tv Martin Bashir MSNBC July 9, 2013 4:00pm-5:00pm EDT
the george zimmerman trial continues today with the second full day of defense witnesses. it's been dominated by the evidence of forensic pathologist dr. vincent di maio. the jury was not called into the court until 10:30 this morning so the defense could hear arguments about whether an animated depiction of george zimmerman describing the shooting was allowed to be seen. let's go now to msnbc's craig melvin who has been following the trial in sanford. craig, we just had via video link the testimony of elloise dilligard, who was a resident in the twin lakes area and knew george zimmerman as a member of neighborhood watch. >> reporter: yeah, and martin, what you just said is about all we've gotten so far out of elloise dilligard, again, a
residents there in the same gated condo complex as george zimmerman. she is testifying via facetime because she is under the weather. again, at this point not exactly sure how her testimony is going to fit into the larger defense strategy here, but elloise dilligard, she's been on the stand now for about 5 or 10 minutes. we also found out just before she began to testify, martin, that according to mark o'mara, she is going to be the defense's last witness. mark o'mara was saying right before he called ms. dilligard to the stand that this would be the last witness. they will, of course, have that hearing that you alluded to right after she testifies, and then they also have to spend some time talking about two other witnesses. but there seems to be at this point, at least, a pretty good chance the defense will wrap its case tomorrow, and of course both sides would then begin making its closing arguments shortly thereafter. the hearing you just alluded to, the hearing on this particular
animation, that consumed the better part of the morning, a hearing that was supposed to take about 30 minutes. >> craig, i've got to interrupt you briefly and politely, because ms. dilligard is about to give evidence once again, so we're going back to the courtroom. but do stay with us, craig. >> no, then he asked me my name and i gave it to him and i gave him my phone number. >> okay. and then -- now we move back to the time you were in the area of the event. went back looking for mrs. zimmerman, didn't find her and left the second time? >> correct. >> okay. at some point, then, did you give statements to law enforcement regarding what you knew or heard about the event? >> yes. there was an fbi agent who left a card on my door and requested
i call him, so i called. >> okay. >> and he and another agent came to my house and interviewed me. >> and you gave them a statement about whatever information they asked you about, i presume? >> that is correct. >> okay. at some point, did you have an opportunity to listen to what we call in this trial the wower 911 tape? and for your purposes, that is the tape that has these voices in the background screaming for help. have you had an opportunity to listen to that? >> yes. >> okay. can you tell me the circumstances of the setting around the first time that you listened to it? >> the first time i heard it was
when it was played on a local newschannel. >> were you around anybody else? >> i don't remember. >> how many times have you listened to the tape? >> besides that time, well, it was played over and over, but i would probably say maybe two or three times. >> okay. did you hear a voice screaming for help in the background that you were able to recognize or identify? >> i heard the voice screaming in the background. s two we're discussing, trayvon martin and george, i only heard george talk. >> okay. whose voice do you believe that was in the background screaming for help? >> based on the fact i've only heard george's voice and it's a light male voice, i would say that it was his. >> by his, you mean who?
>> george zimmerman. >> when you say you've heard him talk, tell us again about how long you've known him? >> by that time, it was two and a half years. >> an opportunity to hear him both speak to you and speak to others in your presence? >> that is correct. >> ever hear him yell for his dog or laugh at a joke or anything like that that you can recall? >> never heard him yell at the dog. i mean, whatever commands he gave the dog were very, you know, just like a voice talking to someone next to you, but again, from what i heard, he has a light male voice. >> i'm going to ask you, then, i'm going to try something that may work. i'm going to show you an exhibit, state's exhibit 1, and just see if there's any chance
this can be done in a way where you can identify the picture. and then i'm going to have you try and walk us through a location where you may have seen george zimmerman's truck, okay? >> okay. >> so what you're seeing now should be blocked pretty soon by a picture. can you see that picture? >> i can see the picture. >> okay. let's just see if this works in any form or fashion. >> you need to bring it up a little. it's going out of my focus. >> let me try something else, then. >> that's better. >> okay. for you, maybe. hold on one second. >> sure. >> does that work? can you at least -- >> that works. >> all right. i'm going to move it a little bit to an area.
