>> do you think the shooting will change the community? >> i think it has already. we don't want this to be sort of what monterey park is known for. it's so much more. it's so much more than a city that's been marked by a mass shooting. >> love is the one thing that can always defeat it. and we are sending our love and thoughts and prayers to the victims families, and the entire monterey park community tonight. and on that note, i wish you all a very good and safe night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of mbs -- nbc news, thanks for staying up late with us. i will see you at the end of tomorrow.

>> we can see there is a major difference in the leadership with governor mccarthy as speaker of the house, and nancy pelosi as speaker. >> how kevin mccarthy's ironclad bond with maga extremists was born? tonight, new reporting on how the speaker became bffs with marjorie taylor greene, and what it means for the rest of us. then -- >> as folks know, i have declared, formally declared my independents from what i consider to be deeply broken two party system. >> what ruben gallego's campaign announcement means for the senator from arizona? plus, two years after a failed coup in washington, the unbelievable story of a so-called callous coup, in a small kansas town. >> i mention that we will move the gentleman as mayor, and

effective immediately, we have a new mayor election. >> and on the 50th anniversary of the roe v. wade, the decision that just overturned, new reporting on right-wing supreme court that is coming apart at the scenes. when all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening from new york. i am chris hayes. today, for more members of the far-right extremist group, the oath keepers, were convicted of seditious conspiracy for their role and donald trump's coup. on january 6th, 2021, three of them and entered the capital building with tactical gear, while the fourth headed up a so-called quick reaction force at a northern virginia hotel, standing, waiting to transport a cache of weapons into washington, d. c.. these men joined the theater of the oath keepers, elmer stewart rhodes the third, and the top deputy, and who were both convicted of the same very rare charge last year. the numbers we've noted on the show, seditious conspiracy, first conspiring to overthrow or, quote, destroy by force the government of the united states,

and obtaining convictions for it can be quite difficult. also today, a jury delivered with a guilty verdict, against one of the most memorable insurrectionists, the arkansas man, who infamously put his feet up on then speaker nancy pelosi's desk, left her a crude note, and stole an envelope from her office, 62 year old richard barnett was convicted of eight federal crimes, including for felonies. two years on, the capital certainly looks a lot different than it did that day. and the 118 congress is now being run by, we'll, allies of the ex president. the man who directed that mob to storm the capital. we have noticed an interesting pairing of the new speaker, kevin mccarthy, and georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. this duo has been spending a lot of time together, since the very first day of this congress, when we saw congresswoman greene acting as one of mccarthy's lieutenants, mostly unsuccessfully whipping votes. marjorie taylor greene has been

trying to rebrand herself, after being known as a qanon supporter, who regularly spread conspiracy theories. she's suggested the parkland school shooting was a false flag, even harassing a teenager who survived the massacre, stalking him on the sidewalk. greene has made racist, antisemitic, anti-muslim remarks. she spoke at a conference led by that white supremacist, the one that donald trump and kanye had dental dinner with, she's used violent rhetoric, repeatedly making comments about exxon democratic politicians, including nancy pelosi. >> she is a traitor to our country. she is guilty of treason. what she doesn't do enough to protect american citizens and uphold our laws. and she gives aid and comfort to our enemies who illegally invade our land. that is what treason is. and by our law, representatives and senators can be kicked out and no longer serve and our government. and it's a crime punishable by death is what treason is.

pelosi is guilty of treason, and we want her out. >> it's a crime punishable by death. nancy pelosi is guilty of treason. marjorie taylor greene no longer wants to be known as the person who did and said all that. rather, a member of the good standing new republican house majority. and guess what? kevin mccarthy is helping her with that. the new york times has extensively reported about the ironclad bond mccarthy has developed with greene, and unlikely ally in his battle for political survival. they described as a relationship borne of political expediency, but fueled by genuine crime audrey. in an interview, mccarthy described what he liked so much about his colleague, saying quote, if you're gonna be in a

fight, you want marjorie in your foxhole. when she fix picks a, fight she's gonna fight it until it's over. she reminds me of my friends from my high school, but we're gonna stick together all the way through. it's interesting, marjorie taylor greene boasted about the fact that he planned january six, they would have been armed, and it would have been successful. mccarthy has also told allies that he was impressed that the congresswoman quickly became known by her initials, quote, she knows what she's doing. you've got aoc and mtg. for her, mtg has taken on and outside role as a policy adviser, and that phrase really left me scratching my head, i gotta. say the times report adding that mccarthy has little in the way of a fixed ideology of his own. it's come to regard the georgia congresswoman as a vital proxy for the desires and demands of

