tv Alex Wagner Tonight MSNBC December 23, 2022 3:00pm-5:00pm PST
good evening and thank you for joining us for this special edition of "alex wagner tonight." we are coming up on the two-year anniversary of the january 6th attack and i think all of us at this point haveñ4÷r memories oft day seared into our1,ú@ minds w we were,j even after all this time has passed. almost all of us have those memories. ttu people have no memory of that day at all apparently. an expert of a deposition of one of donald trump's personal secretaries who worked just outside the oval office testifying to the january 6th committee. from their final aú i don't remember where i was that afternoon. do you remember being at the white house that afternoon, even if youá. exactly you were in the white house? no, i dodérip &h(lc% do you remember5m-6 being home,
wherever home is for you on the afternoon ofgh january 6th? as opposed to being a#v white house? no, i don't. so you don't remember whether you were at home or at the white house inwz/ the afternoon of january 6th, 2021? again, that day was very blurrye that is a footnotemh>7 from the p released final report the january 6th committee. it comes in a section about the number ãand ump allies employees who were less thanma forthcoming with the committee. some refused to comply with subpoenas. some of them invoked executive privilege. others claimed(xc? not to remem nearly anything fromu÷g one of most memorable days in recent american history.sh0s '
we will be pouring over those in the course of the— minutes to see'q■wqá more we ca learn?qé one recommendation is tos updat the law that governs how'n■r váz counted. basically, to try to prevent a? repeat of some of trcs■ schemes to overturn/a election. and as of today reform of that law is on itspó'p wayl biden's desk after the house approved it this afternoon.h9s
real change is happeninrh;u her. the committee reasserts there should be legal accountability for,hia some of the actions describeú■azr the report which was clear when the committee made separate charges recommending that the justice department prosecute former president trump.■ñ■fd if there is one thing that comes 1f there is one thing that comes and that reflects the waykqyvq january 6th investigation has, obviously, changed the way we understand the events of that day,an it is that there is nog spontaneous about the attack@rm the capitol thatx millions ofm"ç dollars werey transporting trump supporters to washington, d.c., that day. el vice president pence would be able to hand the election to donald trump, that was meticulously planned with legal
he suggested that2ñuhóg10,000 national guard troops should escort him and his supporters to theiz capitol. in and??íj appendix to the repoe committeesteu)e suggests one re for the delay in7d?tk sending i> national guard troops was that military leaders were deeply worried about trump using those guard members for his own end, repeatedlyoar suggested that troops should be there is also aefñ3-ak section report detailing how members of the proud boys staged an early attack on an entrance to the capitol which cleared the way for the mobcct to overrun the entrance. given all of this apparent
a specialkoo grand jury in fult county in georgia is expected to issue its final report within weeks, which attorney there will decide'ub c1 :z to seek indictments to anyone up and including donald trump for interfering=7q rz4ñ w 2020 election in georgia. what about the other states which they attempted to pull off the same scheme? the same scheme they tried in georgia. will any other d.a.spip or attorneys general pursue investigation. and the bigst@)d questionki themr÷ will thefd department of justice act on só criminal referrals from the january 6thaso committee and prosecute the 45th president of
the united states. donald trump. joining us now is mywe"7iwãcoll and host of "the beat with ari melber," ari melber,8sy÷ in addn to hisuá4ssy& orewadhñéd onó(cr the coup consy for the harper comeiam january 6th report. also the great barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney. thank you joining me and all of us on 4á÷ñx night when we see hw the committee[,x[ wrapsñs"i it a bow. ari, it's indicative of the way in which this investigation has the fact that you areze■zç aé÷+ co-author, a named author on a copy of the report that is being put out byoy$ harpercollins for public consumption. tell me, let's do7waz a little before, you know, how it th january 6thwi] committee. tuju did this work, change your expectation of what wasr possible?
>> it's a great question. that's how remember learning. thank you we have been traded shifts. thanks to brash for workingl'dm thanks to brash for workingl'dm because we are all holiday evening going into the weekend where regular people are consumed with that or doing holiday things with us in the background. i don't know how it wknow how i but it'shokv important stuff anp have been coveringorrdr■ p■!p conspiracy because i think the!p reckoning will matter. and we will see ultimately that. to reporting that we have done here ■■journalists to legal experts to what we have learned alongside the committee and write that@■aj■■f■d out. one the points i made in the piece, which is one of the additions, is that it's much broader than a single day. alex, if you look at the!■(h authorizing54 &■y saiding54 figure out what happened that day, prevent itvñ■u■ for nextñde
so even the democratic congress that began withmk/v■a critical now through their investigation and you follow the facts as we're told they have uncovered all that and reading through the report today i read it once with myw■5■ team, i think they have 5 to the details we have got it on the screen many of those different plots that are laid out. effective lm how manye were involved. bar is who should be indicted. they told usp■■■2■ now this wee■ donald trump the full report has other names. newt gingrich being put;,x]- ont ex play indicatei■■ot beenúqjú■- that doesn't mean that they say they stopped short of that.th they say he was along for the ride of the coup and trying help and trying to help overthrow democracy.er
that's bad for someone who, youo know, took an oath to uphold the constitution. the third thing is some of this or lawyers like don't we know what's next? but the publicú■kp■■account and think that really matters i know barbara and i are huge -- fans and i reached for one of@■■his simplet■ars, understood and got to be explai so let me explain. and i do feel in all seriousness, even though i am seri with the quote, those that are close tnkbz this feel, know it was an insurrection, we know trump knew he lied, we knew he was cavalier about putting his know all that. what's got to beow all explaine? what's got to beow all explaine? but ifétts you getq■p■a■higher legal bar of explainingbl■it to the doj, a criminal process or a jury, yes, it does need to b i think this report in a very real way advances that process.
