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tv   The Dylan Ratigan Show  MSNBC  November 17, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EST

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state, we are putting our state and local law enforcement in grave danger. >> grave danger, indeed. thanks very much for watching. dylan's here to take us forward. >> that was dylan, mary -- did you hear mary? >> sorry. dylan, you're on? >> we're just trying to work some things out. >> do you carry a concealed weapon? >> deepak says every man in america carries a concealed weapon, martin. >> the show, right, starts now? >> does the show start now? >> yes. breaking news on this national day of action for the occupy movement. we've been watching the police this afternoon storm into new york's zuccotti park. thousands of protesters continue
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to gather and assemble. the associated press reporting at least 175 arrests today alone. and we are hearing reports of violence. protesters also now planning to occupy bridges, even the subways. we will have much more on what's happening there coming up a little later in this hour. good afternoon to you. nice to see you, i am dylan ratigan. today's other big story is penn state. as more information comes out about jerry sandusky, the focus has shifted between the close ties between his charity, second mile, and penn state. former head coach joe paterno served as master of ceremonies for the charity's fund-raisers. former players as donors, and a board full of penn state alum. it gets tougher and tougher to tell where the university ends and sandusky's charity begins. here, of course, the latest example of how this scandal goes far beyond one man and into a system that exists with no accountability, at least in regard to issues like this. and now assistant coach mike mcqueary's grand jury testimony and recent e-mails are in direct
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conflict over the details of what exactly he did the day he walked in on sandusky with the young boy in '02. today mcqueary spoke briefly to nbc. >> do you feel in your heart that you did the right thing? >> again, i'm not going to go into detail about anything, but, you know, i think it's -- i think it's obvious i tried to do the right thing. >> but now reports say he participated in a charity event with sandusky just days after the alleged witnessing. these -- some of the latest twists and turns in what some are calling a labyrinth, fundamentally we're looking at a long line of betrayals. frequently by defied men that were supposed to be trusted leaders. leaders of young children, leaders of young adults, and leaders in their community. i want to bring in two men who understand those roles and their
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responsibilities, privileges and opportunities that come with that sort of leadership. former representative and u.s. admiral, joe sestak, as well as dr. deepak chopra, a renowned spiritual leader and co-author of "the shadow effect," which speaks to the dynamic of power, obedience, and self-preservation and how that can ultimately spiral out of control. as a two-star admiral, representative sestak, this must strike you in a fairly unique way, just given the responsibilities of leading communities like this? >> i honestly believe that with authority and responsibility, with both of those two goes accountability. you said the word earlier. and this lack of accountability, not just at penn state, but for decades, they covered something up. but across america is what people are most outraged about right now. they've lost faith, they've lost trust in our institutions.
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because they believe that the powerful and the connected are those that are paid attention to. and any sort of personal accountability by our leaders is absent. that's why i think why you see whether it's the tea party or the occupy wall streeters, there's this sense of outrage, justifiable, that it's undermining our sense of national unity and what leaders are supposed to be like. >> deepak, i was thinking the same thing. we're looking at the occupy protests and that sort of core rejection of what people articulate as a breach of integrity on some level. how do you sort of integrate all the breaches of integrity that we see around us, this perhaps being one of the most disturbing, but by no means the only one. >> this is disturbing and this, obviously, there are crimes committed here and they should be prosecuted. and the legal structure has to do its thing. but we have to go to a deeper level to recognize that right now we're looking at the americans in a big way.
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we are a country that's been at war for over 100 years. we have a country where 1% have the privilege and 99%, occupy wall street people are struggling. we have a country where we have no real health care. we have a country where these kinds of supposed happen. we're not looking deeply at our collective shadow. >> what do you think? >> the human nature is diabolical. and everybody has a shadow. it's the dark side, it's the primitive. it's the demon in the angel. it's the diabolical in the devine, it's the profanity in the sacred. they say if you don't have a shadow, you're probably in darkness. if you're in light, you have a shadow. authority on one side and obedience on the other side. authority says i can do whatever i want, and obedience says i can submit to anything i want.
