professor emirate us at harvard law school. professor tribe, it's good to have you back on the show. we have been checking in with you throughout the hearings. whenever there is an inflection
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point of sorts. i wanted to get your reaction to thursday's hearing. it certainly concluded with a bang. do you believe that the committee accomplished what it needed to do? >> i think the committee did a spectacular job of informing both itself and the american people up a grave ongoing danger to the survival of democracy. this final hearing made even clear than the early ones did. day-by-day, detail by detail, how the former president of the united states in engaged in a premeditated plot to seize the election regardless of the outcome. he made clear and his accolades people like roger stone, steve bannon made clear. the committee enabled the
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american people to hear how they made clear that they were planning and plotting that no matter what the votes were the president, because he knew that the way votes come in, you look like he was doing well on election evening would proclaim himself the winner and then when future votes came in, the ones that have been cast on time but hadn't been counted yet he would say it's all phony and that was the plan. it was the plan that under the federal statutes is a seditious conspiracy and the committee made it clear that one man was at the center of it. his own personal responsibility was made very dramatically clear. so, he clearly has to be indicted, whether he will be indicted first for his dangerous left of top secret materials that he planned to use for who knows what in mar-a-lago or indicted first for obstruction of justice, as
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he is continuing to hide materials or indicted for us for his role in the attempted coup and in the violent insurrection that we just seen in gritty toe. that's not clear. but what is clear is that he must be indicted. >> let me ask you about the subpoena that was issued to the former president for a moment. we should note, it's not without precedent. you had three other presidents, president thomas jefferson, richard nixon and bill clinton, have all been subpoenaed. in your opinion and from your expertise, a, what is the likelihood that donald trump would testify, but more specifically, what legal recourse or legal reaction does the committee have if he refuses to do so? >> the committee can do two different things. it can hold him in contempt or a can go to court. actually there is a third and very obvious thing because those first to take time.
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the most obvious thing is that it can draw the natural conclusion from his attempt to avoid testifying. that conclusion is that he's got something to hide and we know what he has to hide. that is that he was at the center of a plot to overturn a free and fair election. the u.s. supreme court has made clear that even though you cannot use someone's refusal to testify against him in a criminal trial so that when donald trump's tried for various crimes, his refusal to testify cannot be used against them. it can and should be used to draw the logical inference that he is trying to hide his guilt. that's why he does not want to come. it's not because he's got -- it's not because he has forgotten too much.
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it's because he knows that if he is not going to perjure himself, he will have to convict himself. he's basically going to have to admit what we now know,, and that is that he plotted to stay in power no, matter what. basically, to say to the voters i don't care what you say i am the boss, and the committee will draw the inference from his silence, adding all of that to the mountain of evidence that it has accumulated and draw the inference that he was at the center of a plot to overturn the election to commit serious insurrection against the united states government. >> there is speculation that trump if he were to testify, he'd prefer to do it publicly. would public testimony be beneficial to the committee, or is there fear that someone like donald trump could turn the process into a spectacle? >> he will try. if he really meant that he
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wanted to testify publicly i would take him up on his challenge. come on you so you want to testify. he's always said the. he said he wanted to testify before robert mueller. but when push comes to shove, he is a coward so he won't do it. i think the committee should call his bluff, and if he testifies, he's going to lie. that's all he knows how to do. he will lie under oath and commit perjury, adding to his crimes. >> i am with you on that one. i think he is definitely afraid to appear in front of the public and feel those questions and have to think live in the moment without, as he said, perjuring himself. let me ask you, professor tribe, a big part of the focus and you brought this up as well, a big part of the hearing focused on premeditated -- the panel presented multiple pieces of compelling evidence that shows trump planned to refuse to seize power, regardless of the election
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result some of it based on close confidence months and events. let me play for you one example this. watch. >> a few days before the election, mr. trump also consulted with one of his outside advisers inside activist thompson about the strategy for election it. the select committee got this preprepared statement from the national archives. as you can see the draft statement, which was sent on october 31st declares we had an election today and i won. the fifth in memo specifically indicates a plan that only the votes counted by the election day deadline and there is no election day deadline would matter. >> explain to us the significance of this kind of evidence when it comes to building a possible criminal case against the former president. >> the criminal case will
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charge that the president conspired with fit in and with bannon and stone and others including his own chief of staff to steal the election regardless of the outcome. if he does not win he will claim that he won. that is a crime. it's a crime from many different angles and poor of a crime is that you have the requisite mental state that you are not just stumbling into you know what you are doing. in the absence of this kind of evidence he might have been able to say well i really thought i won. i was delusional. a kind of big version of insanity defense. it would not be very effective anyway but now it is completely off the table. there is no way that he can say that he really thought he won. we know have testimony that he planned regardless of the outcome to claim that he won.