>> barbara, i am not going to ask you for a not gucci main qu that explains what'sa gucc happ in the final report, but i am going to ask9igé you about a po at the end of that script, which is we "óé>knowfani,?á8d?á8d';wi fulton county d.a.lñl■subpoenaea rept z■think even newt gingrich may be one at leasto it seems like there is a real-yí case to bere■0y made that fraud committed at the state level givenjh we know about the trump campknow about the trump camp4■z■ andt/6b the trump white house outreach to state-level elections officials and the fake electors themselves!á >> right. i think it is seven states that had very similar experiences where the electors tr campaign and asked to sign their l7 these, you know, what we callsxçq the fake slates ofu
electors. they ■■m provisional ballot nonetheless, there is a in every one of these states similar to that of georgia that is being prosecuted in georgia is being prosecu?■d in georgia is being prosecu?■d in georgia in michigan i know ta■9■q attorney general did gather somu information about that and sent it to the justice department, thought it would be better handled at the larger level, conspiracy level than here that's not to say she won't take a single case, a sep on her own atop■2■some point each state is going to be different in terms of how much evidence there is and what evidenf4g■there. one5ç■x■of the things about wil case that made it seem stronger is the recordingozc< of donald p himself saying to brad raffensperger i need you to find me 11780 votes me 11780 votes we knoo■qq■number because that ki■■become so p. so&pw.■■think that makes her ca probably among the strongest but it is quite possible around the country in some of the these states there is nomé■)■reason not to. >> i want to followañf
because in this final report we are given additionalh■■vñ■detai about the way in which those in the trump white house who were overseeing the fake electors plot appeared to have some the trump team and the fake electors alsof■ of subterfuge to carrys notified the georgia pái for complete discretion. hecomp explvá required complete secrecy. i mean, if that's not someone who knows what they areg/k doins wrong, thend2r i don't know what is. >> yeah, the defense that have heard is that it was a provisional ballot. the same way you might go0 and f the poll workers say there is a problem with your ballot,rwkú y are in the wrong place, whatever it is, you are typically permitted to file a provisional rh%sqá. if you were a right, they count it. if you were wrong, they don't. t if you were wrong, they don't. t in the same way the fakeg
electors say this was a provisional ballot, signing my name here, if thath provisional ballot, signing my name here, if that ñ■ase, in fact, it's quite the it? if youñyh think there is@ irregularity in the@1 mange that known. i want to make sure everybody knows it so we can be on record this slate of electors is being sent over from georgia, whatever state it is. so iat think you are absolutely right to describe that as consciousness of guilt. the only reason tovéim conceal activity is if you think there is something wrong with it. >> could iethi jump in, alex? >> please. >> you make a good point. you sound like a prosecutor because you are bearing down on it. here's the thing. the repopfe has more examples o this, this so-called provisional defense could work for someone deceived, tricked, misled, - if a court changes something and they go along. that's no different than iszui take, you know, a beat mug here and i hand it to youu,w and say
would you please hold=udo this, you say, okay. and82mu i don't tell heroin inside.7ñj" you know who gets in trouble for that if the system works? i do. not you. in fairness to some of these trump fans, if they don't trespass the3dñ t capitol or stt and they were deceived into holding the cup, they may not be the easiest people to charge. there is inhd?fz thisle report overwhelming evidence thatmá? eastman, giuliani, boris epshteyn on the hookp+?f there,y were misleading people like barbara said. so i think it's an open question ultimatez$ç backstop for anythi regarding what is submitted toì% congress, hasn't acted on this. alex, i think this tees up, even if there is a7]aw week of holidg break, a tough real heated t january for the and merrick garland. can you seegk garland. can you seeg÷■this stuff are you goin- if not,-ó■v■why?
>>w■ay well, and you just rattl chesebro is another person that should be on the list. brought in for a surgical strik■ vis-a-vis the special electors you're talking about election'l fraud. and distribute documents intended in the trump fake elector ceremonies shared with contacts in arizona, georgia, u michigan, nevada, new hampshire, pennsylvania, wisconsin. he gave them step by step logistical guidance, whereyjatñg shouldzso,j4di convene, how man and send fake votes to congress by registered mail. pretty simple, he$1+r commented some of sneeze emails. i meanf when you explain5w2[q ■ that it's amazing it didn't work. ari, to youreú'gbsva point, you guess thej interpretation, if you have a , white house official so explicitly givinhá directions, it can't be illegal, right? is that the argument the defensr
team would make for the lekkers themselves? >> i dezkw if they didn't have 4 sufficient me intent that mightjfhs help them. again the plotters are what rs matters here. andlñ4ñ■ think you are right to hone in on, i agree cqh your analysis, alex, this is like fight club except it's coup club. what's the first rule of coupmy club? i bet you know. you don't talk about coup u coup club. why? ;n havecy requisite incriminating mental intent of aexotót?ñ coup. very different than87ing,hlo6 a, i think we actually(x', i'm so excited, what do you want to añ, especially in trump world. tweet it out, go on your friendly media. they were keeping this secret even in right wing circles. that'srldr incriminating.rl then something that hasn't gotten as much attention, and they document in the report, the end game was not to win over a court. they didn't have arguments to do that. not even a very conservative
leading appeals court let alone the supreme court. the end gamethe tv! was6y contested outcome, to use fraud claim they were doing slates of electors, if you wanted to use intimidationç. and violence to t them to go along aldll%2hsoj th documents -- and i say this seriously, alex, and try not to overstate because then where is the credibility? this was closer to working than i think people even realized today.ha!.íf >> indeed. i totally agree with you, ari. barsch, you know, one of the theories brought up repeated4uu if we are to believe the transcripts and emails in the final report is a lots of peop were reaching out to the trump white house effectively suggesting they pursue the independent state(vm legislatur theirry, run with this deeply conservative fringe, you know, legal theory that state legislatures didn't have7á.ú to' listen to state ski resorts and could do whatx vis-a-vis elections ip;vqfññ se
lekkersr['ó to be certified in congress. the supreme court is hearingrti that case. when i mç ■1mú)áñ spine, the idea that1wó■ is being contested in the highest court of the land. please tell me you don't think we are going down that road. >>9 this is what judge michael refers to as a clear and present danger. this is the theme of the letters that jeffrey clark drafted that he wanted to go out under the signature of the acting attorney general to georgia as a proof of concept. it was drafted. and it said based on ó.xr&yy irregularities we found at the o justice department you ought to convene injury legislature for the purpose of considering own slate ofq■?,y■electors and ■ out the ones cho that's a chilling idea in n