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>> or i have to. >> or i must. so this is the shadow that comes out when there are these power structures, when there is religious authority, as in the catholic church, we saw the shadow. when there is poor leadership, in war, it happens, in the military. and this situation is very much military in a sense. as the admiral said, you need definitely to have accountability. but if you really want to understand the deeper causes of this, including the polarization that's occurring in politics right now, then we all have to look within ourselves. we have to look at ourselves, because this is all a projection of our collective denial of who we are. >> what do you think about all that, admiral? >> well, maybe i could put it in a different way, how i believe. i think we're in a fight right now across this great nation for the character of america. our character has always been best marked by a wonderful alliance between rugged
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individualism and the common enterprise, the common wheel. take the military, which is merely a reflection of our society. s.e.a.l. team 6, rugged individuals, but they came together for the greater effort, willing to sacrifice for that. understand that there's no service greater than serving others above yourself. i think we've lost that a bit here because of our leaders, who have left people down. this sense that we have here in america, everyone striving for the american dream, but always measuring their individual achievement as part of the greater effort, that our collective resources provided ladders and rungs on those ladders for the opportunity that you can contribute to all of america to go forward, we're losing that. because leaders actually feel they shouldn't be held accountable. on wall street, corporation leadership. leadership of both parties. who wants to be accountable for what happened on wall street? and that feeling is why people
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are starting to step back and say, what's going on here? and that's why we're having outsiders who are making greater achievements than those who are in charge of our institutions. who says the tea party doesn't have influence? even though i may disagree with them. >> yep. yeah, no. across the board. you write in your book "the shadow effect," deepak, which speaks to this. you say, "the dark side of human nature thrives on war, struggle, and conflict. as soon as you talk about winning, you have lost already." what does that mean? >> it means that you have a dualistic nature and you're fighting the wars within you. and unless you acknowledge this part of yourself, you know, where there is unconditional love, there could also be forbidden lust. unless you recognize that, unless you share it with other people, unless you embrace it, and unless you even find the gift in it -- you know, i have an addictive personality, for example. and long ago, i decided i would
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use that energy to move from spirits to spirit. and i did it. i used the same energy for the greater good and for my own benefit. and so everyone can do that. you see? because -- >> but the interesting thing -- i'm sorry to interrupt you, but you're saying, point-blank, that you have to the acknowledge the diabolical energy is part of all the human experience, and not deny its existence -- >> but this is pathological manifestation of that. if you ignore it, it says, you're ignoring me, i'm going to embarrass you, i'm going to get you into trouble. so it was ignored. it was ignored by the assistant coach, it was ignored by all the people, it was ignored by positions in authority. and why? because the institutional structure become much more important that the lives of innocent people. >> absolutely. i mean, he has a wonderful point there. you know, i watch our parties. it's about whether our institutions and the reality
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within that institution is what is furthered. rather than the reality in which people on the outside of the institutions, whether their reality is improved by the leaders. it's what happened in the arab spring. a tunisian street peddler, who had his goods of his labor stolen from him set himself afire and the whole middle east ablaze because the institutions weren't taking care of the person. and that to some degree, in a much less violent way, is why people here in america are much more concerned and why it's more of an anti-incumbent year than an anti- or pro-republican or democrat. >> as the admiral said, what happened in the arab spring and what's happening in occupy wall street, these are manifestations of the collective rage in our collective consciousness that we've had. and in fact, the eruption of this scandal is going to also create a collective rage that is hopefully going to self-correct
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these. >> will you come back and talk to us about reconciliation? >> i will. >> because if the energy is flowing, i would love to have both of you back. very interesting to have the two of you together. >> if you could keep just this moment, because a mob pointing fingers and that's all we do, without going to the underlying causes, we'll only perpetuate this. >> admiral, it's always a pleasure. thank you so much for your time. >> good to see you again. >> thank you. deepak, thank you. joe paterno and the search for zeus we published today on it is our latest blog. you can head there and check it out whenever you so well please. coming up here on "the d.r. show," breaking news on this day of action. downtown, violent clashes, dozens of arrests marking the two-month anniversary of the occupy movement. a full report to come. plus, you don't know jack. a one-on-one interview with notorious ex-lobbyist jack
