and save. it spy balloon winner. >> i love, it's by balloon. my winner is the president of united states with an economy that is not just steady but expanding, jobs being created, heading into his state of the union next week. the president is showing the kind of strength that i think the country at the end of the day really want to see a leader possess. so there it is. susan del percio and dean obeidallah thank you guys so much. that's tonight's read out. joy reid returns on monday. all in with chris hayes starts right now. ts right now. >> tonight on all in. >> i have to tell you in illinois they received 5.1 billion at an elementary school there then used it for equity and diversity. >> as the maga congress investigates nonsense and chases balloons up in the clouds.

>> is that bioweapons that? balloon did that blew take off from wuhan? >> a roaring american economy is drowning out the noise ahead of the state of the union. >> the u.s. adding 517,000 jobs last month. >> unemployment drops to 3.4. >> that's the lowest since 1969. >> wow. >> then the disgraced ex president made an absurd question. a republican primary litmus test. >> did you think ashli babbitt was murdered? do you think the police officer was doing his job? >> i think the police officer did his job. >> do george santos allegations outpace allegations? >> i've always said i knew it. i've always been that joke. a >> new report on the creams queens crime fighter setting off spider senses everywhere. >> you know, i guess one person can make a difference. >> when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york.

i'm chris hayes. on tuesday of next week, president joe biden will be making his very first appearance under the big top. the capitol dome a housing the utter circus that is the republican-led house of representatives. it's been since being taken over the mega congress the congress has so far been a spectacle, but newsmax tv or steve bannon spired podcast in the halls and hearing rooms of congress. even after four years with on top of the white house, even many republican members themselves recognize this as a new level of absurdity. kevin mccarthy, the mostly feckless speaker of the house, finally got his first big win yesterday, rallying his caucus to knock democratic congresswoman ilhan omar off the foreign affairs committee. but in the immediate aftermath some republicans in the caucus voted to do it conceded victory was not worth the cost. following the vote house foreign affairs member can block, republican of caroler ottawa,'s were overheard in an elevator calling it the

stupidest vote in the world. buck unnaturally said he would not go along with mccarthy's plan to remove o'mara but eventually flipped to a yes vote. back in that elevator fellow republican congressman mike simpson, idaho, rig read with back and added that all it does is make omar a martyr. apparently at some point they relate to others were listening and buck and simpson urged fellow passengers in the elevator to not let leadership know their thoughts. so that's the state of the house right now. like the republican county overall and it's expected 2024 presidential candidates. the mega house is fully focused on a bevy of cool, obsessive, and sometimes downright comical obsessions. that includes everything from ilhan omar's committee assignments to the presidents sons laptop. and so it is into that building that joe biden will go on tuesday. we'll have a different backdrop from the when you see there. he will be there to update the american people on the state of the union. it will be a bit of reality check for one half of the audience in the room.

it is been three years since the pandemic hit. he's just two years into his presidency. but joe biden will be able to tell a pretty darn good story. nothing illustrates that better than today's jobs numbers. the labor department reported the economy added a whopping, a staggering 570,000 jobs in the first month of the year. that was way above expectations. the unemployment rate also dropped to just 3.4%. 3.4%! that is the lowest that metric has been since 1969, the year neil armstrong mark walked on the moon. we also got revised numbers from the past two years, showing that the u.s. economy added 7.1 million jobs in 2021. that's almost 400,000 more than previously reported. and for 2022 they revised the number up as well, by nearly 200,000 for a total of 4.6 million jobs added. speaking at the white house this morning, president biden pointed out that his

administration is breaking records. >> we have created more jobs in two years than any presidential term at anytime, in two years. that's the strongest two years of job growth in history by a long shot. put simply, i would argue the biden economic plan is working. for the past two years we have heard a chorus of critics right off my economic plan. they said it's just not possible to grow the economy from the bottom up and the middle out. they said we can't bring back american manufacturing. they said we can't make things in america anymore. well, today's data makes clear crystal clear what i've always known in my gut, these critics and cynics are wrong. >> many of these new jobs, is the president was alluding to, are being created in blue-collar industries. the past two years the u.s. economy has created 800,000 manufacturing jobs. in fact, manufacturing has seen a faster recovery than any other business cycle since the 1950s. what a wage growth overall was

starting to slow, we have been seeing that lower wage workers, and this is crucial, the people who make the least are making are getting the biggest wage increases. none of this happened by accident. the big lesson that came out of the great recession, and the financial crisis and its aftermath, was that the recovery act, the stimulus package, which totaled about 800 billion dollars, ended up being too small. in the midst of a crisis like that, you only get one shot to get it right. so since then, a lot of progressive economists have argued for a different model. and they were successful. this time the biden administration, the folks in democratic policy and politics aired on the side of going to big, with a 1.9 trillion dollar american rescue plan, one of the first things passed, and people argued it was too much. they had a lot of critics, and they got some ammunition when inflation did in fact shoot up quite a bit and people understandably didn't like it. but the american rescue plan helped heat up the economy in the midst of a once in a century pandemic and recovery.

