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tv   [untitled]    October 10, 2011 7:30am-8:00am EDT

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i didn't. see it live from moscow i have bonds doesn't science hundreds injured in egypt as a peaceful christian march against islamic radicalism descends into the biggest concert since the revolution which ousted president mubarak. really use that crisis slipping out of control help to come from an unexpected direction russia and the other big developing economies in the brics group are suggesting support but only if the e.u. comes up with a credible rescue plan. poland's prime minister is in line for a historic reelection of exit polls of the late president's twin brother in fact in
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place to see first term was in part characterized by war in relations with russia. and pakistan arrests and doesn't al qaeda links suspects but it's seemingly not enough for america's ten year terrorist tom to accusations that pakistan's a nuclear powered militant safe haven are driving a deeper way between the countries and that's exactly what's up for discussion now here on our team is peter the vals gas examine where pakistan and the us go from here in crosstalk. ok. listen you think you can. follow me in welcoming hostile computor little destined to be front of me again pakistan u.s. relations face a breaking point the u.s. says pakistan is hedging its bets by maintaining ties to militant groups that are trying to undermine the government in neighboring afghanistan and pakistan replies
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that washington's rhetoric is counterproductive and would only play into the hands of militant groups how long can this get really embrace continue living can. start. to cross talk us pakistan relations i'm joined by stephen cohen in washington he's a senior fellow at the brookings institution also in washington we have jacob hornberger he's founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in islamabad we cross to the dk she's a pakistani political commentator and author of the book military incorporated inside pakistan's military economy all right folks crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want you know different points of view and i want my viewers to see it but first tell us about the ed in this key strategic relationship well relations between the u.s. and pakistan have never been smooth after the fallout from the u.s. assassination of osama bin laden the state of the alliance has gone from bad to worse admiral mike mullen one of the most protagonists and officials in washington
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has referred to the country as the epicenter of world terrorism and his most recent remarks have added fuel to the fire. and choosing to use violent extremism as an instrument of policy the government of pakistan and most especially the pakistani army and i am sorry jeopardizes not only the prospect of our strategic partnership but pakistan's opportunity to be a respected nation with legitimate regional influence in his speech to the senate will an accused pakistan's intelligence agency i sigh of colluding with kani insurgent group the u.s. has long been aware of the fact that pakistan may be assisting insurgents but my own statement is the first of its kind it's cost furious reactions in pakistan where authorities have denounced the claims and pointed to the country's own bosses and the war on terror thirty thousand pakistanis it is well known that for doing the cordoba are warming and consequent dispersal of pakistan's intelligence and
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security agencies that interdicted a large number of. for the us losing pakistan as an ally would undermine its strategic goals in the region pakistan provides key military transit routes to vienna stand in houses a base for unmanned u.s. drones but all this hasn't stopped u.s. officials from offering to support military action against iraq on a network that if the experts believe that we need to elevate our response they will have a lot of bipartisan support on capitol hill the bomb i've been astray sure has repeatedly pressure pakistan to attack the haqqani network and groups the us teams of predator its presence in afghanistan and will in statements reflect washington's uneasiness over how the two countries geopolitical interests continue to diverge and the slow entire region and that's where the relationship stands today thank you very much for that matter i should like to go to you first i'd like to quote the president of the united states transition out of afghanistan and leave a stable government behind one that is independent one that is respectful of human
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rights one that is democratic you think that's the primary goal of the united states in its relationship with pakistan because when we look at the relationship afghanistan is very much front and center. of course that is the. that is not how it is from islamabad. i mean i may not necessary necessarily share the view but the way the government and the strategic community looks at the relationship i think where this see is that despite whatever the american claim. the fischel claim here is that the united states may want human rights may want stability but it's a stability which is there is much different from the way it's in visioned in islamabad especially in the general headquarters army's general headquarters and there's a different perception jacob what do you think about it so that stability means one
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thing to one government and stability means something else to another government employee of washington and islamabad well absolutely i mean the u.s. empire is position is let's get some regimes that are going to be loyal to the empire do is they're told it doesn't matter how crooked and corrupt they are the afghan regime is about the most crooked in history possibly and now they're upset because the pakistani government and people within the pakistani nation are not willing to support this imperial occupation that's gone on for more than ten years now they're upset that the pakistani government won't kill its own people to support this crooked corrupt arky patient all regime that they've installed in the karzai regime ok stephen i guess i don't have to ask a question at this point how do you react to what we just heard. i think i should portray to get an accurate picture of how pakistanis feel clearly there's a division in pakistan between the army and some of the strategist who say they