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well, this week a big one in the campaign to get money out. as we told you on tuesday on this show, we have magnified the power of the movement through the benefit of joining forces in an expanding circle, the
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democracy fund, coming together with us to create united republic. and if we have learned one thing in this process, it is that we are not alone in our desire to get money out. from the halls of congress to the streets of new york, out across this great land, russell simmons, just the other day, out with his amendment to get money out of politics. the sound grows louder each and every day. and democratic senator from rhode island, sheldon whitehouse, is a co-sponsor of legislation related to this issue, specifically focused on overturning the citizens united ruling. he joins now. senator whitehouse, one of the big distinctions in this conversation is the amendment you're involved with really says, doesn't set rules for money in politics, it says that congress should set those rules. is that correct? >> absolutely. it says that corporations should not be above the rules of the american people when it comes to spending their corporate treasuries to influence american elections. >> i want to read you a quote
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from lawrence lessig at harvard, who has his version of an amendment, one of the constitutional scholars, and there's a lot of folks, as we know, in this conversation, but professor lessig, certainly one of the more respected. he said referring to your amendment, "this proposal is just the latest verse in a very tired song. once again, the answer to the problem of campaign finance is to just say no, limit contributions, limit independent expenditures, limit soft money. no, no, no." before you feel victimized, this applies to the amendment we published under jimmy will wria and a lot of others. what do you say to lessig who says you need an actual plan to fix it? you can't just say this or no. >> it's a very hard problem to fix campaign finance as an across-the-board issue. but you can certainly go after the worst and most pernicious
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excesses in the campaign finance world, and the notion that the founding fathers would have felt that corporations which barely existed at the time of the founding -- of the country, have an unlimited right under our human first amendment right to spend as much money as they want in corporate spending on our federal elections and to do so anonymously is, i think, the kind of wild excess that is worth targeting, even if you don't have the perfect solution to the entire campaign finance dilemma. that is something that i think most americans can can agree on. this is something we've got to clean up and get out from under if we're going to continue to have a democracy that's run by the people and not by huge corporate interests that can megaphone everybody else out of the public square with the volume of their spending. >> and i think i can speak pretty confidently on behalf of
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the quarter-million people that have signed the get medicine out petition, that myself and we are all encouraged by the escalating nature of this debate. the fact that you exist, that this amendment exists, that these conversations are happening at all i think is remarkably encouraging, considering where we are. let me just continue with professor lessig, who indicts your amendment, he indicts my amendment and everybody else who says, you just have to stop this nonsense with his proposal. so here's the lessig solution. he says, we need to push, as a country, for small contributions in campaigns, specifically $50 vouchers, where, effectively, no one can give more than 50 bucks. doesn't matter who you are, what you are, whatever it is. voters get a $50, what he calls, democracy voucher. the voucher comes from the federal taxes, effectively. candidates can only accept the $50 citizens' vouchers. and there's no other source of
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money. obviously, you and i are not going to solve this today on television, and i'm not expecting you to provide a thorough analysis of that proposal. but when you look at people who tie to manage this process, what do you find the most encouraging, what do you find the most discouraging? and if you have a thought on the vouchers, feel free. >> look, there are a lot of good ideas out there on campaign finance reform. they all have to be looked at closely, because my experience after working for 20 years on campaign finance reform is that the unintended consequences can be really significant and the devil is really in the details. and so once you get down to that level, you know, it's a long slog and it's a lot of hard work and you've really got to get it right. but we can't allow that to distract us from the rhinoceros in the room, that corporations have an unlimited right to spend
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anonymously in our election, run up behind a phony baloney corporate front, americans for prosperity, or whatever they call, there's no voices to it and it's really bad for our democracy. and all those other ideas are great and i don't want to diminish any of them. but when you've got something as big as this rhinoceros in the room, you've got to solve it. you've got to fight it. this was not america as the founding fathers intended. >> i could not -- i think a lot of us could not agree with you, senator, more. and i like the idea of the rhinoceros. i might even make the rhinoceros angry with a bad case of ind indigesti indigestion. he's definitely in the room. senator, a pleasure. and my other favorite name, by the way, americans for america. if you're looking for a super pac name, i like, americans for america, by americans for america. good to see you.
