tv [untitled] May 20, 2011 3:30pm-4:00pm EDT
zaki from moscow well top stories the chief is accused of sexual assault will be tied to the house arrest after being granted one million dollars bail but there are concerns the scandal surrounding his resignation might jeopardize the financial aid given to ailing economies even the survival of the euro currency. president obama's reinstated his view on palestinian borders meeting with the israeli prime minister in the white house the backs of palestinian state within one hundred sixty seven
borders plus if you supported globe russia and the e.u. could angry rejected by israel. and two former presidential candidates and jail sentences for inciting election unrest well the verdicts on two others have been postponed her supporters say they're being punished for standing up to the country's long time leader president bush. is just half an hour here on r.t. with me kevin our next though our debate program cross thought discusses what america's future focused might lie. hungry for the full story we've got it for. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on the party. came. along in loving across congressman peter lavelle a loveless marriage or
a dangerous embrace take your pick but pakistani american relations probably can't get any worse barring a complete breach where is this troubled relationship going and can both sides find a common language regarding the fate of afghanistan. ok. across the pakistani u.s. relations i'm joined by our men my g.d.r. in washington he's a senior research associate at the american enterprise institute in islamabad we have seen a sad case she is a security analyst and columnist and in tucson we cross the hudson she's an associate professor at the university of arizona all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at where this troubled relationship stands now. pakistan and the u.s. strategic allies on a collision course both say they're committed to fighting terror though each in its
own way and both have divergent ideas about geopolitical interests pakistani american relations have rarely been described as good but i can hear us navy seal raid that killed osama bin laden on may second the shaky alliance is finally in question that the world's most wanted was discovered the camp near islamabad has deepened american distrust of pakistan even some of pakistan's biggest supporters in the u.s. have had to put on a brave face coming to terms with the fact that pakistan may have been harboring bin laden for years it is fair to say that some about globally in the oceans. have deep reservations about whether it. is the same goals or prepared to be a full partner pursuing those goals. there are calls in some quarters in progress for a shift in. april. less
there is a proven in the current situation well american lawmakers may be losing faith in their pakistani counterparts pakistanis have paired all accusations and denounced washington's unilateralist according to islamic the us has time and again violated pakistan's sovereignty and not only this back is going to nightly in the voting al qaeda it has infallibly reminded by the us that it too has been a victim of terrorism such baseless speculation may make exciting cable news but it doesn't reflect the fact pakistan has as much reason to despise al qaeda as any nation the war on terrorism is as much pakistan's war as it is america's recently the obama administration and its allies in congress have been scrambling to keep tensions from spiraling out of control i mean washington say they want to reconsider aid to pakistan approximately twenty billion dollars over the last decade but if you want to provoke pakistan into shutting down transit routes but
supply u.s. troops stationed in afghanistan. our partnerships including our close cooperation with pakistan have helped put. pressure on al qaeda and its leadership continued cooperation will be just as important in the days and those days ahead are all about a renewed focus on afghanistan where there is little evidence that foreign troops will capture and kill more insurgents and their presence helps to recruit and though the obama administration knows that the status quo in its relations with pakistan is unlikely to remain it also realizes that securing pakistan's cooperation is vital to its strategic goals in the region marsha charnel crosstalk . ok well i'd like to go to you first in tucson you got up first this morning for the program we just heard some words from my u.s.
secretary of state clinton about how important this relationship is but a few hours ago we had defense secretary gates say the following if i were in pakistani shoes i would say i've really i've already paid a price i've been humiliated it's been shown that the americans can come in here and do this with impunity now that is gloating here so even within the administration there seems to be a huge difference in how to approach this where do we go from here because the americans are saying this is an important relationship but you should feel humiliated and we will do it again if we want how do you how do you square the circle there. well i think what's going on first of all is that we're on the eve of an obama administration reset american policy not only in pakistan afghanistan but also throughout the whole middle east so we are coming up on what we think will be a major speech by obama in which he doesn't actually directly address this
particular case but using the example of egypt shows how he wants to really gauge the leverage that the united states exerts over some of its military partners in this case namely egypt i think the stage is being set for this reset with a kind of a good cop bad cop routine within the the american administration some people are acting as the good cops kerry perhaps clinton. tending to their traditional allied relationship with pakistan and emphasizing you know that this codependent relationship is still central and very important while others obama himself. gates and mullen are emphasizing the harder and in their bad cop role emphasizing. an attempt to put america in the driver's seat and
to use their our military aid and leverage. to pummel the pakistanis into. a more compliant relationship with us in test whether that will work remains to be seen well it remains to be seen if that argument in washington if the pakistanis will like their good cop bad cop approach because they can do exactly that to the united states if they wish they have a lot of cards actually don't think. yes indeed they do have i think it is important to highlight the fact the united states and pakistan they have conflicting interests in afghanistan and also in the region and that has been the nature of a relationship between islamabad and washington for the past five decades indeed during the cold war we noticed. pakistan as mean enemy was india india and i said
allied with pakistan because of the soviet union and it is the same today the united states is fighting the taliban and al qaeda and its associates in afghanistan while pakistan and its army and intelligence service support some of the groups who are killing americans that have. inside afghanistan and also victimizing their pakistani people inside pakistan as well so what's important at this time is for both sides what what's important now for both sides is to align their interests and retain their relationship because this is not sustainable and for above all it's important for pakistan to rethink its policy into a region towards india and afghanistan as well suck using terrorism as a policy tool and instead cooperate with the united states and the international community to eliminate the terrorist group which is. grating freely on its soil and i think that the killing of very large and provides
a very good opportunity to start it up again i think it is lying about what about i mean we talk about our reset obama tried that before he wasn't much success before the great awakening but what kind of reset does islamic jihad want to have with washington again when it takes two to tango in this relationship and is it was just pointed out islam and has a lot of cards to play. where is the i'm about does have a lot of cards to play but is from about also is in a bind its internal security situation is inch chatter. there are terror attacks all over the country and the us drone strikes in the tribal belt and now crossing over into have been carrying out a unilateral military operation go against the sentiments of the population that is not about to take into account this is a democratic government. also the entire us.
