tv Velshi MSNBC October 16, 2022 6:00am-7:00am PDT
the place is changed a lot. >> yes. when i got there in 1997 full-time on the floor there were 4000 mostly men on the floor of the new york stock exchange and 80% of the volume of all of the trading on the new york stock exchange happen on the floor. 4000 people. today there are several hundred the do 15 to 20% and what happened there is technological destruction of electronic trading changed the nature of trading so we have got there as you see with something spending their form out of the new stock exchange mostly open outcry where traders were literally yell at each other saying that i've had 2000 chairs of five pfizer to buy here and you would literally have to negotiate with each other. we'll do that simply change by the time about the year 2000. so i love the floor and i am still there and i love people on the floor but that is what technological change and destruction does and by and
large the system has better pricing in this more efficient and works better and you have to support technology and the changes even though it leads to destruction. >> bob, thank you my friend. thank ring with. us particular on the weekend when you work real hard. thanks for the book in the advice and got to give me over the years. senior market correspondent cnbc, author of showed up and keep talking, messages of life and investing for the new york stock exchange which comes out on tuesday, incredibly important under conversation with judge michael luttig up next. i don't often say this but it is a conversation in the stark warning that you need to hear. it is a master class in constitutional thinking, it might just save american democracy. you need to watch this. another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. good, morning it is an area where the 15th. emily velshi. after more than your
investigation 1000 witnesses and nine televised hearing, the january six committee has some of its case. what is abundantly clear is that they now twice impeached former president incited a mob to storm the u.s. capitol and together they came this close to overturning the election that had gone against him. the only reason the disgraced former president and his allies did not succeed is because of a combination of laws that were in place. courts that did their jobs. and a literal handful of people who acted in good faith to stop him. and one of those people's judge michael luttig. judge luttig is a former federal appeals court judge who was at his home in bail, colorado, it again with his wife on january the 4th 2021. when you got a phone call from his old friend richard cullen. calling out the time was serving as outside counsel to then vice president mike pence, called it all the. time that was normal. this particular phone call was not.
they called john eastman a former -- four luttig that trump had the authority to block the certification of electors, and around the election in trump's favor. . looted was shocked to hear that eastman was just such a thing. lieutenant justin eastman is a constitutional scholar. but he told, colin quote, you can tell the vice president that i said he had no such authority at all. and quote. such authority at all anby early next, morning january the 5th, things had escalated. luttig got another urgent call from richard cohen saying, quote, can you help the vice president? we need you to say simply publicly. we need to get your voice out to the country. luttig was stumped. he was, at that point, retired, he didn't think he had much of a platform. he remembers thinking, quote, i don't even have a fax machine. then he remembered that he had opened account on the social media website called twitter a few months before. but he had never tweeted, had no idea how to. so, judge luttig typed out his statement, looked up how to make a tweet thread and, on
january the 5th, he tweeted out a seven tweet statement. it read in part, quote, the only responsibility and power of the vice president under the constitution is to faithfully count the electoral college votes as they have been cast. the constitution does not empower the vice president to alter in any way the votes that have been cast, either by rejecting certain of them or otherwise. and apparently, all mike pence needed to do was that. it gave him the authority to do the right thing, the lawful thing. but we all know what happens next. on wednesday, january 6th, then vp pence bucks donald j trump and certifies the election for the rightful winner, joseph r. biden. pence released a statement citing luttig legal analysis and the next day judge luttig was sitting at cited cvs and his car in vail, colorado when he got a call from an unlisted number. it was vice president mike pence calling to thank him. he might not have known how