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we have testimony from cassidy hutchinson that she heard him say to meadows that he was embarrassed by his loss. he did not want to admit it. he was embarrassed by the 19 nothing decision by the u.s. supreme court turning back his last hail mary pass in an attempt to have to court intervene in the election. he did not want people to learn about it well that's all proof that he was not just inadvertently doing something he was deliberately violating the laws of the united states deliberately trashing the constitution making it clear that he is anything but repentance. he would do it again if given the chance. so we certainly should be indicted should be convicted and quite a part from the voters who take it into their own hands both in the polling booth and by bringing the kinds
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of lawsuits that voters in new mexico did to disqualify a county commissioner from serving in office because he had been involved in the insurrection of the constitution article three of section three of the 14th amendment says that if you take an oath to uphold the constitution and then engage in an insurrection against the constitution -- or given aid or comfort you are disqualified from ever again holding office and voters in every state or someone who was involved in the insurrection according to former president tries to get on the ballot have the option of bringing the lawsuit to keep the person off the belt. so that this is not up to merrick garland alone he has an important role to play on one and where to indict but it's up to voters as well. >> absolutely a very important point. professor laurence tribe always
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a pleasure. thank you so much for your time as always. after the break the generous conversation continues. trump's former lawyer michael cohen joins me live right here on set. (chuckles) legacy is really, really big at howard university so it's really a special moment to know that i had a family member who over a hundred years prior have walk these grounds.
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has done so far well over the course of its public hearing is actually to show trump's own
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former officials turning against him telling the truth will trump continue to lie to the american people. now in the searing you had several former administration officials including cassidy hutchinson confirmed that trump knew he had actually lost the election despite refusing to concede in public. watch. >> we are in the oval and there is a discussion going on. the president says it could have been pompeo, but he says words to the effect of the need to let that issue go to the next guy meeting president biden. >> i popped into the oval just to like get the president headlines and see how he was doing. he was looking at the tv and saying look how -- >> he said something to the effect of i don't people know i lost mark. this is embarrassing. figure it out. >> of course, there are many more trump officials like mark meadows and many republicans like kevin mccarthy who refused to admit the truth, despite how
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close we came to a catastrophe on january to six. history will remember them for the cowardice. our next guest spit up to trump and his lies. michael cohen, trump's former personal attorney is out with a new book called revanche how donald trump weaponize the department of justice against his critics. cohen writes of trump, quote his success impart lies in his ability to take advantage of people's inherent weakness their vulnerabilities and their faults. to those offense he had a fertile ground in the justice department. michael cohen joins me now. michael it's good to see you in person. before we get to the book let's talk about this week. your big takeaway in the subpoena and what the general six committee was able to achieve? >> what a absolutely spectacular programming. the event was second to none. extremely important historically for the united states. at the end of this 1000 plus
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person interview, nine hours each 9000 hours, more than a year if you go seven days a week, 24 hours a day and where are we at now? where are we at? you're talking about, oh we will subpoena trump as if anyone in this entire world, whether you are republican democrat trump supporter or trump the tractor everyone knows he is not coming into testify. you can talk about this nonsense all day long. i only want to testify if it is life if it is before the american people. no problem give me d date donald. i promise you. a put any amount of money you want he'll never show up because donald trump lies like you breed. >> let me ask you about something you set back. you are one of the first people that said you did not think donald trump would actually concede the election. -- >> a man if i can stop you for a second i was the first person. >> let me play for you this could back from 2019. watch. >> given my experience working for mr. trump, i fear that if
