tv The Big Picture With Thom Hartmann RT April 24, 2013 11:00pm-12:00am EDT
welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle terrorism a word we hear all of the time but what do we mean when we use it is terrorism a specific form of criminality practiced under certain circumstances focused on a specific group of people when we consider weapons is there much that separates handmade bombs and high tech drones ultimately it would appear the only difference between justice and terrorism is whose side you're on.
to crosstalk terrorism i'm joined by my guest in washington william blum he is an author of books on you foreign policy and an internet newsletter called anti empire report we also have max abrams he is a terrorist expert and a fellow johns hopkins university and finally we crossed for him eunice he is a clinical associate professor at the university of maryland and founder of american dot com all right john cross talk rose in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want for what is let's go to you first why is boston called terrorism but aurora sandy hook tucson and columbine not. that's a great question peter and let me start by saying that as a member of one of the a muslim community muslims who believe in the messiah mizzle lama. we were the first muslim american organizations to make it very clear that there is no concept of holy war in islam that there is no such thing as jihad against the infidel where you take a sword and try to convert the word now why is that important because the word
islamic terrorism to me is an oxymoron i'm coming to exactly what you're asking me but the point is these differences will already exist that all of this will exist in the muslim community in america today in fact is asking that same very question that why are some things labeled terrorism worse is another which is not but more importantly the discussion that is going on in the dinner tables on the dinner tables these days among muslim families is that why is it that always a non muslim when somebody goes to sandy hook that they're all it is insane but when a muslim commits an act of terrorism that all is perfectly fine psychologically lax what do you think about the label terrorism go ahead ken i hop in chair yeah i mean i can't i completely disagree the definition of terrorism that we adhere to certainly in north america is three forward first it should involve a non-state actor that is an individual or
a group secondly the targeting the violence should be directed against civilians some kind of a civilian target and third third should be some kind of a political aim and it's so that last point that last part of the definition which separates the boston attack from the other ones which you just mentioned the other ones which you mentioned didn't have any kind of a political motive and so by definition we do not regard. terrorism whereas in the boston case the brother who lived says that the motive was indeed political it was religious it was islam now i'm not saying to you do we really know do we really know that a fact do we really know that we destroy do we really know that it was political we really know that do we do we trust that's what the perpetrators themselves say
ok one is dead in one can't talk william jump in. yes i would assume it was political the older brother who who's who's dead he's made statements make it very clear that he has a great beef american foreign policy as one example so i knew right away it was political and that's what it is. it can be called terrorism for him to head once again and that is why that is why peter i keep repeating this it's very important that we don't look at millions of americans who are muslim in america as suspects and that is why it's very important i agree with macin in principle this week your community hasn't come out it's been known it's very clearly on muslims williams go ahead go ahead will i mean you know what it was william go ahead
jump in no no i agree but that is the feeling that's where this is the need to that's where it's going now not in a million muslims in america ok maxine stress non-state actor is why why is that so important to you. well just because i'm speaking from from north america and so for us when we talk about terrorism that's what we're typically talking about i understand that that's not the case for example if you go to the middle east and you're you want to research terrorism they may well think that you're talking about government attacks against civilians academics though tend to separate. we use a different definition when non-state actors attack civilians versus when stayed out later very you think it's very. very it isn't it it's very convenient well it's certainly if you search because you know it's convenient for a guy who intersection it's convenient for you know me i think like units can feel
convenient for governments for him what do you think about that exactly and i think if you look around you can find over one hundred different definitions of the word terrorism and there is a reason why we can never agree on any one definition peter the reason is that it's a derogatory term it's a horrible label that nobody wants to accept so therefore it's very common to find a war of each side as labeling the other as a terrorist but here is a solution i think instead of getting boxed into that term as a member of the muslim community once again i would like to go to the deeper principle which is the principle of center of human life and that is where our faith teaches us and as the muslim youth leader that's what i've taught all the youths in america that i've interacted with that islam our faith teaches us that whosoever took one it's as if he took the life of all mankind and whosoever gave one life to someone it's as if they give life to mankind so i think the principle
