church that is black. it's the most segregated place in america, and so that's a's a great deal about a christian nation. i can't afford to trust most white christians, and the christian church. i don't know whether the labor unions and their bosses really hate me, that doesn't matter, but i know that i'm not in their unions. i know that the real estate lobbyist keep me out. i don't know if the board of education hits by people, but i know that the textbooks are given to children to read, in the schools that we have to go to. >> the feature on james baldwin and more, all month on the readout blog. that is tonight's readout, all in with chris hayes starts right now. out, all >> tonight on -- >> he seems to take -- did you guys take the bait from him? >> i didn't take any bait. >> one day after the biden address to the nation, the

circus continues in the house. >> did either of you approve the shadow banning of my account at lauren boebert? >> david plouffe and jen psaki and how the president rattled republicans. >> at one point, it looked like you are trying to shush your side of the aisle. what happened? >> plus, the secret planes tickets are social security hiding in plain sight. >> if it was matt gates, i think that we do need reforms to social security and medicare. >> the latest ruling chapter from the scolding of george santos. >> it wasn't very normative of him. >> this all starts right now. good evening, i'm chris hayes. if nothing else, the last 24 hours have given us some perfect illustration of the very different, rhetorical universes at the two political parties are living in. on the one sand, president biden, who just delivered his second official state of the

union address last night. of course, being president, joe biden holds a unique position. he gets to deliver a speech to over 27 million americans, according to early estimates. it was a long speech, clocking in at nearly one hour and 13 minutes. what was most striking to me about it was that the president focused the bulk of that time, just about two thirds, on what you could call his version of the america first agenda. he even used that phrase. he has taken some of the most politically popular aspects of maga-ism, and build them into an actual progressive policy agenda. includes a worker center trade policy, bringing manufacturing back to the u.s. through government intervention industrial policy. rebuilding a blue collar new class with good paying jobs. as he noted last night, that doesn't require a college degree. these are all things that donald trump gestured towards, or rinse and raved towards, but didn't do anything to promote.

now, two years into his presidency, joe biden has signed laws putting these policies into action, bringing about real results that he can get up in front of the nation and tell. >> i stand here tonight, after we have created, with the help of many people in this room, 12 million new jobs, more jobs created in two years than any president has created in four years. the unemployment rate is a 3.4%, a 50 year low. [applause] >> near record unemployment. for too many decades, we have export jobs. now thanks to what you have done, we've explored creating new jobs. >> part of that approach last night was the president also promoting an anti corporate populism. time and time again, taking the opportunity to show that he's on the side of regular, folks getting screwed by everything from credit card companies to hotels, to air miles. >> i know how one feels when a

company over charges you and gets away with it. not anymore. we have written a bill to stop it all, it's called the junk fee prevention act. we are going to ban surprise resort fees that hotels charge on the bill, those fees can cost up to -- that aren't even resorts. it will prohibit airlines and charge 50 dollar round trips for families just to be able to sit together. baggage fees are bad enough, airlines cannot treat your child like a piece of baggage. >> clearly, all of this was directed at the kinds of voters who joe biden and democrats need to win at the margin, in order to win statewide races, senate races, national elections, to govern the country. that was the biden democratic approach. progressive agenda, delivered in this populist, folksy, common sense broadly appealing manner. they're trying to get the people they think are

persuadable towards their vision, and not the vision of the republican party in donald trump. then you have the republican party. they are enduring the image from last night, georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, booing and hollering, heckling from the back row. the parties official response, delivered by former trump press secretary, now governor of arkansas, a daughter of former governor of arkansas, sarah huckabee sanders, she sounded like a maggot fox news feed your dream. >> the biden administration seems more interested in woke fantasies than the hard reality that americans face every day. he is the first man to surrender his presidency to a woke mob that cannot even tell you what a woman is. his administration has been completely hijacked by the radical left. i have signed executive orders to ban crt, racism, and indoctrination in our schools. eliminates the use of