the right-wing base that increasingly crystallizes his party. now, according to this reporting, mccarthy decided to form the alliance with marjorie taylor greene, after looking at the last two republican speakers, john boehner and paul ryan. mccarthy believes they made a mistake by not reaching out to the far-right members of their caucus. this makes a certain kind of sense, i have to say. if you are kevin mccarthy, and your goal is to survive at least two years as speaker, the reason history does suggest that if you do not at least appease the most radical members of your party, your tenure will be short-lived. in fact, even if you do appease them, it is still likely short-lived. it was true for boehner, and it was true for ryan. so, mccarthy is trying to save himself. he's thrown in with the far-right, basically handing them the keys to the whole palace, during that week of failed votes for speaker.

and now, people like marjorie taylor greene, essentially, run the house republican caucus. as the new york times reported, they fear kevin mccarthy's record on the interview does. and that includes people like paul gosar, who posted animated video, depicting him killing a fellow number of congress, alexandra ocasio-cortez. and andy biggs who helps donald trump to try to overturn the 2020 election. and matt gaetz, who brought a holocaust in higher in his address. these are not popular political figures outside of their own deep red district and echo chambers, sometimes even -- donald trump. all three of them lost. the study found lake lost 35% of voters who most otherwise mostly voted republicans. masters lost more than 6%. finchem, about 8%. that is an enormous, enormous electoral penalty, as sort of maga attacks on these candidates. in a closely divided state, is not a resume for political success.

and, of course, the supplies and the house, too, sure, people in the districts like marjorie taylor greene paul gosar, andy biggs, matt gaetz, they don't have to worry. but there are 18 republicans representing districts that joe biden won in 2020. and that includes george santos, new york's third district, good luck on that one. and then all 18 of these districts associating that brutality of the republican brand with, well, marjorie taylor greene, the one who's calling for treason charges and stalking david hogg, you know, probably not going to be a big hit. we are already seeing the actual substantive policy concessions that kevin mccarthy made in the far-right. among the very first votes, this new house majority brought up two antiabortion messaging votes, and just remind everyone, this is a party that successfully attacked woman's bodily autonomy, and is looking to criminalize abortion across the country. they have already had table plans to bring up an extremely harsh border security bill,

after some moderate members blocked the possibility of outright banning migrants from seeking asylum in the u.s.. and now, cued up, and it appears to be part of the deal, it's one of the many deals kevin mccarthy made to get the speakership. it's a bill to come to the floor, and that would abolish the irs and income tax, and replace it with a 30% national sales tax. that's the conservative wall street journal opinion page saying, please, don't do this. and they are right to say that. think about that for a second. but republicans take power. they get to control the house, and one of their first big votes is holding a vote on instituting a across the board, 30% national sales tax on all goods and services. like, the price you pay would immediately be 30% higher, broccoli, big macs, furniture. a widely terrible idea! you know, a ludicrous leap terrible politics. but honestly, i'm not sure kevin mccarthy cares that much. that dude is living day-to-day right now, politically speaking. he's made it the three weeks as speaker! i mean, there's a lot of people

who have to be under on that, i guess that's a success. he doesn't seem to have a particularly good long term strategy, i gotta say. congressman ro khanna is a democrat of california who serves on the oversight committee. tim miller we, a writer at large for the the bulwark, and a former commissions director for jeb bush, and both join me now. congressman khanna, let me start with you on the substance of this, particularly this proposal, buddy carter, the georgia politician, if i'm not mistaken, he wants to completely defund and abolish the irs, give everyone a 30% national sales tax. apparently, it was an agreement between kevin mccarthy, and if he gets a floor vote on this, are democrats shaking to their boots at fear of having to vote on this bill? >> chris, i can't believe what they're doing. after winning the midterms, and say that the price of eggs are too much, and the price of bacon is too much, the price of gas is too much, the first thing they want to do is