that we can agree with is the sanctity of human life what map you think is in that truth well listen. this if we have a good term to come to that you know it can i can i just interrupt go ahead max jump in i want i want i just want to at. i want to add one thing when i say that terrorism by most accounts in north america focuses on non-state actors that doesn't mean that when states use violence against civilians it's somehow ok the thing is that we have a very rich vocabulary we can use many different words terrorism is not the only negative word to apply to actors in the international system. i don't want to give . you know i don't want to in any way exonerate seeds from attacking civilians indeed when states attack civilians they tend to kill many many more of them then when non-state actors do but that's terrorism isn't it max
it depends i suppose on which country you're in william. we use a much more restrictive definition. i think is the definition definition you gave before it is for terrorism i think is quite suitable there has to be a political motive involved and usually there is where that where the state actor or the government. or when individuals there was nobody in the case of boston i think it was political and so we can call it terrorism when the us uses a drone to kill people in pakistan or afghanistan the motive is political so that's terrorism could be called terrorism by him jump in yeah i know and i hear jump in unless you want a very important visit this is a very important point peter because if you just listen to tom brokaw last week on
meet the press he made the exact same point the amount of resentment these drone attacks are creating there causing there was this young pakistani man who stepped up to tom and he said that i love america but if you horan one here on the head of my sister that i will fight you forever i think that's the important piece that we have to understand here in america that by killing these civilians that we very conveniently sometimes call collateral damage we are creating a whole generation of terrorists if that's the term people like to use max go ahead . i cannot cannot i really i strongly disagree that the drone campaign is terrorism not only is it a state actor as opposed to a non-state actor but the intended target is not civilian the intended target is you know is militants and so you're right mistakes are sometimes made and sort of killed that is a private matter terrible but that's not that's not by design that's accidental and
so that makes it very different you know or as i know which is the intentional wrong marketing of civilians william go ahead you know no it's right listen that that's probably that's propaganda if you go if you send out a drone on monday to kill somebody and it kills a bunch of people who are not your target and you say i get you did you apologize and on tuesday you send out a drone again and again and kills a bunch of civilians and you apologize on the wednesday the same thing happens at what point do you lose the right to use that excuse you cannot use that excuse for ever and ever if you keep killing innocent civilians you must you must face the jury at some time for him. and peter peter once again here is a prediction i think we're never going to agree on a definition of the word terrorism i sort of agree with mack on this point i was
not calling drone attacks terrorism i'm not equating the two but i think once again let's include think of it from the lens of faith let me think of it from the lens of my fate of the muslim community we believe that it's the principle of absolute justice that the world is craving for today those principles we can agree on so when innocent lives are lost anywhere around the world whether that's israel palestine iraq iran pakistan or afghanistan we need to stand up and say this was unfair this was unjust and i think when we say that that's a healing message that's what's going to bring people together the word terrorism is a divisive message and i think it will continue to divide us and again my prediction is we will never agree on a definition or a gentleman i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on terrorism state start.
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with max kaiser there are no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kaiser report on r.t. . here's mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call a dollar. i'm sorry i missed the guy who cares and. uses our. you know what that is my self that i want us to defeat terrorism they are liberal and the christian religions can you believe that it's. good for you to distract us from what you and i should care about because they're profit driven industry that's all the sensationalistic garbage because that breaking news i'm having martin and we're going to break that.
ok william and i go back to you before the break you want to jump in go right ahead yes what are your just keeps mentioning his religion i don't think one has to be religious to have a. life and i don't. the only person maybe only a muslim can have such a high regard for the sanctity of life i wish he would stop saying that you want to reply to that surely and again i think i respect whatever belief you have please don't be offended that's not my intent i want to make sure that that's what my belief is that's that's what drives me in life i'm not a politician what drives me in life are those core principles and let's call them secular principles let's not even call them religious principles but my idea is not to claim superiority here my idea is really to come across with
a healing principle i think you would agree with that let's agree with sanctity of life forget about religion i agree with you that let's not give it give the color of religion. max obama said anytime bombs are used to target innocent civilians it's an act of care. when you think about that. this is this is what the president said yes that's right you know obama yes that's a quote i don't think that i don't think that he was talking about by states i think that he was talking about i did not ask you know what you think of the statement i'm just asking you what you think of the statement that's all you know sure so the fact i think what he was thinking is that because it wasn't just one bomb but it was more ball that showed at that early point that it was intentional and that it was directed against civilians and dos it was terror i think it was just one example that i would like to know of not only that's like fallujah.