>> unless we start talking about mirror images, your honor, that's not going to work, so i'll continue on the area of inquiry. ms. dilligard, i'm going to try to do verbally what we were just going to do visually and ask you this. you are familiar with the complex, correct? >> i am. >> you sort of gave us a drive-through of how you entered into the complex. can you tell me what entrance you came into that night? >> i came in the entrance that is directly from the elementary school. >> and is that the one that when you drive in, you have the clubhouse immediately in front of you and just to your right? >> that is correct. >> okay. from that point, and i know we're testing your memory since you don't live there anymore, but from that point, as you're coming in oregon, i know that you took a sort of back route over to your complex because you
took a right on retreat view circle, correct? when you first came in. >> if you say the back route, then you're talking about the part of oregon that goes up to 46th or thomas. >> i confused you by saying that. my understanding -- one moment. sorry about that. can you hear me? >> that's okay. i can hear you. >> i think i confused my question a moment ago. my understanding was that when you first came into your subdivision, you realized that there was some crime scene tape, correct?
>> correct. >> as you're coming into the main entrance with the clubhouse off to your right, which way was the crime scene tape from where you were driving in? >> to the left or to the east. >> okay. and that would have been -- is that the normal way you would go from that main entrance to your residence, you would go to the left? >> no. i would go to the right. >> okay. all right. now, what i would like to do is start at the oregon main entrance with the clubhouse on your right, and if you can, sort of walk or drive us to the area where you did drive up to see -- to get a better view of the area of the crime scene itself. >> if i were to drive into the
entrance that was directly across from the elementary school, i would have made a left rather than a right to go down to where the crime scene was. >> okay. and where on that scene, then, would you have seen george's truck? >> it wasn't even .3 of a mile down, because it's not that far. >> do you have a present memory today as to where the truck was? >> it was parked on retreat view circle just to the left of where you're talking about the t area was. >> okay. let me ask it this way. i'm going to refresh your recollection with some testimony, potentially. could the truck have been parked not on retreat view circle but on the second street in so
that -- you know the second street in i'm talking about? >> that's right. yes. >> you don't take your first left on retreat view circle, but you take your second left onto twin trees? >> right, twin trees lane, i believe it is. >> could that be the street you turned down and saw mr. zimmerman's truck? >> it could have been. all i know is that it was on one of those curves. >> okay. that's okay. nonetheless, wherever that truck was, it was your testimony that it was directly in front of, maybe a touch off to the right, of what we've identified as ms. lauer's townhome? >> yes. >> so if we were to use ms. lauer's townhome as the focal point, you would look out her front door and look just to the right to see george zimmerman's truck, where it sat that night? >> that is correct. >> can i have a moment, your
honor? >> judge: yes, you may. >> we've been listening to testimony via video link from elloise dilligard who lived in the twin lakes area. she says she was a friend of george zimmerman's. she knew that he was a member of the neighborhood watch program in that area. the defense team are just taking time for a brief discussion. they've been talking about the direction she took when she entered that region following the incident. lisa, what is the value of elloise dilligard's testimony to the defense? >> well, she said in kind of a weak way that it was george zimmerman's voice that she heard on the call. it was a light male voice, that's how she identified it, and she's talking about the positioning of george zimmerman's truck. and that's significant because the question is, did he park his truck and did he walk for a relatively long period of time
following trayvon martin, or did he park, get out and was immediately confronted by trayvon martin or he confronted trayvon martin depending on who you believe. but this testimony is pretty con voluntary lieutenant convoluted, and just as we're wondering about the significance of this testimony, the jury probably is, too. >> sure. the defense is trying to define precisely where the vehicle is parked. she originally suggested it's in one road, but we hear the defense attorney there trying to suggest the vehicle may have been parked on a different route, on twin peaks road. why is he trying to suggest that that may be where the vehicle was parked? >> well, for the defense, it's all about corroborating george zimmerman's story. and we understand that the truck was not secured by law enforcement. it may have been moved, and therefore, where the truck ended up may not have been where zimmerman parked it. again, depending on who you believe in this case. so the defense is just using this witness to get this little