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want to help want to make sure there's a role for pakistan you know honest and they're using such groups as well as tele bond and counties and others to make sure that they have are all mostly to keep the indians out that's a primary strategic goal but i think most doctors that he's a little upset with this kind of extension of pakistan into afghanistan given the fact that talk is that is a failing country along many dimensions as for the other statement i think it's totally silly i mean there's no one cruel goal there at one point in the bush administration they considered having a position in central asia including afghanistan but that was given up a long time ago this is the clear position now of the president on down as it were in afghanistan to prevent al qaeda from rising up again and attacking us for that we need a more or less stable afghanistan government with the goal of democratizing afghanistan has long since been given up and it is a corrupt government there are more corrupt governments in the world fact it's a corrupt government on our side and the good triple trying to overthrow the taliban are even more corrupt even more vicious and brutal so i think that i disagree with with with that if i can if i don't go back to jacobson
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a little bit later in the program but i see and is limited i mean. coming out of washington right now how is that going down with the average pakistani because from what i understand anti-americanism is extremely high in pakistan because of america's war on terror. well there are two pinions in that i mean my personal opinion is that. go and ask an american diplomat if there is been a reduction in the queues or in the visa applications of pakistanis going to the u.s. and the answer probably will be no. i mean there is that disconnect there is a lot of media hype people are reacting to the information with which they are being fed and that information is that us is doing something which is completely detrimental to pakistani interests. and now some of that is genuine as well i mean there is that complete disconnect and i would say that it's
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a very very very typical you know kind of juncture was the end of pakistani u.s. alignment i mean the pattern has always been that there is a crises good brings the two nations together there is a lot of music and dancing in the air and there is thrity to convergence and tactical divergence and as we move on at the end of eight or nine years or at the end of a decade there is back to. you know convergence and there is strategic divergence and that is where we are at the moment ok that is the gasoline that is another very limited in the premier that doesn't bode very well i'm going to take out here it looks like i mean from an outsider looking in the u.s. with its drone attacks in the in its criticism of the pakistani government which is the real tragedy huge a mindset in the eyes of its own people and certainly not making it unstable but at the same time it gets criticized chastised for not doing more on the war and care and we could have it both ways. well though there's obviously some some severe
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hypocrisy here i mean let's keep in mind that they had konnie are being entirely consistent when when that was the soviet union the soviet empire doing the occupying of afghanistan the u.s. was funneling money into pakistan funneling money into the hit conny supporting people like osama bin laden who are all trying to end the foreign occupation of this country and now it's the u.s. government that's doing the occupying the tables are turned but the economy and those people in pakistan and afghanistan that are trying to rid this country of foreign occupation are operating entirely consistently it's a us empire that saying hey now that we're in the occupiers instead of the suv union we want you to start killing your own people we want you to start destabilizing things it's the hypocrisy right here in washington what do you think about that stephen because every pakistani government really put in a type position here because it's its own people being killed by american drones as america goes over the the sovereign border of pakistan on
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a daily basis go ahead. in the long run i am sure is correct because i think what could happen is one of several possible futures is that because american and pakistani interests are so different you know is going to stand with regard to support for these terrorist groups we could see a move of american policy from alliance with pakistan which is a nominal ions and some wanted some which both sides lie to each other it's like a very bad marriage where both sides were unfaithful to the other two containment we could see america moving towards a containment containing block of stone but i don't think that's going to happen i think it's most popular studies understand they need america back and relationships like it as we culturally politically and of course america needs a stable pakistan in fact one of the reasons congress passed the bill was to provide a huge amount of conventional assistance economic assistance pakistan as was the charge of imperial ambitions it's fantasy i mean i haven't heard that since i was teaching undergraduates in the seventy's and universe of illinois there's no
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imperial ambition there are we trying to get out we try to punish the people who attack the united states we've done some most of that and there's a lot of argument for getting out very quickly certainly obama and much of the right ministry of the republicans want to get out about that it's not very quickly jake if you want to jump in there. stephen the government's been killing people for more than ten years how many terrorists do you have to kill before you finally say enough's enough i mean the government there been no constraints on the number of people that have been able to be killed ten years of this no constraints drone attacks assassinations bombings killing of wedding parties at some point isn't it time to say anough enough look at the price you're willing to pay for this occupation and now jeopardizing the relationships with a longtime ally of the united. states praed the president announce a major troop withdrawal and congress agrees with even the right wing americans or the republican party want to get out of afghanistan the facts are quite different when you say jacob because the picture is that we do want to get out of afghanistan
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but we're. afraid that if we when we do get out of afghanistan there's going to you never know the civil war the afghans have signed a security green with the indians this is going to lead to another another potential civil war between the north and the south in afghanistan that's most often syria that it's worse than the american occupation most afghans welcome the american presence there they don't like it and they certainly don't want to taliban presence and they don't want another civil war so i think that's the dilemma we're all politics is tragic because of bad things wind up in politics there's no good choices there's only bad and worst choice all right so somebody shows up here we break even after that short break we'll continue our discussion on pakistan state party.