it put unprecedented, truly unprecedented amounts of money in the american people people's pockets. when you look at the general economic vision of the biden administration, it borrows some of the incoherent yet genuine complaints that actually powered donald trump and trumpism. biden and his advisers have managed to turn that into actual progressive policy. here's what i mean by that. underneath a spectacle and the cruelty and the bigotry and the weirdness of donald trump, there was a real critique of the globalized neoliberal economic saluda cates. the policies that brought us cheap goods and chief trade and hollow manufacturing sector in middle class that left huge swaths of the country with you with no industry to speak of. to be clear, donald trump didn't actually do anything about that. he just hollered america first, all kinds of xenophobia, and then when he actually had power, he just cut corporate taxes like every other republican.

the biden folks seem to have actually taken the core of the critique seriously. they have been working hard to rebuild the american manufacturing base, with 24 century jobs in green energy and infrastructure improvements and bringing more production of high tech products to the u.s.. those investments are actually bringing loads of money and jobs to red states, places that have felt left behind and were, i think, attracted to adorn trump populist message. there's no guarantee this will work, either in economics or politics, especially in the long run. the fact is, america is still a very unequal place. american capitalism is the most unequal, almost anywhere in the developed world. we have tens of people millions of people living in poverty. for many people grinding away low paying jobs facing high prices in everything from food to health care, it can feel like not much has changed. but again, you take a step back. you look at these two years and, this record, which is a record,

no president has created this many jobs. as the beginning of a different trajectory in a different way of thinking about american economic policy. there is something really promising here. amazingly, and the tender age of 80, joe biden is offering a new vision of a robust middle class economy, industrial policy, making sure it works for working people. on tuesday when he stands up in the centering of the maga circus, that is the story he is likely to tell the american people. >> robert i served as -- he's now the advisor of public policy when -- i wrote this mall monologue you, more than almost anyone was present at the moment when these fights over economic policy, government spending, industrial policy, and free trade were roiling the clinton administration. and in many ways the clinton

administration went in the direction of nafta, trading status for china, that set us on the path that we have been on. i wonder, first, if you think there is something new here, something different the admin the biden administration is doing. >> i think it's enormously important. it's a very different paradigm of the ronald reagan paradigm that dominated republican in democratic politics over the last 50 years. that paradigm simply says that instead of assuming that there is a free market, assume that something different is happening. assume that the market itself is a human creation. it's a creation of laws and policies, and let's ask ourselves what kind of market we want. and if we want to market that is going to actually help people, we'll be left behind over the last 50 years, let's change that market. let's actually do something different in terms of designing the market differently. that is what our president,

president biden, as embarked upon. that new paradigm is incredibly important for the future. >> one of the things that i think powered a lot of, some of the traction to donald trump, especially when he went after trade and nafta, it really was a kind of bipartisan orthodoxy. it didn't really matter if there was manufacturing. the trade stuff didn't matter. it was all about comparative advantage and it was cheaper to make stuff in mexico and china. so let americans be knowledge workers. then they can just import the chips and they can import the cars and everyone will get cheap goods. that was really the dominant thinking. it does feel like that has fallen apart in a pretty profound way in the last two years, and we are seeing what comes after it in the policy level when you look at the chips act and the inflation reduction act. >> i think that's right, chris. it's interesting, why did it

fall apart? i think it fell apart in part because of the legacy of, really, the financial explosion of 2008 2009. but it was also the pandemic that sort of caused everybody to really look at the fundamentals. what is really going on here? what do we need? as a result, a lot of the assumptions, the economic assumptions that people are saying, people said you can't possibly have a non inflationary policy that also creates new jobs. that's just not possible. you can't possibly have a stimulus that's that large that is not going to ultimately lead to inflation that is destructive of jobs. all of these micro economic and macroeconomic assumptions suddenly became questionable, and i think joe biden, notwithstanding his age, notwithstanding being 80 years old, joe biden had the