piece of information. >> lisa bloom, thank you very much. the prosecution is now cross examining elloise dilligard. we're going to take a brief break. much more from the trial of george zimmerman when we come back. really just need "kid-pro" softsprings got both, let me show you. right over here. here, feel this. wow, that's nice. wow. the soft carpets have never been this durable. you know i think we'll take it. get kid-friendly toughness and feet-friendly softness, without walking all over your budget. he didn't tell us it would do this. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now, get whole-home installation for just 37 bucks. wi drive a ford fusion. who is healthier, you or your car? i would say my car. probably the car. cause as you get older you start breaking down. i love my car. i want to take care of it. i have a bad wheel - i must say. my car is running quite well. keep your car healthy with the works. $29.95 or less after $10 mail-in rebate
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we are continuing with our coverage of the george zimmerman trial, and joining us now live from sanford is msnbc's craig melvin. craig, we just had elloise dilligard giving testimony via video link. she is a former neighbor of george zimmerman's. she acknowledged that she knew he was a member of the neighborhood watch scheme. is she the final witness that's going to be brought by the defense? >> reporter: according to mark o'mara shortly before she testified, martin, yeah.
he said they needed to proffer two additional witnesses, but for all intents and purposes, the witness we just saw there could very well be the last witness for the defense. that came from his own mouth shortly before he called elloise dilligard. >> that would mean then, obviously, we're not going to hear from george zimmerman and we're also not going to hear from his wife, shellie zimmerman, as well, if what mark o'mara said holds up. we should note here that right now you're looking at another sidebar inside the courtroom here in sanford. presumably after this sidebar, they are going to continue the hearing they started this morning, that hearing over this animation that the defense wants to introduce. this is a hearing that started at 8:30. at about 10:15, judge nelson threw her hands in the air and said, enough already. i want to bring the jury in.
so she postponed the remainder of that hearing until later that afternoon. the state is supposed to start in that hearing. the state said it will take him at least 45 minutes. so at this point they may be talking about whether to proffer these witnesses or whether to go ahead and spend the next 45 minutes on trying to wrap up that animation hearing as well. again, going back to the timeline, martin, after the judge rules on whether that animation is in after the proffering of these two expert witnesses, they could move in to wrapping up these cases in closing arguments as early as tomorrow. >> right. and craig, just on that animation, this is made by an individual called conrad shoemaker, and as i understand it, craig, this is a reconstruction, as it were, a graphicized reconstruction of the defense's view of what happened on the night trayvon martin was shot; is that right?
>> reporter: that would be right, and the point you just made that it's essentially the defense's point of view. that's the argument the state has essentially been making. although we should note here there were some objections initially by the state and defense apparently made some edits to the animation, so much so that the animation itself appears to have been reduced to a series of still photos at this point, but the still photos still apparently rely largely on witnesses, witness testimony from the defense, also the police report as well. we do know that he visited -- the gentleman that created this recreation, this animated recreation, he visited the crime scene twice, he took some photos himself, he took some infrared photos as well, he used a drone to do some of this, and also, martin, i should note while i've been talking to you, the jury has been ex kcused for the day.
so one would assume if the jury has been excused that they are immediately going to move into wrapping up this hearing on the animation. but again, the animation itself, going back to it, the guy who created these, he testified earlier today that he's done this about 39 times. he's never actually had one of these tossed out of court, and, yeah. so martin, i'll send it back to you. >> reporter: absolutely, craig. the jury has been dismissed. the judge has said she expects them back tomorrow morning, wednesday morning. along with us is msnbc analyst lisa bloom and political analyst. lisa, just give us an overview of the day, because the day was really dominated by the forensic scientist, dr. di maio, correct? >> he is a very well-established
expert on gunshot wounds, among other things. he's testified in a lot of high-profile cases, and some of them he's been on the losing side, like the phil specter case and the o.j. simpson case. i thought he testified pretty well on a limited but important issue for the defense, and that is that george zimmerman's injuries are consistent with his story. he had to acknowledge on cross examination they could also be consistent with a different story, but he essentially corroborated through scientific evidence what george zimmerman has said, namely that he was down, that trayvon martin was on top of him leaning over him, that he shot in an upward trajectory and that the sweatshirt would have been pulled away from trayvon martin so he shot through the sweatshirt 2 to 4 inches away from trayvon martin's body and then the bullet went in. he also said trayvon martin was likely conscious, capable of speech and motion for 10 to 15 seconds after being shot.