increase those prices by 30%. they want to have a tax raise for the working class. and we know that working class and middle class americans are the ones who buy things. the rich, they are in the stocks and bonds. and so, the democrats are saying, let's tax wealth. that's president biden. and they're saying, no, let's tax the working in middle class. >> you know, tim, it's interesting. i've been watching parts of the sort of, i guess, what's left of that intelligence, and the american law right, trying to throw the bricks on this idea, like the wall street journal opinion page, and the national ap are being like, guys, it's not a good idea. but it speaks of the fact like, kevin mccarthy made these bargains, and these deals, to get these people, to get himself speaker, and he's gonna have to pay up. >> oh, he definitely is. and look, this kevin mccarthy, marjorie taylor greene marriage is the most prime example of what i call the new maga establishment. like, we spend all this time talking about, oh, there's these internal fissures in the party, and the fights between the tea party, you know, the maga crazies, and the moderate government wing that exist.

but that is, you know, while those little figures still come up from time to time, and all these disagreements all the things like ukraine within the caucus, like really what is formed is this merger, right? merger with maga trumpism, that you have an established figure like kevin mccarthy and marjorie taylor greene working together, and they're going to win -- generally speaking, trying to pass some of these, you know, pro corporate, you know, kind of tax cut types of things that the wall street journal's gonna like from time to time. but then, they're also gonna have to focus on these hot button culture issues, no matter where it is, the talks are from random members, or from the bottom up. and the wall street journal doesn't like that because the thing is, the wall street, they're not part of this new maga establishment, right? like, that's yesterday's man. and, so that is really what's happening here. mccarthy now is completely involved into the maga side, as

long as he temps things down, just a little bit, like just enough to make it feel like comfortable that you can stay on and win. >> although, there is also the guts of this, and i want to ask you this, congressman khanna, because today they announced the rules committee. the rules committee is a wave of majority, and the speaker particularly will's power. and there was a lot of talk to those failed votes, that there have been committee slash promise to the most far-right members of the caucus on rules, which is a huge deal, right? it's a fulcrum of power. today, we got news that he is likely to name the following lawmakers house rules committee, nick langworthy, ralph norman, thomas massie, chip roy, and aaron who can. now, massie and ralph norman are all pretty hard-core right,

and massie is kind of around paul figure. sometimes, he's voting completely by himself. roy and norman were part of the, you know, kind of the opposition to kevin mccarthy. how significant to have these people serving on that committee? >> chris, here is why this matters, and it's not some insider baseball thing. these three people basically now have veto power on any bill that comes to the floor of the house. so, you know how extreme things are, what donald trump is worried that these far-right folks may cut social security. donald trump is saying, please, don't cut social security, please don't ban abortion in all cases. but these folks are further to the right than him, and any deal that mccarthy does on debt ceiling or anything else,

they're gonna have a veto over. and really, they are running the house. >> yeah, i also got a wonder -- i mean, i did think the news about them pulling this plan for a border bill was a little interesting, tim, because i mean, again, leverages there, if you exercise it. if you are the 18 members in those biden districts, it is a narrow majority. if you could know i -- mean, this is organizing 101. like, you've got the numbers, if you can organize, you can have some leverage, too, that doesn't have, you, know mccarthy and marjorie taylor greene, like, hammering together the barrel to send you over the waterfall. >> yeah, for sure, one thing about this rules committee, ralph norman was the guy that was distinct mark meadows, calling for marcia law. so, this is a guy, extreme right, i mean, this was advocating for a coup. the immigration -- [inaudible] [inaudible] --

they did marshal awe to chief of staff meadows. to me, we have this conviction, foreman was the oath keepers for seditious conspiracy. very very rare crime to be charged in the u.s.. people aren't trying to recruit government that much. where to get a conviction, it's difficult, because first amendment protections really mean something. they should meet something for defendants. celina protected political speech matter how odious. you've got convictions here, you've got hundreds who were at an active investigation it's wild thing about going to work every day now with the hands of this house in the hands of people like ralph norman. in secret, behind the scenes, wasn't performing folks. he wanted there to be martial law and the united states of america. >> you know it's bad when mick mulvaney was opposed to ralph norman succeeding mcconney, former chief of staff donald trump. but here's what i don't get. there's one lesson in the midterms.

that the american people don't want crazy. they don't election deniers. they wanted selection us. they basically handed the keys to the people most responsible for the election denial, and insurrection. >> congressman ro khanna, and to miller, thank you gentlemen both we appreciate it. >> coming up, independent arizona senator kyrsten sinema wonders whether to officially have a child from the left. look at the reports, and risks, congressman reuben diagnose senate bid next. senate bid next. that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. i gotta go, ah. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage, go with the general.