steadiness of focus to see that these sorts of things needed to be changed and he was going to use the american rescue plan in an important way, he was going to have a completely different approach to some supply side, economics, but it was going to be supply chains for the average working person. it was going to be new jobs to help average people. this is a new concept with regard to how moncton markets are functioning. >> there's a back to the future, right, because we had industrial policy from the country's beginnings and through the 19th century. there's amazing literature on how much how managed american growth was, particularly in the periods when it grew fast, during the cold war in the space race in the buildup of the 50s and 60s. there's also, i mean, turning the corner on inflation, this jobs report, to me this is the big thing. there's all these folks that were lobbying to go big on the

american rescue plan, run the economy hot, and then inflation went high and folks fight like larry summers and others were saying ceo, bumped up against the boundary. you libs, you want to throw money around, this is what happens. and they had some data on their side. it wasn't like a crazy argument. what's the significance of today's job report that shows you're still adding jobs while inflation is coming down? >> that's exactly it. how can you have 517,000 new jobs added while inflation is coming down? every economist i know today that i have contacted are scratching their heads. this is impossible. this goes against every textbook. well, i suggested to them that maybe the textbooks it's wrong. maybe they actually ought to look at biden onyx as a different kind of economics. and economics that is based upon what real people need and

what will people. do the kitchen table discussion instead of the airy fairy discussions about free markets and privatization and all of the other, and globalization, all the things we used to talk about that made no sense to average working people. if you start from where they are, if you start from the discussions they have over the kitchen table, then you begin to see what is needed in terms of designing a new economy. >> robert reich, always a pleasure to talk to. you thank you very. much >> thanks, chris. >> it's amazing how reporting about george santos can still just kind of make you gasp or chuckle or say what, really? tonight, the latest outlandish claim that he was a producer under broadway musical about a fictional hero from queens, as well as details of what he's doing a washington as a duly elected resident representative of people from queens. that's all coming up. 's all coming up

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about the record that you have achieved, the state of the union address is also an important opportunity to identify the problems that the president wants to solve. i've got to, say as we survey american life in 2023, after a very strange run here, i think there's one problem that really stands out. it's an issue that embodies a lot of the level of acute crisis inside our society. that's the declining life expectancy for americans. countries that are growing rich

and healthy generally don't see sharp drops in life expectancy unless something huge and terrible happens, like the 2021 study that showed, quote, life expectancy plummeted in the successor states of the former soviet union in the early 1990s immediately after the fall of the ussr. that's a huge change. or in syria where there's a six year drop in life expectancy during that early years of that country's brutal civil war. clearly neither of those things are happening here. but something is happening, and there's not really any good precedent for it. take a look at this chart. for more than a century life expectancy in this country rose steadily. every new generation could expect to live longer than their parents. and that is something that you don't typically you do typically see as a country obtains wealth. other countries arise as well. one of the benefits of growing more wealth in an economy is

longer lifespan. then something happened. life expectancy in the u.s. in 2014 peaked, just shy of 79 years. and it stayed there until the pandemic. then life expectancy began to drop. you can see how the line just falls away to a level we have not seen since 1996. now of course, obviously, the pandemic is a big part of this decline over the last few years, and more than just the u.s.. other wealthy developed pure countries peer countries experienced a drop in life expectancy during the pandemic. but you can see on the average, see that blue line? those countries suffered a smaller drop, considerably smaller drop, and more importantly, they have recovered yearly all the lost years. meanwhile the u.s. remains in an apparent freefall. that what that tells us is that there is a story here, and i think that story combines a lot of the qualities of american life that make up the dark side of what we might call american

exceptionalism. it shows that darkness measured against our peer countries over the decades. look at this example. world bank data shows france as a gross domestic product just shy of five trillion dollars, roughly where u.s. was a 1980. about 40 years behind us in terms of economic growth. the kaiser family foundation analysis found that french citizens can expect to live about six and a half years longer than americans. in fact, our current life expectancy is comparable to that a friend's life expectancy in 1987. so this is not a story of money. we are richer than the french. we can't use our economic muscle to buy our way out of this problem. in fact, we already spend more on average on health care than anyone else in the world. we still live shorter lives the rest of our peer countries. they spent half as much as we do on health care per capita in live six years longer. the u.s. is such an extreme