that's important because that's consistent with george zimmerman's story that trayvon martin spoke to him and may have moved his hands after the shooting. and that george zimmerman's injuries are consistent with being potentially major head trauma with his head being banged on a hard surface, probably concrete. martin? >> lisa, let's listen to dr. di maio as he gave testimony earlier about the actual shooting incident as it occurred. let's take a listen. >> there was a distribution measuring 2 inches by 2 inches, and a certain density in these tattoo marks. and this indicated that the gun was not against the skin, it was not a half-inch away, it was more than an inch, and based upon the concentration of the marks and the size of the pattern, it's my opinion that the mu sdplrzzle of the gun in case was 2 to 4 inches away from
the skin. so the barrel of the gun was against the clothing, the muzzle of the gun was against the clothing, but the clothing itself had to be 2 to 4 inches away from the body. >> now, lisa, the prosecution challenged that and suggested that it's possible that the gun could have been much further than 4 inches away. >> yes, that is correct. and the prosecution made a small point of this. i might have made a larger point, that these were baggy sweatshirts that trayvon martin was wearing. he was wearing two of them. you know, the prosecutor made a joke on cross examination with the witness that neither the prosecutor nor dr. di maio wears baggy hoodies, that's something younger people tend to wear. but the point that they're baggy, they're not right up against the skin. even if trayvon martin had been standing up, the sweatshirt
could have easily been 2 inches away from his skin. but then dr. di maio really maintained his position, that because there was this 2 to 4-inch gap, it really indicated that george zimmerman was down, that trayvon martin was over him and that gravity was pulling the sweatshirt away from his body. >> indeed. the defense managed to persuade the judge initially they would be able to introduce this evidence of small particles of the chemical found in marijuana as a result of the toxicology report in trayvon martin's body. and now they've chosen not, apparently, to use that evidence. what's their intention? why were they seeking to introduce that? >> well, obviously they want to suggest that mr. martin was under the influence somehow. the elements in marijuana might have altered his judgment, probably arguing or implying that it made him a bit aggressive, that he was out of sorts, and that, therefore, he was a person who was not his
normal self, and, you know, being, quote, high on marijuana would suggest that he would act in a way that might depart from what his mother or father or people who knew him to behave, and as a result, that george zimmerman might have been indeed threatened in a way that we couldn't have anticipated from the normal, you know, marijuanaless trayvon martin. i think what it goes to there is to suggest he's a certain kind of character. secondly, i think it comports with the vision, and i think george zimmerman has racially profiled trayvon martin, so the fact that he was carrying traces of marijuana in his body would then go to the stereotype of a young black male. >> and george zimmerman said he thought trayvon martin was under
the influence of something, so by obtaining that toxicology report, there is some consistency in what they're alleging. >> sure. the thing is, teaching students myself at a major university whether they come to class high or not, or whether you think they're on marijuana or not, you can draw your own conclusions, but there is no lethal consequence to my presumption or my suspicion. so the problem here is that this is not being asserted by an objective appraiser of trayvon martin, this is somebody who has an emotional or at least an existential investment in that knowledge and will use it in a certain way against trayvon martin or to impune his character. i think at that level, again, we have to talk about the swirl of stereotypes that are engaging mr. zimmerman's mind consciously or unconsciously, and as a result of that, don't, you know, don't have a positive outcome for trayvon and only a negative one because the person making
the assessment, george zimmerman, now we know acts in a way to ultimately deprive mr. martin of his life. >> lisa bloom, isn't it the case that mark o'mara, even outside of the trial, was providing information about trayvon martin's text messaging and certain interests in his appearance and so on to imply a certain stereotype. that was going on outside the trial weeks before proceedings began, wasn't it? >> that is correct, and none of that has come in. none of the stuff about trayvon martin has come in. but i have to tell you something. just putting aside all those cultural issues, which is very valid, if i was the prosecutor in this case, i might want it to come in. fine, let it come in, because if trayvon martin was under the influence of marijuana, and these were only trace amounts in his system. >> very small amounts. >> but let's assume the defense wants to say he was under the influence. yeah, he's the kind of guy walking around slowly in the
