tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC July 9, 2013 5:00pm-6:00pm EDT
we're expecting an ntsb press conference within the next hour on the latest developments in the san francisco plane crash. "hardball" is next. the defense's strongest witness takes the stand. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm in for chris matthews. leading off tonight, it was a big day for the defense in the george zimmerman trial with a key medical expert backing up zimmerman's account of the shooting. vincent di maio is a forensic pathologist hired by the defense. today he testified that the physical evidence was consistent with zimmerman's account that martin was leaning over him when the shot was fired. that's important, since zimmerman said he shot the unarmed teenager in self-defense, and the
self-defense has argued that george sblirm man's wife and wounds. the defense may be winding down its case. how important was today's testimony in establishing reasonable doubt. craig mel man. craig? >> reporter: michael, good evening to you. that's the distance that dr. di maio was from martin. that was one of his highlights from the testimony today. he went on to say that the gun was against their clothing, not pregt against the skin. he ultimately said the medical evidence that he was presented is consistent with george zimmerman's story. injuries from his head, according to dr. di maio, came
from some serious blows. perhaps concrete. there were at least six injuries to george zimmerman's. . some of his most animated that he could not testify as to who started the fight, couldn't testify as to who threw the first punch and also couldn't testify whether trayvon martin at any point has actually grabbed the gun as have been said. they also wonder how the medical. also, as you indicated, mark, one of george zimmerman's
neighbors elloise dell guard, would be the last. they're wrapping up a hearing. this is a hearing whether this specific animation is going to be admitted. the defense spent two hours this. this is an animation that essentially de. . defense witness accounts is boi boisd, and earlier also showed. at this particular point. nonethele nonetheless, the state said the entire animation should not be allowed. going back to the timetable, martin, it appears as if,
appears being the operative word, that the defense could very well rest its case tomorrow and start closing arguments. >> craig, last night you broke news here when you told us there had been an effort by the defense successful to bring in toxicology information. interestingly, they got the green light and didn't do it. >> you know what, michael, that was -- >>. mo more, this toxicology report showed trayvon martin had a, and for whatever reason the defense. just as interesting, perhaps, mike, no reason give. >> so it sounds as if they get
the, that could be the concluding bit of evidence put forth by the source. given evidence is presented by both the prosecution and the defense. >> spot on, spot on. we thought the hearing to get this animation admitted, judge nelson started at 8:30 this morning. we suspected it might take 30 minutes, might take an hour and i roult. is a cornerstone of the defense. we haven't seen it, obviously. o our. this particular animation, this is how they would like to end their case to the. >> thanks for your report, as always. for more i'm joined by legal
analyst laxir, a veteran prosecutor. let's take a look at how di maio describes where the gun was in relation to trayvon martin's body. >> it's my opinion that the muzzle of the gun in this case was 2 to 4 irchlds away from the skin. so the barely red. . the gun was against the clothing, but the clothing itself had to be 2 to 4 inches away from the body at the time mr. martin was shot. >> now, according to di maio, that's consistent with zimmerman act that martin was over him at the time of the shooting. >> if you lean over somebody, you would notice that the clothing tends to fall away from
the chest. if instead you're lying on your back and somebody shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest. so that the fact that we know the clothing was 2 to 4 inches away is consistent with somebody leaning over leaning over the person doing the shooting. >> i don't know how it plays out in court, but i can tell you, i thought he was a pretty effective witness for the defense. what was your reading of the tea leaves? >> on style, he's an i-plus. he speaks in plain english, he's very understandable, completely different than that of dr. bao. i think he testified that lean's
fl flo. >> and it stays a against him when he goes back. when you're wearing a completely hunched shoulders and in the scuffle the clothing bunched. really, what he established was -- 2 inches is not that much. it was 2 to 4 inches from trayvon. >> judge alex, you told us last night this this was going to be an important witness for the defense. how do you think he played? >> i would say it's amazing. the prosecution didn't get it, the establish. when you thimg about the other evidence, the grass stains on t the. and when he, so top of which we
