tv [untitled] July 18, 2011 11:30am-12:00pm EDT
because i know her job. well to british soil it's spot on to the tirelessly. for the. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the reports on. itself past the hour here i'm ok this is i'll see the taliban subsonic its assault on afghan officials claiming responsibility for more high ranking killings this comes from a safe against the hyundai of the control of the country's provinces to know the full says it's a huge question mark save their ability to save. the crisis in the gulf in rupert murdoch's media empire spreads to the british police the country's most senior policeman has been followed finds debt b.c.
increasing over their legs of the newspapers executives embroiled in the scandal eva phone hacking and bribery. and russian security forces for a major terror plot named moscow police have arrested a group of people from the called the thieves who were allegedly plotting a time trial that there is and that major trial of hogs i may speak about is cost or gas debates around nato its relations with libyan rebels will live on what's next for the country. can. start.
following welcome across top gun control about libya's stalemate in the sand and nato bombing campaign and aid to anti kadafi rebels have only hardened political facts on the ground western intervention was intended to last a few weeks now is open ended instead of dislodging khadafi nato allies are left to bicker among themselves. can. start. to cross the nato mission in libya i'm joined by io johnson in london he's the founder and director of viewpoint africa also in london we have marco gas a key is a political analyst an expert on south east european affairs and in barcelona we cross to omar archer he is a lecturer in politics of the modern arab world at the university of exit are all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want omar i'd like to go to you first in barcelona how would you assess nato's operations in libya to date because depending on the news source you want to read it stalemate
it's quagmire. we've coming across reports that rebels committing human rights. violations they're not looking so pretty anymore and it's just basically a civil war that has come to a stalemate so how would you assess nato's operations today. well that's a civil resistance campaign to educate to ship it somehow turned into an on conflict because that was the choice of of their feet to a large degree and it is intervention came out of necessity calls from the. opposition fighters nineteenth of march the situation was quite get there was a defense forces were. given what given the history of cardiff is level of aggression given what happened. there was the likelihood of so i mean look all they let me ask you do you think if you think playing a positive role right now. it's hard the whole situation is not
positive the whole situation is obviously far from ideal but relatively speaking there is some advancement on the ground given that with this started in march. whether this will yield a military victory for the. guy and see the international council and the need to have it would end up in a political compromise by which gets out or some of its clans and some of its regime figures will be part of the future of libya this is what's that's the question that is. put forward now ok the other thing also is well how many negative consequences can happen in any on campaign we can talk about you know what can happen in the post as well whether he stays in power or partly in power or whether . some of it is all whether he goes away in both cases there will be some negative consequences and i thought make his intervention ok mark what do you think of our
intervention in libya today. later in the program won't you quote some of the figures within nato bickering among themselves and pointing fingers i guess they didn't think about it too far ahead when they started this campaign go ahead. well nato always goes into places as i know very well from from previous experience later interventions for its own reasons there's no concern there for any opposition however marginal will have a morally justified they may or may not be nato is. aggressive alliance which operates on the basis of that it wants to place its. military in key areas of the world command and control resources and territory that's what it's there for it's not some kind of moral creature it's a beast really and when the nato powers can't make money and propaganda work for them and undermine governments abroad then they move on to the military machine and
the propaganda the false stories the indictment by tame courts we should know better and all of these things are being done in many other countries and have been done so libya now and the expense of all the libyan people as well i think we would have had a short conflict here perhaps there was a case for pressuring colonel gadhafi to listen to the demands for change within his own society but there's no case to launch a major war and an open ended one a new iraq. on the people of libya this will not lead to anything good it's not leading to anything good now but it was never designed to be designed to lead to occupation and division of libya by the nato pact so that's what it's there for that's what is going to do you know if i go you in london also i mean nato didn't plan for this very well i mean and it certainly looks like they're bombing campaign is not only moving anything forward gadhafi still there it is just killing civilians now as well i mean is there is this public bombing campaign can you be yield any final result can you bomb this country to peace. well every day that goes
by libby has been caught into bits and pieces the infrastructure is being damaged not to mention that the people are being displaced from their homes and people are living in abject fear but of course the longer it goes on the more likely the war is meant to go bad against nato because it's very much about of hearts and minds how can you maintain the status quo how can you ensure you keep the coalition in the fashion it is currently with nato together and how are you going to be able to build on consensus internationally as you know currently the chinese the the indians russians and a few other countries are have expressed reservations about nato bombing and the longer it's going to take it's going to cost a lot more money a lot of these countries are not in the mood for spending money and from a from a from an imagery perspective it's damaging every second because more than likely you can make more mistakes you can get the coalition to get the wrong in from of his bombings and become pain to go into the wrong against them so i think the longer it goes the more likely nato is to find itself in hot water as we've been
seeing over a period of time and the longer it does go gadhafi could think that he's been able to survive this long he could go alone to the end but it's very very difficult to see how we can come out of this one simply because the the overwhelming power is just way too much for him and but the thing is he's not we can enough to defeat the rebels on the rebels are clearly not strong enough to b.p. to defeat him so we have this stalemate situation which is not really anything that anyone and i think as a whole the libyan people are suffering omar. virus a lot of there's been some news reports that france is in in direct talks with members of the gadhafi regime though just prior to that france condemned italy for calling for a ceasefire and then simultaneously have gadhafi spokespeople say there should be a cease fire should be approved prerequisite for some kind of negotiations so it looks like there is there elements there that people want to talk what's wrong with the libyan proposal a cease fire to talk no more bombing and see where we go what do we have to lose.