outlier. it shows the something is deeply wrong. there are several factors we can point to as sources of the problem. the most obvious, like i said, as the pandemic. we have done a worse job in handling the virus than a lot of other places. it is been deadlier here than just about anywhere else other than peru, some countries in eastern europe. that's likely due, in large part, to the fact that we are already suffering through worst health outcomes than other countries and have higher levels of health quality. on top of that only about 60% of the eligible u.s. population right now have received their bivalent booster shot because despite widespread availability. again, like i said, this life expectancy issue is one that existed long before the pandemic supercharged it. for instance, we have far more gun violence cutting live short than any other peer country, and it's not even close. our homicide rate has been climbing in recent years. that is contributing. suicide, leading cause of gun

deaths, in fact, are also up at rates we haven't seen in decades. after years of decline, traffic fatalities are rising to levels not seen since the mid 2000s. preliminary numbers show the 2021 was a particularly deadly year on the roads. overdose deaths are shockingly high. more than 142,000 people died of a drug overdose in 2021. overdose numbers have also been trending in the wrong direction for years now, hitting certain sections of the country particularly hard. it's a grim picture, i've got to say. you put this all together, we find that one of the richest countries on the ground, one of the richest societies that his ever occupied earth is losing ground in the most precious irreplaceable resource that exists, the hours and days we have on this planet with each other. it bears repeating, something is profoundly wrong. it's the job of leaders in our

government to fix our government need to find problems and fix them. if i were advising president biden on the state of the union address next tuesday at ago would tell him to talk about extending life in america. i would tell him he should announce a government task force, of blue ribbon committee, dedicated to this issue, pledge a whole government approach, make it a priority in the administration, devoting into identifying the causes of declining american life expectancy and to tangibly reversing that trend before the end of his first term. because the declines are, as with all things in american life, an equally distributed. life expectancy for black americans dropped by nearly four years. the first year pandemic alone took three years off black americans projected lifespans. for indigenous people life expectancy dropped by almost seven years. there is a devastating cut to the life expectancy of a group already projected to live shorter lives than other

americans. it's the greatest country on earth. you hear it all the time. and in the greatest country on earth we should be living long healthy lives in america but get longer year after year. we live in one of the richest societies humans on the planet already ever produced. to many of us are not. it's long past time for our government to act. o act. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements. ingrezza is different. it's the simple, once-daily treatment proven to reduce td that's #1 prescribed. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how ingrezza affects you.

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that comes as officials, as you might know, are tracking that other balloon, last spotted hovering as high as 60,000 feet over the great plains. u.s. officials have considered shooting it down, but hesitated over concerns of the debris hurting civilians caught in its path. i'm joined by nbc news correspondent covering national security and pentagon. courtney, what's the latest with the balloon? >> as you said, it's now somewhere over the continental u.s.. still it was spotted over kansas at some point, but the pentagon just will not tell us where it's going, beyond saying it's continuing to move east. they are also saying that they expect, according to the latest assessment, that it will probably be over the u.s. for the next few days. then the big question becomes, what happens when it's not over the u.s.? what happens when it's out to sea? there is speculation that we might see action. but as it reverses the u.s., what is undeniable if it will sometimes be close to potential u.s. strategic assets like u.s.

military bases. what we learned late today is that the u.s. is now using some of its counter intelligence capabilities to obscure the picture that chinese balloon is able to see on the ground. as it gets potentially closer to that the u.s. doesn't want it to see, they have the capability to keep it from seeing things that might be potentially restricted or may cause some sort of concern to u.s. intelligence. >> just in terms of the shooting down, cars are lots of people saying it should be shot down, including donald trump, who said a fundraising email out saying shut it down. it's enormous. it's 50,000 feet up and we're seeing. it it's very large. as you should've down like, that debris is going to fall somewhere, soon. >> that's exactly what people here, defense officials are saying is the concern about shutting down. as you mention, it's huge. estimates as to maybe three school buses in size. it's around the neighborhood of

60,000 feet, so as you said if we can see it, that means, it gives you a sense of just how enormous it is, and in addition to that, it has a relatively large payload. if you were to shoot it down or blow it up in space, when it's that high and it's that large, they will not be able to control the debris field. it will be potentially large. it could fall to the ground, potentially injuring civilians, potentially killing, infrastructure, and they can't control it. that's one of the biggest concerns, one of the major reasons, one of the reasons they decided not to shoot it down. >> thanks for that update. we'll be right back. be right back. fall asleep naturally... plus extended-release b-vitamins. wake up feeling refreshed. pure zzzs. sleep better. wake up your best. ♪3, 4♪ ♪ wake up feeling refreshed. pure zzzs. ♪hey♪ ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪