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i want to bring in the thursday megapanel. you have to be encouraged by the escalating nature of the conversation about getting money out. >> i'm just thrilled that everybody's got an amendment at this point. and the great news is that six months ago, nobody -- oh, wait, except for you and i were talking about amending the constitution to stop the crap that's happening in washington, d.c. now a lot of people are, incomiincome ing russell simmons, et cetera, et cetera, senator udall. this is good news. we don't all agree on how to get to rome, but you're going to get to rome. you're going to have jack abramoff on this program right after us. what is the difference -- maybe you can ask him this question. what's the difference between a $25 or a $100 donation from a grandmother in iowa, is there a quid pro quo that's accompanied with that, and a $25 million donation to a super pac from the koch brothers or warren buffett? because i'm pretty sure that the quid pro quo is still a quid pro
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q quo. >> i'll ask him. sus susan, your thoughts? >> i agree with jimmy. whether you agree or disagree with your amendment, it cuts it off. it says, money does not equal speech. we've heard different proposals, they're the ones that want to weg la regulate themselves. that's a formula for disaster. >> look at how that turned out. and penn state did that. >> maybe we're just cynical at this point. >> no, penn state regulated itself, that's all working out so well. >> quae. >> i agree with you, it is the right thing to have this conversation. as we know, when citizens united first, the decision fest came out down, a lot of what freaked so many of us out was this idea, money as speech. but the amount of money that we know is going to be spend and the fact that we have no idea who these people are spending this money, so in theory, literally, you have corporations buying politicians. i know that there are those,
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that there are ways they already do that, but my god, maybe politicians should have to -- if we can't get the amendment passed, maybe they should have to wear on race cars, have the patches, so at least you know who is paying for whom. >> exactly. >> but you're right. i've got to say, one of the things -- and this keeps coming back. i noticed what lessig didn't like about what you guys have proposed, i again, just think it's simpler to say, no money, period. not 50 bucks, not this, not that. why create a whole another bureaucracy of deciding who's paid their $50 and who hasn't? >> listen, i understand -- and there is a counter argument that goes to the incumbency bias, where if i'm running and you're running, karen and you're the incumbent and i'm the challenger and we have the same money that you inherently have an incumbency bias, so you'd theoretically have to have more money to offset the incumbency bias. you could spend all night at harvard talking about it. and maybe it's worth doing that. i don't mean to diminish the
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relevance of that, but i'm running out of time. coming up, back to the breaking news downtown. occupy wall streeters on the move. that, a live picture here in new york city, now occupying or planning to occupy bridges and subways. what is next for an expanding and now changing movement? we'll talk about it after the break. it's like having portable navigation, a bluetooth connection, a stolen-vehicle locator, roadside assistance, and something that could help save your life -- automatic help in a crash. it's the technology of five devices in one hardworking mirror. because life happens while you drive. for a limited time, get an onstar fmv mirror for only $199 after a $100 off. visit for retailers. i'm making my money do more. i'm consolidating my assets. i'm not paying hidden fees or high commissions. i'm making the most of my money. and seven-dollar trades are just the start.