derogatory term latin ex-in our government. we are under attack in a left-wing culture war. we did not start, and never wanted to fight. >> every day, we are told that we must partake in their rituals, salute their flags, and warship their false idols. >> what are you talking about? what are you talking about? literally, in a real sense, what flex? this is not an aberration, this is actually the way that the republican party is running the part of the government that they now control. just look at what they were up to today. it is a typical day in the maga caucus, rather than working on something material, tangible like, for instance, bringing down inflation, the cost of living, you could have a hearing on that. they held a hearing, and i quote, twitter's role in suppressing the hunter biden laptop story. the front of the mind for most americans, republicans on the oversight committee, doing a lot of time rambling questions, which posts did twitter sensor, and why did you take my account

down, why did you take down the images of the president son's genitals, which they obviously want to see. that was a real exchange. a real one. between florida congressman byron dogma -- >> do you know how many tweets were actually flagged and taken down at the behest of the biden team? >> i would not agree with the characterization of it being at the best of them. these tweets were reported, and twitter independently evaluated them. >> the email is very clear. more to review, from biden team. the response three hours later, roll so we can see. their quest at the bottom, saying, handle these. what does that mean? >> my understanding is that these tweets contained non consensual nude photos of hunter biden, and they were removed by the company. >> really quick, how could you know so much about the concept of these tweets -- as far as i'm concerned, these are just web addresses. i don't know what's in these

tweets. you don't the content, but you don't know who you're talking to the biden team? >> sir, i did not meet with the biden team. there was extensive public reporting about these tweets specifically, which uncovered what they were. >> take a step back. this is a congressional hearing. byron donalds, elected member of congress, why did you take down the pictures of the presidents sons genitals? why, sir? who did you talk about? why are they not up there? why can't i look at them right now, sir? what an earth. the hearing also featured along ramp up complaining about, of course, her suspension from twitter, for repeatedly spreading lies about covid. >> you can consider your speech canceled during my time, because you canceled line. you permanently banned my personal twitter account, which was my campaign account as well. are you you coordinated with dhs, the fbi, the cia, our

government, and outside groups, to permanently banned, shadow bend conservative americans and candidates like me, and the former president of the united states. president donald trey trump. you were censoring, and wrongfully violating our first amendment of free speech rights. >> well, mr. woke twitter, it looks like the councillor has become the cancel. the tables have turned, and now you're sitting on legs. all of this posturing is designed to feed the maga base is to create content for the fox news extent of the universe. it's a big chunk of people, but a relatively small percentage of the populace in total. but look, i'm not the audience for this. i'll be the first to say it. i do get that. and i don't know, maybe this stuff is effective, maybe what the median voter wants to hear is, why did you take down that marjorie taylor tweet? why can't i look at hunter biden's news? why not? that's what people are really into, maybe that's what people

can't really care about. but we have already tested this general republican message on a broader scale, in the midterm elections. they tried to persuade swing voters with this kind of thing, and it mostly bombed. most republicans seemed intent on not learning that lesson. most of the house is happy for them not to. >> david plouffe, former campaign manager for barack obama's 2008 presidential campaign. also serving as the -- jen psaki, former press secretary for president biden, and msnbc host. they both join me now. david, let me go to you first, just on the kind of split screen effect here of the state of the union, and the hunter biden twitter laptop hearing, as to examples of approaches to political speech, and political persuasion. i felt that the president, he just kind of dunked on them all night last night, and it didn't really seem like today it made me realize or understand it of

course, correction might be an order. >> of course not, chris. if you are democrat, it's clear that the republicans and are intent to play their role as basically the weakest, most out of touch opposition. this is what we are going to see for the next two years, and by the way the presidential campaign has not really begun. once that starts, you're going to see this even accelerate, as those candidates all try to appeal to qanon, and the steve bannon audiences of the world. i did think that joe biden last night, obviously he did a great job of talking about the debt ceiling, medicare, social security, but he laid out a blueprint for democrats for the next two years, about the kind of language to use. it was not washington post, see like, but it was language that would be at home in washington, pennsylvania, outside of pittsburgh. talking about no class, people trying to get middle class jobs, the trades, and also