and jeffrey clark didn't come up with o a guy named ken was working for him and he was sent overf eastman.y?=ó&h(■% john eastman was, of course, the author of this plan. and so they were working through the justice department.■ó■ sor of legitimize what is, i think, on a legitimate -- an,p■aqdg illegitimate theory. if this theorydd were pursued,, would vote in our home states and then if the legislature the outcome they could find irregularities, throw out our votes and substitute their own. so in these states that -- where this was that went for joe biden where r there were republican majorities in the state legislatures suggesting they throw out the th votes of the voters and replace it with their own slate effectively stealing the election for!bl their favorite candidate. >> deep breath. stay;5x- calm. barbara mcquade, former-ív
attorney, ari melber. i am surprised you haven't made a coup%?5d wrap reference. >> like the coup from up california? california >> yeah. >> i feel like it's a pun on their name. it' the coup not only great artist, but they had a radical bent, as you know. >> yes, i:gtc do. it's a time form thank you both for being here. >> in defense of truth. >> asm¤ always, greasee you both. much more to com=ñt)v tonight a fell ofyoto< report and read through the;ñú transcripts that were just releasediy in the last few minus because it kz1ñ new reporting on how the january 6th -- did its work behind the scenes.-- did "new york times" reporter roberr draper this exclusiveéí;j acces the committee forusivb■ñ)t mont. this is riveting reporting. he will join us live next. stay with us.%cve reporting he will join us live next. p■ì(■c■l■tener.
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chao, the wife of mitch mcconnell. we will bring you any news as we find it. but today "the new york times" magazine published this behind-the-scenes expo sfwla by robert draper. it details how the january 6th committee was able to pull off an historic investigation in how the panel's nine members were able to present their findings to the public in a way that captured the magnitude of their discoveries. robert draper right now, before i lose my voice entirely. robert, can you talk to me about the role kevin mccarthy played in all of this? in terms of ultimately shaping the outcome? >> sure. no. i mean, the interesting question, alex, because i think that unwittingly kevin mccarthy really gave an advantage to the committee by making the decision after nancy pelosi pushed the veto button on two of his five picks to be on the committee,
jim jordan and jim banks, mccarthy responded petulantly by pull the or three. trump had no defenders on the committee and there was no kind of circus. there was no external fighting amongst committee members and allowed them, therefore, to set their own narrative to actually engage in a series of productions which the hearings very much were. without any kind of interference. and so mccarthy did the committee a favor, women i'm sure he didn't intend to do. >> the other -- i'm sure he didn't intend on that either. the other republican who shaped the outcome of this committee was liz cheney. you detail in exhaustive specificity the ways she at every turn steers this committee into a different place, beginning with, and not just as someone in television, a part that has been wildly
underreported, understanding the importance of the televised aspect to all of this. could you talk a little bit more about that? >> absolutely. yes, cheney was really the first person on the committee to recognize the necessity, not just, you know, the virtue, but the necessity of having high production values brought to this committee because in her view, cheney's view, failure simply wasn't an option with this committee. as a republican she knew that members of her own party were gunning for it, she new tens of millions of people wanted it to fail, there was a right-wing media ecosystem that would portray it as such. they wanted to reach as many viewers as pos be and that was why cheney was a proponent of the former abc news president and producer james gold sten coming over and actually doing the production of these. and they didn't always see eye to eye and she didn't see eye to eye with a lot of the other
folks on the committee. it was her view that it was important to lay out a case, to do it in a way -- in a way that was narratively dramatic and, thus, appealing to larger audience. >> and goldstein walks in and is like, where is the control room? members of congress are like, what control room? i mean, they are really starting from, like, scratch when it comes to this actual production project, if you will. can you describe the evolution of that and how they staffed it up? yeah. he was brought in at beginning of may, just one month before the committee was to begin its hearings. and this is a guy who is used to running a newsroom of a couple thousand people and was told by the committee staff, no, no, we actually don't have any staff for you but we don't think we'll need it. we are used to doing televised hearings. and he recognized along with cheney how important it was to do this in a way that would be
sophisticated and appeal to a wide viewership. so that meeting ended on a pessimistic note. but they got wind of his consternation and helped see to it that he got the production staff he wanted which watts still very shoestring and still with only one month to spare. i have to emphasize, alex, as seamless as these productions, these hearings appeared to be, they were always a photo finish. they required 20-hour days, stuff being rewritten at the very, very last minute, all sorts of glitches that we, ourselves, the viewers, didn't see. but, you know, there was a real don't try this at home kids qual toy to the entire production. >> certainly. i mean, the other way in way cheney was instrumental recruiting some of the most explosive witnesses brought before the committee and american public. first on that list is cassie hutchinson. it sounds like cheney
effectively brought cassidy to her office, hutchinson into like the inner sanctum, if you will, of the committee and walked her, if you will, to the witness seat, which is to say the public witness seat. can you talk a little bit more about that relationship and how meaningful it was to have the daughter of dick cheney be the one to convince you this was the right thing to do for american democracy? >> sure. yeah, you have to remember, alex, that for so many of these witnesses, overwhelmingly republican, i mean, only a couple were not republican, the idea of testifying before a democratic -- a predominantly democratic committee sounded like the kiss of death, like, you know, bringing on a world of hurt for them. liz cheney brought a level of comfort and familiarity, a common language to the proceedings when it came to people like arizona house speaker rusty bowers. i think particularly a lot of the women who were republican
women who wanted to testify. you mentioned cassidy hutchinson, who certainly, you know, first among equals when it comes to that. hutchinson was still had one foot in trump world, even though she and her boss, former white house chief of staff mark meadows had a falling out and was aware of what the likely repercussions would be if she were to say everything she knew. indeed, as the story makes clear and as readers also recognize, taking a look at the cassidy hutchinson depositions recent lie released, this was a work in progress. she had one attorney, passantino, and feld pained to be forth coming to the committee. it was only over a period of time as she developed both an increasing discomfort with her own legal team and an increasing comfort with cheney that she switched lawyers and then really began to tell all, and that was
