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tv   World Apart with Oxana Boyko  RT  August 25, 2013 10:29pm-11:01pm EDT

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ability to think that they're wrong no i think they should so i think they should shouldn't sound any less extreme than they are because it was it doesn't happen that you don't have zero hours and you can sort of expect that at some point you may do polyploid artsy london. coming up after the break it's worlds apart when host oxana point. choose your language. make you know if you. feel some of.
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the concerns you can. choose the opinions that you think are great. choose the stories that in your life choose access to often. hello and welcome to worlds apart this year in the united states mark the second a new birth to reading the world of asama bin laden so far the main and fairly rare victory in america's declared war on terror but after more than a decade of fighting and trillions of dollars spam is the united states and good woman tantaros safer than they used to be to discuss that i'm now joined by abdel
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bari atwan the editor in chief of the pan arab newspaper. mr atwan thank you very much for your time now just recently u.s. president barack obama gave a speech on america's war on terror and what i think went unnoticed by mainstream media is a bomb his efforts to redefine the nature of that war let's listen what he had to say as most of our effort not as a biome lish global war on terror. but rather as a series of persistent targeted efforts to dismantle specific networks of violent extremists the threaten america. so essentially what he's saying here is that america can no longer afford this global engagement but of course the irony is that when his predecessor george w. bush launched that global war on terror al-qaeda presence was very much localized various nowadays when obama tries to scale it down it is far more than fused it is
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far more global indeed i actually obama is not actually seeing the truth about the . after years of the war against terror. is no. time before we used to have one. before eleventh of september which is of. no we have. so obama when he says that there was we can. believe he is misleading here i think you can also argue that the trajectory of al qaida and its prather around the world the spread of and influence is actually following the trail of american interventions but before we go there i would like
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to talk about what they actually mean by terrorism because obviously there is no universally agreed definition of terrorism but what is usually manned by a by this war it is the use of violence or political means and what's crucial here i guess is the the use of files by known state actors because we all are very well aware of examples when states uses violence for political means and in this case you would of course call it liberation humanitarian intervention or indeed the global war on terror well actually. if we want to go back to the tenement ology or before the american intervention in of ghana we never heard this actually expression terrorism as it is used now so the american intervention in afghanistan encouraged. the girls to set their bases from their start to hear. american made a grave mistake when the invaded iraq tried to dismantle this country and rebuild
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it according to the american definition of a state because of this actually became a very strong managed to in homes it is position in several parts of the arab words and several parts of the middle east so obama when he talks about the global war against terrorism i believe he has policies that american foreign policy is in that region was that great that accrue to. be managed to track that many people many islamic fundamentalists to join al qaeda that aren't specially in iraq and to fire the american and also before that in afghanistan to fire the american occupation so the american new pieces of middle eastern countries there this more to dismantle to change actually lead to the handover al qaeda absolutely i think it could be used as a very successful of equipment but what i think is important to stress here as well
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is that we usually make a distinction between state and non-state violence for political and i think it is really wrong because there is nothing inherently more evil about sounding huge advantage of world trade center than for example sandy hundreds of jabs to bomb baghdad i mean it's still violence in the case of state wildlife the death toll is much higher yes there are i believe the vision in iraq is a kind of terrorism simply because it was based on lies and when the american killed around them. million people there we have about four million all friends because of this intervention this is also a terrorism to invade other people country to bomb but that we have seen i think this is this is what is then al qaeda so we cannot we cannot compare what the american did in the at arc of the american actually do they were invaders definitely and occupiers and so people in title to fight the occupation to try to