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if you say. welcome back to cross talk about command you were talking about us pakistan relations. and if you see. a sure thing go to your considering the conversation we heard between jacob and stephen before we went to the break it sounds like an end all exaggerate a little bit just for discussion's sake here is that the u.s. has to actually destroy pakistan to win in afghanistan. well i don't think i mean it back. superficially looks like that go to the notice to not
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only destroy it maybe even invaded it one point ok because we change seems to be a popular flavor of this year go ahead i don't think that there is a whole day that they should do it all hype i said i wanted it for exact even used a word for exaggeration exaggeration for a conversation think it was go ahead i said here it is i'm going to exaggeration and misrepresented my misrepresentation i should go right ahead. i don't think that you know us can despite what it wants despite the divergence i don't think that that should be on the cards that ought to be in the cards or it is on the cards it would be far too risky a strategy for you know for the u.s. to you know try to come in or tried to do you know another may second kind of an operation unto it has actionable intelligence with a mate second we have to be very clear that they had actual actionable intelligence
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as the daughter of the same there is definitely what is happening in pakistan is that there is a public opinion which is building up either generally or is been primed to go that way which does not kind of permit for your boots and american boots on the ground and in case that happens that is going to be very destabilizing and extremely annoying for the pakistani state and society which then in turn it's not going to be. for the peace project in the grandstand and pakistan i think ok us will have to think carefully stephen rangoli you really really i wouldn't ask here both of you because it's really a part of the future of afghanistan what kind of state it will be will kind of alliances will have a kind of friends it will have that's what's really at stake here is not afghanistan in and of itself it's how it's going to interact with the neighborhood and it's pakistan that is very interesting if i go to stephen first on my go ahead
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steve. i just agree with that a number of other people in washington for argue that it's really and should be should be. a caucus that is far more important and for more critical country to american interest than afghanistan afghanistan as a week for a tribal society which everybody contributed in destroying both the americans the russians the off the other part of the pakistanis and others it's not it's you know it's been a fiction more than anything else but pakistan is a very dangerous state and i'd like a streak of what he would do should there be an attack on the united states that was launched from pakistan whether or not the pakistani government do but we had one attack like that in new york the times square bombing they didn't go in there been other jets organized from pakistan against united states what would he do to respond to that would he simply accept the do nothing in response oh that's a danger that america might overreact to attack on the united states launched from pakistan to get lead to a great good because you can hedge against the u.s. which i think would be you know the problem the problem the problem with steven and
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others of his philosophy is they don't go to the root of the problem and the root of the problem is the u.s. imperial. foreign policy that he denies even know anything about you've got it you've got an empire here with seven hundred to one thousand military bases all over the world its primary goal is regime change we've seen that in libya a country that never attacked the united states we see it in iraq a country that never attacked the united states goes back to iran the regime change under most of the incident airplane cuba. goes on in august what he also fails to recognize is the more people they kill and in afghanistan and now in pakistan people get angry over that and that's why you have this perpetual war on terrorism that's why they would be attacking because of the occupation because of the killing this is what ron paul has pointed out they come over here to kill us stephen because the empire's over there killing them the best thing to do to stop this
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nonsense is you dismantle this imperial machine and you say you look like you want to go right ahead. yeah see the thing is that. you know whatever designs the u.s. has right at the moment you know i think there are things which need to be put in context which is the box on one part sun has to seriously look at non-state actors even if the u.s. leaves or does not leave. i would not agree with the notion that you know part of the or a large part of the non-state actors are that problem is there i mean it has been excessive baited by american presence but it may not have started with the american presence there they're all interconnected there are a lot of threads of terrorism and extremism and violence which are going on in the region which would actually go back to the one nine hundred eighty s. interesting lee
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a lot of people in pakistan as well do not question the war which we shouldn't have thought which is the war of the one nine hundred eighty s. . you know and that is where the problem has begun and ad that is going to continue the way of pakistan handles it is going to you know determine pakistan's future as well as i mean little on a show that's a very good point and i can see even this because you know if we get stepping back in pakistan is i think stream we rational in a very pragmatic because of eventually the americans will revive afghanistan they will leave public opinion doesn't support anymore and victory is illusory ok mr karzai who knows where he's going to go after this it's the pakistanis are waiting and it's their neighborhood pakistan isn't going anywhere so it sees that it has which security challenge on its border and want to see certain outcomes we think about that stephen. i think that's correct the pakistanis are really worried about