in a particular deposition that immediately compelled cheney to talk to chairman bennie thompson and in turn to the other members and say we've got to have this young woman on in a stand alone hearing right away. >> and they didn't -- because of security concerns for cassidy hutchinson, they didn't tell other members what was happening until basically the 11th hour. is that right? >> that's exactly right. they literally were told, the members were, that, hey, we are about to have a -- we are going to have a special hearing. we need you all in washington in the next couple of days. when you do arrive, you are to report to the secure compartmented intelligence facility, the scif, a secure room to discuss classified information. literally three hours before the hearing was to begin, they were told, the other members were, that cassidy hutchinson had all this bombshell testimony, which they then gave excerpted
summaries of to the committee and the committee could then see noerm selves that indeed what she had to say was explosive. it still was not thoroughly agreed upon at that moment in time that hutchinson should bear the burden of telling all this explosive stuff without corroboration, but the die was pretty much cast so the rest is history. >> robert, one more question for you. we talk about liz cheney and her outsized role in all of this. you note that she maintained a captain ahab-like focus on donald trump as a singular threat to democracy. some of that focus made other committee members nervous because they weren't sure where her service to democracy began or ended and where her own political aspirations began. and i wonder if you have any insight into all that and how much of this is about, you know, capital "d" democracy and
someone who believed they should be the next nominee or challenge thump on the republican ticket. >> sure. the question was an obvious one both for other members and for staffers given the fact that liz cheney just a couple of months before she joined the committee had refused to rule out the possibility she, liz cheney, might run for president in 2024. it did beg the question to a lot of people, what are her motives now, my own view, and i think the facts bear this out, is that what cheney did in service to -- on the committee came at a very, very significant political cost. it's hard, frankly, for me to imagine just what a political pathway would be for her given all that's transpired. yes, there was concern at the time. i do think that, you know, and adam kinsinger is quoted it in a story, i interviewed him about this, look, i had frustrations with liz cheney but i also think that the committee would have
failed without her, that she far more than anyone else was responsible for the committee's success. >> i loved this reporting, robert. i love the part, like the little details about nancy pelosi's silently offering people chocolates and listening to what was going on, sort of the unspoke svengali behind this. it's at the perfect time. a new tranche of transcripts just came out in time for christmas. robert draper, thanks for your time and reporting. staff fright writher for "the new york times." thank you. >> thank you. okay. in just a minute live to capitol hill where our very own ryan nobles han been reading through the transcripts of the january 6th committee just released in the last hour. he is going to join us next to tell us what's in them. stay with us. tell us what's in them stay with us after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. stand up to your symptoms with rinvoq.
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because this is the season of breaking news, and that is that the january 6th committee has just in the past few minutes released transcripts from 46 witnesses in its investigation. the transcripts include names you will remember and recognize like trump attorney general bill barr, trump secretary of state
mike pompeo, trump transportation secretary wife of mitch mcconnell elaine chao, white house council pat cipollone and the president's own daughter ivanka trump. joining me now with more information is nbc's capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. i know there is hundreds of pages of transcripts that we just got. can you tell me anything about the selection of these names? the committee seems to be -- >> they are all done. i can tell you everything about them. [ laughter ] no. >> can you just -- no, no. and you are a speed reader. that's why you are the cop till hill correspondent. talk about how the committee, you know, how you are reading their selection of which transcripts to release and in what order. >> yeah, i don't think there is a real rhyme or reason to it other than that they are trying to get them out as fast as they
can and that we have2;g known f the beginning that there was a security protocol that they needed to go through before they released them. they are going through and redacting the names of people that they are concerned may be of some level of a security risk. they are, you know, eliminating any kind of personal identifying information that could lead to identity theft, something along those lines. so that's a process. it appears that once they've scrubbed the transcript with all that material, that they feel comfortable with, they release it. now, there did seem to be a bit of a theme with the first tranche of transcripts they released because that seemed to be everybody that just pled the fifth to every question. but that might also have been because those are easier to scrub because they didn't provide much information. of course, they released the cassidy hutchinson transcripts on their own. she was perhaps the most important witness. this tranche tonight is filled with, as you point out, some really significant and important names. the first one right at the top
of the list, pat cipollone, who turned out to be one of the most crucial witnesses over the course of this and someone it took quite some time to get in front of them. you mentioned william barr. what i'm most interested in and the ones that i'm going through first are the transcripts of which we did not see that much of these individuals over the course of the hearings. that doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't provide important information. it just didn't make it into the production that you were talking about with robert draper before you came to me. for instance, hope hicks. her transcript, that's the one i was reading before you came to me, they only showed a tiny bit of her transcript, and it was just in the last business meeting that they held a couple of days ago. so we never had seen any of that tryptophan prior to that. so that's one that's of interest. you mentioned mike pompeo. we didn't see much from him during the hearing. it would be interesting to see some of that. and then the other thing i'll
say about kind of my interest level in these transcripts and i'm sure others is that there is a lot of information that was potentially gleaned from these transcripts that doesn't necessarily have something specifically to do with the mandate of it this investigation. you know, what comes to mind is, for instance, and this has been reported by "the washington post" and others and i confirmed it, johnny mackinty, the former white house aide, one of the top advisors to the former president, testified that the congressman, meat matt gaetz asked for a pardon related to this child sex trafficking investigation he was a part of. that had nothing do with the investigation principally. they were asking about people that were looking for pardons related to the investigation, but that came out as a piece of information. so that's not something you see in the report but might be something that pops up in a transcript. that's the stuff i am looking for as the transcripts start to pour in. there is a lot that this committee uncovered.