on which side by which william jump in yes at the u.s. use of multiple against multiple civilian targets we have a thousand and one examples of that you can't find any definition of terrorism which would exclude american foreign policy it's full of terrorism and has been for decades and decades. ok max you wouldn't want to reply that i mean i don't want to be too repetitive but i mean what the expert just said before me that you can find no definitions of terrorism which would exclude us foreign policy is absurd indeed the conventional explanation in north america would in why do you could say no one except i was a terrorism affected all the whole world right but words have different meanings in different regions and in north america terrorism denotes non-state actors that's not true of other regions in the world ok william. i live in
north america and i don't x. clue do state actors i think the definition which was mentioned earlier which is the same one used by the un and the f.b.i. and the cia is the is the use of violence or the threat of violence against civilians for a political purpose that's a very good definition and that implies a part of the world to a state actor as to a an individual and certainly includes almost all of us foreign policy for him your thoughts. peter i'm going to try and you know i think it's about time i disappoint william one more time because the reason i have to bring religion back into the picture is because five six seven million american muslims they're all being looked upon as suspects you know you have to walk into my shoes to understand why that discussion is relevant to us because all of a sudden when the bombing happened in boston i was seeing patients in the hospital
that day and all of a sudden i knew all my god please don't make him a muslim you know we are trying to raise our found here we have to do with american citizens and this is very difficult this is very difficult i understand you're saying what you're saying is totally your time and muslims dragged into a conversation of terrorism because somehow the implication of that religion is is fueling that and once again you will look at the media start reading the newspapers from today on and for the next month they're going to try to find all those links and all those out of context or says from got on so therefore i think it is important that we need to make sure our country in the world should know where we stand on these issues in william do you want to jump in here to actually go in for a second i want to risk ok matt i want to like when respond to that go ahead i think. i absolutely sympathize with the muslim expert who just spoke and i think that is absolutely right that right now the muslim community in the united states
is under the lens they were before but particularly so in light of the bombings and the fact that the presumed perpetrators are muslim. and what i would what i want to stress from here more generally is that terrorism is politically counter productive and so when when people use terrorism to advance they're given political cause it frequently backfires based i mean details are still sketchy about what's going on with with the boston bombing but my understanding at least based on what the perpetrators seem to have. is that it was done in the name of at least their interpretation of islam but in reality terrorism is detrimental to islam and indeed it's detrimental to the causes professed by any terrorist perpetrators william you want to point it out i wish i wish we could stick to the subject the whether the
fact that this is. a very hard time for muslims in america is totally irrelevant that is not the if you were discussing and whether it's terrorism in question is successful or not or counterproductive is not the issue at all again we're talking about terrorism per se and it's what it how it's defined and what or how we can judge us foreign policy and other actors i wish i think gas would stick to that subject i'm not concerned on this program with the muslims feelings are hurt that is not the issue and the question of whether these acts counter productive will productive is also not relevant to their to a discussion ok for him i think it's very interesting is that in america a lot of people look at muslim muslims and islam is so alien and it's the where we get terrorism but the fact of the matter is most people they don't die of terrorism in the world today are muslim well that's exactly true there are more
muslims dying at the hands of these terrorists than non muslims and i think i fully agree with matt that it's counterproductive it is counterproductive to the core message of the faith it is counterproductive it's kind of that it was for american foreign policy as well riis. no question about that i think exactly because by what peter king look at that what peter king is now this has already started he's come out day one and he's saying we need more surveillance of these young muslim men how much more surveillance do you need you know and do you understand the amount of resentment and the amount of conflicted identity and crisis of their minds of these muslim youth are going through that what we're trying to do is trying to help them forge a strong muslim and an american identity we are trying to make sure that the american muslim youth believe that there should be no conflict between their pledge of allegiance to their faith and their pledge of allegiance to the flag of united