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kick out the foreign troops from. so obama when he talks about terrorism he never refer to a state terrorism which is more dangerous more lethal than any other since we are talking about al qaeda and its ideology when a group is labeled terrorist you're not supposed to. think about what our claims really are i mean it's essentially allophones die entire ideology and i think neither you or nor me we want to solid up logic for terrorists obviously the means that they choose to fight for that political causes are known definable but. if we look at the. ideology that is behind there some of some part of that ideology may be perfectly legitimate and i want to talk about al qaeda specifically you were one of the very few journalists who had a chance to interview
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a solemn bin laden in person what kind of impression did he make on you did he sound reasonable to you actually when i met my beloved in. november nineteen ninety six his name was actually or his ideology which based on. bickel interpretation over his major points of his ideology to kick the american american troops out of saudi arabia he did not talk actually more than that but afterward he stopped to see that you know his ideology is to fly to the jews and then later the. second in command joined al qaida and he becomes very. strong. ideological theorist and. he said i should aim for. to revive the islamic caliphate all
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over the muslim world so you know this kind of ideology was. wasn't fixed from that day one of those summer below the launching a car that but the gradually it's still the finally which is to revive. a muslim caliphate to establish states most of the. country is almost of the muslim countries not if not all of them so when we talk about ideology it is different it is not actually as it used to be so that's when i think it's important to keep in mind that this resistance to american military imperialism the american intervention is still. a core part of the al qaeda ideology and when you look at that from that perspective i mean. it in this sense would have many sympathizers all around it well because there is a growing movement all around the world to resist this freedom off america to
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launch wars wherever they want to know that american are not entitled to launch war whenever they want to actually because you know to go for example i believe it is illegitimate to actually target it is illegitimate it illegitimate war they are intervening here. they cannot actually tell you the genes as they like to find out but it takes for this they cannot go and indeed to do in iraq simply because they don't like their g.m. there they used to lie or when i'm out of this tragedy means that they are allowed to vent and i know that the problem is they exploited the vacuum on the top of the word politics when. saying in that time china was rebuilding its economy to building its politics so they exploited this vacuum in order to invade iraq and also the use the same vacuum nobody is challenging them and so they
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invaded afghanistan and the topple that we are coming to the same point that it is the use of violence for political me. we quoting to president obama the united states no longer wants to do now in this scene speech that i mentioned earlier mr obama talked about. the need to win their hearts and minds of their local populations he said that america can no longer rely on for so long let's listen to what he had to say so the next element of our strategy involves addressing the underlying grievances and conflicts that feed extremists from north africa to salvation essentially what he's saying here that we we have to address these underlying grievances and later on in this speech he said that those underlying grievances include mainly poverty and sick tearing hatred but he of course made no mention of the american military and do you think the americans the white house
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administration can win the hearts and minds of the local populations and address this underlying cause for terrorism without changing its way well actually america is still involved and many countries in the middle east still using military means is still using. afghanistan which killed more than four thousand people until now most of them women and children and they are using the again. many people are killed and one so deceived from. saying that please how can i send a message to the congress saying that i am a texan but i have nothing to do with al qaeda please don't bomb me so that's that's the problem still involved is still using the rules under cannot see he will of obama when he talks about winning the hearts and minds of the people of the middle east or the muslim world i don't believe he will succeed with. if he wants
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to or to win the minds and the hearts of middle eastern people i think you should promote peace a peace between the arabs and. and there is that aids that i had also to promote peace between sunni and shia and the mishaps on that that sounds like a monumental task let's talk about that in the second part of the program after a short break. in cuba is not a failure of the cuban people it's a failure of sidel castro in
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a. sense and they should. do shows both hostility and suspicion encouraged by the government these operations against cuba were known to the attorney general of the united states to present a united states himself the defendant's intelligence arms had to infiltrate to resist. but surely jones freedom fighters terrorists. who is who. the real terrorist are you stand up on our cheek.
