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tv   [untitled]    August 23, 2011 8:00pm-8:30pm EDT

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libya's power structure is shaking at its core as rebels stormed a donkey's compound and take control of tripoli so could this be the start of a second arab spring. and while libyan rebels are pushing their way into tripoli western forces are pushing their way to the oil fields so when the stakes are this high will that mean anything goes. was human rights and wrong nato pushes its way into libyan affairs but doesn't really have the best intentions at heart. and come to syria never mind all those nasty rumors about the country being
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in turmoil everything is just fine well we'll take you inside the p.r. battle brewing. it's tuesday august twenty third eight pm in washington d.c. and christine for you're watching r.t. . well it's beginning to look a lot like egypt dramatic pictures of people celebrating in the streets in libya a rebel flag even hung in the compound of moammar gadhafi talk about long time dictator following a victory and of the start of a new era asperger duffey himself there are reports that he has vowed martyrdom or victory in his fight against nato but many in the streets of tripoli tonight are already calling today b. and of the gadhafi regime there is hugging and partying as we speak but when the celebration and jubilation ends what happens next are you correspondent i wanted to
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come take a look. the regime is crumbling. the media and rebels are cheering. same cheers and tears could be seen in a just in february the nation outfit their longtime leader hosni mubarak but six months on many egyptians say their hope is being crushed by reality but. you know i love the revolution when it happened i welcome that let's look at the time with the light at the end of the tunnel we see it's not getting better we have nothing to eat just don't tell me about democracy for hungry people just didn't manage the egyptians now are not governed by he. said it's their army. the army that has strong ties with the west and by washington the military regime the edifice the institutions that were the athens the fundamental essence of the
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mubarak regime those remain and we can see that thousands of people have been brought to military trial since the end of the the popular revolution that ousted the barracks in tripoli the body taking over is the national transitional council also not chosen by the leading people yet the council is being recognized as the legitimate government of libya by our allies who've been helping oust gadhafi many mediums are outraged by the tank their foreign powers are effectively making vital choices there's too much wealth and geopolitical strategic value to libya to let it only become reformed in democratic rights and universal participation by the citizenry. western powers need to implement a western economic and military agenda and therefore the people who will eventually command the political situation in libya and the military situation will be or will
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indeed be supported and buttress by western powers western power. first of throw all their support behind the legion national transitional council giving them billions of dollars and weapons to gain control but the rebels are far from being a united group what the newbie is going to face after that is a period of prolonged chaos nobody knows the outcome this is as i said in the beginning this is trying to construct this is not democracy against the taliban revolutions in egyptian leave you have developed under a different scenario in egypt it was an uprising the new leader in libya is really an insurgency whose brackman by the west then those weapons are still in their arms and they're not going anywhere and many analysts are saying that libya's could find themselves in a much worse situation than the egyptians because on top of power crisis similar to the wanted gyptian or having to leave you could be facing a fresh outbreak of violence that they and believe on tomorrow i'm going to shut down reporting from washington archie there are various comparisons being made with
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what's happening in libya with what happened in panama back in one thousand eighty nine iraq in two thousand and three or as we just saw could this turn into the continuation of what started in tunisia and egypt also help answer some of these questions i want to go to a doctor in shapiro he's a professor of political science at yale university in new haven connecticut he's also the author of this book the real world of democratic fairy. i delighted to be with you have a doctor's apparel i want to think back to iraq the fall of saddam mission accomplished you know but also the other side of that equation an entire country used to things like calming clean water electricity that for months totally went away the same thing to an extent as we just signed i am supporting egypt where there was unnecessarily gold at the end of the rainbow can you see this happening in libya how daunting is this task lies ahead so i thought your report was very insightful and suggestive but nonetheless the comparison that comes to mind with me
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is to none of the countries that you mentioned but rather to afghanistan because first of all we have a child believe a civil war going on now and us invasion or a democracy uprising. and and secondly we have no history of democratic politics in the region and i think that it's a sobering thought because i think the the the challenge facing then whoever comes to foreign libya in creating the rule of law is going to be much more similar to the challenges that have faced the karzai government in afghanistan and then what's going on in egypt or what has gone on in iraq are you just saying because there is sort of a more tribal mentality in libya as we see in afghanistan not only that we've had a six month civil war going on in this country furthermore. we
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know very little about the agenda of the forces that are coming to power after all stuff i jolly a little ways a justice ministry in could face government as recently as february of this year mamma had gibril was head of the economic development council in the got the regime and i really thought we was. was libya's. ambassador to india for they cut off the regime these are the real leaders of the national transitional council. they're certainly known have any history as democrats you know they've been associated with a good off the regime for a very long time furthermore i very much agreed with the comment in your report that. this this regime in the making is largely being installed by western powers if we go back to march of this year when the un adopted security council