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on the breaking news this afternoon, from coast to coast, in this country, occupy protesters are holding a national day of action to mark the two-month anniversary since the start of that movement in zuccotti the park in lower manhattan. the images streaming in of demses in more than a dozen cities. among the largest taking place here in new york, l.a., also a very large occupation along with portland, oregon. here in new york, you could call it a day of disruption rather than occupation. as we speak, protesters have started to march on new york city subways, where more than 5 million people ride the train every day, although i'm is not
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sure how many 1%er ers are on t bridge. hundreds flooded the streets outside the new york stock exchange. we did hear from mayor bloomberg that 177 protesters have been arrested so far. seven police officers injured. meantime, on the other coast, l.a., hundreds blocked an intersection between the bank of america tower and the wells fargo plaza before police intervened. at least 20 folks in los angeles were arrested. the mega panel is with us. karen, susan, and jimmy. it appears, karen, whatever people think of the occupation that the occupation's energy two months on is surging, not diminishing. >> i think that's right. although i would say the one thing that i know that are on the minds of some of the occupiers, it's a little bit of what we talked about earlier in
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this week, is that we shouldn't get too caught up in the physicality of the movement, because if this is going to be a real movement for social change, at some point, it's also, we've got to broaden that out to this conversation that we've been having about the 99% and the 1%, and sort of, in effect, what that means for this country and the loss of fairness in this country. the one thing i hope is that the physical protests don't cause people to lose sight of what is a very important message in terms of, you know, 1% controlling the destiny of 99% of us. >> yeah. it's interesting when you look at it the -- and you and i talk about this a lot, you know, before we come out here sometimes, susan, you are not predisposed to be hugely sympathetic to the protests themselves. you are very sympathetic to the principles that they are
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advocating. >> mm-hmm. >> if you were queen for the day, how would you encourage these people to manifest their physical rage and frustration in a way that you think is in alignment with the principles? >> one thing i think they actually did do very well today is show you don't need zuccotti park. they went nationwide. that's important to say, look, you really department need zuccotti park. with all the turmoil we had earlier this week, you didn't need it. so one thing they do need, and this is something we disagree, is more of a message. they want to be able to translate what they want to who they want it from. and they're not going to get it from wall street. they're going to get it on pennsylvania avenue. >> and that was henry blodgett's point today. he published a piece saying he's a little bit tired of the occupation. and henry is somebody who is tremendously supportive of their principles and all the issues.
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his point was, it's time to occupy congress because congress is the one that is allowing itself to be bought off. the banks are exploiting their ability to buy off the congress to make themselves rich, but the rubber hits the road where the fund-raising checks cross the desk in washington, d.c. do you agree with that? occupy congress? >> look, i think if you want -- mayor bloomberg kicking everybody out of zuccotti might have been the best thing that could possibly happen to this movement. >> i agree with that. >> if you want to make the 1% hurt, don't give politicians money when barack obama, who i like and respect, when he e-mails you and asks you for 25 bucks, say no. when these protesters leave, don't go to the grocery store and buy brawny paper towels. you know why? because the koch brothers own brawny paper towels. don't go to places and spend money if you really want to make
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these people and the 1% suffer, stop giving them your frickin' money. because i guarantee you, they'll suffer. >> true enough, but -- yeah, go ahead, karen. >> i was going to say, i agree with jimmy on that, but the practical strategist in me says, you also are, as you've talking about, fundamental problems with our system. the only way we are going to change our system, part of it is the money, but part of it is that i hope that a lot of the people who were involved in this movement actually run for office themselves and try to fix -- because we've got to fix the system both from within and from without. the outside pressure is very important, but, again, part of what will change these systems -- i actually agree with susan. people on pennsylvania making it happen. >> let's talk about inside the system for a moment. as we talk about all this outside the system. we are counting down to the super committee in washington, d.c. six days left right now, all signs point to failure.