understanding that people were still dealing with high prices. wage is not going fast enough. it is the tale of two parties. i would think that one party certainly respected joe biden last night. he's focused on talking to the entire country. generally, swing voters, and specifically moderate voters. the republicans in congress seem incapable of doing that. that is not going to change. mccarthy doesn't have the ability, he's like a bowl of jell-o, he's got no more margin. i think that's what we are going to see. when you're a democrat, thinking about 2024, you've got a long way, a lot of political lifetimes, who's going to happen? that to me is a truism. you can't control what you're putting in this. you can make mistakes on politics, but you can control what you do. joe biden put out a great blueprint, not just for his administration and potential, likely presidential candidacy, but for the entire party. >> jen, both president bill

clinton and president barack obama, the two previous democratic presidents, saw the house change hands in the first democratic election, huge, massive, shall lacked. but in both cases, i think that the republican house for both of those presidents ended up politically being useful. it can do substantive damage. even by those terms, there are effective ways to prosecute culture war, glenn young did it on virginia schools when he ran for governor. you took down my twitter post, that strikes me as the worst type of this. >> the fact of the hills that they want to die on, or the hill, is that we want you to spread covid misinformation, and we want to see the genitalia of the president son. if you're sitting at home, you're thinking what the heck, not just progressives and liberals, or active democrats, but 29 people, -- 29 million people, or whatever the final number is watched the

speech last night. they watched joe biden say that i want to lower prescription drugs. you know those hotel fees, that's crap, i want to get rid of that. i don't think that you should be able to sit next year thing -- that all sounds fine. my friends from college or texting me about it. and you have sarah huckabee sanders saying that there is a mad mob coming at you, and it's not woke policies. i just think that if they're going to continue, and i totally agree, to run for this, pursuing 11, 12% of the public and population, these are the hills were going to die on. for the white house, if you're sitting there, you're thinking great, we will go appeal to what the rest of the country cares about. >> part of this is the incentive structure. in terms of -- you're seeing, david, in the primary. in case there is an emerging one. you're going to quote each other on, should trans folks be rendered illegal, full stop? should it be made criminally

illegal for any gender affirming care anywhere? who is the most anti vax? we are early, they haven't really started to go at each other, desantis and trump, but the incentive structure is the incentive structure, they will go to that because that's where the fight is going to be. >> there's no question. and historically, if you look at presidential elections, it tends to be the party that is base farthest away from the center of the electors, swing voters in the general election who lose. i think that the one thing we're guaranteed is this is going to be a race to the, right race to the bottom, a race for qanon supporters between trump and desantis. and everybody else. that is a hard thing to come back from. remember in 2012, you mentioned obama's reelection. obama was a very tough candidate, so as mitt romney. he had to do some things in that primary that he was never going to recover from. it seemed like a gentle tide in

the past, compared to what these folks are going to do. i think that's one thing the democrats have to do a good job of, making sure that these candidates, and whoever come down that republican cesspool of a primary, pays a price for the things that they have to do along the way, in order to secure that nomination. >> personal question about joe biden. but he's a fascinating figure in many ways. one of the things that i think is interesting about him is that he has been often underestimated. i think that particularly recently, the sense is being written off. he's actually 80 years old. that's not a made-up thing about him. it does seem to have a lot of energy and vitality last night at a time when he is going to have the biggest audience that he probably will have all year. >> that's right. it was a 73-minute speech. that is an exhausting thing to deliver. watching the speech, the beginning felt like he was talking about fast, a lot of

data and numbers. he got a little extra energy around the time that he had heckling, in the back and forth of the republicans. there's no question that the advantage of it not being a quaint time of what joe wilson yielded barack obama, and everyone was like, oh my god, how could that happen? he fully expected that. they totally expected it. and so you prepare for those moments, but the intangible value for him last night's even beyond even all of these progressive policies that his candidates can be running on, and the agenda which will be valuable moving forward. maybe people will question less whether it's him for the job. >> when you look at the polling, people do question that. and again, it's this calculation, he's 80 years old. that's a lot of years. even more than what is said, the way that you said it, and the way that he performed, you're, there you're in

command. >> and he spent an hour in the chamber shaking hands, which would be exhausting forest, and we are the young bucks. >> jen psaki, whose new show is coming soon to the msnbc family on peacock, and david plouffe, thank you both very much, that was great. coming up, republicans trying to pretended they never ever wanted additional security, even though that is obviously always been the plan. president biden successful mid speech negotiation, next. iation, next ll they take you? with the capability of a 2-inch lift. ♪♪ the versatility of the available multi-flex tailgate. ♪♪ and the connection of a 13.4” diagonal touchscreen. chevy silverado. taking adventure to a whole new level. inner voice: (kombucha brewer): when i started my new kombucha business... ... i thought there would be a lot more kombucha... ...and a lot less business.

