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tv   [untitled]  RT  July 30, 2010 5:32pm-6:02pm EDT

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is this a trend or simply freaky weather one thing is certain extreme temperatures are again fuelling the debate on climate change. and you can. discuss what's happening to the weather i'm joined by mark linus and oxford he's an environmentalist and climate change author in new york we have alexander ochs director of world watches institute climate and energy program and in los angeles we cross to phelim mcaleer he's a journalist and documentary filmmaker and another member of our cross talk team all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want mark and i to go to you in oxford first what the hell is going on with the weather and i say that with a great deal of passion because moscow is baking this is russia it shouldn't be happening here at least that's what i always believed why are we having such high
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temperatures around the world in places which you would never expect it. well first up you've got to distinguish between weather and climate ok if we're going to look at whether we're experiencing climate change and global warming you need to bear that in mind that climate is the average of weather over a longer period so with the heat waves that we're seeing these are reflective of a broader trend towards warming so i think you can say that we're now seeing the first effects of global warming in the way that these heat waves are now coming more often and they're hitting more severely and hitting harder in the places where they're telling we get local cooling already i was i. was going anywhere that i didn't think would happen so i'm sorry go ahead go ahead let him go ahead go ahead well yeah you can talk about the count de mar according to mark linus you can't talk about individual weather events when it's cold weather when there's cold weather no that's got nothing to do with the cloud but that's got nothing or that's just a one off event then when it gets hot which it does somewhere in the world every so
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often then that's indicative of climate change they that's the thing with these climate alarmists they change the rules to suit their own argument they change the facts to suit their own argument and the people are software are working people who depend upon cheap energy for their job and i usually melodies are going to the basic research the slightest using point of mass to use and. using. our sailors doesn't care about the poorest people of the planet. all right now i can get you to shut up kind of. close here where i was called in america when i was called and. i made a big point of i was told tire one time again this is cold weather this is not climate no i want to warm you want to say oh this is climate and we need to do we need to cut in an industry we need to cut the hopes of millions of people in the developing world take away their or their hold of our fossil future and. future condemn hundreds of millions of people in the developing world to a pre-industrial. existence which means. increasing child
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mortality and short british don't you made your point morris wants to reply and we want to go ahead mark go ahead and jump in. well it which it was just to make the point actually that we're talking about averaging out weather here so rather than looking at different events and saying believes reflects something or they don't you have to look at longer term changes and there's less and less cold events for this more and more hot events and that shows that the baseline is changing and the reason for this is basic physics i mean climate deniers like problem over there may and may try and go against the rules of physics but the rest of us have to live by them and the fact is that if you put more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere principally carbon dioxide the system the earth system the climate will heat up there's no way you can deny that it's provable in the burra tree the question is how much it'll heat up and by and by and by when and that's where the scientific uncertainties are but we're running a huge risk with our children's future and with our own future if we continue to dump these pollutants into the atmosphere as if there were no tomorrow and then listen to deniers like fowler who pretend it's not exist not happening presumably
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in order to benefit powerful industrial interests like you're welcome well all right i want to hear alexander first because we haven't heard all i'm going to xander in new york please go ahead thank you very much i guess at this point i want to make two comments here one is we bring together the scientists the leading scientists in the world those who have peer reviewed journal articles in a very open and very transparent process in which governments also have some sort of an oversight in the same hit since many years starting in one thousand nine hundred two and that's of course a u.n. panel called the international panel on climate change thousands of the real scientists and not the allam is on either side maybe and these these scientists come to very clear reports and they report in two thousand and seven the most recent one states that the influence of human beings on the climate is without any doubt and it also just you know it's basically it's not just physical sciences and
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we can go back and it's recorded that the warming in the last century was warming of zero. point seven four degree celsius so this is one point i want to make i really want to move forward and talk about solutions rather than balloting the science i think the science is clear that his lies i actually like i don't. yeah i mean i said you know we agree is illusion. point nine percent of climate scientists are going to do with their hundred percent in saying i want to slap me general managers and i design a little from that if there's anything to demand in the senate and center in atlanta my. gender finishes point i know this is a contentious issue go ahead can you can finish if you pull that is the second here's the second point so one is about the observer luzhin today and the second and then and there is there's going to be a war in the future and this is clear beyond any doubt in my point of view the second thing that i wanted to make is what is this great fossil fuel future that