meaningful his first set of tweets wherever going to be. but judge michael luttig gave pence the legal cover to defy donald trump and refused to overturn the election. this action alone may have saved democracy, for the moment. when john eastman suggested that pence had the power to overturn the election and throw the disputed electoral votes, eastman reference what they called the electoral count act. you've heard about it before. judge luttig, in his advice to mike pence, refuted easements misguided reading of the electoral count act. but that wasn't the only tactic that trump and his allies tried to use to remain in office, they also attempted to exploit vague language and a fringe concept known as the independent state legislature theory, i snl for short. remember i snl because you're going to hear it a few times in the next few minutes. extreme interpretations of the isl doctrine argue that state legislatures have the absolute power to set election rules and to determine disputed outcomes. it would give elected state representatives the authority
to redraw districts without oversight. to hand electors and even ignored their own states voting laws and constitutions. behind the scenes, trump's allies argue that this isl theory allowed for state legislatures to select electors who had cast their votes for donald trump, even though the certified electors were lawfully bound to cast their votes for joe biden or whomever had actually won the popular vote in their state. we now know that their plan didn't work, but american democracy might not be as lucky next time. because that once fringe independent state legislature theory is now the centerpiece of a supreme court case, that judge michael luttig calls the most important case for american democracy in the almost two and a half centuries since americas founding. in the case more the harper, the plaintiffs used to be isl theory to argue that there should be no checks or balances for state legislatures in elections, not even the courts. if that had been the case in
december 2020, donald trump may have gotten away with overturning the election that he did not win. in a recent piece in the atlantic, that you must read, judge luttig argues that there is absolutely nothing to support the in distant the state legislature theory. he says, quote, such a doctrine would be antithetical to the framers intended to the texts fundamental design and architecture, that of the constitution. i spoke to judge michael luttig about all of this and how it plays into the future of america. i know you are getting going with your day, but i'm going to ask you to stop what you're doing for the next ten minutes. to sit down, maybe even take some notes. because what you're going to hear is a lot, but it's incredibly important to understand just how close our democracy came to collapse, and how to stop it from happening again. judge luttig, thank you for being with us this morning, we really appreciate your time. >> good morning, ali, it's a pleasure to be on with you
today. thank you for inviting me. >> i hope we've done some justice to the story, but it's deeply complicated. there's two things at play here, i want to talk about both of them. since march of this year, you have been working with a group of bipartisan elected officials to write the electoral count reform act of 2022. you call it something that has to happen to prevent another january 6th. the changes in, it by the, way include clarifying the vice presidents role in the process, as well as raising the threshold for elected officials to object to the results of elections. in a new york times op-ed, you argue that shoring up process is around the electoral process should be in line with conservative values which you hold. in fact, i'm going to quote from you, you say the future of our democracy depends on reform of the electoral count act. the only members in congress who might not want to reform this menacing law or those planning it's imminent exploitation to overturn the next presidential election. judge, this sounds like a no-brainer.
and by the way, it's not just bipartisan, it includes people from across the political spectrum. most people think the electoral count act needs to be fixed and should be fixed. >> ali, that's correct. the efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election was multifaceted. and it entailed the exploitation of not only the constitution but a number of laws of the united states. one of those laws was, as you say, the electoral count act of 1887. that act actually gives congress the authority to decided to the presidency, in a number of circumstances. where the framers would have never intended for congress to play a role at all. so, i do believe that reform of the electoral count act is one
of the reforms that is necessary in order to prevent another january 6th. >> i remember talking to you about this in may, you made that point very clear. you are very worried that people would take electoral count act reform and feel that it was done, that it's the bare minimum people could do. which is why you are so interested in looking ahead to this upcoming supreme court case, more v harper, which some legal scholars have expressed concern that if the supreme court embraces the independence day legislature theory states could circumvent protections that are laid out in the electoral count reform act. tell me about that. >> the independent state legislature theory of constitutional interpretation, ali, was that centerpiece of the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election. long before the election itself, the former president and his allies were arguing in the