states of america that is a daunting task and when people and particularly strong politicians visible people in the media when they come out and make these derogatory statements as if everybody now has to stand in for the act of these two people i think they have no idea the amount of alienation that's creating and how counterproductive that is right here in america when you think about that max i i i absolutely agree it's really a shame that people struggle so much to differentiate between muslims and i think that terrorists like the ones who have bombed boston do a great disservice to the vast majority of muslims and i think that we need people wake but one so you're having on this program to do a better job of educating the american public and beyond william you think this will change american foreign policy go ahead i'm afraid and that is the basic
problem the basic problem the basic problem is american foreign policy we create. and here american terrorists every day of the week and as long as we can we can we create them we're going to we're going to have to suffer the way we do we we must stop invading and bombing and overthrowing governments and torturing people and stopped eating and him american terrorists i say antiemetic terrorist because we can prevent the creation of all terrorists but we can at least stop those who are motivated by anti american feelings against us foreign policy that is the main task at hand for american citizens max just to reply that i really don't think that there are going to be any fundamental changes in u.s. foreign policy. changing asian should it change no no i don't believe that it that it should change i mean the obama administration
when you add it on secretary kerry and secretary hagel these are people who are very reluctant to deploy u.s. forces abroad i don't think that they're going to start any more conflicts or increase me in power i do think that the drone campaign will continue however william you look go ahead go ahead you're speaking of a man you're speaking of a man who has waged war against seven nations and you say he's reluctant to use all forces abroad what world are you living in max so give me the last word go ahead. well i'm sure i'm making a comparative statement in comparison to his predecessor he's relatively gun shy except when it comes to the drone campaign really well you go ahead and go ahead i bet you can do that is that the best you can do max i think those are the facts all right gentlemen we have run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks today my
covered. let me let me i want to know what all let me ask you a question from. here on this network is what we're having a debate we have our knives out. to bring you this right to ban steak never again here in a situation where being i don't agree to talk about theory let me. we are facing a lot of problems. because no one no good schools. no minutes when you feel for. what's not enough wealth is a law in the local needs you want a community l.n.g. most mortgages just released. give debt down for
in a verbal i'm no stranger for example from school if i know but i've been lied to as us i'm too much of a damn fool as i don't one of the troika feels as if if faced so conduct in the field. every cause i want to go undercover in the criminal is only to government. now because they want to kill me. and. there's trouble and i don't are strong. and i'm giving that program. because i said if you give us the rights.
back in the truck or the villagers go about their lives in close proximity to the militants for fun fishermen contemplate the choices young men must make and faced with the challenge of being poor in the niger delta flight dad is a fish and my granddad is official now so i. feel. not sure believed to be is not. so the fish can.
make money. some food does deals make money some. it's only knife but i guess too i can kill all the. there was. a cross and. they called. people from. across the river to members of the local i'm a punk he wandered through a nearby village that is under the protection. of all these people or that would be the kind of drinking. i would i would just keep on this but it is so we'll need i says that from a man yeah i. said i felt i was meant. what's national companies and while
in our community i'm going to community l.n.g. more believe. it and give it to myself i doubt if i don't think. that out that what. i say will fight for our own rights. if need. be i'll fight for self-interest if you don't all want to be self-reliant is when god of already blessed goes on. give us all these oil and gas on all these too though we are supposed to be surviving from ice and you'll see that some day and if it's a good not. one but. how would you and i need to feed up again so that is why we decided no we're going to fight for our rights you see to the bone million i would die for the notion of wouldn't tell myself to fight for
the less prisoners you now does it would start from the asphalt and i believe i would know what on and on about we are close allies i might douse up into years time. well i can. buy them for that was too much of a must see by saying something if you say anything against them you need to add nothing to save you there are so many dead bodies honestly areas that the kids that we have buried out on the side and this is the sole. if you know they had any bad news from you from you know i did this when i landed on the fourth of march saw. a lot of them we don't know don't worry whoever shot the gun i'll break a skull. muster chairman should i decide the gun. right
that it was ten ten that fired the gun punishment is also meted out among the zero call in my pocket after one militant loses control of his weapon and i certainly fires two bullets across the can. i mean. not. that the. one i think ten ten fired off two shots yeah. over there he could have killed somebody my god you're. just trying to open the chamber and gave somebody the good. hide your face or i'll slap your wife was she shot then you know that. i'm on the if you. do that man twenty give the other ten each some friends and lessons you must learn. life was. not like that let me.