rain, looking into houses, that is possibly an effect of marijuana. not the same guy who is then going to sucker punch somebody in the face, threaten to kill him. that is completely inconsistent with george zimmerman's theory of the case. >> professor? >> that's a perfectly reasonable and logical alibi or at least the explanation here that bloom has provided. the probably is you roll the dice and then you take your chance. and that they'll go, hey, he couldn't have done this, or at least he had some marijuana in his system, and as a result, he couldn't be as aggressive in the first place. you're damned in you do and you're damned if you don't. >> thank you all so much, and i should remind everybody here that the procedures today have been adjourned.
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at aflac.com. we continue to cover the trial of george zimmerman. the jury has been sent home for the day, but the judge is hearing arguments about a potential animation that the defense would like to use. it's their reconstruction of the events, according to what they believe happened with their client, mr. zimmerman. i'm joined now by the forensic department of john j. college, and you're an expert in forensics. you've been following the proceedings today. what's your assessment of what you heard? >> i thought this was an extraordinary day for the defense. you have to contrast the testimony we heard today from dr. di maio with the testimony that was given by shipping bao, who, in my opinion, gave a
rather amateurish testimony, bringing his notes into the courtroom. he didn't want to provide those notes to the attorneys. he thought that they were his own notes. experts know, they should know, that when you come into the courtroom bringing your own notes, you've got to turn it over. and dr. bao flip-flopped on a number of issues, changing what he said during the deposition. you heard today somebody with great confidence describing cause of death, manner of death, and as you have heard, dr. di maio is not only an expert in pathology but also an expert in gunshot wounds. >> yes. >> and i think what he cleared up -- he cleared up a number of things, but one of the things he cleared up was the distance that the muzzle was to the clothing and to the body. >> now, that, of course, was disputed by the prosecution. they suggested he, as you know, said the muzzle of the gun was
between 2 and 4 inches from trayvon martin when the weapon was fired. the prosecution suggested it may have been much further away. >> well, frankly, 2 to 4 inches is called a close-in shot. it's not an intermediary distance as described by dr. bao. the ballistics expert, amy seivert, who tested the clothing, demonstrated on the hoodie this pattern of soot that clearly indicated a contact shot. there is no dispute that it was a contact shot. the question then is how do you interpret the pattern on the body, on the skin of trayvon martin? and you heard a very clear description today about a 2-inch by 2-inch pattern of what is called tattooing or stipling which results from an abrading
of the skin caused by pellets of gunpowder shot from the muzzle at a very high velocity, and this can only be explained by a shot that was close in. you heard 2 to 4 inches. i think that's very, very consistent with that 2-inch by 2-inch pattern. >> doctor, let's listen to what dr. vincent di maio said about trayvon martin's clothing and what he believed it explains in relation to how he was killed. >> if instead you're lying on your back and somebody shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest. so that the fact that we know the clothing was 2 to 4 inches away is consistent with somebody leaning over the person doing
the shooting. >> obviously, dr. di maio was supporting george zimmerman's claim that, in fact, he was beneath trayvon martin when the gun was fired. >> that is correct. and remember, there is also evidence of botanical matter on the back of the shirt, the jacket, that george zimmerman was wearing. it is consistent -- if you look at the track of the shot, the trajectory, it's consistent with trayvon martin being shot by somebody in his right hand, and apparently hitting the chest 1 inch to the left, his left, trayvon martin's left of midline, and then moving at an angle entering the right ventricle in and out and then into the lung. so i think this was a very clear description of the bullet track. the distances, i think, are
solid. i don't think there's any question of what dr. did i mayo said. and i think the trooper from cleveland was right on the money because she demonstrated the photographs with the gunshot pattern. so i think it's. this is what the testimony was about, trying to determine if there's any kind of physical evidence. it negates the story of george zimmerman. and what we heard was it certainly seems to be consistent with george zimmerman's claim. >> dr. lawrence koblinski in new york. stay with us for the trial developments of george zimmerman when we come back.