know that he had that pull it baker or to the zm. you pointed out you wouldn't necessarily have bruises on knuckles from hitting somebody. when he was shot in. . he said you need blood pressure for blood to get pumped in that area for bruises to start. you've never seen bruising that might kill? >> where is the dr. di maio said essentially in lay fermds, the, and categorically, that would explain the lack of bruising. another important point for the defense that di maio said was it's possible to obtain head trauma without making a visual
mark. >> yes. >> so the presence of the injury on the outside, are you saying, doesn't necessarily mean there was impact or that the impact itself was minor? >> okay. what i'm saying is that you can get severe head trauma, but actually without any marks on the head, or you can get marks, lacerations and contusions and have had trauma. more likely, though, when you have severe head trauma to the staffer. but you think it's a ridiculous. >> how do you sperpt thget to tt testimony? >> it doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day he's facing a deadly injury. it looks like some little
scrapes and bruising there. i don't feel like the testimony, as good as it was, moved them along for a fear because of their injuries. it didn't feel like it to me that his. you are the former prosecutor among us, so i want to ask about this. secretary de la rionda testified. here it is. >> you can't testify as to who threw the first punch. in fact, you can't really testify whether there was a first punch throwing. >> that's correct, sir. >> and you can't say whether it was trayvon martin defending
himself or george zimmerman defending himself, in terms of when this first started? >> when this first started, that is correct, sir. >> so he couldn't offer testimony as to who the initiater was, but he did offer some compelling testimony as far as what the final act was. do you disagree with that? >> i don't disagree. this was a very good witness for the defense. it almost sounded like a class when he was explaining his ideas about what he knew. it was quiet in the courtroom. everyone was paying attention. they did an outstanding job stand up and say he had no information and was not givenen. he also got him to admit that he did not talk about and couldn't talk about who may have initiated the fight. and then finally the third thing they did that i thought was good
for this witness from the prosecution's perspective was to get him to admit that he relied on his opinion based on their previous witnesses' report. i think that's what you have to do with an expert that comes across so credibly, you have to put him in a box and make sure the jury understands that his credibility is only limited to a very small part of this picture. >> judge alex, do you give the prosecution the high marks that paul henderson is for doing what they were able to do with dr. di maio? >> no, not even close. honestly, the prosecution stood up there and said, you can't say who threw the first punch. sadly, that's not the defense's burden. they can't say who threw the first punch. the only evidence they have of who threw the first punch was the doctor. the prosecution gets up and said, well, it would be consistent with trayvon standing up and zimmerman standing up and
george shooting him, and the doctor said, no, that's not true. the clothing would be hanging down and it would not be consistent. immediately they said, well, it would be consistent with trayvon backing away. is there any theory who may have a theory and they're supposed to have a theory. the defense has a theory that's being supported by forensic evidence, and the prosecution is in the role the defense is usually in, trying to throw up things and make it stick. they're changing tactics. they've moved from trying to make abortion is. but supporters are fighting back. plus, we all know how sun ma bin laud laud.
lfs a time when a sex scandal. let me finish tonight with the case, yes, for legalized prostitution. this is hardball get. . which provider is the best in town. you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare. now that we're expecting, i like the fact i can go onto angie's list and look for pediatricians. the service providers that i've found on angie's list actually have blown me away. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. since aflac is helping with his expenses while he can't work, he can focus on his recovery. he doesn't have to worry so much about his mortgage, groceries, or even gas bills. kick! kick... feel it! feel it! feel it! nice work! ♪ you got it! you got it! yes!