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resolution one thousand and seventy three that was the no fly zones to protect civilians. that didn't by any stretch of the imagination give nato forces the authority to facilitate regime change in libya which is what we're now doing in the us it is in the lead they haven't recognized the national transitional council in july of this year so there are of course the great danger is either we have a continuing civil war or we have what the libyan people think of as a puppet american regime designed to protect access to the forty one billion dollars of barrels of oil that everybody knows exists and libya i think it's important to point out this national transitional council is made up of so many different factions of course ideally and in a good world they'd all be working together for the same person but these are despite being all rebels these are people who have
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a lot more weapons and they probably used to have nato of course a long record of pursuing political goals with military means you spoke a little bit about this possibility of a western backed government one about you know taken a step further i mean what's the likelihood that what we see next very much in bodies you know the western gray from economic and military agendas put in place there well i had that that is clearly the intention of the obama admin. stray showing the end of the care and of the camera new administration in the united kingdom they want them pro-west and regime they poured billions of dollars into producing that result. my only observation is we don't know how likely they are to be successful what kind of legitimacy will this regime have on the ground in libya if it appears to be a british or american pop at regime. that that has this all the features of the karzai regime in afghanistan it's going to have
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a long term civil war in its hands and the outcome is fine no means clear certainly interesting too when we take a look at just how much this has cost the us so much by some reports eight hundred ninety six million dollars just through the end of july certainly a lot going on there when you when you watch the mainstream media and hear about these winners and losers it's important also to think about some of that cause i want to thank you so much for being here today dr ian shapiro sterling professor of political science at yale and also the author of the real world democratic theory certainly there are so many things to consider when looking at the different aspects of a poster dolfin libya as in any sort of split there's always the question of who gets what the house the kids the oil since the war in libya the country has been pumping about sixty thousand barrels a day instead of its usual one point six million barrels so to what extent will things change and who will lead the way in that pursuit arcee correspondent laura i
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mean isn't the united kingdom and takes a deeper look into the crude intentions in libya. delivered as a promise but seen by many as more of a threat david cameron says nato will stay while libya makes the transition to democracy as allied forces lend support to the rebels to take tripoli to stop the war coalition warns libyans not to expect they getting something for nothing but western powers don't do this without asking for a paper why is it that the head of appearance is running off to paris to meet with the french president well of course he's on very very important issue that's why the western powers tony blair and others struck a deal with gadhafi in the first place it will be exactly what they're going to continue with with appearance further explore those oil riches british government makes no secret of the fact that it's motives in supporting the rebels aren't
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entirely altruistic last year the u.k. export it around forty billion dollars of goods and services to north africa and the middle east but it's black gold that's the key libya has the largest oil reserves in africa western powers look at the region and they talk about humanitarianism ultimately think that oil greg martin says it's impossible not to draw a comparison with iraq he's written a book about the aftermath of the iraq invasion in which he maintains western powers imposed a democracy which played on sectarian divisions that ensured years of tribal struggle but also meant the allies retained control of equal supply while the u.k. government insists lessons have been learned from iraq western oil firms moving to libya even before the fate of tripoli is sealed great oil grab is already beginning b.p. has a contentious oil and gas exploration contract in libya which the u.k.
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government will be anxious for it to resume italian all giant e n i. he is the first to send back to libya and he shares rose in the new french two towel and all three is he did well as investors hopes they soon be able to resume production in libya but at what price to the libyan people the great fear is that just as they did in iraq the creation of democracy which the british interests or the west's interests or welcome these interests and does nothing particular to lure of its quality clubs and we should also talk about the future government of libya the transnational the transitional national council or t.n.c. it is made up of several different factions around the only commonality there everyone there wants to see the far now this is a broadly based governing group and many of their what they want they've been described as everything from a grassroots democratic movement fighting for freedom to an out of control mob of
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armed men fighting for power all of the different their earlier r.t. spokes aphelion angle author of full spectrum dominance to tell a tarion democracy and the new world order he spoke about how he sees the role of the t.n.c. . well what what we have going on in libya for some months now is a major effort by u.s. and nato forces to pour at least a billion dollars by best estimates into the so-called transitional national council it's a rival tribal clan warfare that's going on in libya this is not the democracy movement in any stretch of the imagination. it's simply an insurgency being supported covertly by u.s. financed arm shipments into the rebels and in order to simply carve up the oil fields and get it into western hands rather than in a libyan state hands which could alfie held firmly to that's i think the real underlying issue in this whole nato. bombing of libya well i think we're going to