lower federal courts, and eventually in the supreme court of the united states, that there was such a theory or doctrine of constitutional interpretation. and in that context, it would give it plenary and exclusive authority in the state legislature to selected the electors. who, in turn, cast their votes for the president and vice president, transmit those votes to congress and are counted on january 6th, to determine the presidency. the independent state legislature theory, if it applies to the constitution at all, applies to both the electors clause as well as the elections clause. essentially, because that language of both constitutional provisions is, in relevant
respects, identical. an issue in the 2020 presidential election was the isl as it applies to the electors cause of the constitution. at issue in more versus harper is that theory as it a lot applies to the elections clause of the constitution. >> this is a very important distinction, because one might wonder why these two things are conducted. this is about how elections are counted, run and what decision legislature can make. this, month you wrote in the atlantic about the independent state legislature theory. writing, there's literally no support in the constitution for the pre-ratification debates or at the time of our nation's founding or framing for a theory of a depended state legislature that would foreclose state judicial review of state legislatures
redistricting decisions, and quote. without asking you to make a prediction of that supreme court's decision, how concerned are you that this court may be prepared to embrace what you have described as a fringe concept? the independent state legislature theory. >> well, no one can read the tea leaves on a supreme court decision, ali. but the genesis of this theory was in a concurrence authored by then chief justice william rehnquist, joined biden justices scalia and thomas in bush versus gore. 20 plus years ago. in that separate concurrence, they outlined what is, today, the independent state legislature theory. and the essence of it was that there should be some limit on the state supreme courts
interpretations of the law of their state laws. in order that the state legislatures be permitted to legislate the redistricting. so, this theory didn't come out of nowhere. it was grounded in concurrence in the supreme court itself. now, by december 2020, the supreme court had declined to take the case in the context of the 2020 presidential election, under the electors clause. but there was no question at that time that there were at least five justices on the court who we believed would have been interested in some variation of the theory. the only person of the five who
had not actually said as much was justice amy coney barrett, who had just come to the court and did not participate in the court's decision to declined to take those cases than. so, if you fast forward to today, with that same group of nine justices on the court, that thinking is that there are at least five justices who are interested in the theory. but, to your question, none of the justices have expressed interest thus far in as aggressive a version of the independent state legislature theory as it's being advanced by the plaintiffs in this case. in this case, as you rightly pointed out, the plaintiffs arguing that the state courts
and the state supreme courts in particular would have known judicial review power over the legislatures redistricting or gerrymandering decisions. that is the most aggressive theory, and that is the one that the plaintiffs in this case are arguing for. now, as to my prediction, i don't make any prediction. but as i outlined in the atlantic article, there is literally, literally, nothing at all in the constitution or in the history, either from the time of the founding of our country or the framing of the constitution, that even hints at the possibility of such a theory. the only argument that all is
simply that, because the election clause empowers the state legislatures to prescribe the manner of holding the congressional elections that, therefore, the state courts have no role whatsoever. that is not tenable under any of the normal rules of constitutional interpretation, and i don't, for one, believe that the court will ever embrace that particular version of the theory. >> judge, we have a lot of smart conversations on the show, and this is maybe one of the smartest. i'm glad our viewers have had the ability to get a bit of the taste of a conversation you and i have had in the past. and i hope we can make this a more regular thing, because the future of this country itself and democracy is that state. judge michael luttig is a former federal judge for the