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abortion debate. the texas legislature has a bill on the fast track that would make abortions illegal after 20 weeks, require abortion facilities to upgrade to ambulatory surgical centers and they would have to be within 30 miles of a hospital. they oppose the women's right to choose abortion. last night mike huckabee spoke out. >> no such thing as a life that is so insignificant, so worthless, so unwanted, so unnecessary that any of us would choose and believe that we are so god-like that we would singularly have the right to extinguish that which god created. >> today former pennsylvania senator and presidential candidate mirick santorum
announced via press release that he, too, would be in austin on thursday to show his support for the texas bill. this isn't the only place the fight is being fought. the senate could leave the state with just one abortion clinic. yesterday at the capitol, 60 people protesting were arrested. they limited abortion access in his state on friday, but last night a federal judge had granted a temporary restraining order on that law. this map shows the states where new abortion restrictions are being opposed which in various ways would make it harder for a woman seeking abortion to access one. eli elise hoag is the president of abortion america.
at 20 weeks we're not talking vi built. it would seem that on its face, this bill would be unconstitutional. why go through all the effort if that's, in fact, going to be the holding of a court someday? >> well, we've actually been asking ourselves that same question here in texas. i agree with you. i think on its face it appears that it would be unconstitutional, but ultimately, of course, it will be up to the courts to decide. as you stated earlier, wisconsin yesterday, of course, a federal court there has already put an injunction on i mplementation o their actions, so i think the same thing will happen here in texas. i think we're on a path to litigation in the courts, ultimately, with this bill if it passes. >> elise, it seems to me you may as well say one week after conception we're going to ban all abortion because that would have the same constitutional standard as would the 20-week measure. >> well, i actually think that that is the goal of these radical ideal logs who are
driving this demonstration. their goal has remained the same. that's to outlaw abortion as well as women's other reproductive choices. what's more interesting is how they're resorting to doing it. these politicians in texas and north carolina, and i'm from texas as well, know that they don't have popular support on their side, so they're resorting to cheating, changing the rules, doing these things under the dark of night because they know that there is a political price to pay. there is a health price to pay, there is a political price to pay, there is a financial price to pay when these things go to court, and yet, they are ssobo be holden to their days that they're doing this, anyway. >> in all the states i referenced in this conversation, do you attribute it to a reading, or maps a misreading, of what that trial in my home state of philadelphia was all
about? >> to me it seems to be sort of an agenda nationally by, as was stated earlier, the notoriety of extremists who just want to make it hard skper haer and harder f to have access to health care generally. i think it's part of a national agenda and they're trying to chip away, and i agree, i think it's a back doorway to try to ban all abortions in this country. >> i wonder if there is a strategy that's now going to be employed by pro-choice forces, of getting money who have had abortions to tell their stories. almost in the same way, and that's because they're in their family, or someone who is sexual and lesbian, all of a sought. i'm thinking in part of an outbed i wrote a few weeks ago,
and in the same place her mother wrote about abortion. >> women who have had abortions are our daughters, our mothers, our sisters, our friends. they're everywhere. it's one in three american women, so we are all around. it's also important to recognize that we've got to take away the shame. the shame doesn't start and end with abortion, but it's very acute there. women are ashamed for exercising their reproductive rights, they're ashamed when they're raped like we saw in steubenville, and this is part of an anti-woman agenda that wants to make us ashamed of leading real lives today, and i think women have had enough. we're getting calls from. we've gotten calls saying, what can i do? this is enough. we will support texas, we will support north carolina, but we will get these folks out of office who are driving these policies that are bad for our
families. >> thank you very much. up next, last night on "hardball," eliot spitzer told me he's used to being the butt of bad jokes. now that he's running? well, here comes some more. this is "hardball," the place for politics. things anyone can . it steals your memories. your independence. ensures support, a breakthrough. and sooner than you'd like. sooner than you'd think. you die from alzheimer's disease. we cure alzheimer's disease. every little click, call or donation adds up to something big. [ herbie ] eh, hold on brent, what's this? mmmm, nice car. there's no doubt, that's definitely gonna throw him off. she's seen it too. oh this could be trouble. [ sentra lock noise ] oh man. gotta think fast, herbie. back pedal, back pedal.