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most resonant moment of last night speech was the performative outrage from congressional republicans when president biden correctly pointed out that some in their ranks want to cut, or sunset medicare, medicaid, and social security. >> some republicans want medicare and social security sunset, i'm not saying it's a majority. anybody who downs it, contact my office, and i will give you a copy. i will give you a copy of the proposal. it means congress doesn't vote. i'm glad to see, and i'll tell, you i enjoy conversion. if congress doesn't keep the programs the way they are, i'm not saying it's a majority of you, i don't even think it's a significant -- but is being proposed by individuals.

i'm certainly not maiming them, but it's being proposed. folks, the idea is that we are not going to be moved into being threatened to default on the debt if we did not respond. a hoax, folks, as we all agree, she was a security and medicare is off the books now. all right. >> the hit dog will holler. senator mike lee of utah performed exacerbated portrayal. look at that face, he's so hurt by the suggestion.

the senator is visibly shocked, stunned that the president would suggest that republicans like himself would cut social security. are you sure about, that, mike lee? >> i am here right now to tell you one thing. you probably have never heard this from a politician. it will be my objective to phase out social security. >> my objective to phase out social security, pull it up by the roots. that sends pretty unequivocal to me. president biden was too polite to specifically in the other republicans that he was talking about, but we are not. senators rick scott of florida, and ron johnson of wisconsin, those two gentlemen. scott, who ran the failed republican attempt to retake the senate, in fact released a plan, written in print and everything, which included the provision to yes, sunset all

laws requiring them to be re-approved by congress every five years, including medicare, medicaid, and social security. here's the obvious point the republicans will not admit, if they sunset those programs, they're probably not coming back. do you really think that today's republican party, right now, would support reauthorizing a massive transformative series of social spending programs as they currently exist, without getting, changing, reforming them? of course not. scott's plane was so indefensible, even fox news took him to task for it. >> that would raise taxes on half of americans, and potentially sunset programs like medicare, medicaid, and social security. why would you propose something like that in an election year? >> that is of course the democrat talking point. >> no, that's the plan! it's in the plan! >> here's the thing about reality for a second. >> senator, hang on.

it's not a democratic talking point. it is in the plan! >> what a bizarre mario go round. nobody told rick scott he had to put at this wildly republican print, but he did, and people criticize him. now he's wounded indignant about the plan that you put out. you did it, bro. biden was right, the jeering crowd of heckler was wrong. many republicans had repeatedly said that they would cut these programs, either by raising the retirement age, which is effectively a cut to benefits in practice, or by using euphemistic language like entitlement reform, which means the same thing. >> if it was matt gaetz, i think we do need reforms to social security and medicare. >> we ought to turn everything -- >> the wealthier people are going to have to take a little bit less and benefits. younger people living longer, going to have to adjust the age probably once again. >> we can work on pre-re-prioritizing, but it's really nibbling around the

margins. if we want to talk about the debt and spending, it's the other retirement programs. >> that was six weeks ago. no, a month ago. it was a month ago. it was a month ago. what is more, the last year the republican steady committee in the house, and again, and not making this up. i'm telling you the facts. that is made up of 150 members, playing out in official budget proposal. not the cost, not on steve bannon's post podcast. a proposal gone to draft, printed out, put on a website, it would raise the retirement age to 70. nobody made them do that, this is what they want to do. it's rare that a president gets to score actual political points during a state of the union address. that's why biden seems to have found a new favorite attack line. >> they seem shocked when i raised the plans of some of their members, and their caucus to cut social security. marjorie taylor greene and others stood up, said liar,

liar! the rick scott's florida, them in the ban the u.s. senate campaign, he has a plan. he says all federal legislation sunsets every five years. if the law is worth keeping, congress can pass it again. social security, medicare, medicaid. >> the man is right. republicans want to admit, or not. o admit, o not. mouth to mission control. we have a denture problem. over. roger that. with polident cleanser and polident adhesive refresh and secure for any close encounter. if your mouth could talk it would ask for polident and poligrip. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ start your day with nature made.