not all of it could be fit in even an 800-page report, alex. >> you know, you thought would be a time for eggnog and mistletoe. nbc's capitol hill correspondent, ryan nobles, thank you for taking the time. up next, we have some legal analysis of these new transcripts, the ones that the january 6th committee just released in the last hour. stay with us. flu symptoms hit harder than the common cold. so it takes the right tool for the job... to keep it together. now there's new theraflu flu relief with a max strength fever fighting formula. the right tool for long lasting flu symptom relief. hot beats flu. ♪limu emu & doug♪ it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need.
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this is from the transcript of mike pompeo's interview of the january 6th committee. question, was there any discussion with secretary mnuchin about your resignation, yours or any cabinet members? answer, i don't remember. over the course of the day the president issued many statements. do you recall any statements that he made at the time? answer, i don't recall. question, did you reach out to any counterparts in other countries to convey any information or reassure them as the attack on the capitol was unfolding? answer, i don't recall. that was trump's secretary of state mike pompeo not recalling much but if you read the transcript for trump's daughter-in-law, daughter, adviser ivanka trump, you'll find those three words over and over again, i don't recall. same goes for conspiracy
theorists and sidney powell. she doesn't seem to recall anything either. yesterday we got the transcript for the committee's interview with one of their star witnesses, cassidy hutchinson. her originally funded trump lawyer said to be open with the committee. here was one particularly telling piece of advice. ben williamson generally said to me though that mr. meadows along be with ben said something to the effect of, i don't recall is a completely acceptable answer to give the committee on questions. the committee doesn't know what you can and can't recall. joining us once again is former u.s. attorney barb mcquaid. just don't leave me for the next year. i am trained because of that cassidy hutchinson transcript to
view i don't recall with a healthy amount of skepticism. the fact that mike pompeo can't remember any of the key events of january 6th including whether he was reaching out to international partners seems pretty farfetched. how do you read it? >> i think it's simply not plausible. i would guess if the justice department wants to question some of these same witnesses, they would read the transcripts and be push them on some of these areas where they don't remember. if he wants to invoke his fifth amendment, that's one thing but it seems incredible. it seems incredible now that we know that cassidy hutchinson has testified this was a strategy, the testimony doesn't know what you do or don't remember. i think you can use that. we know some witnesses got the advice to say you can't recall. tell us more about this.
probe each aspect. i wouldn't accept those answers if i was with the justice department. if you want the answers, one thing you can do is grant them immunity. >> barb, it's not just the i don't recall caucus that we got the trash of transcripts from. some people said inconvenient things about president trump including lawyer pat cipollone and former attorney general bill barr. of the ones released, which transcripts are you most interested in? >> i think those two you mentioned are incredibly important. pat cipollone, i was skimming through it. he does answer questions. he does provide information. he is in the inner circle. he is someone who is incredibly important. the other one is ken. he doesn't show up to the justice department until december of 2020. after his election and a few weeks before the administration is set to end. he is someone who knew john
eastman, now he starts working for jeffrey clark and he drafts a letter for proof of concept in georgia. he seems like the glue. >> we know what our holiday reading list is. barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney. appreciate your time tonight. when we come back, we have much more on the january 6th report. all 800 plus pages of it. and the new transcripts that are just out tonight. one thing we are learning more about in all of this is the role of the secret service and law enforcement on that day. we are going to get to all of this when we return. stay with us. unlike many other products, downy rinse & refresh doesn't cover odors or leave residues... it helps remove them. it's safe on all fabrics and gentle on skin -- just add to your fabric softener tray. downy rinse & refresh helps remove odors up to 3 times better than detergent alone, so fabrics look and smell clean. try new downy rinse & refresh. guaranteed or your money back.