sort of agenda against the intelligence community in pakistan strategic intelligence community in pakistan has been whipped up against a background of these strikes which are considered aggressive by the pakistani population so rather than giving the democratic. community in pakistan a chance to actually reset the relationship internally between the civil and the military and redefine it for all times to come it has made them come to the end of the intelligence community to try to protect them because the intel is the people of pakistan are also the same opinion they think this is a conspiracy against pakistan they're trying to cut off the head of the pakistan military and a headless body as you know is useless very easy to conquer so the manner in which the u.s. is operating inside pakistan is not helping any of the stakeholders in pakistan that's one thing if i am i going to if i go to tucson here well what do you think
about that because congress is dragging it to take money away from the base the huge age package that was given last year i mean again i mean is this just treating pakistan as a true in child because the sentiment in pakistan is very anti-american as was pointed out. yeah well i think it's a very it's a very tricky game to play i think it's absolutely correct to say that to the extent that the united states is perceived to be is acting unilaterally gloating taking a heavy hand one of the risks that is run is a alienating the policy of the pakistani populace and trenching support within the military intelligence establishment i think this is not the goal i think the endgame in fact of the obama administration is to try and preserve some of the larger structure of the alliance while again shifting some of the internal
support a way from the most unpredictable and erratic elements of the military intelligence structure. to wards other elements in the pakistani establishment again it is a very tricky policy and i think the reflection of this good cop bad cop approach to the problem shows that the obama administration is trying again to leave from behind trying to push its leverage in certain ways without inflaming the situation further but again it's a very difficult role to play i come back again to the case of egypt where in fact we were in the midterm when the germans were going to be getting a break and after that you discussed afghanistan r.t. .
can see. the. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter was about to remind you we're talking about the u.s. and pakistan after bin ladin. can. start. ok i've not had to go back to you in washington you know we haven't mentioned the eight hundred pound gorilla in this discussion and it's getting out of afghanistan the u.s. wants to get out of afghanistan and the pakistanis want the americans out of pakistan but they just have different visions and doing that that's what's causing all this tension here isn't it least at this stage here with all of the gloating that we've heard. yes absolutely afghanistan. is a very contentious issue between the united states and pakistan as and i mentioned before the united states and pakistan have conflicting interests in afghanistan.
the taliban and its associates are the enemies of americans and afghan government while they are supported by certain circles within the pakistani establishment this year two thousand and eleven will be a very critical year and afghanistan in july the obama administration is planning to withdraw our. begin withdrawal of troops from the country and also it is the beginning of transition of security responsibilities to security forces and after have been allowed in scaling now the critics of the war here in the united states as well they're there they're trying to convince and ministration to call it mission accomplished and leave afghanistan but i think that that will be very much huge mistake because i've been allowed in is the terror infrastructure and the ideology is sell there as we saw that the taliban announces july first
spring often and we've seen a spike of violence all across the country and the dead are even foreign fighters in eastern afghanistan fighting so if the united states prematurely that would be very much huge mistake that washington abandon afghanistan in one thousand eight hundred nine and when it comes to the relations between the united states and pakistan there are also misconceptions. did elations will improve if the united states withdraw from afghanistan but i believe that the opposite holds true here if the united states prematurely leaves afghanistan that will convince pakistan and its military. to continue its support for the taliban because they will see the taliban. future of afghanistan so what it's needed now for washington to do is to show. commitment. because to succeed in afghanistan means that pakistan also will change its calculus from supporting the
taliban instead of that it was thinking. legitimate ways to have. a loss or influence in the country ok if i go back to islam and so i guess it's all about who controls afghanistan not the afghans themselves are never mentioned in all this it's going to come from islamabad where it's going to be washington ok and they have their puppet there is karzai that they want to support so i mean what is the vision from the pakistani establishment with how do they want to see the americans leave destabilizing the country even more. you know the pakistani establishment. has clearly shown his preference for the establishment of a trade corridor through afghanistan connecting to pakistan connecting to the arabian sea and they want it done in an atmosphere of peace and tranquility and harmony between all the stakeholders in all the states in the region they want friendly government in afghanistan they want
a friendly government in india and of course friendly governments in central asian states that connect afghanistan. in this entire matter pakistan does not see the us helping the us has done absolutely nothing to. sort of bring about a more harmonious relationship between india and pakistan in fact every time they just sort of you know they they're like this is none of our business we don't have to do this they're very much involved in the region they're right in the middle between pakistan and the central asian countries trade relationships with the central asian countries can actually bring a lot of prosperity to pakistan and the us lending his troops right smack in the middle there has ended up hurting pakistan's economic. prospects so given their their activity in the region given their deep involvement in the region given