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and judging by her long shot run for governor in 2010, she won't shia way from her controversial past. here are some colorful sound bites from that race. >> the key difference between the mta and my escort agency is i operated one set of books, and my former agency delivered on time and reliable service. the career politicians in albany are the biggest whores in this state. i might be the only person sitting on this stage with the right experience to deal with them. >> new yorkers are forgiving, but with davis around to remind them of spitzer's past, it might be harder to forforget. here's a take on the tonight show last night. >> one of them is the most degrading profession of all time and the other ran a whore house. geez. >> of course, leno isn't the first to equate politics with
prostitution. ronald reagan wrote, politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. i've come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. there is a series a on comedy central tonight about american history but with a new spin that will surely appeal to the college fraternity demographic. it's called "drunk history" and it illustrates the storied past through an inebriator who often blur between fact and verification. >> john wilkes booth comes into their box and shoots lincoln in the head. after he shot lincoln, he jumped from the balcony, breaking his ankle. and raising his knife in the air, he said, t.plurubis unum --
i don't remember -- [ bleep ] [ bleep ]. no more tyranny, basically. >> what will they think of next? up next, anthony weiner at or near the top of the polls in new york, and eliot spitzer making a comeback. is sex dead as a political deal killer? you're watching "hardball " the place for politics. i'm a careful investor. when you do what i do, you think about risk. i don't like the ups and downs of the market, but i can't just sit on my cash.
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and barnes and noble shares are up after the ceo announced he was stepping down. big losses in the company's nook e-reading division. that's a business update worldwide. now back to "hardball." i refuse to submit my family and my friends and innocent people and myself to further rumors and gossip. it's simply an intolerable situation. i believe i would have been a successful candidate, and i know i could have been a very good president, particularly for these times. but apparently now we'll never know. >> that was gary hart in 1987 after a sex scandal derailed his campaign for president, but now the political sex scandal may not be the career ender that it
was for hart. in september of 2007, senator henry craig was arrested at the minneapolis airport and he was accused of soliciting sex from an undercover police officer. he pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct and served out rhethe remainder of his senate term. that same summer his phone number was published by the notorious d.c. madam. vitter stood with his wife and asked for public forgiveness. he remained in office and then one reelection in 2010 with 20% of the vote. this disgrasd tced the governor south carolina who left for argentina to visit his mistress in 2009. anthony weiner dismissed himself from politics after tweeting pictures of his genitals on
line. and now elliott spitzer is launching what he hopes will be the second political act and hopes people will forgive his transgressions with prostitutes. are sex scandals no longer career killers for politicians? i'm joined by ceo and chairman michael steele. michael, what's your answer to that question? >> a good sex scandal isn't what it used to be, that's for sure. it shows the timeline, the arc of time and how it's changed from the days of bill clinton and gary hart to right now where these things aren't as devastating. the bottom line is, politicians today have figured out how to apologize. they figured out how to go for that sort of kum-ba-ya gee, i'm sorry, won't you give me another try, which with clinton and hart started out defiant, started pushing back to the public which said, i'm bigger than this and you can't touch me.
now humble is the meal of the day for a lot of these politicians caught in this kind of scandal. >> is it that they've figured out how to apologize or that the public came to some realization, maybe based on clinton, among others, to say, even if the guy is screwing around in his personal life, i just want him to make the trains run on time. >> you know, hard times will do that. hard times will take your attention away from those types of things that at the end of the day really don't matter, and you want to know whether or not you're getting the trains to run on time and you're getting the job done. i think there is some truth to that, michael, that there is some peeling away from the puritanical approach that at the end of the day, if you've got the trains running, what you do in your bedroom or on your own time is your own business. it's sort of a slippery slope. >> chris, has politics changed or has our culture changed?