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self proclaimed crime fighter from queens pretends to have produced musical about fictional fund crime fighter from queens. the least in the ever growing list of george santos fibs come from bloomberg tonight, apparently santos telling donors on the run up to his election that he had been a producer [laughter] for the broadway musical spider, turn out the dark. that's what people familiar with the discussions. of course he wasn't involved with the production at all, according to the shows lead producer. it's kind of a weird thing to make up stories about, because the show was quite infamously a hugely expensive flop. none of this came to light until after he was elected to represent new york's third congressional district. in the nearly four weeks since he's actually been in congress car santos spent a lot of time running from reporters, escaping into elevators in

escaping into his closed office. you now get a look at what happens beyond a. doors santos arrived and skeleton staff and after the first revelations after of his many revelations, the investigations into his campaign finances, which are ongoing, it seems no -- respect for stability for long term careers would be near him. and here is -- who runs away and burrow's steve bannon's bought podcast producer, a man described as a veteran maga movement provocateur, who played a key role in the hunter biden laptop saga. he's now the operations director for congressman george santos. here he is in a photo with another prescriptive santos higher, derek myers, and sanders says he was a process of hiring miners were decided against it because of concerns about his background and santos coal miners had secretly recorded a conversation in his office, quote he's, violated

the trust we had in him. time points reported that they obtained that audio from meyers. meyers says it came from a meeting with santos with staff anyone points sandal starts talking about leaving hiring decisions to chief of staff, saying, quote, i trust this guy with everything, and i've obviously after up and lied to him like i lie to everyone else. and he still forgave me. joining me now one investigative reporters of talking points memo obtained this audio and spoke to derek myers, josh komensky. josh, what is life like behind the closed doors of the george santos congressional office? is it a functioning office? >> as far as we can tell it's extremely chaotic, chris. i think that with the audio that myers gave us reveals is the chaos, a lot of the tensions between the staff but also the decisions are made in an act halfway. the conversation we had he wasn't even dismissed he was called in to be questioned

about this incident in his past, when he was working as a journalist, and santos and his chief of staff didn't get around to questioning him about that directly. instead they talked about botox, weight loss, brazilian candy, cheap ties. they meander down talking about things they didn't have anything to do with what was going on in front of them, is this guy was waiting to find out if he was going to be fired or not. so i think that kind of meandering quality to. it there's a lack of organization. but it's also a dearth of people. this is congressional staff that has around three or four people it is you can tell employed right now -- >> just for the record, it's like usually 20, 25, usually on the hill. somewhere in there. >> yeah. it's usually, yes, around that size. so santos has been in there for a month and this around four people. as far as we can tell they're trying to staff up, but it's

difficult, given his reputation in the fact that he's become the new most notorious guy on capitol hill. >> as you know, we obviously can't vote for myers or the recording. he did tweet today that a police report with capitol police and complaint with congressional ethics regarding ethical violations and sexual harassment by congressman george santos during my time working in his office. we'll see where that complaint goes. tell us more about vish burra who does have a kind of history in right-wing media. >> yes, so this is the guy who encourage viewers to read my colleague hunter walker's profile of him that came out last week. but vish burra, as you mentioned, in the intro, he has this background in on the far right. he is a guy who, i think, self consciously sees himself as a real fighter, as a pugilist. he sees himself as having fought his way in from the bottom. he comes from staten island. been involved with the young republican club.

from there he went on to work for steve bannon, with hunter and hunter biden exposé if you want to call it that. he ended up working with matt gaetz, and after the fbi investigation into gaetz's alleged sex trafficking, after those went away, he ended up working for george santos. so another point it's interesting about vish burra, which is basically ideological. he's a maga provocateur. but a specific way where he's kind of going around politicians who are facing these big scandals. and i think he's serving a purpose that is in an extreme way, the intent is part to draw intention. in santos's case with vish burra, if you're part of the movement dedicated to discrediting american government, to making people think that it's irreparable and run by liars and frauds, it makes a lot of sense to draw attention to a guy in congress who is a liar -- he is also in a situation not