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third quarter, lebron james, his made it! that's good. lebron stands alone. the nba's all-time scoring leader. >> with that bucket last night, lebron james became the highest scoring player in nba history, passing the legendary kareem abdul-jabbar. if you missed, it watching the state of the union coverage, this espn chart puts into perspective just what an awesome athletic achievement this is. look at lebron, all the way out there at the top. that is career minutes played on the x axis, career points scored on the y axis. look at lebron james, in his own universe. to be as good as lebron has been phrase long as he has been, and has no real precedent in basketball. very few other precedents other in competitive sports. i have to say, is not the physical or athletic aspects of lebron james i find most --

but it is the mental fortitude and he's display for decades. i don't know anything about what it's like to be a professional or collegiate athlete. it was not a very good high school basketball player. but i do know a little bit of what it means to be in the public eye. obviously, far smaller scale. when i got this show, all in, i was 34. fully grown men, i was married, i had a kid, i had every possible resource and privilege, i had won the lottery. and yet, i will be honest with you, i still found that the intense public scrutiny, even on the relatively script small scale that i went through. wow, it did a number on me. really, it's not natural at all to our psyches, to have strangers constantly watching, cheering or hating you, our psyche has not evolved to

handle it. our psyches are involved to have relationships with people -- reciprocal relationships. all of a sudden, you take that and introduce the admiration or hatred of strangers, and it just makes the whole thing go haywire. there is a reason that the fame drives so many people mad. this is what i find, just utterly on spiral. >> he was a child, a literal child when the world first started to notice him. i remember watching lebron play in a nationally televised high school game with a buddy of mine. he was barely 17 years old when he first appeared on the cover of sports illustrated. just listen to the kind of pressure being put on him, right after he was drafted. again, as a teenager, in 2003. >> how does it feel to know that if you are not eventually a hall of fame caliber player, it's not good enough to be just

an all-star. if you're not eventually a first round hall of famer, a lot of people will say you are a bust, or overhyped. >> how does that make me feel? >> i always go by, i take every moment at a time. you're not promised tomorrow. that's what my mom brought me, and i always say that, i'm just trying to get better every day. do what i do. >> he won the national lottery, in terms of social capital of being affluent. he had his mom, people that loved him, his friends, and he had his own strength. in a person that age, with that much pressure, it would be absolutely excused if they were crushed by it, by the celebrity, and the fame. so many are. and yet here years, 20 years removed from being that kid, wildly successful businessman who has kept his same crew around him. an active philanthropist, a

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he shouldn't be there. i didn't respect that he'd be staying there trying to shake hands with every senator and the president of the united states. given the fact that he's under ethics investigation, he should be sitting in the back row and staying quiet instead of -- in front of the president and people coming into the room. and he shouldn't be in congress. and they're going to go through the process and hopefully get him out. but he shouldn't be there. and if he had any shame at all he wouldn't be there. >> senator mitt romney republican utah responding to reporters questions about what he said to congressman george santos during this exchange as senators and other dignitaries were entering the house chamber, the president state of the union speech. santos, who lied so much during his campaign that he virtually ran as an alternate persona, is under investigation by both federal and local prosecutors. santos gave his account to a summit for reporter saying romney told him you don't belong here, to which sanders replied tell that to the

hundred and 42,000 that voted for me. romney allegedly responded, you're an ass, and santos responded with your an even bigger a whole. today santos who misrepresented his own religious background during his campaign saying that his grandparents fled hitler, they didn't, decided romney isn't living up to his faith. >> it's not the first time in history i've been told to shut up and go to the back of the room, especially about people who have come from a privileged background. it's not gonna be the. last and i'm never gonna shut up and go to the back of the room. i think it's reprehensible that the senator said that to me. it's not very mormon of him. >> senior correspondent garrett kagan saw this unfold from within the chamber and joins me. now here we had you on air last night we saw this what we saw you about this whole thing, sometimes these whole fights in politics are performance or cave to use wrestling term. this struck me as like an utterly genuine moment of genuine peek from senator mitt