the main issue is that we have very serious credibility problem and credibility problem comes from forty two years of history when he was ruling but also a credibility problem no longer go on for a long long ago the west is racist mr gadhafi remember remember all the pictures with tony blair with you know obama with you know the elite of the west i mean so there is a credibility issue but i mean it goes back and forth right. yes of course here i mean. i think one of our colleagues just mentioned the west operates on visas of interests and when interests intersects then you know a lot of the human rights violations are looked not looked at but when the interests do not intersect then those human rights violations are highlighted and that's the case with libya obviously oil interest and other interest on the moral
outrage i mean we were talking now about the violations that but has done throughout his rule is rule but if you if you want to speak about an i.c.c. indictment a correct one that could have happened in july in june one thousand nine hundred six when the deficit forces committed a massacre a crime against humanity in obviously in prison in tripoli where twelve hundred thirty political prisoners were gunned down with mass graves and i visited the area later on in two thousand and ten and you would have stories from the outside as people outside the prison and stories from acts detainees who witnessed a lot of this mess that is so it's not like something that was nobody knew about but you had actual witnesses that heard and know some of that he feels of what's happening but this did not happen this was postponed until two thousand and eleven where you know the interests were not pulling together all sorts of legally expedient expedient markel fine go to you i mean why not why can't the negotiations
if they're on both sides of the conflict you're talking about it why can't you really tempt to talk in stop fighting i mean you don't have to like each other. well the basic reason is four letters nato it's not not a talking organization you could say because basically if it was it would listen to the mandate it's been given the mandate security council resolution one thousand nine hundred three demands it's very first clause the immediate establishment of a ceasefire so what part of that doesn't and nato not understanding cease fire and if nato ceases fire the rebels it supporting will cease fire could our people also be forced to cease fire then you may before things get much worse have a chance of dialogue which the resolution also calls for and then you may have a chance ultimately for reconciliation between the peoples within libya before too much murder too much death has occurred and before too much foreign occupation and puppet governments have been installed so the best chance for libya is that this
war stops very quickly indeed but of course that isn't what nato wants because nato wants that the usual suspects within nato i should say the ones who attack everywhere and always use the same excuses want to do the same thing they did elsewhere here they want to occupy libya they want to get their compliant puppet government in which will give them cheap deals good contracts they want they got it all planned out and the libyan people will be the victims if they allow this war to continue and that will include the rebel side of the year it sounds really just thing to me is it with iraq they didn't plan for after the invasion it seems like in this case with live you have everything planned except for winning the war where you think of. well yes if there's one thing is that the americans and some of its allies have got to learn from the experiences that they saw in somalia not to major in afghanistan and iraq it's failed miserably in those areas and if it continues in the fashion it is with libya we are likely to go down that same route i think the
concern all around is how do you ensure that you maintain that what the mandates the u.n. mandate clearly calls for which is not regime change is protection of civilians and property so i think it's going back to the blueprint how can we get major to start complying to international regulations in terms of maintaining the status quo rather than choosing and for me it's all its own opinion as to whether you want to get rid of gadhafi or not mark or you want to jump in there. yeah it's not just international regulations it's international law and nato does believe that it cannot just manipulate its way to gore or deceive the security council once it's in there on any basis it's going to act on its own basis it just arrogance by the western powers i believe it's about a colonial. background these this is the new imperialism that we're faced with i think it's the biggest danger to a stable world that simon's both russia and i am going to be here is the region here we go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . if you. still
markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's concert for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to kaiser report on our key. to. welcome back across the uk i'm peter all about the true mind you were talking about the protracted conflict in libya. egypt. i want to find back to you in barcelona it isn't this kind of. attitude that absolute surrender total surrender of the khadafi and his his regime is in fact his short side if it doesn't that just keep the conflict going because what reason does