>> i think the way we ser recei -- perceive our politics has changed. the american public now, and this is relatively new in terms of how negatively they view politicians. it's incredibly negatively. congress, virtually every institution. so i think there is sort of a sense, i guess, among the elector that all these guys and gals are bad. so they think, at least this guy kind of owned up to it and now we know this is the key to the political comeback. sanford used it really well. now we know he or she isn't beholden to anyone. the establishment which, by the way, the public hates, the establishment doesn't want this guy or woman to run, but now they're running, and because of the thing that happened to them and they were forced to sort of be humble, now they're sort of the last honest person. everybody is flawed but they've been flawed in public, and now they don't owe anybody anything. if you go and watch the campaign
mark sanford ran, look, i've been an outsider all my life, all these people are lining up against me, but i'm the guy telling you the truth. it's a fascinating sort of psychological experiment. >> gary hart was a path creator, bill clinton in the same respect. look at these amazing numbers. through what many considered to be the worst days of his presidency, bill clinton received high marks from the public when this came to his overall job performance despite what they may have thought about his personal behavior. for example, march of '98, six weeks after clinton famously denied, quote, having sex with that woman ms. lewinsky, he stood at 56% jobs approval according to the wall street journal poll. 15 days after, he told the nation that he had in fact lied about his relationship with lewinsky, he held a 65% job approval rating. on the day residents voted to impeach president clinton, his job approval, nearly 66% rating.
just before leaving office in 2001, he maintained a job ratings approval of 66%. just to give everybody an idea of how high those numbers are, president clinton's current jobs approval stands at 38% approval, 57% disapproval according to a wall street journal poll from june of 2013. so michael steele, based on that data, maybe we should not be surprised that durin the last decade or so there have been a number of resurrections after a political appeal that involves sex. >> i think that's true, and it begs the classic religious questions, is it faith or good works that gets you into heaven? or is it the faith the voters have in you or the good works you do that keep you in their good stead. i would say if you look at the economy, the other agenda items while this was going on, people latched onto that. people had greater faith in that, in his ability to get it done, to do the good work, and
that helped push those numbers up. when bill clinton came out of the gates, michael, belligerent, wagging his finger and pushing back against the voters, that's when the numbers showed the photos were like, you know what, you may be protesting a little too much and i'm suspicious, but when he got to work, he put his head down and focused on the mea culpa opportunity, and in combination with the good works, the voters responded. >> i think eliot spitzer is smart to go running for comptroller. it shows pen answer ance on his. he's not running for mayor. can he win this thing? >> yes. i think honestly one of his biggest challenges at this point is he has to get almost 4,000 signatures by later this week, which is not easy. he has two things going for him. everyone knows his name, which in ballot races anywhere that matters and helps you, even if people know your name for not the greatest reasons. and number two, don't forget.
he has a tremendous amount of personal wealth, can fund the campaign says he's going outside public financing. it's not a sure thing. i think he's got a 50-50 chance. i agree with you, by the way. we like second chances in this country. >> we love that. >> look at josh hamilton and baseball. but you have to humble yourself first, and this is spitzer humbling himself saying, i don't want to be mayor. >> up next, we have the inside report for pakistan on how osama bin laden managed to escape capture for so long. that's ahead. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ mortazavi ] i'm definitely a perfectionist.