romney. >> i think that's exactly right. i've known mitt romney since 2011 i think everything about george santos is the kind of thing that could set mitt romney oft and romney is always clear about what he stands for whether you agree with him or not. he's he's a father of five. i saw this as a disappointed am angry dad version of mitt romney, who saw george santos as someone who should be part of the party. i don't think someone calling someone asked his part of mitt romney's vocabulary, but the general idea here that santos is just a stain on everything mitt romney wants the republican party to represent, fell very genuine to me is someone who has covered him from her longtime, and frankly there are a lot of other republicans who are pretty happy that ronnie said what they were all thinking. the >> whole situation is so bizarre. he was elected. he clearly was elected under a bunch of false pretenses. he really did lie about almost every aspect of his bio.

but now he's there. there's a strange force field around him. you can kind of feel it. what's your move here? what do we say about this guy who doesn't feel like he's in a category of himself, of any member i can recall, although maybe you can think of a precedent? >> look, santo's cause played as a republican candidate who could play win in new york city. the way he developed his near persona, even his mother saying he survived 9/11 by being in the south tower, another thing we know wasn't true. almost designed to be a perfect new york city long island congressional candidate. since he has been in office and since the scandal has only worsened, he's really allied himself with the most pro trump faction in the republican party. i'm saying that deliberately. not the most conservative but the maga folks who, sort of a way of being, stay away from the rest of the party, they go their own way, they start their own fights, they cause they're old trouble, almost to create a

little bubble of community around himself. those may not be his natural -- and we may have no idea what george santos stands for a politically. but he is allied himself to him where he has been tweeting about the romney's change today in a way that echoes of the trumpian kind of fascination with romney as a foil. he has tried to insulate himself by having the right enemies, but i'm not sure that's ultimately going to work, certainly not with law enforcement investigations. and probably not with the ethics committee once they formally get up and running and take a look at all that is in front of them that they need to dig into when it comes to the new york congressman. >> he's also got, and you had an exchange with him today about constituents who you could say 150,000 votes, but that doesn't mean everyone in the district is very happy. polling shows an overwhelming majority wanting him to resign. there are folks organizing to that in, showing up in his office. >> yeah. there was a group yesterday of a couple of dozen constituents of george santos who traveled down from new york city to

deliver that message to him saying, you need to resign, you need to go home. sanders has kind of brought this on himself by saying that only those hundred 42,000 who elected him can tell and to go home. you mentioned the polling. it's something like 78% of voters in his district, excluding republicans, said he should resign. that's not 142, 000, but it's getting up, there chris. it's getting pretty close. he told me today, really the only substantive question that he answered from me today, and we try every day, a couple of different ways, he's a, look is the first amendment right to come down and protest him, and he encouraged it. but he says you're not going anywhere. >> garret haake i appreciate you hanging around to be on the show tonight. thank you very much. still to come, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene steaks her claim as a de facto leader of the house republicans. why that might not be the worst thing for democrats. next. next -surprise! -surprise! your dedicated fidelity advisor can help you open those doors. for you, mama. through personalized money management

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writers were going to be the republicans into a reaction, he got it. >> we need to be smart. don't take the bait. so the american public will want to. do >> speaker mccarthy seems to get you guys to -- from the present tonight. did u.s. take the bait from him? >> i don't take any bait. and the represented of the people and that's what i did last night. as a matter of fact, i got so many messages from people in my district and people across the country. it was like i won my election again. >> judge republic congresswoman marjorie taylor greene today taking exception to speaker kevin mccarthy's dismay about her garish behavior last night. the saying is, they're both right. speaker mccarthy, i think, is correct, the most of the country doesn't love marjorie taylor greene's whole schtick. and she's not wrong that are her constituents love it. some of the tactics to turn the country off. that's the central conundrum

facing republicans today. michelle goldberg is an opinion columnist for the new york times where she wrote earlier this week that biden should not run again. let's see if she should change her mind. and the founder and publisher of the eight clues letter, the author of the purse waiters, and the front lines of the fight for hearts, minds, democracy. i thought of your book because we're talking isolated but persuasion in the art of persuading and i thought marjorie taylor greene response was so honest and correct and the incentive structure is fundamental. she's not trying to persuade. anyone if it's not persuading someone it doesn't matter to her. i'm sure she did get a ton of messages. but this is the problem with essentially your national party identity being bound up with members like her when you are trying to promote some sort of national message and try to persuade people. >> yeah, she is clearly doing what others of our ilk are trying to do, which is have a minority extremist faction