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also by goldie taylor, an msnbc analyst. as we get close to the end of witnesses for the defense, what's your assessment of the day? >> first of all, i think the headline is that george zimmerman is not going to testify. it's something that most of us who have been following the case has been saying from day one. they put on trayvon martin's own father and asked him some tough questions, they put on a lot of witnesses. we're trying to get to the bottom of what happened. george zimmerman is exercising his fifth amendment right not to testify, and i think that's significant. people can draw whatever conclusions they want from that. the jurors have heard about five different stories from george zimmerman that he gave the night of the incident and the days following the incident all the way to a few months later when he sat down with questions with shawn hannity, but he's not going to be answering questions in the courtroom which would be
tough questions to endure. >> craig melvin is down in florida, and craig, can you just update us as to where we are exactly at this moment? >> reporter: again, right now, martin, we are waiting for judge nelson to call the court back to order. she's excused the jury for today, but when she calls court back to order this afternoon, she's going to spend at least 45 minutes, if not longer, allowing the state to make its case as to why this animation should not be allowed. and again, this is a hearing that started this morning at 8:30. we expected that the hearing might take 30 minutes, maybe an hour. it ended up taking almost two hours this morning. it will take at least another hour this afternoon. that should show most folks just how important the defense thinks this animation is to their case. again, this is an animation that depicts in their view, based on their witnesses, based on some police reports as well, but their view as to what happened that night, how it happened.
at one point, one of the earlier versions of the animation, it actually showed trayvon martin on top of george zimmerman punching him. obviously, the defense objected -- excuse me, the state objected to that and they made some additional evidence, but at the end of the day, the state decided the animation needed to go, and it looks like this particular hearing is about to start right now. >> it does. a and craig, do you believe that the defense has finished with the number of witnesses it's planning on calling, or do you expect further witnesses? >> reporter: well, if we are to believe what mark o'mara said earlier, the witness we just saw, elloise dilligard, the former neighbor of george zimmerman, if we are to believe mark o'mara, that could very well be their last witness. they are going to spend some time, we understand, talking to two other experts, but it appears as if the experts they're going to talk to could
have their testimony taken but not necessarily be called to the stand. lisa, you can probably speak a little more to proffering witnesses. even if this animation isn't admitted, it will be presented to the jury. >> lisa, can you answer to that. >> so a proffer is when they put a witness on to testify outside the presence of a jury simply to preserve a record. so let's say the defense is not able to testify because of an expert they wanted to put on, the jury would not be in the room, but there will be questions and answers all preserved on the record so if the defense wants to appeal later on, they have that on record. >> we just had a forensics expert who seemed to be fairly impressed by the defense witnesses today. you also have been following the
trial. what's your reaction? >> i think the the -- but this pathologist today had his shortcomings as well. on cross examination. all of those different ways did not hold up he had to sort of make some concessions that he. under florida law, if you are the aggressor who initiates, but if you initiate the provocation, then you cannot find cover under self-defense. so i think that the idea that who was on top at the end of the fight is largely irrelevant. what's really relevant here is who initiated the fight? so i don't know that either side
can proof this one way or the other, i don't know that we have enough evidence even with the pathologist today to say that we have here. who knows? but at the end of the, but under cross examination, his story, too, seemed to fall. in a conflict like this, it's possible that one individual was on top. i'm i've said that mull at one woi woint. and the person who. it really doesn't matter to me who was on top at one point or the other. what matters to me, what should
her long day of pick ups and drop offs begins with arthritis pain... and a choice. take up to 6 tylenol in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. all aboard. ♪ we continue with our coverage of the george zimmerman trial, and i'm joined once again by dr. lawrence kablinsky, a professor at john jay college here in new york. dr. kablinsky, what do you expect the defense, since they've almost completed all of their witnesses, there may be another one tomorrow, we're uncertain at the moment, but how do you expect them to finish? >> i knew they would end quickly. i didn't think they would end this quickly. i would think you would want to end with a bang, an expert that really seals the case.