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you're lining out here i mean i think you basically want to lock in people with us or you know all the usual kind of life's on a daily basis local pollution local water pollution you want to maybe lock them in with a diesel generator the fuel of which they can't afford in five or ten years anymore yeah i mean beautiful a solution. in the in the in the really in the really very literal sense of the ok gentlemen looks like we've got two sides here go ahead in los angeles you want to reply to that it's not it's not my solution it's the solution that is me and marc rich it is a solution that is made alex rich it's a solution that means i can live in a rich society with all the benefits that brings it's a fossil fuel solution that marc and alex want to deny for the purpose of people on the planet alex talks about the i.p.c.c. saying it has warmed up in these public documents but i prefer i prefer when scientists talk privately like in the claimant get emails and member that scientists who say that the truth is
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a house and warm the last fifteen years and it's a disgrace that we can't explain why we've gone through. this a few dia's it's warm you know weather changes. it always will it always has warmer weather is good for agricultural productivity at least a male if these e-mails are just limited to cost millions of jobs will cost hundreds of millions of jobs across the across america across europe across russia and deny the chance of a future to hundreds of millions in the developing world i don't want to make some ridiculous conspiracy theories in my will to distance a possible deal ok mark go ahead jump in there go ahead mark what i just say i just want to say that let's let martin let's go ahead yeah this whole climate gate business i mean it does add fuel to the conspiracy theory fires that you hear from the climate change denial side but the fact is that if anyone's private emails were scots all over the internet it would be embarrassing there are things that were said in private which i don't think showed climate science in the greatest light but the fact is it doesn't change any of the basics of what we understand about the
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way the climate works and the way we understand about the effects of greenhouse gases you can pretend the risks don't exist you can pretend that they're always going to stay the same you can pretend that burning fossil fuel has no interest has no effect rather but as i say that's just sticking your head in the sand if you've got that knowledge if you think you've got already you've also got to let me just finish up let me finish up if you think you've you've got or intentionally although as a great you go do you go down the road and see somebody who's who's not an expert and ask their opinion or you go to an oncologist if you've got a heart problem you go to a you know a cardio cardiologist don't you so you need to listen to the experts here in the experts ninety eight ninety nine percent i did that we have a problem and we've got to start dealing with it ok alexander i'd like to go to you and i want to find i think the example really strict guidelines and i go to the xander please ok we just heard that there's a lot of consensus within the scientific community and i'm going to take mark's word for that ok but one of the problems i have is a bystander i'm not an expert on any of this ok i did really badly in science in
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high school but what has happened to the message about climate change because we keep we're told over and over and over again because scientists disagree we have these emails floating around i mean alexander has the whole message about climate change been modeled in the media partly responsible for that too because of really blown it out of proportion sometimes. i you know you are you're actually hitting hitting a really good point here and it is that the media is playing its role and i don't think it's purpose you know on purpose reporting about anything wrong here but it always has a tendency to show both sides in this case the problem is just as mark has has said that eighty ninety eight percent ninety nine percent of the scientists maybe even more actually do agree on the basic facts they do agree that the work that the temperature has warmed on an average scale over the last one hundred years and it's actually not true at all that it has coal cooled down in the last fifteen years it
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has actually what the last fifteen years on average are the hottest on record that we have experienced so the so we. agree on that the thing is for the media you want to have somebody who who shows the other side so that makes these five or ten people that are out there that are actually still still the nine yet maybe a few more maybe of the dozen i don't really care too much about them but that makes them very prominent and they have hardly any reason to give up the role that they are playing fight frankly guess that i'm in los angeles i did get one minute before we got to the break is it really that much confirms in the scientific community from your perspective well i'm lucky enough to be old enough when i went to school in the seventy's to be told by my geography teacher that we're renting we're entering a new i see it double to consensus back them so scientific consensus to not true so you have another as you have no idea because. no no sorry i was taught in school
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that's not a myth i was told at school that we were and when you enjoy this research i am not sure but i know that i find it i if you look even if you let myself get after it if you look at my documentary if you look at my documentary not evil just for all we even go back and show all the newspapers show the callings from time magazine the new scientific advances are was going to be known as i saw him said it was and all it was in the irish times the new york times it was a consensus no scientists were saying they were wrong the cia reports that the american state department reports same rancher in a new era of. a year of ice age all right and gentlemen i'm going to jump in right here why all right gentlemen gentlemen ok we have to go to a break after a short break we'll continue our debate on climate change stay with our team. and if you. still. want.
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to be so much brighter than. a song from plans to questions. please please stop totty dot com.