u.s. court of appeals for the fourth circuit. i will remind you that during his 15 year tenure as a federal appeals judge he earned a reputation as one of the most conservative judges in the country. that was an important conversation, i hope we're all a little bit smarter for it. that story and the legal theory you just heard about, unfortunately, are not the only risk to american democracy. take a look at the sheer number of election deniers and qanon supporters on the ballot this november. we've been taking a hard look at the midterm elections, state by state, today were directed at the elections in ohio. with senator sharon brown. plus, you may be wondering with the secret service and the far-right extremist group the oath keepers have to talk about. and after finding out one agent had numerous contacts with the oath keepers, the january six committee wants to know the exact same thing. ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪
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that americans will see on their ballots who could endanger democracy itself. these candidates include better not limited to election deniers, qanon supporters and bold faced liars. these discussions are meant to inform voters about what their potential leaders stand for and what pro democracy precedents they want to tear down. today, we are taking a look at ohio. let's start with the secretary of state race there. if you've ever google the current republican secretary of state in ohio, franklin rose, you probably think he has had on pretty straight. he's not an election denier as far as we know, he certify the 2020 election results in his state in november of 20. not much of a feat by the way, because trump won ohio in 2020 by eight points. lo rose won his primary over qanon podcast or tony maris. but fear, not the conspiracy theories found a way back into the right, adding herself back onto the ticket as an independent. there's a few things you should know about tory marris, she had zero experience in public office but lots of experience in pushing conspiracy theories
online and insisting the 2020 election was stolen. she is leaning into hurt qanon loyalty by the way, seemingly incorporating it into her campaign logo. can you spot it there? in the o of the of in secretary of state, it looks like a cue. sneaky! vice news first made this discovery and she denied it on their quote qanon passive bowl. a case in south dakota, where mary's was living on the, time a judge ordered to pay $20,000 that she collected money to fund and the shelters and reads for veterans graves but used it instead to make purchases for herself at mcdonald's, qvc and elsewhere. the judge also found that maras it's used funds we'll miss representing education and expand she did not possess. you don't imagine for guy, but that's a lot of money to spend a mcdonald's. she was also accused of falsely claiming to be a doctor with both a ph.d. and an mba. that's enough for that one.
let's turn to the senate, raise what most are concentrating on in ohio. republican hillbilly elegy author j.d. vance, can the, right is facing off a democratic congressman tim, ryan began the, left to replace the republican senator rob portman, who is retiring. vance and ryan hurled attack after attack in a debate on monday night. here's how tim ryan described his opponent. >> who says that the president of the united states is intentionally trying to kill people with fentanyl? who says that the election was stolen? j.d. vance does. who runs around with ron desantis, the governor of florida, who wants to ban books? running around with lindsey graham, who once a national abortion ban. you're running around with marjorie taylor greene, who is the absolute east politician in america. this is a dangerous group, and we do need to confront. it >> all of his points actually check out. back in april, vance broke with the far-right publication gateway pundit and said, quote, if you wanted to kill a bunch of maga voters in the middle of the heartland, how better that to target them and their kids
with this deadly fentanyl? it does look intentional, it's like joe biden wants to punish the people who didn't vote for him and opening up the floodgates to the border is one way to do it, and quote. and has some doubt about early elections, blaming early voting for nonexistent fraud of the 2020 election. and did not commit to accepting the results of his own race next month. pantheon said he would support a national standard for abortion restrictions, a remark that came before he somehow managed to tie a young girls raped to tim ryan's stance on immigration. vance said, quote, that poor girl was raped by an illegal alien, somebody who should have never been in the state in the first place. if you had done your job, she would never have been raped, and quote. on the other side of the break, i'll be joined by the president will have to work side by side with the person who will have to that race. senator sharon brown joins me next. st a cold. coricidin is the #1 doctor recommended cold and flu brand.