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people that are hearing this. that's my family. i will be challenging kyrsten sinema for the united states senate, and i need all of your support. >> [applause] >> after teasing a potentially one for months, democratic congressman ruben gallego of arizona, formerly, formally announced his campaign for senate today. so far, gallego is the only democrat for the 2024 race, but it is widely expected that incumbent senator, kyrsten sinema, former democrat who recently became an independent, will also run for reelection next year. this puts the democratic party in a difficult position because on the one hand, senator sinema caucuses with the party, and was crucial in securing its senate majority on the other hand, she has spent her tenure in the senate, particularly recently gleefully stymied men over former party's biggest priorities. sinema, along with democrat joe

manchin of west virginia, and it any hope of filibuster reform, who have prevented democrats from pursuing what president biden's most ambitious agenda, by requiring the support of ten republicans for most legislation. sinema also dramatically weakened the initial biden proposal, which was basically shared by all democrats to allow medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices. it was extremely popular with just about everyone except rich pharmaceutical executives. she killed another effort to close the carried interest loophole which serves wealthy hedge fund managers to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. the most infamous of her actions are probably this moment when she delivered a theatrical thumbs down on the senate floor, against the proposal for a 15 dollar minimum wage. now, at first glance, senator sinema's approach is a big baffling. i mean, it's one thing, for instance, if joe manchin supports burning coal, and you know, extending coal companies, i think it's terrible policy, destroying our planet, but it makes some sense, politically. i mean, he represents a very conservative state.

that is dominated by coal interests for years. but she put prescription drugs, taxing wall street, raising the minimum wage, those are all very popular proposals, even in a swing state like arizona. and democrats can be pretty popular in that state, too, they just won all the statewide election, and the junior senator from arizona, mark kelly, he's been a party like democrat. he just won reelection by five points back in november. so, there doesn't seem to be an editorial pressure behind senator sinema's voting record. i think, honestly, just generally, it reflects her political beliefs. despite starting her political career as a lefty, and a green party anti-war act, this, miss sinema seems ideologically committed to a theory of politics that franchises centrism and protects corporate interests at all costs. and perhaps it is our sincere belief in such a deeply unpopular political project that keeps her from ever really engaging with her constituents any meaningful way. sinema rarely holds town halls and arizona she refuses most requests for mediator views. that is frankly pretty unusual

for a sitting senator. here's another example of someone who does it differently. republican senator chuck grassley of iowa currently serving his eighth term, the 89 year old notorious for frequently meeting with and taking questions from constituents. though he immediately skipped over the major democratic areas of the state. or take senator chris murphy, chris murphy, who walks across the entire states, speaking with voters along the way every single year. and voters know where to find georgia senator raphael warnock, who presides over most sunday services at atlanta's ebenezer baptist church where he remained senior pastor, this same hole as martin luther king junior. by contrast, senator sinema barely speaks with arizona voters. just last week, she appeared in a panel with other lawmakers, and the world economic forum and davos, switzerland, for a meeting with the world's richest oligarchs. sinema even shared a high five with joe manchin over the refusal to support filibuster reform. and she justified her support

for the filibuster by bragging and stopping democrats from passing legislation to and voter suppression. >> and the resulting two years, the democratic party shared a narrative that said we would not have any more free and fair elections in this country, if the united states congress did not eliminate the filibuster and pass a massive voting rights package. as we all know, the filibuster was not eliminated. joe and i were not interested in sacrificing that important right for the institution. that massive voting rights bill was passed to congress, and then we had a free and fair election all across the country. >> it's notable how comfortable she seems in davos, and what she enjoy doing this. this is who sinema is, like we stop the voting rights package, didn't it all work out fine? i would go that far. sinema's record now presents an opportunity for ruben gallego, he's running for his seat because he's got a walk a very delicate tightrope in arizona. he presumably will be in a three-way race between himself, sinema, republican amani, and say that's about as evenly divided as it was. and running against cinema from

the left is not necessarily gonna work. instead, he's framing his fight as a kind of populist one. okay, well, he plans to cross the state, painting cinemas out of touch, and himself, he's a fighter for the working people of arizona. >> there which and the powerful, they don't need more advocates. it's the people that are still trying to decide between groceries and utilities. they need a fighter for them. there is no lobbyist for working families. we could argue different ways about how to do it, but at the core, if you are more likely to be meeting with a powerful than the power less, you are doing this job incorrectly. >> congressman guy ago will have more to say when he joins lawrence o'donnell tonight at 10 pm. and in fact, looking at senators like mark kelly, rachel warnock, they were able

to win in 50 states biden supporting democrat poses. it seems her -- she votes for the wealthy and the corporate interests at the expense of regular working people because that's what she appears to believe in. well, now, she is going to have the answer for those beliefs. go with the general.