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we're back. an exhaustive bin laden report kept secret by the government has been exposed. the 300-plus document recounts bin laden's life after 9/11 when he sought and found refuge in pakistan. it also chronicles an astounding level of incompetence of government officials who allowed him to live unprotected in their country for nine years. and then they responded to a u.s. raid on their own soil that killed him. they called it a case of government implosion syndrome, to put it mildly, exposed by al jazeera. it also gives us an account of how bin laden lived in secret for all those years. for instance, to avoid detection, he at one point shaved off his world famous beard. he bought his compound using a fake national i.d. card and the occupants didn't pay taxes. when venturing outside, he liked to wear a wide-brimmed cowboy hat to avoid aerial detection, a
tidbit that the london daily mayo had some fun with to create this depiction of bin laden in a stetson -- a black one, of course. and his wife posed as a deaf-mute when she went into the hospital to have their children. we have phillip mudd whose work spans the cia. according this report, they were in the dark. >> the short answer, michael, is they didn't know much. what's remarkable about this report is how frank and really honest it is. and the government implosion syndrome, you mentioned that. that's a phrase we might want to use in d.c. every now and then. particularly capitol hill could learn a few things from it. i think what you see in this demonstration is dysfunctionalty within the pakistani government but also some pretty good security on the part of bin laden and his immediate family. it is a remarkably frank, candid and honest assessment of what
pakistan failed to do. actually, i really am admiring the commission for writing what they did. >> it's an interesting point, phill phillip, because as roger points out, they were operational security in the part of bin laden and his immediate family. it's a remarkably frank, candid and honest assessment of what pakistan failed to do. and i really am admiring the commission or the writing what they did. >> it's an interesting point, philip. as roger points out, they were incredibly frank. and yet this was exposed because al jazeera brought it to light. in other words, it got shelved, whi will be changing in the future if they didn't want this report to see the light of day? >> i don't think there is much prospect. look, one of the surprises here is the security services in pakistan are extremely powerful. they're not going to want this out, because obviously it embarrasses them. but to think that this report alone is going to lead to some kind of change within the security services or to a regenerated hunt for al qaeda players in pakistan, i just don't see that happening. >> roger, what did you learn in the report? what was the most stunning to you? >> we shouldn't be surprised that bin laden and his family were very cognizant of what u.s. surveillance capability is, and they took a variety of steps to
minimize their footprint. in doing so, they tried to fly and live under the radar. and they did an extremely good job at it. i think that was one important point. i think the other important point was the commission calling out the fact that the pakistani military for a period of three hours, the duration of the raid on were not in a position to respond. we engaged the pakistanis at multiple levels on multiple issues. but pakistani military was always the key to the relationship. we gave them an enormous amount of cutting edge hardware, but still there are functional elements within that military that were exposed in what the commission wrote in the report. >> philip, we're all familiar of course with the compound in -- i've got to interrupt. right now there is an ntsb news conference on the asiana 214 crash landing. let's go to san francisco. >> i apologize for being late. we had a lot 20 do today, and
we're making an effort to try to brief the family members about the information we're releasing prior to briefing the media. this morning i had a chance to meet with our investigators at the accident site and see some of the progress on the work. i'm going to talk to you about some of the things that we've completed in the last 24 hours and some of the things that we'll be working on. our power plants team is finishing up some of their onscene work right now. they identify that there was a post crash fire on the inboard section of the number 2 engine. that's the right engine. an oil tank had ruptured and leaked fuel on to the hot engine. they identified that both thrust reversers were stowed and that the engines weigh approximately
15,750 pounds. our aircraft performance team is working on completing the documentation, particularly the total station or the gps documentation. they're working on completing the total station or the gps documentation of the crash site. this includes from the seawall down the runway, up to the aircraft. they expect to finish that today. air traffic control group has been looking at radar data plots, altitudes, glide slope. they've also requested some additional information from the faa, from air traffic control. they've requested data for all 777 approaches to 28 left within the last few days.
they've also requested that the faa provide information on all of the go-arounds that have occurred on that same runway since june. they're asking for this information because it provides us with some baseline information, and they can identify trends. our structures and our systems group worked on some documentation of the cockpit. they made the following direct observations with respect to switch positions and information that is specific evidence in the cockpit. they found that the flight director was on for the right seat. it was off for the left seat. the auto throttles were armed. all three fire handles were
extended, and these -- these would activate bottles to put out flyers, because the crew is concerned there could be a fire if they have this crash in both engines and the apu. so they saw that this was extended for all three locations. flaps were set to 30. the speed break lever was down, which indicates that it was not being used. our survival factors team, yesterday was their first day to go inside the aircraft. they are removing overhead bags and personal effects in the aircraft and working to documen
half of the exits are to be blocked, only emergency lighting is permitted to simulate darkness. and the aisles and passageways are littered with pillows, blankets, and luggage. the test is considered successful if all of the aircraft's occupant exit within seconds. the manufacturer uses a line crew to serve as the flight crew and the cabin crew during this evacuation exercise. our ops, or operations and human performance team has spent the last