dissimilar from marjorie taylor greene in the last congress, who had no committee assignments, and did not really have much in the way of official duties. and so, there was not much for her to do other than troll. i guess, the constituents services -- that's basically what george santos -- i have to imagine everyone there also feels like the clock is ticking on this show. it is really unclear if it gets picked up for a second season, although who knows. but it certainly seems like there is a lot pointing to their actual serious law enforcement investigations that could be a lot of trouble >> yeah. i just don't want to go -- on that. because we just don't know. but we do know that local, state and federal authorities are investigating santos. -- finances typically his campaign finances. i think one of the funny things that came out of the story is, george santos firing his treasurer and hiring a treasure, at least on his campaign filings, who had agreed to work for him and the guy had to deny

that he was working for george santos. so, you can't find someone to agree to work with you as a treasure, to sign off on your campaign finance filings -- that's just a problem, i think. >> yeah, one thing that i think he is going to learn in congress is that, with great power comes great responsibility. josh kovensky, i thank you very much thanks for having me chris hayes. >> still ahead, the maga fringe theories even too extreme for kevin mccarthy now taking center stage in the 2024 republican primary race. that is next. that is next ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ #1 isn't a status earned overnight. it's earned in every wash, and re-earned every day. tide. america's #1 detergent. appreciate it so much. thank you.

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room whose daughter was murdered on january 6th, actually babbitt. and actually babbitt has -- there has never been a trial. as a matter of fact, no one has cared about the person who shot and killed her and no one in congress has really address that issue. the january 6th committee did not address it. and i believe there are many people that came into the capital on january six to civil rights and liberties are being violated heavily. >> that was how republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene began her tenure on the house oversight committee this week claiming that ashli babbitt was murdered, that it was one of -- leading to the still occupied house chamber. that's the inner sanctum where the members were, on january 6th. she was killed by a single shot fired by a capitol police

officer as he tried to climb through that doorway. that is her on the top right corner of your screen trying to breach the barricade towards the chamber where members were still evacuating. capitol police conducted an internal investigation and found no wrongdoing by the officer. it's obviously a terry's very sad tragic situation, when that would not have happened if donald trump had not with his supporters into a violent frenzy and sent them marching towards the capitol. so, marjorie taylor greene's claim that babbitt was murdered by a capitol police officer who was trying to protect members of congress is so extreme, even for her, kevin mccarthy had to jump into damage control. >> one of the first things that marjorie taylor greene said from the oversight dais was that ashli babbitt was more burritt murdered. do you think ashli babbitt? or do you think the police officer was doing his job? i think the police officer did his job. >> that rebuttal did not sit too well with his de facto boss. -- back the blue candidate issued a post on his twitter

condemning mccarthy for not -- trump started by saying, quote, i totally disagree with kevin mccarthy. he called babbitt a, quote, great patriot. the capitol police officer, who is black, a thug and a coward, and within all caps pronouncement, ashli babbitt was murdered, followed by three exclamation points. that man is still a front runner for the republican nomination, which means this is now a real issue in the republican primary. opponents will have to go on the record that, do they agree that ashli babbitt was murdered by a thug. the kind of thing that the republican presidential contest is like to be likely to be about -- tim miller is a former communications director for george w. bush -- alexi mccammond he's a reporter at axios. both join me now. tim, as a veteran of the last time this played out in 2016, i think it has been good for the country and largely salutary that he is not on twitter.

he puts out crazy stuff every day. it's disgusting, vile, provocative, whatever. it does not dominate news cycles. but at a certain point, saying the police officer that killed ashli babbitt is a thug, who murdered her, is going to be a thing that other republican candidates will have to answer for as the primary goes on, don't you think? >> yes. it's giving me a little ptsd, chris hayes, i actually. when you think about that chair -- do you respond to this, do you ignore this guy, do you attack him? you saw in 2016 everybody tried a bunch of different strategies and nothing seemed to work ron desantis right now -- this is why he's the lane getting into this race. because the sooner he gets in, he's going to be forced to make decisions such as this. so, i think that it is how trump successfully alpha dogged the 2016 field. i think there are some differences now. his shine has worn off a little bit and he's not the new fish