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attempted coup failed but other far-right republican seem to be using some version of playbook with some success. take which is happened in the small town of goddard, kansas. baby faced arch conservative hunter larkin, this guy, he managed to get himself reinstalled as mayor in a swift series of moves with the city council meeting last night. they called it a political ambush. >> my motion is that we remove mayor zimmerman as male and we have a new mayoral election. thank you. >> i. >> i. >> i >> that was fast. that was the moment that hunter larkin, which stepped down as mayor amid ethical questions last year managed to get reelected by the goddard city council, ousting the current mayor with a surprise movement,

he got another official fired. the local columnist who reported on this for live coverage, they have seldom seen a political takedown knows this sleazy and yet this well orchestrated. we cover the story, he is here tonight. how does this young man become mayor at this tender age? >> hunter larkin is someone who is served as mayor wants, he step down last may. following a dui arrest and and best gagen by a local reporter into a pickle concerns that he had concerning ties to some local real estate developers. the mayor of goddard is also -- looking hung on to his city council seat and then last tuesday what we saw was really a coup by any other name. it was really a page out of donald trump's playbook in 2020, only the difference was that this worked. >> he's 21, he's already on the seattle city council, he's been mayor. the previous mayor has to resign over a scandal having to do with counterfeit tickets for a local zoo festival. >> correct. >> there was concerns about this guy, larkin and that he gets a dui. he also launches a state

legislative campaign. >> i want to read from your reporting on the kind of campaign that he is modeling. this campaign is about giving a voice to the people of our community, defending what so many of us hold dear like the right to bear arms, keeping critical race theory for schools. he lost that race, right? >> that is right. >> he was that race, he is sitting on the council, and then he launches this surprise attack at a council meeting. >> it looks like a surprise attack to everyone on the outside but obviously he had made some deals behind the scenes to get support on the city council for his candidacy, if you want to call that. it is still unclear as how he managed to get the support and get the votes necessary to retake the mayor's office. >> this meeting, nobody thought this was going to happen, this meeting. it's like a random white council. >> that's right, they were talking about giving the permit for this at a local show. there was discussion of local signage regulations and larkin then brought up this motion to get rid of larry is a man who is the mayor that replaced him. which they did. >> there's also an official that they got rid of that had

been part of one people questioning him, right? >> that is right. the town, sorry, the city manager was fired that night. >> the city manager in places like this tends to be the person administratively running the municipality. >> from what my sources have told me, which include a former member of the city council, the mayor is pretty much a figurehead of goddard. >> the city manager had had concerns about larkin. >> correct, correct. the city manager is a iraq veteran. as far as everything that i've heard, and for some reason, there was some detention between larkin and this fellow. he got rid of him. the next day, the city administrator took the title. the next day, the assistant court. one of the concerns now is getting someone to fill that position. this used to be a assignment. a small city outside of wichita that, 45 minutes outside of wichita. now i spoke with mike who had to see being filled. he was concerned that nobody is going to want this job. >> people don't seem to be taking this line down. i read some local coverage in

the wichita eagle and i read your reporting as well. people are pretty shocked and pretty open arms about this. >> people are shocked. >> this is a conservative place, we should note, generally speaking. this is not like. this is not lives. >> people are very upset, i spoke with my partner this afternoon who said, and he is the one who is behind the recall movement right now. he said that he has got a bipartisan group of folks that are really staring down to try to make this right. he is convinced that they will be able to remove him. >> hunter larkin, who is managed to pull off this bizarre council push in a small town outside of wichita at the age of 23 after running an unsuccessful anti critical race theory state legislative live race, an amazing story, justin, thank you very much. >> thank you for having me, chris. >> still to come, 50 years after roe v. wade, the supreme court is as divided as ever.