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>> we have met their offer on revenue, but we have said that it has to be fair to the american people and done in a way that doesn't put the burden on working families and addresses the issues of getting people back to work. >> i am unaware of any offer or any idea from any democrat that did not include the minimum of $1 trillion or more of tax increases. >> well, democrats, republicans, and the white house are now preparing for plan "b" and looking for ways around the trigger they built for themselves if they don't reach a deal. the trigger was there force them to reach a deal, but if they don't reach a deal, they have to get rid of the trigger. it all comes down wednesday night before thanksgiving. there's the number adding more steam to the pressure cooker. u.s. debt, throw a party tonight if you're in america, has officially topped $15 trillion, that's a "t," trillion. if you spent a million dollars
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every day since jesus christ was born, you would not have spent $1 trillion today, plus you wouldn't be alive. is there any path that anybody on this panel can point me to that the super committee get that is well received by the american people? >> nope. >> raise your hands. >> nobody raising their hands. has anybody on today's mega panel met somebody who they respect and/or admire who holds a point of view that that sort of resolution may emerge from the super committee. really? >> ehh. >> what's the most optimistic anything anybody's heard? what's the most optimistic characterization that you've heard? >> that they may delay it and come back to it and hopefully reach a deal before they -- >> that they can buy some time. >> but how is that -- >> susan? >> i'm not saying it's optimistic. >> i'm asking for a hypothesis. >> but kicking the can down the
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road is not something serious. >> we know it's not serious if there's not a countdown clock on the television. >> jimmy, last word. >> so, tomorrow, everybody should know that the government runs out of money, so they've got to pass a short-term continuing resolution. and next wednesday, the day before bird day, they'll have to figure out whether they're going to let the sequestration go into effect, or they're going to come up with $1.2 trillion out of $15 trillion to cut the deficit. it's a joke. it's laughable. do i think they'll do something? i bet they will do something. i bet they will come up with $1.2 to $1.5 trillion, and if they don't, they'll have to slash the department of defense. that's why they'll do it. very quick. >> i know you guys don't agree with me on this, but we have to be able to have an honest discussion that it is about the revenue side and the spending side. the way the conversation is happening right now is ridiculous. >> yes. we'll leave it on that. i think ridiculous is the right place to leave this. nice to see you guys. are you guys all here next
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tuesday? >> yeah. >> yeah! >> i don't know if i had to do some advance holiday wishes or something. jimmy, karen, susan, see you next week. and next up here, eat your veggies, and by veggies, i mean pizza. i'll tell you about our congress's big accomplishment this week. ♪ sen♪ co-signed her credit card - "buy books, not beer!" ♪
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♪ut the second at she shut the door ♪ ♪ girl started blowing up their credit score ♪ ♪ she bought a pizza party for the whole dorm floor ♪ ♪ hundred pounds of makeup at the makeup store ♪ ♪ and a ticket down to spring break in mexico ♪ ♪ but her folks didn't know 'cause her folks didn't go ♪ ♪ to free-credit-score-dot-com hard times for daddy and mom. ♪ v.o.: offer applies with enrollment in how about making it brighter. more colorful.
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it's not democracy, it's digiorno. >> it would be funny if it wasn't true. jon stewart taking a bite out of congress on our favorite topic, money in politics and the selling of our government at auction. the latest headline, house republicans insisting that tomato sauce on pizza and french fries are akin to carrots and celery sticks. ie, they are vegetables for children. as part of the latest short-term spending bill, our lawmakers, your representatives, you pay them, god bless you, would deny funding, so do it, funding to their new, healthier school meal standards proposed by the usda to tackle childhood obesity. those standards called for increasing the number of fruits and veggies and limiting the number of starchy foods in schools like french fries because they make kids fat. they would have ended the days where less than a cup of tomato
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sauce counts as a vegetable, but lawmakers listened to a reported $5.6 million, who knew it was so cheap, lobbying money from the powerhouse groups, the potato growers, the salt industry, and the food companies that produce frozen pizza. that's who your congressman works for, obviously. the explanation is that the changes would simply be too expensive. having healthy children who aren't fat and don't have the highest diabetes rate in the world, it just costs too much. well, in honor of tomato paste being named a vegetable, we here at the dylan ratigan show ordered pizza with cheese, pepperoni, chicken, sausage, and mushroom. and wouldn't you know it, the last two lonely slices left were the only ones with actual vegetables on them. next, a man who knows a thing or two about gaming the system, one on one with former lobbying super villain, jack abramoff, and who he's calling out for corruption now. >> he is doing -- he's engaged