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we are happy to have you here with us. we just got a new batch of transcripts from the january 6th investigation. boy oh, boy we have some important names in this batch. we're still going through them. our friend kyle cheney is over at politico. he read ivanka trump's transcript. she was called to help get her father more engaged. she talked to susan collins after the riot. the three had a discussion about trump putting out a statement supporting the peaceful transfer of power. h'm, again, we are still going through these. we're going to let you know when we know more. these are important facts that are coming out after the january 6th investigation last night released its much anticipated final report, a whopping 845 page document outlining many ways president trump and his many allies conspired to
overturn the results of the 2020 election. trump wanted to overturn the results despite knowing within days of the election that he had lost. that's in the report. in the days after the election the president's own campaign team told him he had lost and there was no evidence of significant fraud. trump didn't listen and instead he executed on a plan. he and his team are going to deny he lost and instead say the election was stolen. former white house aide cassidy hutchinson told the committee that at the helm of that effort was her boss, former chief of staff mark meadows, who was under constant pressure from trump to figure something out. this is what she testified. mark was just kind of trying to tell trump, well, sir, like we have other options. we're still looking at other things. don't worry. like we're going to figure this out. the this here had -- and the president said, i don't want people to know we lost, mark. this is embarrassing. figure it out. we need to figure it out. i don't want people to know that
we lost. even after the election was certified on january 6th trump still didn't want people to know he had lost. the committee has video of the former president saying that on january 7th as he was rehearsing a speech condemning the previous day's attack. >> i don't want to say the election was lost, i want to say congress has certified the result without saying the election is over, okay? >> this is a big lie at play, one that included outlandish theories about fake balance rots and dead voters. each and every one of those instances trump and his team knew there was nothing to these ideas, nothing but fraud. here's an example of that between a conversation between mark meadows and eric hirschman on december 3rd which was well before the storming of the capitol. quote, hirschman, just an fyi, former trump campaign lawyer alex cannon and his team
identified the 10,000 supposed dead people voting in georgia isn't accurate. i didn't hear that. i think i found 22 if i remember correctly. two of them died just days before the general election. hirschman, it was alleged in rudy giuliani's hearing today. your number is much closer to what we can prove. i think it's 12. meadows, my son found 12 obituaries and 6 other possibles. >> hirschman, that sounds more like it. maybe he can help rudy find the other 10,000? meadows, lol. when the claims of dead voters didn't pan out trump elevated theories about dominion voting machines. that came from sidney powell. they said the software was created in venezuela for hugo chavez. when powell told trump about the conspiracy theory trump laughed literally. while she was speaking the
president muted his speaker phone and laughed at powell telling the others in the room, this does sound crazy, doesn't it? a few dlatser the trump campaign claimed powell was not part of the trump campaign's legal team but the lie, the lie itself, that's a lie. the committee said trump tweeted and retweeted 30 false claims about the dominion machines. he did the same about every other crazy theory that was thrown at him with devastating consequences. the january 6th report says all of these lies motivated trump supporters to attack the capitol. if there is someone to blame that man is quite clearly former president donald j. trump. joining me again is ryan nobles. ryan, good to see you. thank you for being here tonight, my friend. can you -- we have a lot going on here. as we talk about the transcripts and the final report, can you tell us whether -- what the relationship is as it stands
right now between the material, the evidence that the committee has applied that it has gathered over the last several months and the doj and whether the doj -- whether everyone is working, you know, with parallel work output, whether the sort of biggest names with the most bombshell testimonies have gone to the doj? do you have evidence that everybody is rowing in the same direction at this point? >> reporter: it's a great question, alex. i don't think there's any doubt that where the relationship between the committee and the department of justice is now is much different than it was, say, over the summer, you know? bennie thompson in a lengthy interview with our colleague simone sanders townsend said they have basically created an open door policy to the department of justice. they can have open access. now they're releasing all of these transcripts to all of us, not just the department of justice. and it came after a letter that was sent by the new special counsel jack smith to the
committee asking for that evidence and thompson now since the investigation -- their investigation is wrapped up willingly handing that over. it was much different over the summer where the department of justice wanted this information and bennie thompson was reluctant to give it to them because the work product was not yet complete. now in terms of how many of these department of justice -- how many of these witnesses that appear before the committee appear before the department of justice, there's still way more people that have talked to the committee than have talked to the department of justice. they're obviously not as forthcoming about who they have talked to at this point but that is starting to pick up. that is another thing thompson has said. they have had so many more conversations and they've to a certain extent created a roadmap for the department of justice to follow. it may not end up in the same exact space as the committee did. there's no doubt the work the committee has already put in is going to make the job of the justice department that much easier as they try to figure out
if a crime was committed here and whether or not it's prosecutable. >> ryan, just to be clear here, the committee gave the doj a lot of these transcripts earlier in the month of december, is that right? or are they getting some on the 23rd of december just like we all are? >> that's not exactly clear. the way bennie thompson described it, if they ask for something, we're going to give it to them. so it's not like they handed over the entire tranche of transcripts. it's not just transcripts, it's the video of the depositions, emails, documents, that is all theoretically something the department of justice might have access to. it's not as though the department of justice has all of the information. can we have this? yes, you can. here's how you get it. eventually you would have to think by the end of the month that information will all be handed over to not just the department of justice but that we'll all get to see it.
>> and d.c.'s capitol hill correspondent, ryan nobles, thank you. >> thank you. to break down what this means is joyce vance. joyce, it's great to see you. i know you are diligently doing your homework that was just assigned at the top of the last hour, which is this tranche of transcripts featuring some of the most prominent names from trump world. those persons we've been discussing the testimony of including bill bar, pat cipollone, ivanka trump, new names, hope hicks. have you reviewed anything? and what can you tell us about what you have? >> well, i'll tell you, alex, where i started is with ken cluekowski. he's a lawyer who went to the justice department with under a month left in the trump administration. that's pretty unusual.
he attached himself to the staff of jeffrey clark. jeffrey clark was the head of the environment and natural resources division who ultimately became this wannabe attorney general. wanted to perpetuate the big lie for trump if he could have the job. what's never really made sense about jeffrey clark and his rise to prominence, he's not an election lawyer. he has no prior experience but he's crafted this -- i'm he not going to say not within the confines of the law but technically very succinctly crafted plan that the states could use to upset elections and return victory for trump. how that came out of jeffrey clark's mind was difficult to understand until you saw that ken had gone on to his desk. he has experience and written a very lengthy treatise.
the question is what does he have to say? will he talk about how this full relationship played into perpetuation of the big lie. >> joits, help me to understand something. in some of these transcripts we gain an understanding that john eastman himself at points indicated his strategy regarding pence and fake electors was not going to hold up in a court of law. yes, but trump heard about this. once he gets something stuck in his head, it's hard to convince him otherwise. i'm paraphrasing. that's the essence of it, right? there's a consciousness of guilt, if you will. how do you convince the younger lawyers to come in and perform a surgical strike at the end of december after the election has been called for joe biden to do something that even the mastermind behind it will reluctantly but still admit is not within the bounds of the law? i mean, do they -- did they imagine they would get disbarred or worse, do you think?