-- -- i read some local coverage in the wichita eagle and i read your reporting as well. people are pretty shocked and pretty open arms about this. >> people are shocked. >> this is a conservative place, we should note, generally speaking. this is not like. this is not lives. >> people are very upset, i spoke with my partner this afternoon who said, and he is the one who is behind the recall movement right now. he said that he has got a bipartisan group of folks that are really staring down to try to make this right. he is convinced that they will be able to remove him. >> hunter larkin, who is managed to pull off this bizarre council push in a small town outside of wichita at the age of 23 after running an unsuccessful anti critical race theory state legislative live race, an amazing story, justin,

thank you very much. >> thank you for having me, chris. >> still to come, 50 years after roe v. wade, the supreme court is as divided as ever. tonight, new reporting on the leak that split the already fractured court. that is ahead. that is ahead. they'll never know. and it turns out the general is a quality insurance company that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage- go with the general. everyone remembers the moment they heard, “you have cancer.” how their world stopped... ...and when they found a way to face it. for some,... ...this is where their keytruda story begins. keytruda—a breakthrough immunotherapy that may treat certain cancers. one of those cancers is advanced melanoma, which is a kind of skin cancer where keytruda may be used when your melanoma has spread or cannot be removed by surgery. keytruda helps your immune system fight cancer...

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state of california tonight is dealing with two national shootings that happened within the last three days. one happened hours ago, we are getting details, we'll give them in a moment. first, 11 person died today after being hit by gunfire during a mass shooting in monterey park california. that was saturday night. according to police, it all started just before 10:30 local time when the suspect, 72 -year-old man burst into a banquet hall that was hosting lunar new year celebrations. monterey park is a majority asian community, many people are chinese american. apparently, intent on continuing the violence. a suspect drove to a nearby and studio where another near celebration was underway, thankfully a heroic employee managed to wrestle the gun away from the suspect, saving lives. you can see the struggle here on surveillance footage obtained exclusively by nbc news. that young men there who is wearing a black coat, white hoodie, he told lester holt about the experience. >> did he say anything to you? >> no, that's the scary part. when he came in, he said

nothing. his face was very stoic. the expressions were in his eyes, looking around, trying to find people, trying to get the area for other people. >> how did you decide what to do? >> well, there was a moment. i actually froze up because i had the belief that i was going to die. my life was ending at that very moment. he got his weapon so he could shoot everybody. it dawned on me that this was the moment to disarm him, i could do something that could protect everybody and potentially save myself. >> the suspect got away, but was eventually found dead about 30 miles away. now, public identification of the victims is beginning. families are notified, the disease our men and women ranging into their 70s. the family of one woman killed said she spent years going to monterey park dance hall on weekends. the folks were to celebrate when so many of us are savoring that feeling following years of

having large gatherings due to the pandemic. police haven't named the model of gun, but they describe a semiautomatic pistol with an extended magazine. the kind the sheriff described as illegal in the state. there are certain patterns in the distinctly american shootings. most of them are men, as in this case, but then there are also deviations. they are usually younger, this suspect was 72, a rarity. do you give you 90 of the scope of this, each image is from a different mastering over the past five and a half years. this was the 33rd mass shooting this year. there have been four more since then. in fact, this afternoon, two students were fatally shot. an adult was injured in des moines, iowa. just hours ago, at least seven more people were reportedly shot at killed in half moon bay, california, that is south of san francisco. according to local officials, the victims were chinese farmworkers. the suspect is now in custody, police have identified him as 67 year old --

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so let's go. there were marches, and events the digital age is waiting.

and cities across the country. protesting the right-wing supreme court decision. ending roe and, abortion rights is. summer over to negroes with most seismic and unpopular decisions the board has made in decades. i think it's both a symptom, and the cause, of a court that is declining rapidly losing its legitimacy, which now seems beak tearing it apart from the inside. the new york times reported investigation to who leaked draft decisions to overturn roe says some employees said the leak investigation for the tape of the atmosphere outside the court. that is already grotesque disagreements. the leaks have spurred -- have been judged breathe jim vice versa. i i'm the doors you speak open. are closed. joining me now times vests gator -- who wrote that story, jody kate. jody, it's a great piece of