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an election denier up for a senate in ohio. democratic senator sharon brown from ohio joins me now. senator, it is always good to see you, thank you for joining us. you have been in office for some time, you have watched firsthand how america's political climate has changed. how worried are you right now? not just about your state, but about this extremism, this election denialism, these basic attacks on democracy. >> well, of course we are all worried. it's a difficult time for our country and we know that a third of the country, probably a higher percentage in my state is not sure or denies that joe biden should be president or is president. and that is really troubling, when we have a republican party in ohio, those that are in the election. you did something on the secretary of state, he is a per se election denier but he certainly played to them, they
all played to the trump right-wing base. they all play to election deniers, they all play to climate change deniers. they all question democracy, even though they have won virtually everything in my state over the last decade. so, it is a troubling time, that's why we fight back. that's why we're going to have a better year this year, because most ohioans don't buy into this, most americans don't buy into this. >> let's talk about the secretary of state question. you actually where the secretary of state once. but i don't remember an election before that's where we have talked about secretaries of state, where anybody pays particular attention. you probably put the mark next to whomever is a member of the party that you are otherwise voting for. what do voters in ohio need to understand about the threat of a, maybe not an election denier, but an election footsie player? election denier footsie player overseeing elections? because this is happening across america, various flavors and textures of election denier. all the way from conspiracy
theories absolute election deniers to those who, as you say, flirt with a little bit. >> think back. when i was secretary of state, one of the things i did was, i heard you talk about mcdonald's earlier, that you like fast food, we got mcdonald's corporation when i was secretary of state to print 1 million tray liners, those little pieces of paper on your tray. >> i know tray liners well. >> they were voter registration forms, we got tens of thousands people registered. with ketchup, stains mustard stains, we accepted them. bob evans also did it, the restaurant chain in ohio. there is little opposition from even conservative republicans because it was a way to encourage people to get involved. that is so far from where the national republicans, the trump republicans are. the ohio republicans are. and they, in fact, have continued to pass legislation to make it a little bit harder to register and vote, a little bit harder to cast ballots in ohio. even though they are winning too many times. but that is the importance of man whaley for governor, the
importance of tim ryan and a number of these house races. sites, wanes, men kept, or they are contested in ohio because we are here 12 to 4 republican house delegation in ohio because they gamed the system, because they rigged the election systems in the sense of redistricting. we know, that there's no question about that. we fight back but, statewide, we can win this year because voters are catching on to this trump rigged election system, climate deniers, election deniers. >> you ran for president, and a lot of people -- or you've been involved in the presidential race, and a lot of people like you for your moderate views. the senate race in your state is unique. your colleague, senator rob portman, is stepping down. in a statement of january of last year, portman cited the hyperpartisanship that you and i are talking about. he said, quote, this is a tough time to be in public service. i don't think any sane office has been more successful in getting things done but,
honestly, it has gotten harder and harder to breakthrough partisan gridlock and make progress on substantive policy that has contributed to my decision, end quote. you are a substantive policy guy. it becomes very hard today to have conversations about substantive policy because of this, because of all the noise of election denialism, because of the noise of extremism. tell me how you evaluate this whole thing. i think you generally like working with rob portman, he was certainly one of the last republican senators to still agree to come on our shows. >> yeah, the politics, i don't see politics as liberal and conservative, left or right, i see it as who's side are you on. and it's so clear that tim ryan is on the side of workers. i took often about, from dr. king's words and pope 13th words, dignity of work. no matter whether you swipe a badge or punch o'clock or work in an office or work on salary, whatever, the dignity of work should really transcend all of this. you still can get things done
in the senate, and i will be able for sure to work with tim ryan. j.d. vance, i'll do what i have to do if he wins, but i think tim ryan is going to win this race. but somebody said this to me, a former republican congressman said that donald trump wasn't an outlier in the republican party, he was an accelerant. in other words, trump just got republicans to get where marjorie taylor greene and those people in the party are getting. that movement has been there. there are some exceptions, but very few senators with an r after their name stood up to this president and said, this is wrong. they're all afraid. even senators who are retiring are still not doing that, by and large. shelby and emhoff and what to me, a little differently maybe. so much of this is on republican extremism, and that they simply are not willing to acknowledge and stand up to this president about climate change, about election denial, all of those kinds of things.