>> so it's hard to know what was going on in the minds of the lawyers but certainly they had to know they were flirting with danger. trump becomes very disenchanted with the good lawyers, with other campaign people because they're insisting the big lie is just that, the big lie. trump at some point disassociates himself with those people and brings on rudy giuliani's team of lawyers and that, according to the report, includes some people who, you know, are younger than giuliani but not young lawyers. people like sidney powell and cleda mitchell who have been partners at significant law firms and know what they are doing. that's to say they knew of the weaknesses and legalities of these places. there is a point recited in the report where mike li is talking with cleta mitchell. senator mike li, conservative
senator, he has the opinion, this could be the end of the republic. this dock the end of democracy to use this scheme. it was well taken. >> i'm also struck by this mark meadows testimony by way of cassidy hutchinson and this mark meadows quote where effectively meadows is like seriously paddling upstream to find a way to turn the election for trump after the fact, you know? well, sir, we have other options. we're still looking at other things. don't worry, we're going to figure this out. the amount of pressure that mark meadows felt he was under to do what is the most antidemocratic thing one can do, subvert a free and fair election. at the whim of donald trump, it brings to mind the sort of intimidation that you see in a crime syndicate. did you -- what is there to that by way of trump's role and
trump's intent in all of this as evidenced by the behaviors of his underling? >> right. the way that they operate is very much reminiscent of organized crime activity where everyone is loyal to the leader, everyone's interests are subservient to the leader. while you can't prove trump's intent by looking at what meadows was doing, meadows certainly would be able to shed light on trump's intent? one of the real problems they have faced is the fact that people who spoke directly with trump. it's behind executive privilege and they couldn't talk about what trump said and how they responded to him. there's some discussion about how that broke in the justice department's grand jury and people like the former white house counsel, cipollone, his is
included in this batch has now been willing to testify beyond what they were previously willing to discuss. >> and, indeed, we know from robert draper's reporting that cipollone was almost ready to do public testimony. cassidy hutchinson has led the way. we'll see if they are ready to tell everyone, the important people, people that matter, should i say, what happened in and around the white house. ment the great joyce vance. thanks for your time tonight. >> thanks, alex. up next here tonight, we have new insight from the committee report into one of the biggest outstanding questions about that day. why didn't the secret service do more to appoint someone.
plus, we'll talk about members of congress who voted to release donald trump's taxes. congresswoman judy chu joins us. that's next. stay with us. ext. stay with us i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. (woman) oh. oh! hi there. you're jonathan, right? the 995 plan! go to getrefunds.com to get started. yes, from colonial penn. your 995 plan fits my budget just right. excuse me? aren't you jonathan from tv, that 995 plan? yes, from colonial penn. i love your lifetime rate lock. that's what sold me. she thinks you're jonathan, with the 995 plan. -are you? -yes, from colonial penn.
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the capitol as early as two weeks prior and that those tips went nowhere. the first tip on december 24th was a compilation of social media reports. one of them urged protestors march into the chambers. another referring to december trump's december 19th we'll be wild wrote trump can't exactly openly tell you to revolt so the december 19th post was the closest he'll ever get. another understood the president's tweet to be urging his supporters to come to washington armed. others were to the same effect. there is not enough cops in d.c. to stop what's coming. make sure they know who to fear. and waiting for trump to say the word. another tip mentioned proud boys detailing plans of having a large enough group to march into d.c. armed. their plan is to literally kill
people. please, please take this tip seriously and investigate further. the secret service was warned not only about trump's deadly violence. if they were ever conveyed to tony ornoto, we do not know. when the committee asked, he could not remember. committee staff, do you remember talking to chief of staff meadows about any of your concerns about the threat landscape going into january 6th? ornato, i don't recall. however, in my position i would have made sure he was tracking the daily brief. so he was most likely getting all of this in their daily brief as well? i wouldn't know what was coming in the daily brief. if he gave me a yeah, i don't recall it today, but i'm sure that was something that took
place. the committee also notes that despite intimidation from cassidy hutchinson. ornato said he could not recall that conversation and had no knowledge of the president's anger. these incidents led the committee to issue this pretty damning assessment. they found multiple parts of ornato's testimony questionable and when you add to that the details from cassidy hutchinson. the head of trump's secret service detail, bought him and what you get there is a picture of an agency that appeared very cozy with the former administration even while neglecting one of its most basic
jobs. thank you for being here tonight? are we reading into the intimacy, being invited into the inner sanctum of the white house paired with the recalcitrant and is that a fair assessment? >> i don't think we're over reading it. when you have a senior law enforcement official like anthony ornato leaves the agency to become a political appointee in the house. and then for him to return to the secret service after serving in that position, it raises appropriate questions about what he was doing and to what extent he had any role with regard to
the detective missions of the secret service. when you combine that about whether or not he was being forthright with his testimony, will they refresh and there are a lot of questions about what's going on. looking through the report, looking through the government preparedness. there are a lot of questions i don't think the committee was able to get to the bottom of. >> it seems impossible to believe that tony ornato wouldn't remember whether he briefed mark meadows on the security threats that were very clear at that point. i mean, i just -- as a security -- as someone whose job is to make sure that the event goes off as planned, the basic one, two, three.