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they don't want the americans to leave they want us to stay and the indians want us to stay also because we we represent the force keeping afghanistan from breaking apart into a civil war but we're going to pull out i don't think this is ministration even the republican right one i want to stay there the ground call as opposed to staying in afghanistan i agree with that it's not a war we can win it's not a war we was a war we should have fought better to begin with we wouldn't want it we would have done better we would have left afghanistan with a stable government that opportunity is long since gone so there's no reason to stay in afghanistan it's a little we are now the purpose of staying in afghanistan will be to make sure that ok there's no to go to the base there are good facilities there to attack the united states it's a limited go the real goal should be and i think it is in fact the system has been becoming a stable country because a fragmented caucus now would be a catastrophe for india or china or for afghanistan for a whole region for the whole region and i think especially with one hundred plus nuclear weapons that's a strategic goal for us and so they should we think about that because again i
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repeat my point in the pakistanis are rational actors here they have to be concerned what's going on on their border and they know the americans are going to leave they have no stomach state for this go ahead you have absolutely no you know i would imagine jake afraid it's going to take a look there's an accused terrorist here in the united states luis posada kind of the less who is accused of downing the cuban airliner over venezuelan skies the u.s. is harboring him they won't extradite him to venezuela how would we feel even as well all of a sudden start standing drones bombers assassins and started taking out americans that happen to be near by this guy i mean the pakistanis are acting totally rationally here you've got a foreign occupier it's been there for more than ten years and we don't know when it's going to leave it's killing people in afghanistan it's now killing people in pakistan and it's calling on the pakistani government to kill its own people why are they not acting rationally to be concerned. so you don't support you would
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support pakistani terrorist attack against the united states because that would be you and shit retaliation you would have supported the time it was a war that the it was you know i would support it no i would support the immediate evacuation instead of this nonsense that your polling about some indefinite time in the future after the election to get now don't kill one more person steven don't don't kill one more wedding party don't don't do one more drone assassination poll the troops out home you're not doing them any favors by keeping them there all right i want to change gears are going on changing honestly in pakistan. you know right now and talk to them make a difference about this well i think that making a difference does make a difference of the polls will support it already i want to do it i want to change years of living here to be my last show and islam about how much of this is a game of bluffing on both sides when you hear comments coming out of islam bad you had a moment coming out with his you know and they're both they're both going to decrease how much is each side bluffing because it's
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a dangerous embrace but it's an embrace nonetheless. you know there is there is you know quite of course an extent of that of bluffing is well prepared we get back to in answering your question let me get back to a couple of points that were raised i mean there's a very interesting point by steve here that people in park sound want to stay there now when you go out of the streets the common sentiment which has been built up over months now is that pakistani average you know common man on the street once the u.s. leaves now it's the pakistani establishment even military stablish one which keeps telling the american military establishment we think that the problem is that you will dump costs and leave the us with this problem. now that is not translated and called to the man on the street in fact the reality is that after may second after you know there was some dipping nosediving of the relations between the two
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establishments and then it has been a little more steady you know steadily getting better this is not cold looking full there is a game and there is not just one game the games within games that are being played now the other point where was being raised about drone attacks i think it's again a very confusing and complex subject because right now of the if you if you talk to people not people in the planes not people who are far removed from the tribal areas but if you talk to certain segments of the population there this is a they are the only pressure on the taliban is from drone attacks so what reality is i suppose we should jump in here almost out of time here stephen i'd like to give you the last word on this program we receive our u.s. pakistan relationship going got twenty seconds. well i think it's i think it's headed toward some kind of crisis but we it's been in crisis for the past fifteen years so this could be nothing new that i think what would trigger
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a real break would be a serious american attack on a pakistani facility there was an atrocity unlike most of those which was actually supported or a pakistani launched attack on the united states but barring that i think we're going to bump along in a very unhappy marriage which needs to be reckoned reconciled in a major way i hope. diplomacy works kicking the can down the road many thanks to my guest today in washington. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. remember . to. say. could you take three. three. three three. three
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