know there was. was. was. rumors reached the village of the execution of two on armed fisherman and the government base in nearby bani. there accused of being militant informing us. a video of the incident later emerges. in neighboring delta state civilians flee as helicopter gunships attack rebel camps and villages where militants were entrenched . video surfaces of their flight. the aftermath. of the military occupation and the villagers displaced from their homes. with militants in their own midst and happened to be darker it grew fearful that
they too may come under attack father. nothing is too afraid to do this problem that is coming fatah we are if you are in homs. should be an offline pull it out for us also in jesus' name this way that is going that they're going by hey i don't i want to fight we need to protect the part i just miss in jesus' name god all we ask from you so out of this report that doesn't make peace in the house fatah led job the peace in jesus and him in result. in mind i saw him. i told my people that is problem. i saw people in this village can delegates. into jobs.
today i know you'll see everybody in this village has packed the things about. ten minutes sent us a message that everybody should meet this place they sent it through one of our elders. meets a proposal on maybe doing nothing all of these people for shy men that this was. very much afraid of. when. you don't know what will happen. however now you see i'm on the way i like. to you that he sees the sadness. as the villagers depart for me john kerry they are calling my pongee going recognizance mission contemplating a possible attack on the shells liquid natural gas plant and the security forces on body island oh yeah he's going to me that he was. doing my thing. because i want to get. it out of. my body to get it.
if they don't stop it's well going to do is do ducks audit of all disgusted to be honest minimal. and i know i don't know i know who. i do better by now i'm not well i do whatever. i want and then i got done regard that. i overheard lulu years there's the others are there is it that far down the. road. you guys are not are going to. find our logo or out of there are loaded out of her honor they're not allowed on. the take as militants settle in for another night waiting for the situation to change equally ready to rise again and fight or quietly return to ordinary life
but i've begun to wonder whether most of the guys were really here to fight for a noble cause the villagers had lost faith in them it seemed the choices that led them to join were borne out of social economic conditions that offer them no good education broken families and virtually no opportunities to earn an honest living and many after a long exile in the wilderness dream of returning home. anytime somebody else. if you like it with luck welcome on the morning. yeah yeah we turn forty three don't hold that's not the time and that is. to be those nights. admission and free
credit take should free in-store charges free. range means free risk free studio time free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects a free media. tom. wealthy british stock. market. can. find out what's really happening in the global economy. for a no holds barred the global financial headlines two kinds of reports. here
is mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call a dog and i'm sorry i'm just a guy who cares an awful lot about my country you sir are a fool you know what that is my other terrorist cells in your neighborhood all want to keep us safe to feature is not the only ball and the christian religion. can secure beliefs of others but. you know the corporate media distracts us from what you and i should care about because they're a profit driven industry that sells a sensationalistic garbage he calls it breaking news i'm happy martin and we're going to break this that it's.
a potentially deadly blizzard taking aim for the northeast it's expected to hit stunning in a few hours from new york to maine we have team coverage of the storm. but what we're watching is the very heavy snow moving into boston proper earlier today it was very sticky you can see it start to become much more powdery down here the bottom line there's still a lot of snow out here a good place for snowball fight. jason it is going to pretty incredible day there and even record snowfall throughout what's been like nobody's luxury drugger listen submergence three here who are exceptions. where from. all i said was and we're going to take
a calls together leaders and representatives of other militant groups and river state delegation just returned from a buddha or report to attack and in negotiations with a government regarding the terms of a hearse damnedest to insecticides go like you did. then and you see i would have to say for instance wait a minute where for instance we told them that i first laid on this oil belongs to us so we must be empowered it is our own oil but the houses the our room was there and the ibos used to empower themselves now in the meanwhile we are the ones giving the bad names and you kill us every day in the name of our own oil rights. it is good it fast fast the minister of the defense minister on press conference and just on just in time you an interview on the second bill clinton was made into the african istep for. last resort and.