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welcome back talk i'm peter lavelle tree mind you we're talking about extreme weather around the world. lead. slim lead but first let's see if russians believe in global warming. some of plugging heating quaking what's next all over the world people experience the extreme weather unusual for their region for the season and in general precedent russia is experiencing the hottest summer you know with fifty years coming on the heels of alone and there were cold winter the high temperatures have seen poorest five raids and droughts athletic rushes crop yield
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but has the normal heatwave convinced russian change skeptics according to a recent public opinion poll almost half of russians forty nine percent now accept the principle of global warming thirty three percent remain unconvinced however denying global warming is with us peter are a gentleman we're talking about differences within maybe the scientific community maybe there is. a large majority in a small minority but at the end of the day it's kind of turned into the climate industry because a lot of people write about it people make films about it there are scientists involved non scientists involved there are people who go it both extremes if i go to you alexander the climate industry in a way everyone arguing everyone is kind of benefitting in their own private way but does it really help us understand where we should be going well i mean there's
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clearly a lot of people out there that are not. profiting from from just talking and not acting and you know there's a very clear economic case apart from an energy security case a military security case and an environmental case there's a clear economic case to make to really act on it and every day actually not acting we're losing we're losing economically we're losing people's lives the science has so great the progress over the last years and i'm a very surprised to see the gentleman from from los angeles talking about what scientists are in one thousand seven hundred. i mean we that was probably around the time still when we thought that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer and we had a time where very powerful people on this planet actually doubted that the earth is a ball and it's not drowned it's actually flat so we're having these these i think we have to overcome this last stage it is really in our interest in our and economic interest to act and not just not just talk about it of course it's an
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issue that touches people very personally and you know again the gentleman from los angeles talking before about our rich life in the cities you know we hardly feel these heat waves yes it's hot outside but you know we really experience climate actually really rather as the weather it's hot tomorrow. it's raining let's bring in umbrella to work that's the kind of way we experience it but if you go outside of the cities if you talk to the farmers worldwide if you talk to the people who live closer to nature they going to tell you these stories is happening right now and actually over the last ten years and i'm really frank and honest about this i had a lot of climate deniers in my group of friends people you know who didn't believe too much into it and a lot of them have changed because they see the ground getting yellow in the summer in places like vancouver where that has and they are marching out before and nobody remembered that this happened so they see that firsthand and there's an excuse i mean excuse me gentlemen is it touches people. in that revenue or you know the good
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gentleman in los angeles is making films about it and that's his right and it's interesting because you sound like he's even economics did you not listen to. they did not listen they did not listen to the they did or did you not listen to the previous report it's the warmest summer in moscow for fifty years and you know that's a very important part think fifty years ago it was warmer. so what happened fifty years ago that's a pre-industrial that's pre this huge expansion of industrial activity pre-development. industrious so this really. was. the one of the coldest summers on record in los angeles where where where and where one of the coldest summers in los angeles on record. it's i haven't seen this so this is a classic is it you know you see the same goes for sixty six degrees all of a series of the three is going to last six degrees colder than normal you know it
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was a statistic yesterday that washington is harder than spain for one hundred thirty years one hundred thirty years ago it was harder so what caused that it was and it wasn't global warming it's called weather it's a big planet there will be extreme weather all over it and i want. to tell you it was all trying to. please you gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen while i was. calmed down to only. jam into the well i would say one of the issues is one of the issues he got is why back to the climate getting emails ok no but one of the things that people say go back to the climate these days constantly that flying if i get more i learn that when they talk well or if they push it up mark if i could ask you how do this how does the scientific community get around the argument that we just heard that ok it was fifty years ago it was cold twenty five years ago i mean it's incumbent upon folks like yourself to kind of convince people like our guest in los
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angeles why that is the case it's because intuitively he's right because it was quite a few years ago no more i want marquee names or go ahead go ahead yeah no i completely agree with you and the problem is you do need to have some basic understanding of statistics to see the difference here if it was you know if it was a hot summer every hundred years through the last thousand yes it's been hot before and it wasn't global warming that caused it but it's now hot if we now get the same kind of heat waves every five years or every ten years or every two years perhaps becoming more frequently and so that reflects a change in the average which reflects the fact the earth is heating up now you don't you don't have to be a total mathematician but you have to have some basic knowledge and i don't think the gentleman in los angeles either understands it or want to understand it because his goal here is to confuse the public by denying the simple physical reality of why warming that's right attributed by to. motives to someone you disagree with markets a great attitude attribute b.s. motives to someone you disagree with me are you interested in science are you interested in debate or are you just interested in b.s.