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he loses the election in 2020, that there will never be a peaceful transition of power. >> what is your fear if donald trump is not punished for refusing to peacefully transfer power in this country? >> i talk about this in my book, revenge. basically what he does is developed a roadmap on how he wants to get to the end result. we have seen that no. when he refused to acknowledge that the election was over that he had lost the election the same way that he knew that i was going to be providing information to the government against him. so from early on his goal was to silence me. now unlike his comments i could kill someone on fifth avenue and get away with it, i think even in his own distorted mind, he realizes that is probably not going to happen so he had to settle for the next best thing which is incarceration, using the department of justice from the top issue on the bill
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barr all the way down to the lowest level guy over at the bureau of prisons. >> we talked a little bit about this in the show that the republicans that have stayed with him kneeling, if you will to donald trump where you think someone like mark meadows or kevin mccarthy knew the donald trump? >> i have said this many times. people get angry for me saying -- it's stupid because the same reason i did. i don't know if they think that he is going to provide them with some benefit in the future whether it be power whether it be continued or -- orifice continued position with the administration that he will try to keep. why they do it? that's something that is really particular to each individual. basically, it's a lack of thought process at that moment thinking that you can actually do something with him for him, that will also provide benefit to you. >> does that apply to his or,
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because i want to ask you about christina bob care for a moment. she is somebody that is obviously representing donald trump. she is in the thick of it. you are somebody in that capacity, as a lawyer in his orbit. but why? why would a lawyer take on a case like donald trump with his, as you mentioned thousands of potential legal challenges and indictments? it is simply the money? >> that's the thing he, does not pay his lawyers. he has a history of stiffing virtually every single law firm that we have ever done business with. i do want to make a distinction that when i worked for donald it was during the decade plus when he was the presidents ceo of the trump organization. the big obvious thing that created problems in my life was the nondisclosure agreement that are prepared and worked on with key davison and california on behalf of -- stormy daniels. sure that i cannot put that scenario in place with the theft of national security documents, hiding them at
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mar-a-lago for what? >> that is what christina -- she signed the letters that these documents have been handed over, and ultimately we know that has not been the case. >> she was afraid, ayman. she was afraid that guys like eastman, or who's the other one that was there, epstein, would turn around and say, if you don't turn around and scientists, you're putting donald in trouble. so you really don't want us to tell donald that you are not part of the team especially considering that she was the new puppy into the canal. so she did not want to get ascot sofas. again i wish that they all would have listened to me. mark meadows all the way to cristina bob. when i said before the house oversight committee, i said i know the game that you are playing. i know what you are trying to do. you know why, i wrote the playbook, and it's not going to work out for you the same way it's not working out for me so i'd like to ask mark meadows, whether or not he should have listened?
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i would ask christina bob or alina hub or any one of these eastman, rudy giuliani, all of them, i just wish that they would have listened -- i wish people would read it because then they would understand exactly what happened to me with the biggest fear that i have is that it will happen to you. you're a critic of donald trump. he does not take lightly to. so his enemies list is quite large. >> let me ask you about the book really quickly, why have you. it's titled revenge and in it, you talk about how the department of justice is basically weaponized against trump critics. how much damage do you think has been done to the department of justice because of donald trump, and is it irreversible? >> and in norman amount of damage. and is it reversible? it needs to be completely overhauled. when you start seeing the former president bashing fbi agents, bashing law enforcement, the department of justice,
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today, claiming that joe biden and the biden administration weaponized the department of justice against him, it's, again, donald trump to function. this is exactly what he did, so he believes everyone is as corrupt as he is. therefore, because he is being held to accountability, what happens? clearly, the biden administration must be weaponizing the justice department against him. he is a danger to democracy. he may be the single most dangerous person in the planet, as it relates to our democracy and the future of america. >> i actually agree with you on the. the damage is done to our democracy. it's going to take years if not decades to recover from. michael cohen, congratulations, the book is revenge, it's out now. really appreciate your insights. stick around, we have more ayman coming up next. man coming up next a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back...
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