that is why we need a big victory this year. to finally put those people and those views and those stances to rest. >> senator, it's always good to see you. thank you for taking time to be with us. appreciate it, senator sherrod brown is a democrat of ohio. i appreciate that he introduced fast food to the conversation this morning. after the, break the january six committee is asking the secret service to spill some secrets. the committee wants information about contacts between the secret service and members of the far-right extremist group, the oath keepers. the oath keepers ♪ (customer) save yourself?! money with farmers. (burke) that's not wrong. when you bundle your home and auto policies with farmers, you save yourself up to twenty percent. (customer) that's something. (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers. kinda creepy. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
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explanation for this, a spokesperson for the secret service tells and benson bc that these communications are actually common practice. ages of to talk with organized groups and protesters to inform them about where they can and can't be during an event. and what items they can or cannot bring. two secret service officials told nbc that, since the oath keepers had that phone number, they then made several calls directly to that particular secret service agent. the latest development comes as oath keepers founder stewart rhodes is on trial for seditious conspiracy, accused of plotting to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. seditious conspiracy is one of the most serious things you can be charged with in america. it's sort of the equivalent of treason. but for treason, you have to be working for a foreign government. roads, by the, way and his attorneys maintain that he had other riders had the right to organize and stormed the capitol because expected president trump to invoke the insurrection act. for a yale educated, lawyer this is just a dumb argument. because the insurrection act of
1807 allows the president of the united states to deploy the u.s. military, these days thought of as the national guard, not a homegrown militia. homegrown militias are not allowed in the united states, militias are basically gun clubs. that's not something the government would use to quell unrest on u.s. soil. so, stewart rhodes it's just wrong about that. trump, of course, did never invoke the insurrection act of this particular instance. still ahead, it may seem hyperbolic when i say the democracy is at stake in november. so, i will just let the number speak for themselves. 60% of americans will have the opportunity to cast a vote on a ballot that has an election denier on it. this is not the first time america has faced a major hurdle, but it is one of the most serious. stay tuned. stay tuned ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with
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elections been so high stakes as to determine the very future of our democracy. what about the november will determine whether individuals who promote the big lie, election deniers, will be in charge of overseeing future elections. 60% of americans will have election deniers on the ballot in november, according to recent analysis by 5:38. and since americas, chanting citizens have fine tuned what george washington referred to as the, quote, last great experiment for promoting human happiness, end quote. in that, time we have faced setbacks and growing pains and americans have sacrificed greatly to make this country more equitable and just. the common thread running through the approximately eight generations of americans that has helped to mold this experiment is continued progress. small steps and big, taken by ordinary citizens that, overtime, have strengthen our democratic institutions. the roaring twenties, for example, inside the ascendance of women's political power. the 30s ushered in workers rights, while the 50s saw the rise of civil rights.
with the 60s came the voting rights act, removing barriers to black disenfranchisement of the south. the 70s approve that sovereignty of the female body by car fire on the right to. choose roe v. wade. dotson increased protections for gay marriage. by the, way every american generation has taught to find greater rights for those who have come after them. today however, we find ourselves what we can unprecedented times. we are seeing a pullback of hard one writes, we are witnessing a former president invent the playbook for future machiavellian leaders. though the house january six committee, through the hearings for the january six hearing, we've learned in disturbing detail how a small cadre in washington engaged in a premeditated system to overturn election results. trump and his advisors waged a campaign on several fronts to preemptively challenge election results, should they favor joe biden. there is the fake electors scheme, there was talk of ordering the military to seize voting machines and what would
have amounted to a direct attack on the american voter. trump even tried to pressure his vice president to delay or block the transfer of power on january 6th. however, the ex president was blocked but brave men and women in various positions of power. now, imagine if any single link in that chain had faltered. if georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger had listened to trump and found 11,000 votes. if pence had agreed to delay president joe biden certification on january 6th. if the capitol police had not placed their bodies between inflamed maga rioters and trap lawmakers. it is very easy to forget that, had any one of those actors acquiesced to the pressure, we likely would have been looking at a very different america today. we were a hairs breadth away from total pandemonium. congresswoman liz cheney last week honed in on that frightening truth. >> please consider today who had a hand in defeating president trump's efforts to overturn the election.