he have he's going to be put on trial by western powers. for war crimes what interest does he have even food he could get anywhere no room at all i mean human nature would say you have to then you have to stand and fight to the death which is continuous this civil war that's protracted war in libya. yeah i partly agree because this is a pro conflict process you know we didn't start by an i.c.c. indictment or started by you know putting him in the polls associates of his international wanted this stock like that start with again as if it is distance campaign maybe organized by local libyan people whether in benghazi or in tripoli or in. other places in libya and then there that apply was a vicious repression campaign that seldon's of this an organized armed campaign by the. demonstrators throughout the story and i'm cells i don't have an intervention
mark but these are the only answer questions. just to ask you if it if it was just a civil resistance campaign how are they able to take a a city i've been garfield six hundred seventy thousand people with a repressive regime and the organs of the relations are very much as i understand this at seventeen yes you're sure that seventeenth of february by the the armed conflict actually by the end of february mainly because there was defections within the regime of cortef you know they t.v. administer the head of this special forces. the justice minister multiple diplomats throughout the world all of them saw the level of oppression and they were amazed at that level and you saw a series of defections which is. what led the situation to be armed because then you have if any personnel saying that the enough is enough we're not going to shoot on our own people and they were siding with people like what we saw similar situations in egypt in tunisia except that the army in egypt in tunisia acted as
one unit so these are sided with the people that look a point there was no you know if i could go to you i mean the thing is that the west has chosen the side ok and into a good comparisons to other situations don't really work because the united states and it's not needed well is choose a certain group of people rebels did actually human rights watch now so you're committing atrocities against their own people here is this just opportunism on the part of some people in libya and western powers. well i think what exactly it is because the letter because i call him. i think to an extent yes because the rebels i've never really been able to show that they can control that country they've never really truly been able to show that they have the government skills to be able to control that country and i think that the west is going to struggle seriously bringing all the various factions within libya as one on the one control post gadhafi than it is what it was to remove gadhafi so i think it's a lack of foresight lack of understanding of the issues on the ground i'm going. to
want to for haste to get into a conflict a confrontation that you know very little about i'm not i think that what's happening now with nato is that they realize that they've jumped into quickly conscious of taking sides too quickly when they should have stayed back and watch the situation and i know awfully over time they could have done so but i think it just shows that the the west so eager to occupy that land on down to control the oil and. it would appear in this particular instance that's supporting the rebels who are clearly ill disciplined poorly equipped who do not have the mandate to control the country it is a poor decision because we can see now that it is not going to achieve anything marco fangirl you maybe just extract later on when we just heard it is nato look like the nato just think this is going to be a quick easy war i mean you can redeem itself after it's easy but humiliation i would say in afghanistan i mean or is it just domestically driven you know sort of cause he has to show that he's somebody you know that can stand up to dictators which though he embraces brace's dictators all of the time particularly before the
arab spring i mean what is the main motivation in your in your opinion. i think the problem is. for nato that gadhafi is an independent ruler who would like to an independent country and if possible an independent confidence colonel gadhafi has come up with the idea of an african development bank and african gold dinar those moves which could hugely lessen the poverty in africa and the dead in debt to this old african nations to the i.m.f. it's a problem also because he plans out as a rival to the dollar and the euro that was a mistake saddam hussein tried a similar thing in two thousand and he was invaded as well so it's not a clever idea for a medium right country with oil in it to actually be planning your own currency because the big the big world powers on the west on too keen on that scenario so really he was a threat to them all reserves were very attractive to them very close to them and very high quality so really he ticks all the boxes for a good invasion plus they had all historical scores to settle because gadhafi came
to power on the basis of removing a british puppet rule in the first place so i would say if they want to get rid of him let's be lections in libya let's let the people decide let's respect the losers in those elections but let's hold elections and if mr gadhafi is so unpopular let the people tell us and if he's not let's find out. if you talk now to that is going to be telling you that if gadhafi clearly house shown that he has said that he will live and die in libya is there not said that several times and because he is now being squeezed to the wall these are no means of carrots who come out of the situation and can negotiate his way out of trouble i think that the future is very very own kind for libya and we could see a rogue state developing over time especially something similar to what we've seen in somalia so it's a very difficult time for everyone concerned i agree with it's very interesting omar they did this let's continue on that point i mean we really creating a rogue state particularly if the country is partitioned i mean that is also