reporting. first, i guess, what is reporting indicate about how that leaked landed inside the institution. what it meant for the court when it came out. >> it is great to be with you. so, listen, we already we know this is a very painful lead for the court. they are the process very closely, and especially through the deliberative process. the process of writing draft opinions, talking about this possibly very secret. so, the interesting question that was trying to answer is what happened to the leak investigation. because we know that a day or two after the leak, the chief justice announced this investigation. he sounded like he was taking the very seriously. and then we heard very very little. after that, and that is when i started looking into. and the story me being published as less about the dobbs decision. i and overturn the right to abortion. and more about the question,

can the supreme court investigated self? >> i think this is relevant for policy perspective because the court answers only to -- it is an independent branch of the government. i will describe some of the details investigation want to read part of it here. the employees have been formally interrogated and forced to sign affidavits. in contrast, conversation with the justices have been a two-way it or process on which the ask as well sanders questioned, marshall, get a curly, wrote. she had seen no need for them to sign affidavits, she said. tell us about the sort of, two tiered investigation there if you will? i >> well, part of the reason why some people will work inside the court are very upset, is because they said how can you perform an investigation that doesn't examine the nine figures that had prime access to your draft? and how cannot examine the nine

most powerful people involved? so basically, employees, who have never experienced anything like this. they were questioned the very very hard. they have signed the sworn affidavits. they were told that lying, even about something small, quote be a criminal offense. some of them are told that this was a condition of their employment that they had to answer, these questions. and then they kind of had, some of them had the sinking feeling that the justices were not being questioned the same way. the justices are treated with such reference side this dream court. that one of the fascinating details i learned that i hadn't known is that, when you get into those black robes. there are actually junior assistants who are standing at the ready. to put the ropes on. if the justices don't want to put on the ropes themselves. that is kind of the way they

were treated in this investigation. they were treated as above everybody else. the marshall assent publicly indicated speech the justices, during the investigation, but she didn't question them in the same way that the marshall questioned the employees. and they didn't have to signed those affidavits. frankly, it is still really unclear what those conversation with the justices were even like. >> it's funny you know that gayle curlee, who's marshall, there was some back and forth initial report saying it doesn't actually interrogated or questioned the justices. she went to the statement and talked about iterative process in which they said things, and i said, things which just offense whips-ing a conversation. it is very clear, that statement seemed incredibly intentionally miss directional to me. and so far as, what she described as having conversation with the justice, it clearly wasn't the same thing unfolds being done to employees. >> i also want to point out that the complaints that i heard from sources to not just

come from the left. did not just come from people who are upset about the outcome of the dobbs decision. it was bigger than that, it was a question of displace, that was supposed to stand for fairness. and process, and integrity. what am i supposed to think of this investigation if these nine people weren't questioned in the same rigorous way as a buddy else? as you know, a basic principle of the law is the idea that we are all equal under it. >> in fact that is inscribed on the supreme court itself. the building right there, equal justice under law. so the other maps the court had a piece about some of the publicly observable tensions in the way that members of the court, the justices, have been speaking to each other. and also, and their written decisions to instill public knowledge. it seems to point to a very

high degree of tension. when you let the leak on top of this, you got the investigation after. it you got the polling, which they all read the newspaper. how would you characterize the atmosphere inside that institution at this juncture? i >> so, what people said is that it is just really tense. and remember that people close to the decision-making process found out about the dobbs vote in december of 2021. was this giant secret that they had to keep. and the supreme court has dealt with plenty of controversy before, if you think of the -- that is obviously a really really tough episode for people inside. but that played out quickly, and that played out publicly. this was a secret that hung, and then this leak came really as a shock to many people inside. the institution. so then there was this question

of the investigation, and the process and listen, there have been a number of controversies and scandals. in recent years, at the court, as you. no i'm sure everybody watching tonight is familiar with them. this one is a little different, i think, because it is really about all nine justices. >> jody, the new york times, fascinating reporting. i was have you got to come out and talk about it tonight. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this monday night, the rachel maddow show starts right now, good evening rachel. >> good evening, chris thanks my, friend much appreciated. i >> certainly assist our, really happy to hear you with us here tonight. we've got a lot of news to get to tonight, including some late i have to tell you tonight nbc news obtained this remarkable video from security cameras at a dance hall in alhambra, california. this is from saturday night, this weekend. you see the man in the knit cap there. this is saturday night. it is just after that man you saw there in the knit cap.