suggestions that with the cause for war that we did eventually. i want to walk. we can now speak in one way any time that we can all speak in one form so more women bow again that i've had my back again i don't know now why but i believe so what you came for is good i've heard the whole report from you have elaborated on many issues let's composer cells and properly so now is this thing that started and let's handle it well and see what the outcome will be that's my advice as the meeting adjourns it is clear that in nigeria's capital discussions are underway that may determine the fate of all the niger delta militants.
i move enough if congress passes fees on the launch a least close my eyes i'm nervous the difference in the knees. up reason ultimately if. i pray to him it may be that i did one t.v. and there's another problem was when i not know what answer was not by telling to the present. i am trying to continue the job business he's doing a lot on the god will bless him was. a. past.
i'm a person that's always in the hands of god when i prayed to god very while ago it would seem as if they take goto way nothing exists. but chambers permission i show his mother some video clips of him in the camp without revealing details of the life in which he is engaged. or going to she's the one that's been asked to do you have fifteen delegates i would most want to know about people. i don't want to so much too much pressure on me what does is songs that are used to seeing clearly and. there's a song again saying i don't. look good it. isn't. life. is no good you and there is no good out till what. and as amanda used to take an awful nice woman that used to take care of us very well i love her so much.
it's so easy. for you. i thought i had not seen him. no no she doesn't know i'm here so you think you know the time i answered this police station she heard about it and she heard the police station burned down and i was still inside when it happened. says that so since that time for a few years now i haven't seen her i mind she must think i'm dead if you tell him to come back let me see him you're here please. the president of nigeria mara muesli are doing makes a statement there were directly impact. you know ground. to. ice is.
what do you say. you hear what i'm saying. for. and then i'll just tell about one of a little she has come back and i lied in that he says he is praying to me that god should bless me i think i am a he says he will come back. in latin they really want to see my brother. i went to see. the militants remain in camp while their leaders negotiate the terms of their surrender. leave me you know that's. fair fight i called my savior most school for
a friend but how can this man fly. in business i get into this you know small slow spongy friend say in the video if indeed his deeds understand friends who seek. me to meet this is schools mini prisons. good friend. of mine to. write down my blood i can do business. in the same city that i. was i have to look to being. cut cut cut cut cut. cut cut. cut cut. cut cut cut. cut. cut cut. cut i
feel. the last prominence militants in nigeria has given up his weapons offer agreeing to an amnesty deal with the government it comes all to give is a rebel led attacks on nigeria's oil industry damaging his economy and costing the country billions in lost revenue now the government has offered cash and jobs for thousands of finances in return the peace that will last i am ready welcoming paltalk holt one of nigeria's most notorious rebel commanders a t.k. tome a money challenge of two thousand fighters about to lay down his arms in exchange for cash and education. i last post for the cameras and then the serious business of hunting over his few just to give.
the villagers from the talk to return to their homes damaged to brought a period of relative calm to the niger delta they wouldn't last. time paulo boileau father go attack a time and a host of other military bosses took the president's deal and lay down their weapons but the root causes of the conflict were never addressed there are still no good roads no good schools and no good hospitals the oil still lives there well companies get richer the west and she boil while the environment is further cleared . today the diligence need john kerry continues to parks in the oily waters of the niger delta.
financial institutions accused of demanding concert but also bring few visible solutions to. the u.s. again increases the number of detainees it made on hunger strike could go on tonto as that fishel figure edges closer to that claimed by lewis since the beginning. and through to its trade the russian president holds his annual q. and a with the nation they call me on social issues are the top of a long list of questions people want.