a possible option here where you have a partition is it was pointed out early in the program nato bombs fell on a country they didn't really know very much about. ok i'll give you the positive scenarios and the negatives one obviously that's an intriguing national council right and two dashes on their interim because it didn't not say that it will take over power after their feet says that it will be there. to just start a transitional period after that there will be a constitution police elections based as he has democratization process takes over in libya to transfer it from almost a fiefdom to a modern democratic country with with constitutions so that's the whole but obviously in any society there are too many variables going on and too many actors . and you can have negative consequences one of them is obviously you guys are trying to lie society what happened and that was again called the deficit choice
and we should not avoid that transition of a situation where there was peaceful demonstrations of the situation was an armed conflict. post armed conflict you have and that those and those are tribal society with arms around this is one of the problems obviously and especially for kolkata for himself that's the choice of staying is actually dangerous for him if he lost power if he lost control of the country because it now he has been there was almost every tribe whether in the east or in the west whether from is internal to the south are all but. one of the issues the tribal war there and their politics the other issue is their offices this summer here the issue of divisions marking on a job in there if i want to just say this isn't something colonel gaddafi has brought about deliberately on himself he clearly like most rulers including repressive one throughout the middle east once in a quiet life the fact is this problem has been visited on him by somebody else's agenda and it's a western colonial power agenda which means more people to his country and i know i
know lots of examples throughout the world of repressive regimes will gradually open themselves up to them across isolation and it's happening didn't need a wall it didn't need a nato attack it needed to. even before any of this happened and that's what we haven't got and it's all very well blaming this because after you fall for the situation let's remember using powerful forty two years and pretty much it was stable and getting better he managed to create a man made river project which is for the most one of the key for my elements of independence from north africa east he's done a great deal for his people subsidized housing much cheaper free education i mean maybe he's a socialist leaning agenda didn't suit me us but i don't see too many things that he could have done differently and certainly i think now he really very much in favor of a peaceful transition to a better system and not the wall one which nato proposes ok omar looks like you want to disagree very go ahead but. i quite disagree. that he came in
one nine hundred sixty nine by a cool remove the border did ousted most of the coup plotters with him jailed some of them most of them for obamacare and then you had a series of extremely repressive campaigns throughout the seventy's from the mid seventy's started during the eighty's and throughout the ninety's maybe opposition after opposition was felt including by the way the socialists and the leftists many of them didn't want to give the foreign a deal institutionalized sounds standard for the middle east were ousted and including for folks who are nationalists like the national. from all ideological colors most of them were ousted and this is how he stayed in power there was no elections there was no attempt to institute institutionalize the country we're talking about economical option this is a country that is ruled by a very small clique that benefits from exactly saudi arabia truly lucite was only a starter source for many reasons i mean you had your grandmother going to be just
been through this going to see. this as a departure in the middle east that of the family in the middle of the loss of her father the only socialist journal in general rather centrist. oh my oh go ahead if you had the common sense the common sense approach is the fact that it's people power we've seen we've seen a movement across the north africa across the middle east where people are taking ownership and asking for change and this is just an example of that gadhafi had been in power for forty two years he's time was up nonetheless the people said they wanted change the question is not about people wanting change itself it's where the change can happen without foreign intervention is for the libyan people to determine their own cause to determine their own country and that's not what's happening currently ok mark i'll give you last year you had what brought the plane into the valley for this question all the libyan people are against him as omar suggests but how is it that he's managed to arm the entire city of tripoli how is it going they clearly are on his side in this mass demonstrations going on over the layout we don't look falsify they look as genuine as anything else i've seen coming
out of libya he clearly has a huge amount of popular support as well let's not blind ourselves so that. i didn't say the old injection or they begin to cut their feet i didn't say that i said the overwhelming majority want to change the want to force the country gentlemen we've run out of time it doesn't look like this to be treated just like the war in libya is going to and many thanks to my guests today in london and in barcelona and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. celiacs time and remember rostock rules. if you. think you. will be. bringing you the latest in science and technology from the ground. we've got the future covered.