do you find that plausible? >> no. when you compare that with cassidy hutchinson where she is giving extraordinarily compelling stories of the fight in the limo where he's trying to go up to the capitol and his detail is bringing him back to the white house. there's no idea, cassidy hutchinson is enormously compelling and a truthful video, anybody who heard that story, heard that recounted would not remember very specific details. one of the most chilling things was trump's concern that the crowd wasn't going to be through it.
the law around d.c. is very, very clear. having concealed weapons is absolutely illegal. trump said according to hutchinson, they're not here to hurt me. let them in. if trump is aware of it, if the secret service is aware of it, trump was clear they were not there to hurt him. if they have weapons, convey that warning to others. >> well, and i think we know pretty clearly based on the noose erected on the capitol grounds and hang mike pence, one of the people they wanted to hurt was mike pence. talk to me a little bit about the sort of order of operations. if trump detail knew that there was an insurrection on the
horizon, to what degree, what responsibility is there to become a vice president detail. very much in the dark and at one point i told them i had to get them off, the premises, because they could not protect him in the current situation. >> that's right. if you recall as well, some of the testimony of the vice president wasn't comfortable getting into the vehicle. i know you and i trust you but i don't know who else is on the detail and who's driving the car. the role with the secret service is protecting the president, the vice president. all of the law enforcement with the plots and plans that went on for weeks or months. it's a fair question to ask. what about the fbi, the
department of homeland security, all of these -- which are at -- some have been found guilty. where were the federal law enforcement agencies. there was a lot of conversation there were these plots at play that were being developed. a lot of questions if you go to appendix 1. in my reading, they're not allowed to have a better understanding of what was coming. >> peter, great to hear from you tonight. thanks for your time. >> thanks. up next here tonight, other big blow to donald trump this week, the vote to release his taxes to the public. the taxes still aren't out but the night is young. we already know some of the
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that i could be the first black woman from the same district that sent the first black man to congress over 130 years ago just particularly warms my heart. >> i wonder if you look at this in the same way that i do. i don't think the events -- quoting myself, but january 6th and january 5th were not unlinked january 5th was the day georgia sent raphael warnock and jon ossoff to the senate the next day there was a violent attack on that capitol i'm not saying it was a direct correlation.
elected, that i went to look a my father's bible. we were coming up on the end o his passing, and he was on m mind in that bible i find a copy of the poll tax, who received, he had to pay when he first registered to vote in tennessee, in the 40s i thought to myself, this is poetic justice i wish she was here to see it. of course, the next day, the violent backlash it is john langston, and those black men who are elected to congress, and in the 1870s they also face a violent backlash, and voter suppression. it is a cycle that repeats
itself, but it is a cycle that i think, finally, will b broken as we move forward. >> the election denier, th trump back, early on benjamin, and it is refusing to debate him. i'm wondering if you will take the same position. what is the best way to push back on fraudulent claims? on misinformation? online is that activel undermine democracy? >> first of all, he has no conceded that he lost th election in 2022, or i think even in 2020 i take the same position until he concedes he lost thos elections, i see no point in debating him they have already shown that h is going to lie, and not t discuss the truth. i will talk to the voters of the fourth district directly and talk about my extensiv record, representing them in the general assembly my extensive record in the
community, in this district, which i was born in. it will be 50 years last week. it is directly connected t them, and i think my views, my beliefs, are more in line with those of the voter of this district and his >> you know, we are in thi moment where we greatly debate who gets to tell the america story. your family, very much, is the american story your family having to pay poll tax now, his daughter maybe th first black woman elected to represent the state of virgini in the house o representatives. as much as we focus on the negatives, is an extraordinary thing. it is an extraordinary thing worth pointing off, an jennifer mcclellan is runnin as a democratic candidate fo virginia's fourth congressiona district the race is not over yet, bu we will be watching very, very closely. it is their on their closing days senator mcclellan, thank you s much >> thank you, and thank you fo
having me. >> we have been pouring throug that is pushed by the januar 6th committee. what we found it is mike short which is watching the meetin through the vice president secret sercevi detail the da before january 6th that is next, stay with us to keep it together. now there's new theraflu flu relief with a max strength fever fighting formula. the right tool for long lasting flu symptom relief. hot beats flu. ♪♪ over the last 100 years, lincoln's witnessed a good bit of history. even made some themselves. makes you wonder... what will they do for an encore? ♪♪
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through the transcripts, released by the january 6t committee today, including the deposition of mike pence's chief of staff, marc short the committee, asking shor about a meeting he called, the day before january 6th, with the head of pence's secret service detail, tim gables, to warn him that president trum would likely be mad, and tha could have an effect on pence' safety here's marc short. i would ask him to come to m office, my smaller office, i the west wing. i said to him, i would expec the president to express those disagreements publicly, and to ensure that his team, gables team, was aware of that. question, and would that have potential impact on security or threats the kinds of things that ancient cables needed to b aware of >> sure. i don't know, but i think it would be my job if it was a jo to make sure it was concerne with him on january 5th, and informed him of at least that concern to ensure he was prepared fo any potential activities tha that could trigger
i cannot sit here and tell you in any way, that i would'v anticipated an attack on the capital, or could foresee that but it would be in the bes interest of the head of th vice president security detail to be aware, the disagreements between the two will becom public, yes, yes question, and it is importan that the secret service know that, because the disagreement that would go public may hav an impact on the vic presidents, and othe securities is that fair to say? >> short my concern was for the vic president security i wanted to make sure that the vice president secret servic was aware, likely, as thes disagreements became mor public, that the president, as in trump, would lash out i some way it is gripping reading, and as a reminder of the trul unprecedented nature of th events, leading up to, and including, january 6th that does it for us for now. happy holidays to all of you now, it is time for a special, early addition, of the 11t hour, with stephan r