vice president pence, bill barr, jeff rosen and others at the department of justice. state republican officials, white house staff blocked proposals to mobilize the military to seize voting machines and run new elections. a key lesson of this investigation is this. our institutions only hold when men and women of good faith make them hold. regardless of the political cost. we have no guarantee that these men and women will be in place next time. any future president inclined to attempt what donald trump did in 2020 is now learned to not install people who could stand in the way. with every excuse to justify the conduct of the former president, we ship away the foundation of our republic. indefensible conduct is defended, inexcusable conduct is excused. without accountability, it all becomes normal and it will
recur. >> that, my friends, is what making the upcoming midterm elections so important and so pivotal. if in the future leaders with autocratic tendencies like to preempt challenges by placing their own skills and positions of power, who is to say that one day our democratic system won't simply be handed over to a bad actor without even a fight? nor do we have to look to find a future. in several states, republican candidates who dispute the 2020 election results are running for positions that would give them control over elections in what is a concerted effort to engage in election subversion. after a quick break, to people who are fighting to protect the sanctity of our elections and our constitution. the colorado secretary of state, janet griswold, and the president of the national constitution center, jeffrey rosen. rosen. or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible.
what is at stake in the upcoming midterms is jeff rosen, president and ceo of the national constitution center. is also a contributing editor at the atlantic and the author of several important books, the most recent being conversations with our bg, justice ruth bader ginsburg on life, love, liberty and law. also joining us, colorado secretary of state jena griswold. she's the chair of the democratic association of secretary of state, she is running for reelection on november 3rd. thank you to both of you for being with us for this important conversation. jeff rosen, earlier in the show i spoke with michael luttig, the judge and we know through, you thank you for that
introduction. he noted something important in my conversation with him, let's listen to this. >> the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election was multifaceted, and it entailed the exploitation of not only the constitution but a number of laws of the united states. >> jeff, your take on this? because you at the constitution center have studied this. you had panels of libertarians, conservatives and liberals talking about all the dangers to our elections that need to be fixed. >> yes, of course, judge luttig played such a crucial role in preserving the integrity of the last presidential election, and he has called attention to the urgent need to reform the electoral count act, which is what congress uses to choose the next president. there are other dangers of election subversion that are guardrails at the project identified. including the possibility of protecting congressional
elections. imagine that there is a dispute about who has won georgia, for example and that senate seat could flip the senate. what would happen? this has happened before. john quincy adams, as a former president, had to assert extraconstitutional authority to preside over the house when it was deciding who had won the election, because that would determine the next speaker. what we face now is a situation where the house and senate have not come up with rules for guiding disputed elections the way they are tryingso, i am cont election subversion at the congressional level. and also, of course, disputed gubernatorial and state and local elections. one of the reasons for, those these are all urgent questions that we have to think about, unfortunately. >> secretary griswold, you and i have spoken a lot in the last couple years but i can say, prior to the last couple, years i never interviewed a secretary of state of my life. because i never saw a need to. there's a couple problems, one is the one that i was talking
to judge luttig about and i just mentioned to jeff. and then there is that misinterpretation that -- percent of americans believe this nonsense and joe biden not being the president of the united states. your state has come up with a legal solution, at least an attempt at a solution to the problem of disinformation. in particular, it has been embraced by county clerks who have the power to reject election outcomes. can you explain to me what you are doing in colorado? >> well, first off, thanks for having me on, ali. i thought all this time you're just having me on because i give a great interview, it turns out it's just because there is a coordinated attack on democracy. but in all seriousness, you are absolutely correct. we are seeing massive disinformation. it really started to be pushed out by foreign adversaries, russia in 2016 and 2018. and then adopted by domestic actors, who are more interested in helping their friends and themselves win races at all costs than american democracy. and i have just been so proud