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in the exact kind of corruption that america disdains. the very things that anger the tea party movement and the occupy wall street movement and everybody who's not in a movement and watches washington. of a role in my own life, but with advair, i'm breathing better so now i can take the lead on a science adventure. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator, working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. if you're still having difficulty breathing, take the lead. ask your doctor if including advair
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>> strategic advice is i guess what they call it now. he's running for president and rising in the polls. but former speaker newt gingrich's is also a corrupt example of how the revolving door helps washington. gingrich says he's never lobbied, but just months after le leaving congress, his con summiting firm, the gingrich group, took in more than $1.5 million from the now taxpayer owned mortgage giant, freddie mac, the very same freddie mac who along with fannie mae is blamed by conservatives like newt gingrich is a primary driver of the housing crisis. maybe it was newt's consulting that did it. newt says he was paid as a historian, but where is the line between consulting and lobbying? and should former lawmakers be allowed to do either? i think we both know the answer. one of the nation's most notorious and powerful lobbyists, jack abramoff, says no way. >> this is exactly what i'm talking about. people who come to washington,
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who have public service, and they cash in on it. and they use their public service and their access to make money. and, unfortunately, newt gingrich is one of them who's done it. >> mr. abramoff joins us now. after nearly four years in prison for mail fraud, conspiracy, and buying political favorites, jack is now fighting the very same corruption he once went to prison for. without ending the revolving door, can you end the conflict of interest? >> no. i don't think you can. i think the revolving door has to be shut permanently. people who serve should never be allowed to cross that line. >> your new book is called capital punishment. the hard truth about washington corruption from america's most notorious lobbyist. in a nutshell, what's the hard truth? >> well, the hard truth is that nobody's reforming this system. people are basically carrying on as they always did. my scandal was supposed to be the scandal to end scandals as far as this goes and there would be real reform. i went off to prison, but shoving me into the prison
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didn't seem to actually solve anything. and i think what it gets down to is this system is messed up. and things have to be done that are dramatic to fix it. >> it's interesting, as you said that, i was thinking about bernie madoff and wall street and how much pleasure there was in sending bernie madoff to jail for his ponzi scheme. no one questions it was a ponzi scheme. and yet wall street perpetuates itself. there's a certain sense that getting jack abramoff in some ways fixed washington, even though you didn't have to do anything to fix washington. how do you interpret -- how do i praise this? what do you make of those of us like myself, and i've got a quarter million other folks with the get money out petition growing, russell simmons, the committee for economic development, it's the strangest group of bedfellows, jack, i've ever seen in my entire life. but everybody wants the same thing. they want the separation of business and state. what would you make of the amendment language? how would you write an amendment that would prevent you from being able to do what you once did? >> i haven't thought through how
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i would write the amendment, and obviously, it has to be very carefully done. and i have to tell you, when i was a lobbyist, we were very precise and very careful in hiding what we were doing, in terms of the stuff. i think it has to be done very well. for me, what i would like to see happen is that anybody who is lobbying, anybody who is at the government trough, anybody who is getting contracts or any benefit of that kind that the rest of us don't get should not be allowed to give one dollar of any kind politically. and that would be the kind of reform i would think in terms of the specific thing that i'm focused on, which is corruption among the lobbyists and the rest. i think that would do well. >> understood. well, listen, i would love to stay in touch with you to get your point of view of any sort of proposed amendment as the get money out coalition develops. i think that would be very useful. >> thank you. >> let's talk about nevada and the housing mess and fannie mae and freddie mac and the government and the banks. yesterday wix it was, nevada attorney general, catherine cortez masto indicted the first group of people on felony charges, criminal charges, for robo calling, again -- robo