complete their hijacking of the republican party. they've had a certain amount of success with this. this country is set up in ways that a minoritarian faction can have success. so what you saw last night was joe biden recognizing it and skillfully play to the opportunity that that creates for democrats to be the party of the mainstream. and that has sometimes been a tough thing for democrats to claim. it's easy to dismiss democrats as being extreme henry distribution, talking about race in ways that make certain people uncomfortable, talking about gender progress and raises make certain people uncomfortable. and democrats are often put into a corner because of fighting for progress. and i think joe biden has recognized in this powerful way that in the age of marjorie taylor greene, if you can take those ideals of progress and just reasonable lies the hell

out of them, reasonable lies, and make them as a mayor economist sounding as apple pie you can kind of claim that middle and do what is really important in politics which is to make a distinction between extremist leaders, who you isolate, and persuadable followers of those leaders, who you never give up on trying to get. >> i think that's very well said. michelle, what did you think about. and i think that was the. approach do you think it was successful? does it change your mind at all about having him as a candidate in 2024? >> i think joe biden has been a great president. i'm very worried about his age. i wrote in my reaction piece for the times that if he keeps getting speeches like that, i'll change my mind. so i certainly think that that was a, that was exactly what the white house wanted, not just joe biden's performance, but contrast with his, in a jovial, dignified demeanor and

this screeching figure on the right. i think that what anand was absolutely right. there was a long time a wrap on the democrats, that they're trapped in a bubble, but then we talk to each other. but increasingly that is really true of the republican party. you heard it in sarah huckabee sanders response to the state of the union, which was just full of the most esoteric right-wing grievances and had a line that inadvertently summed up the whole thing when she said the choice is between normal and crazy. >> that line, and a lot of politics in any kind of democrat to accepting i think often is about who is the common sense and who is the extremes, right? and part of that is just a distribution of the population. most of the people want to be in the middle. but a big old part of that,

anand, is defining what that is. that really is where the interesting part of politics happens. who gets to define what the middle? is who gets to define what the extreme is? you really do see a rhetorical approach from biden. i think all the way to the justice democrats on the left tried to claim that middle is their own as much as possible. >> yeah, and i think when you name that spectrum, i think we have to talk about the dynamic of that spectrum under the biden administration as being the most interesting thing that is enabling the thing we've been talking about. this is an age of the call out of the cancellation of hair splitting differences, even among people who are relatively friendly to each other. and under this administration, a pretty vast swath of the political left, from full-on socialists to chuck schumer and joe biden, and sometimes even a couple of democratic senators like manchin and sinema, have

actually, in this awkward, sometimes maddening way, held together enough to pass a bunch of things. and i think it comes from, above all i would say, i mean, joe biden obviously, but ron mcclain, who finished his service this week's chief of staff, someone who i got to know a little bit and who i think represented this motion that every piece of the coalition is valuable, that the people to the left of you are kind of prophetic voices who are pushing for something that you may not be pushing for but that you respect, that the centrists need to be wooed and not pissed off all the time. and there is something to this dynamic of coalition, the defining feature of this presidency. >> i think that's very apt. and michelle, the coalition stuff is the hard part for kevin mccarthy. the first run he had was a historic debacle, but you still had to do it. >> part of his problem is that i don't think that's the kind of marjorie taylor greene's of

the world really believe that they need to form a coalition because they have bought their own propaganda about them representing the quote unquote american people. >> i think that's exactly right. and i've seen people on the left do that in various iterations of my life. on the left and also get submerged underneath impenetrable jargon. it tends to be a real obstacle and getting people to agree with your ideas and move them along. we'll see how all this works out. michelle goldberg, anand giridharadas, thank you both. that's all in on this wednesday night. . >> we're gonna see how it all shakes out. thanks as always, my friend. alex you wouldn't be joining us. i am going to read some reviews of president biden's state of the union last night, and i want you to try and against the source. quote, look, he worked hard tonight, he put into words what he felt and he ended the evening far stronger than he began. give him