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face if they do succeed in it looks in all likelihood with the full power of nato and all the. insurgency being supported by u.s. and nato covert intelligence that they are eventually going to topple khadafi and i think what what the libya is going to face after that is a period of prolonged chaos and nobody knows the outcome this is as i said at the beginning this is tried again strive this is not democracy against the taliban areas and so. what emerges from that i think it suits some of the western oil interests especially the british and the french who are fighting like like iran is over grabbing the most to do see oil fields for them for their own companies that that suits them to have chaos because then they can control the the terms of oil it's exploitation much better well this is what nobody can predict i mean these these are not to for the most part to people schooled and democracy over
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generations these are as i say just people who've been promised to the control of the oil in return for making an armed revolution against the established government of libya so you know nato is doing this under a manipulation of the the gulf cooperation council several my. to go over saudi arabia got a deal with washington control in bahrain from from revolt in return for which saudi arm twisted the g.c.c. members to give this. apparent support for a un intervention military intervention by nato and ever since then it's been the most brazen violation of international law that we've seen it's so incredible to me that the the international media doesn't debate some of the some of the legal aspects of this regardless of whether qadhafi's a good guy or a bad guy this is a precedent that is going to be used time and time again no matter who that was really an angle political author and. and i think
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a lot of people start to talk about the situation in libya wrapping up we're entering a new chapter i think it's important to take a look back to february when we first heard the speech from president obama when he announced that libya needed our help the united states has maintained a set of core principles which guide our approach these principles apply to the situation in libya so i said last week we strongly condemn the use of violence in libya the american people extend our deepest condolences to the families and what once of all been killed and injured. the suffering and bloodshed is outrageous and is unacceptable. so i want to hone and we strongly condemn the use of violence in libya that was president obama back in february what for fast forward to today and talk about some of the goals in this mission and whether or not they were achieved and to help me do that i've got national coordinator for the answer coalition brian becker here in studio and richard spencer the executive director at
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the national policy institute who's in whitefish montana and brian let's talk let's start with you here first so much to talk about when we think about winners and losers but just with intervention and i know president obama said time and time again this was in the in the name of human rights were human rights protected as a result of nato intervention you know this is the grossest violation of human rights and we were never the united states or britain or france the colonizers going in slavers of africa intervene in africa or the middle east or anywhere they assigned their mission a noble cause to protect freedom to protect democracy to protect civilians in the case of resolution one hundred seventy three but this is a longstanding policy of the u.s. government to overthrow the government of libya the country that possesses as you've said before the largest oil reserves in all of africa it has nothing to do with human rights and in fact when you bomb it's tripoli when you drop seven thousand five hundred bombs and missiles on a country
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a country that did nothing to the american people that's an act of aggression that's a war crime that's a crime against humanity it's the complete opposite of defense of human rights i right i want to go to richard and and just get your response to that and what you're thinking about what you're seeing today throughout the day and libya. sure i might not use the same language as your other guests but i do agree with him in many ways when the conflict began a pentagon spokesman famously said you're not going to be and the u.n. resolution that was passed was actually only to enforce a no fly zone but i think everyone knew from the beginning that this was going to be a regime change operation and that it was going to attempt to put someone on the throne who was a little bit less threatening to the united states' interests but i what i would ask anyone who supports and you can actually find a lot of the particularly among the formally antiwar left now come out for obama's
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bombing campaign do you think that it would have chilled more people then nato had if they would have led him. to the crackdown on protesters the answer is of course no the bombing campaign has a campaign of killed far more civilians it cost far more damage then it might have done if you would have tried to control a few protesters i think a couple important points that richard brought up in terms of sort of the change the evolution of people's minds that in terms of you know just before we are involved will get there was a lot of anti-war talk by people on both sides of the aisle in this coming political season about the u.s. involvement in wars all of a sudden or involved in libya a lot of people frustrated a violation of the war powers act is this another war but richard is right we are hearing from the mainstream media to politicians to people who are now saying this
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involvement by nato by the u.s. was a victory victory for obama what do you think about what are the messages brian that are sort of getting lost here well the basic message is that. libya's basic fundamental sovereignty has been shredded that the great powers those who have the weapons those with the money those who have decided a long time ago to overthrow this government if they succeed are sending a message not only to libya but to syria to venezuela to cuba to what and any government that seeks to be independent that seeks to control its own resources now we have to remember khadafi drew the ire of the west. right in one hundred sixty nine not because of violation of human rights he suspended any because the wheelus air force base one of the major u.s. air force bases in the middle east a big part of the cold war he visited to british air bases from that day on when
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libya took control of its own sovereignty and said foreign occupation forces and these military bases have to be closed down that's when they decided then in one nine hundred seventy that they were going to overthrow him this has been a forty year long campaign it sends a dangerous message to others who want to be independent i don't think the battle is over yet of course i think inside of libya millions of people contrary to the media assertions dumped on foreign occupation and in fact have in the fact offended the government even if they have grievances against the government richard you started one of your recent articles with i ding dong the oppressive dictator is dead what do you think about this transitional national council that sounds supposed to comment to the forefront then leave this grassroots democratic movement is this realistic or what do you think we see in the coming weeks should down to somehow become and rebels you know and then oh i think that this grassroots