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welcome back to worlds of ports where we're discussing america's love hate relationship with terrorist groups with abdel bari atwan the editor in chief of. mr archer when i don't know whether you would agree with me but i think mr obama in the speech that we addressed previously was really trying to take america's war rhetoric to a new level in a sense that he really tried to have it both ways and to combine the incompatible let's listen to what he had to say on the legality of america's war on terror. america's actions are legal we were attacked on nine eleven within a week congress overwhelmingly authorized the use of force. under domestic law
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and international law the united states is at war with al qaeda the taliban and their associated force now this is barack obama speaking more like george w. bush and i think it's worth mentioning that the white house still relies on the military force authorise ation law that was granted to george w. bush just days after nine eleven but at the same time in the same speech. managed to provide a counter argument to his own point let's listen to what he had to say. unless we discipline our thinking our definitions our actions we may be drawn into more wars we don't need to fight. now obviously i think both the current administration and obama in particular had plenty of opportunity to discipline the self-restraint themselves but of course this challenge was missed on both libya and syria as you argued before actually you know when he said we are fighting a legitimate war it is not
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a legitimate war it is illegitimate war simply because other people are killed if we talk about of them kyra that is very weak and of going to send it's not as strong as it used to be when the taleban fighting the american troops there are five foreign invasion there are fighting for and if you pinches but to use that example in order to kill people without any mandate from united nations or from the international law i think this is this is a huge violation of the human laws because these drones are not accurate as the american are seeing it is actually civil times hit with being sometimes innocent people women so we cannot say that these kind of drones or all of the use of these drones in foreign countries is legitimate i believe that american. have nothing to do in afghanistan. they should leave afghanistan the way they lived. and this case
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that nobody will attack them i don't believe the taliban are actually posing any to the american mainland the taliban never said we are going to bomb the new york or to bomb washington or san francisco so i think of that american would like to put an end to the war against terrorism and they should pull out their troops from afghanistan that we did in iraq and leave the middle east alone and you mentioned the air the issue of drones and of course mr obama talked at length about his years of drones and he promised to scale down on had that application but it's not just about drones says senator for example if we take the issue of libya or syria you know drones for years there. the death toll and the. consequences of america's intervention are very dramatic and more specifically on syria what do you think was america's role do you think a bomb a was to quick or to slow to intervene when i'm out and syria it is different
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situation he doesn't need to use drones until now but it is a war by a broker we are witnessing a war between saudi arabia the ally of america and american ministration. we are witnessing the lies of iran are involved in this war so there is a war between the two sides that american. vies of this war in a way or another they want to topple the seed of the. long term ago obama obama said several times that these of prison of syria are numbered so i believe that america intervening directly on syria until now but i wouldn't be surprised if they actually. send their own brawlers or their own warplanes or encourage israeli to intervene we don't know. but. this is where you could have
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a bunch of that you mentioned it's still quite significant because when you an ounce your support for one warring party fairly early in the conflict you change the balance of power and you give gore had to your allies in the region to provide weapons so i think i would take an issue with your claim that america is intervening directly because we know that america's role in america stance in the syrian conflict is quite significant and i would have been argue that it is the main reason why the death toll in syria has been so high yes it is you know it is so high simply because america. look at the middle east through the arms of those that are really the one to be the only superpower with nuclear weapons and part of the words so they managed to dismantle. the menage actually to to weaken the syrian army in order to be the only strong power in that part of the
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world so the american wouldn't like anybody to put it to the israelis that's the case the members to intervene in libya topple the. lead of the same thing they are doing the same in the. they're out of. syria but this is a very very interesting point mr ass one that they have one that makes sure that israelis is the dominant power in the region and that israelis interest and all threaten but of course it's still an open question of whether the idea that the americans tend to support it in syria will know i think it's cracked and the israeli security in their minds bigger way than the government of bashar al assad and here i want to go to the book that you authored several years ago the secret history of al qaeda and reach you described a not so. the secret history of the americas involvement the cia involvement with
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al qaida and the provision of both monetary and military aid to al qaeda and i think this is not an isolated example this is quite a frequent american tactic of supporting the groups that they will have to fight later on do you think this is something that we are also witnessing in syria and to some extent that we witnessed in libya well actually. no is well established in syria and i believe the american would like to create a weakening groups inside syria. and all the. other from from syria you will know i believe there is number one enemy or united states in syria and i wouldn't be surprised if they managed to topple the regime in syria which is that they will go after al qaeda. that we tried to do in. two thousand and six and. they didn't succeed as well my question is this flirting