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signing, excuse me. there's a couple of mug shots for you. they were basically seen as mid-level folks. in all, 606 felony charges. how much of the housing mess do you believe was created, a, by money in politics, and b, how do you interpret this first batch of indictments of mid-level folks on housing when i'm sure a lot of folks would like to see more senior-level people getting hit. >> sorry, dylan, we had a technical glitch here. >> can you hear me now, jack? >> i can. i'm sorry. >> money and politics in the housing mess, how much of money in politics drive us into the housing mess, and your interpretation of mid-level indictments in nevada on housing felony charges for robo signing and whether we'll see charges that go beyond mid-level nevada robo designers to higher-level housing executives? >> well, in terms of the money, i think frankly money's driving
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every one of our problems. i think money for sure is creating each one of these -- whenever you have the special interests who are gaining access, frankly through lobbyists like i used to be and others of that ilk, you're going to have problems, wherever it s is. so i think the must be's for sure problem. in terms of who gets indicted, people looked at my scandal and said, you have a bunch of low-level and mid-level people gets indicted and where all the congressmen, sometimes it's very difficult to get the congressmen because there are rules congressmen have put in place to protect themselves. the system is so corrupt up and down that going after this stuff is tough. >> no wonder we've got an occupation, a tea party, and god know what comes next, jack. a pleasure to make the acquaintance. and i am hopeful to continue this get money out conversation with you, because i think your input could be invaluable. >> thank you. >> thank you. jacques abramoff. again, how's this for a resume. author, that's nice, your mother would be pride, convicted felon,
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and world lobbyist, that could go either way. jack, thank you. chris matthews also talking about newt gingrich next on "hardball." his rise to the top of the republican pack. and as chris says, his serial hypocrisy. but first, bribing, lying, with and gaming the system, jeff chrysler with some serious satire, next. ♪ [ female announcer ] who'd have thought that the person you'd grow up to be -- how creative or confident or kind --
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time for this week in cheating. jeff chrysler is here. have you heard of these people? >> i read about them a little. i'm very upset about them being
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cleared out, because they cleared out the library. they destroyed the library, and my book was down there, "get rich cheating" was down there, and i though it was a great opportunity to get more customers to hire me. i wanted to exploit the movement, sort of like the talentless j lesless lesless j. bloomberg will get shushed by the weight of history, the inevitable march of change. >> can i move on? >> i have a suggestion, how the li library can survive? sponsorship. the library needs to be sponsored by the amazon kindle. >> maybe the banks should be sponsoring the protests. do you think the kids would take that? >> i think i would. >> in a sense, the banks are sponsoring them by pissing everybody off so much. a lot to talk about this week on the insiders front. this whole thing about being an insider seems to be very
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beneficial. >> thanks for having jack abramoff on, i love that guy. i love the old guy. i don't know who you had. he was very confusing. but there was a big story as you covered earlier about the congresspeople getting inside information, making money. i wanted to spell a couple myths about insider trading. first of all, insider trading does not always involve darrel han hanna. i was confused in the '80s about that movie. and second of all, it's about information. the myth of the market is that readily accessible information helps the invisible hand put supply and demand in equilibrium. the truth is, secret guarded information has the invisible hand give most people one select figure. those in congress know to use that finger to punch in their atm code, 1776. you know you want to get money out, but i think we should have more money in. i think we should have congressmen have bonus-based pay. they get a bonus if the economy is doing good. i think we would have a lot more
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tax revenue if republicans got a cut. >> finally, the republican presidential field. you say we should take them seriously, just not as candidates. >> they're serious business people. if you look at america, what's the number one business? it's not cars, it's stars. publicity is king and queen. and we get upset about kardashian's fake marriage, but not the fake financial reform. and i think sarah palin, whatever you think of her politics, she's a genius, she showed the the way. she's making millions with speaking engagements and she can't speak. so these other candidates, and i don't want to be partisans, if there were democrats running, they'd be doing it to, these republican candidates are just trying to get police to make money. you can go down the list, everybody talks about herman cain trying to sell books and do a tv show. who else is there? >> rick perry. >> rick perry, he and michele bachmann are going to be a comedy duo, all in the family. >> and we have newt gingrich with his recent contributions to american housing. >> he wants to get well-paid jobs a historian


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