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insults say i'm not interested calling me a denier linking me to the denial of the holocaust all those be doing to help you listen to the issues we do know that is around this reason and it's just just a natural if you listen to call that childish and hold phil jones from climate gets i've used mike's trick to hide the flying hide to the clay those are very significant words what. do you know what you are doing just fine i remember you use mike's trick the hi do you understand what about email was talking about typing if you want to tell you what you're talking about hiding in the train on time but your fun. playing in temperature of the tell me tell me when you're from science i'll give you the last three of course that you can stick a stick. right so tell me come on tell me the difference explain to me what was missing in the context context context this is in the minds of the so you know this is a few for me to be a small of so much to my. journalistic inquiry my journalistic inquiry will you
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tell you the question being funded by oil companies if it is the a b a small us. yes michael mann said there's been an increase in temperature in the last hundred years aided that in the nature article phil jones says i've used makes trick to hide the decline so there's actually been declining temperatures recently and they've used a trick to hide it so. let's pretend it's hard all over the world to know that this was really entertaining enough for serious crimes and you actually want to quote the climate game if you actually want to understand what it was a time when you name just one of us is a literature. we can't explain it and that's a discrete this. mean i should probably just quote from it's only what you said we're not getting the conversation because they're for their wonderful source their wonderful source of information about the tricks and the deceptions that these climate alarmists to use you know you to prove you're going to jail and that's all i was was like here in the. last week just been here
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a little bit. bothers me so much people know i'm sorry let me jump in here with really bothers me and i'm not pointing any fingers on this program here but there is a lot of finger pointing at each other and i still it really befuddles me i mean if we really care about the planet why can't we find some kind of consensus why do we have this kind of arguing when we know i mean if it isn't global warming how do we just deal with climate change ok that's kind of a compromise here because it sounds like i get on my pointing fingers on this program but each side of this debate says the other one has all teary or motives that are very very bad alexander you to address that because it seems like the discourse is just for a. we're not getting anywhere. well i mean you know. let me let me disclose something here i am not an atmospheric scientist i am not an atmospheric scientist that is an international panel it's the who is who of international atmosphere
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scientist ocean ocean scientist natural scientists and international panel it's the who is who of who has something to say ok and they come to very clear reports and i just want people who watch this program to look at these reports as very good summaries easy to understand summaries those are not all i mean this though this is a mainstream science of a number one and number two. in the last fifteen years there hasn't been one single let me read people's one single article out there that that made it past by a peer review board that's actually doubting two things either that it's the temperature is warming and that this is recorded and secondly the human cost greenhouse gases are the main culprit for this that's not going on and article i explained i want right to know about the winds like i mean like like me like not so actual scientist but a filmmaker in that glass and other things that he can change the size of the
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silence i don't want to call you a liar so the question should really go to me it's like i was only known in law you're a liar so i have to assume that you are your miss. and i have to assume that the dude just misinformed richard lee you see they had a saying because for example from mit yet richard richard lindzen has published many many many papers challenging that actually on science if you just call richard lindsey's the head of a written notice the it's about donna richard lindzen he's the head of atmospheric sami's and you can instead of iraq on the brakes as i think i want to do with my shoes is institute of technology he's the one that he's the one of us a lot of pharaoh no i think he said to me you know you said alexander was still saying. yes alex said there was no science that now will secretary geithner's alexander was in the same way what it was and i'm not going to trail it i'll go through a list of the scientific papers if you like but alexander was i just quoted you know i'll write general motors out of it just any other wheels run out of time
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saying we're going to seal sales are a very very lively articulate way thanks to my guests today in oxford new york and los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rule. and. every month we give you the future we hope you understand how we'll get there and what tomorrow brings the best in science and technology from across russia and around the world join us acknowledging update on our g hungry for the full story we've got it first the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers.
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forest fires ripped through central russia killing dozens and leaving thousands more homeless join me later for more. also this hour floating fear emergency crews rushed in a desperate search to retrieve thousands of barrels of highly poisonous chemicals from a chinese river which could reach russia in just two weeks. john and spirit more criminals didn't seem to be going back to the european court of human going beyond the continued detention of some convicts as dangerous after their sentences have ended.
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news from russia and around the world this is all she was me you lash about holloa thanks for joining us the russian all mia has joined the fight against a raging forest fires that have already killed twenty five people and left thousands homeless in central russia a record breaking heat wave which has lasted weeks is to blame. reports now from a village ravaged by five just forty kilometers from the school. just take a look at the damage around me here these charge remains show what can happen when record heat meets drought like conditions and this was somebody is home and look nothing here is as it once was everything has been demolished now this family made it out ok but they're heartbroken and that's been the story throughout central russia where forest fires have ripped through the central area killing twenty five people and leaving two thousand homeless so now people are trying to figure out what's the next step how do they go on.


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