its impact on pakistan and isn't clear to me and it's politics america saying we don't have to interfere in the park relations this is a matter they should carry it out between themselves does not in their american position to that of the pakistani position the pakistani government the pakistani people the pakistani military looks at it in a very suspicious way you know they then of course like i said before the american military conduct in the region the american drone strikes the american lack of respect for pakistan's sovereignty do you was continuous criticism of the pakistani military intelligence continuous. fissions voice about it but if you are so suspicious why do you call it at the front line stay advised you call it in an alliance against terror my skin not be built on suspicions i don't have to be suspicious you either have to say you're not with us or you have to say you. guys and it's actually a united states of america which is constantly not it has not taken
a clear position on this issue and it's causing a lot of confusion inside pakistan also. it is come to a point where quite honestly if you ask me the relationship has broken down it's a question of time before both sides are going to have to articulate it right. it's very nice to be on it peter can also use your. very. just respond my colleague from a slow about. the pakistani government the pakistani people want friendly relations and our sister neighbors both in india and i would agree with that i think as she is talking about the civilian government and now run by the president zardari but unfortunately this indian government in pakistan is in no position to run its foreign policy and decide on major national issues but it is usually decided by the
army and intelligence service policy intelligence service are pursuing is not in line with the civilian government policies for example the existence of osama bin ladin the number one terrorists around the world just one mile from. pakistan's main military academy which is their. version of point chose the to what extent they are supporting terrorism in the region so i believe that when we are saying that this villian government supports stability that means nothing when they have no say in major foreign policy if i can go to you into something and i mean if i marry the real quickly you want to reply. yeah i just wanted to think even in the handling of the bin now that it's had if united states of america had just shown party just that our party it would have enabled the civilian government in pakistan
to go after they're all going to mince in the i.s.i. if there are any it would have enabled it to take the nation on board and say you know we are going to question our own intelligence agencies but what is going on inside our country everybody would have said that we're not showing our body rushing into the sea dumping it there is giving birth to what the americans love to call the conspiracy theories you know something we have to look at what is of this operation so what i'm saying is the american context in. south central asia right now is rather clumsy i'm glad you got it i want to go you want to sign i mean it's only a matter of time before the united states leaves afghanistan and we could put out another ten years or so but the pakistanis are in the. various elements of it is waiting they're waiting for that ok and they've shown a lot of a lot of staying power here so again you know i mean the americans have fewer and fewer cards there's a lot of bluster and gloating and maybe it's all about domestic politics and budgets and things like that but if you end of the day the americans will leave it
will be the people on the ground good people or bad people or indifferent people that will decide the outcome well i think we've already heard the beginnings of this process happening so there's more and more talk about accommodating the taliban in the long run again after this decade. of the war on terror in fact the end game does involve. you know a merging of the pakistani vision of afghanistan and the u.s. vision of afghanistan in order to do that however that's where i think we're getting this worster and this gloating and. the bad cop part of the u.s. strategy in order to do that for domestic purposes within the united states. there is this strategy are ramping up. the incursions ramping up the
drone strikes ramping up the gloating and again to the stand that. undermines. the seville did the rather weak civilian structures in pakistan it's a very dangerous game to what extent does this american strategy really sideline the military intelligence complex and to what extent does it actually increase the confusion increase opulence support increase animosity and the accidental the so-called accidental guerrilla syndrome on both sides of the border it's hard to tell at this point again you have two different options here will the obama administration leverage its considerable influence in pakistan. again on the egyptian model in which it seems to have come around leverage the egyptian military into a much more sustainable situation going forward or will it continue to look like
the israeli model in which the beast continues to be fed and which netanyahu is literally looking over obama's shoulder as he makes this resets each for the middle east and in which the the regional so-called u.s. proxy actually continues to drive the relationship so will it go ok i want you to hear our words we want to hear you the only way in washington where you mean the last word you got about twenty five seconds go ahead. but just quickly i'd like to mention that i think that we have over is taking the power and also ensuing so if the american policy is inside pakistan i think that it was soft the problem that we see inside pakistan it's not as a result of the u.s. policies it's because of domestic policies so it's a very good opportunity for pakistan to do some soul searching turkey five thousand
innocent pakistani people have been murdered by a terrorist activities over the past nineteen years so it is time for already really very interesting story a with them time to run out of time here many thanks my guest today in washington islamic and in tucson and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk means. they'll be taken to. the i. want to. critique three. three. three. three. three lead the world free blog video for your media project. gone to our t.v.
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