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movement for democracy or something it is a kind of hollywood creation and i think the rebels are essentially people who have a beef against gadhafi they want power they might win even in an accident and that's what they're about but they're also clearly surrogate the united states and nato as i also point out mighty despite all this you know the hollywood story of ragtag group who just won a boat or something like that immediately when they were involved establish a central bank. you know the rubble you know i wonder that was that was one of their first operation so clearly they were acting as surrogate for nato they're actually surrogates of the united states that were. regime change and how to kind of bigger picture way but all that real quickly i think the immediate aftermath of this war is going to be some kind of chaos because these rebels are not just united
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but all ragtag crew these rebels often hate one another they're actually worried that the rebels calling downby to air. one another again they're going to rival different coalitions so i think what is going to need in the immediate aftermath you need something like asking these are certainly are armed rebels who make up a group that may have the one goal in common and taking down gadhafi certainly have a lot of different ideas about how rules should happen right i want to talk bigger picture now certainly it's been quiet a little bit in the middle east in north africa this is a lot of people saying the start of the next arab spring arabs summer post lead the act after libya in addition to libya what about syria what do you see happening next in regards to other countries both rein syria you know move across the middle east and well you can use of compas which is whoever the u.s. corporate media and the u.s. government is demonising whoever they have decided moscow is then in the crosshairs
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of the next the stabilization so you think some of the mainstream media here in this country is calling the shots here well i think there are echoing the policy of the u.s. government they function as a propaganda arm there's a lot made about the u.s. has a free press but you see a complete uniformity of position once the state department in the white house has failed with a position there's a lot of reasons for that but i think what's coming next the united states is determined having if they do succeed in overthrowing khadafi and conquering libya bringing it back into an american british french fear of influence that they will try to do the same in syria so i think we'll see an expanded level of intervention though i always say it's for humanitarian good it's always work to protect civilians we're going to see more intervention that's why this snowball is getting bigger and bigger and i've. going to lead to additional conflicts of status then iraq libya pakistan it's just like the cheney said in this war but with the new administration and real quick richard i want to pose this question to you what's the likelihood that this will follow in the footsteps of the countries that brian
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just mentioned but i think unfortunately there is a great likelihood for the simple reason that i think the regime once a distraction they want a they want to number of words maybe even a big war in order to take people's minds off what's really happening to the country and that is the internal collapse. and that was brian becker national coordinator for the answer coalition as well as richard spencer executive director at the national policy institute. well according to the united nations more than twenty two hundred people have been killed in syria in the last six months largely a result of the recent crackdown on anti-government protesters the president there ashara five says his regime is not in danger at all that syria is doing just fine so our view correspondent reassign otieno went there to find out how safe it really is. during the first part of our journey the road looked quite normal surprisingly
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so for a war torn country the way to hama goes through forms the city where activists have been reporting dozens of civilians last over the last few months of violence. the closer we get to the street the more dramatic history becomes checkpoints appear along the highway. and while later our carcasses are with the military conquering the troops apparently returning to a nearby base after the invasion in homs officially over they stop but not for long . at the entrance to hama all the cars. but that's not the only reminder of the recent unrest. misprision the city of hama became infamous after it appears in an amateur video posted on you tube showing the baathists thrown to the r.c. river comment accompanying this video sad these were residents of hama killed by security forces while syrian t.v. reported they were policeman. despite the president's photo and
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only ration is against anti-government protesters they've recently been reported alteon is being deployed in several cities across syria including hama. we mistake a man as a checkpoint for one of the soldiers but he's just a police wearing special armored protection a measure introduced following dramatic events here this is what's left from the offices in the center of the city of hama officials say it was attacked by three missed the roads operating here shortly before and the city they say that. young group the building on fire and killed at least twenty soldiers who were inside the building at the time of the attack is the only came to remove gary carey's ago find these barricades there were people peaceful demonstrations. and there were clashes between them and the troops. while the governor is sharing his
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views on what's happened a crowd gathers outside the residence. slogan a sound natural forest. but it's great. that it changes in seconds what people start saying it's a completely different picture we lived about a month and a half ago unmeasured this was the most pleasure but after the army the city we see . despite. many bad publicity about the. men i stayed in a brazilian officials though put all responsibility on the people themselves they have the right spots these people just don't want to give the government trying to do reforms the reforms cannot go through in such an atmosphere. i would journey to hammer has been part of a so-called syria is trying to work that no matter what his initial goal was it turned out to be different very.


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