if they were going to finish up with the pathologist and then a toxicologist, that would have made sense to me. i think ending with this character witness, if you will, or voice witness, elloise dilligard, kind of surprised me, but i think -- >> but dr. kablinsky, maybe the debate going on right now in court which is whether the defense can play this reconstructed, animated, graphicized sequence of what their witness, george zimmerman, said happened, maybe that is the coup de grace they were hoping to deliver. >> exactly. a picture is worth a thousand words, and looking at this reconstruction of event graphically would have a profound effect on the jurors. of course, it's a one-sided perspective. i've seen it done in the courtroom before, both on the part of the prosecution, sometimes the fbi will use this
approach, and it's used by the defense. but it's a potentially dangerous tool because it is not necessarily what the event was all about. >> indeed. professor dyson, you've been following the trial in detail. where do you think these proceedings are headed? >> you know, to add to the professor's point there, the case began with a bang. that's the problem. with a gunshot that rang out on a rainy night where it appears a young person was profiled, lost his life, and now he's dying again the death of a thousand qualifications, which is what our legal system is about. i don't have much faith in the processes here because they don't really speak to the profou profound issues that are being raised here. as goldie taylor indicated, it's not who was on the top, it's who
started it. you project them materially on my body and you assault me, i defend myself and you kill me, then the children of poor and people of color in this country don't have the same quality of justice as given to those who are able to muster up resources and defend themselves against such a charge. i don't think that there is a great expectation to begin with that justice would ultimately be done because there had to be such an outcry for mr. zimmerman to begin with. so part of it was bringing him in the courtroom to be subject to criminal proceedings to begin with, but that's not enough. we should be outraged that a young person who is innocent loses his life, and the person
who believes god led him down this path will perhaps, be acquir acquired. this reinforces patterns of egregious injustice, and if you ask me, the pattern for mr. zimmerman is an acquittal. >> you seem to be speaking of history when you describe this particular case. you seem to be alluding to the many occasions in the past when individual young, black men have been profiled in this way. think about oscar grant who lost his wife. a new actor losing his life a few years ago where he begged the security person. george zimmerman, an informal
security person. this person not a police but a security person in oakland who then fired a bullet into mr. this is the temporary transcript that is ranked that time and time again. it is seen as the necessary condition for the justice system to -- if a number of young, white children lost their lives in a similar fargs. if george is innocent, will we see the same outcome? will the human guard put up in regard to trayvon martin be the effective voice and realized
because these people fight in the justice system, and criminals like george zimmerman, if it is true, continue to get away with the killing of our children without necessarily facing the kind of cons that kind of justice system would demand. >> dr. kabliy kind of a conflict. what you've seen in terms of the evidence wrrks is this trial going? >> listen, a person in this. the state has great power and resources. they have to overcome that high of guilt beyond a reasonable
doubt. i've spoken to many commentators and i think the majority of the state thinks this has not reached that level. i'm quite confident there will be an acquittal here. i don't think there will be a decision on the manflower if given an opportunity. i think the state's case is really going downhill fast. >> are you surprised, sir, that an individual who shot a young man, an unarmed young man, should spend 44 days freely without being approached or in custody or remanded in any way? >> i think it's a tragedy that, however tragic. it was after the prosecution went forward that the state decided to press charges. it's the peculiarity of our system. >> indeed, it is. as always, i'm gratefulo you