of our work to push back, i set up one of the first units in the country to combat foreign disinformation. we alert civil groups across the state of that role of disinformation. one of the biggest tools we have is alerting coloradans and americans that they are subjected to this information, and where to get trusted information. we also run initiatives to make sure that coloradans are aware. but this is part of a larger coordinated effort to destabilize american democracy, destabilized elections. and make no mistake, the big lie is producing the destabilization effects on democracy. so, we really need to push back. >> jeff, let's talk about the process, right? the very things that threaten our elections. misinformation, we've got small state biases, we've got the roll of this independent state legislature doctrine that luttig judge and i spoke about, that you've spoken about in the past, we've got the electoral
count act. we have all these things that threaten elections. i think you'd be fair to say that, a few years ago, most americans did believe there are threats to the election. they don't believe there was meaningful election fraud, which there isn't. but, now we have all sorts of things that bad actors can use to undermine our democratic process. >> that is absolutely right, ali. but let's focus on the greatest threat of all, that is election subversion, literally overturning the results of the election so the arguable loser winds. that is why judge luttig it's a right to call our attention to the independent state legislature. because interpretive airy broadly, it could allow a state legislature to change of mind after an election takes place, and to certify a different winner. now, we are hoping the supreme court is not going to embrace that sweeping of a vision of the doctrine. he narrower version, though, would limit the role of state courts in looking at state elections and ensuring integrity after the fact. so, really, what we're trying to do now at the national constitution center is bring
liberals, conservatives and libertarians together to identify what everyone agrees can happen, that is overturning election rolled so a loser winds. that's why reform of the electoral count act's own port and, a narrower independence thoughtful state officials can actually make sure that the winner wins. >> secretary griswold point, bet really shouldn't be a democrat republican issue. it should be an issue of, look, we have a secretary of state running independently in ohio who, actually the republican candidate, senate candidate, who said he may not respect the outcome of the election. we have a gubernatorial candidate in pennsylvania says they can turn off the machines anytime he wants with the stroke of a pan, because they're they appoint their secretary of state. in arizona, we have three people running for statewide office who are election deniers, who say that they will actually make sure next time it doesn't happen the way it happened this time. how do you convince people who,
otherwise, would be voting republican, or otherwise are independents, that you might be casting your voted burnley for someone who is going to subvert the elections? like jeff just warned about. >> well, i think you are absolutely right on calling major attention to the times we are in. we are at one of the most important midterm elections in american history, with over 60% of americans having an election denier on their ballot come the election. not only do you see bake like open a tory or, candidates big lie attorney general candidates, you actually have 11 of unease for secretary of state who are big lies candidates. so, imagine the person being the chief election officer for a state who is tasked with making sure that every republican, democrat and unaffiliated has access to free and fair elections. but whom themselves does not actually believe in free and fair elections. in colorado, we've actually already experienced a loser of
a statewide race refusing to concede. that happened in our statewide primary, and we went into the first recount in 20 years based on conspiracies. and ali, what we did was conduct the recount in accordance with the law. it reaffirmed that the election result was exactly right. so, what we need to do as an election is commit ourselves to the rule of law. if the law is not strong, enough we need to strengthen the law. that's why they just made it a felony to realize voting in the state of colorado. we need elected officials on both sides of the aisle to stand up strong, with a strong backbone, and rejected this election denialism. pushback on all the lives. but at the end of the day, ali, the american people have all the power to course correct this country. democracy is literally on the ballot. it is literally on the ballot. and americans, republicans, democrats and unaffiliated can reject this election denialism in the midterm elections. and make sure those country remains a country of, four and
by the people. >> may that happen. thank you to both of you for continuing to shine a light on this, we appreciate. it colorado secretary of state jena griswold. jefferson is a president and ceo of the national constitution center. that was a lot. but it was important. thank you for watching me, that does it for me. catch me here next out in sunday morning from eight to 10 am eastern. i'm hitting the road, by the way, i'll be coming to you from michigan for more velshi across america. i'll be having conversations with voters about the things that mattered most of them in this election. don't forget, velshi is available as a podcast. you can listen to the entire show on the go anytime, subscribe and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. stay right where you are, the sunday show with jonathan capehart begins right now. s right now. >> indicting trump. as attention shifts to mary garland, a new piece in the atlantic argues why the attorney general will bring criminal charges against donald trump. its author, frank wham four, will make the case.