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with violence thinking that you can make violence work in your favor but only then realizing that the present here after pe and you know that america's war on terror was worth trillions of dollars these prizes much higher than any gains what do you think would be prize for americans and the west in general to realize that this noting that violence is actually extremely counterproductive to all national interests well actually the american. making a lot of mistakes in the middle east and it's not the first time it's not surprising i believe that america. american miscalculated in iraq and they miscalculated believe we're definitely there are miscalculating in syria because you know whenever there or there are large intervene in any of the middle eastern countries the created or the create. there is a state this is the best place for for actually article organization to establish
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bases so that what happened exactly what happened in afghanistan could happen in syria so i believe the american will feel problems to try to. defeat al qaeda in syria because al qaeda is very strong and it is good things to stronger and i believe this war in syria would and. many people anticipated that it will take three four six months. so that it will be over and will be toppled but until now it was actually hearing that. given the history that you just mentioned of america's intervention in the arab countries now you are one of the most influential commentators on arab affairs and as you just pointed out your region often was on the receiving end of america's policies yet every time when there is the possibility for a new humanitarian intervention it seems that arabs tend to forget about all that
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destructive history that americans had in their region i cannot think about any single successful american intervention when it would actually improve the lives of the people on the ground in arab countries but yet both in libya and in syria when i was covering the conflict i found a lot of people there who genuinely believe that these time around american involvement would be to that benefit yes you have the problem is a lot of criticize from the libyan when i said. the bases in libya it will be a dominant figure and that part of the words yes many people i was against the american intervention in iraq i was against the american intervention in afghanistan that we. so i was really criticize that i said to the. criticize you loved me when i could size the american invasion of iraq you loved me when i was very critical of the america. destruction of afghanistan so why now when i use the
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same principle you'll you'll you'll hate it when you know when is the answer why did i have to have such a short memory because the propaganda you know that i have public opinion was actually bombarded by a propaganda saying that. you know arab spring and the topple of that mirror will change and medicare is supporting this kind of democracy spreading democracy in our part of the word so this kind of propaganda which was well orchestrated influenced many people in the arab world so they are not listening to the wise voices saying that look america they have their own interests they want to dismantle that was they want to create favored state they want to weaken that are so low that it is so and that what happened many people believe that they are after democracy after that human rights how can they be after democracy and human lives for example then never and in palestine and gaza war for example when there is available by the gazan
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there one hundred and fifty square miles seized for four four years and also when the american intervene in iraq they were not looking for human rights when they killed around a million people so it is the problem is people have forgotten because america certain arab media outlets correct our eyes that that is genes and there were. some of them some of them dictators and they never. enters of their people no question about that but the american name is beyond that they have their own agenda that the whole of their own ideology to dismantle that it was so absolutely that the whole of saudi air getting rid of those monsters is sometimes quite monstrous but here we are coming to the last question i would like to ask you and emagine that you have been a a. and critique of. american foreign policy especially in your region and
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i'm sure that whenever you criticize american intervention in libya in syria and iraq people would come back to you and ask something along the lines that so you would be in favor of keeping those monsters of keeping those murderers in power what is your role you know based on what i all of these questions are my my my answer is look. we are going to change them but change them for oh and it's not for the american interests we're going to change them in order to place them with democratic by our choice not by outside choice we are looking for reforms to be a good idea of the forms. we have to be the forms to help the people but without actually losing our major aim to create a strong. democracy and human rights i also get this question often and my answer
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to it is usually it's not about who you support but what you actually support it's about choosing a course of action that is based not on your national parochial interest but rather on whether those actions are more likely to stand or heal the violence but unfortunately this is all they have time for police join us again same place same time here in the worlds apart. but he sees things that something to people notice. these. things. people never do they call him disabled but he's the world's first deaf and
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blind doctor of science. professor and it's other savor of. the great life lived against the odds. well it. was the. pleasure to have you with us here on r t today i'm sure.
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specter's access to the science of. u.s. is blaming the government or russia warns against jumping to conclusions. also this week that may be true whistleblower bradley manning asked barack obama for a presidential pardon off being sentenced to thirty five years behind bars the biggest leak of classified data in america's history plus. we were faced effectively with it ultimatum for the british government that if we didn't hand back the material or destroy it they would move to. the editor of the u.k.'s guardian newspaper reveals how he was pressured to destroy files to receive from n.s.a. whistleblower edward snowden.


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