he has lost a couple of campaigns. some of the people do not believe he lost the campaigns. but others do. so, we will see if it as it is as effective this time -- by the way, my -- they should become an issue. ignoring him is not the path out of this. we have tried that for eight years now. we are coming up on your eight of his campaign. and if these capitol police officers were heroes -- if he's going to make racist attacks on the, we should know whether republican candidates stand on them and the idea of ignoring it has not worked. >> yeah. alexi, that's an interesting calculation there, tim which, of course, a lot of folks have pointed out that at this point in the 2015 cycle there were a lot more declared candidates, that they are waiting and i have thought they are waiting because they do not know if they want to get in or not, the only one who sort of seems to be fully committed is nikki haley, who is going to announce. but i do wonder how much it is

like, yeah, why not just fund-raise and wait and not be pulled into that maelstrom from for as long as you can? do you think that is part of the thinking? >> yeah. i mean, that's certainly part of the thinking within some corners of the republican party. it's both to sit and wait and watch donald trump's -- so far, kind of bluster, 24 2024 campaign bid, which is not getting as much attention, he's not been drawing the same crowds as he has been in 2016 in 2020 -- and other republicans are looking into sort of weather and how his campaign can take shape in a way that is a formidable challenge. by the other thing that i think a lot of about and that i talked the most about is that a number of these republican governors across the country, whether it is florida governor ron desantis, virginia governor glenn youngkin, these folks who are in the middle of these legislative sessions, as you know, which won't wrap up until march or early spring of this year, those few weeks, those next couple of months, gives these folks ample opportunity to put forward bills that are either messaging bills, or things that they can get

through in republican -controlled state legislatures that will give them more things to run on then donald trump has -- i mean, even for his presidency, but certainly in the time since, you see what he has done between now and the -- the biggest thing he has to run on so far is those nfc baseball cards he has put out. >> i had forgotten those until you mentioned them. you know, one thing that has become clear -- it's becoming very clear, and very clear in the last few weeks, it's just how ugly the actual policy discussion is going to get here. so, we have seen on two things today, so far, we talk about vaccines today that trump is like -- you know, he wants to get to the right of ron desantis on vaccines. there's a vaccine race to the bottom. we have also seen it on transitions. dave weigel wrote a piece for some of, forward he pointed this out, -- ignored, rightly. but basically calling for the government to do what it can to stop all gender affirming care, not just for kids, but just

across the board, that you can't get gender affirming care in the u.s. is the goal. and there is going to be a bidding war, i fear, for the most sort of heinous possible parts of the base between desantis and trump and whatever else. what do you think about that? >> for sure, i thought dave weigel's article was spot on today. i would also just add to that list of trans issues and vaccines, the grooming issue in the schools, the parents rights -- you saw trump -- the other day trump comes out and he says he wants all principles to be elected officials. that is going to be great. politicize our schools even more. >> [laughter] i had not seen that! oh, my god. >> yeah, so that one might have snuck by. and obviously, there is immigration. we have already seen this with ron desantis and the migrants, thinking that that was part of this. so, just those four come to mind, where we are -- there is a race to the bottom that is -- exceptionally a good way to describe. it >> elect every principal.

that is one of the stupidest ideas i have ever heard. thank you for -- there's also this weird back and forth, alexi, about the fact that the fewer there are the better it is for the anti trump forces, and particularly ron desantis. and i am seeing particularly pay making this bullish case -- rosstown state and a few others made it, like, i'll maybe other people won't get in, maybe it will just be ron desantis and trump, functionally. maybe everyone is worried about the lessons in the last word, meaning 2016. what do you think about that? >> as we know from nikki haley herself, she plans to announce a run by february 15th. someone like senator tim scott is making a huge announcement in a state today after she is doing. that governor larry hogan -- former governor of maryland -- is doing all these radio interviews, suggesting that he is going to jump into the race. so, i think people right now like to think that it could be a ron desantis and trump race, obviously it's very early. obviously, those two are at

each other's throats whenever they can be. but i think about someone like governor brian kemp. trump has a very weird love hate relationship with the state of georgia. democrats could add georgia to the early primary calendar window for them in 2024. that could bring in greater national spotlight to the state, which could be beneficial for someone like brian kemp. and so i'm also curious thinking about whether and how he is going to do something to try to really, i think, bring trump to the fold, and could then start a war, not just against brian kemp but georgia republicans who have seen democrats doing better and better statewide there over the last few cycles. >> yeah. it's a nation point that we might not even know who might be getting in yet. tim miller and alexi mccammond, thank you both. >> thanks. >> that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. starts>> i know you love sayingt is all in for this week. >> it's one of my favorite sentences of the week. >> t