flic to media reports that we are getting yes was very hard to be sure of what's going on in libya because there are conflicting announcements by the libyan authorities all the time what i understand is that ninety september will be not only the charges as you said of insulting the national flag but also the war crimes charges relating to the nz in two thousand and eleven and perhaps just to explain what that means the there was a visit last year in june last year by an official i.c.c. delegation of the law from the i.c.c. to meet with safe khadafi it was supposed to be a meeting which would be privileged confidential and yet actually was monitored and documents which were privileged were confiscated and so that trial if you like the national security trial is based on on seizing those documents which the libyan should never have seized and in fact the i.c.c. has ordered them to return those documents and so that's one trial which should be happening until then on the nineteenth of september the libyan authorities have announced that he will also stand trial with listen we see another co-defendants on

the main trial if you like the main crimes against humanity trial. but no one knows if that's really true or not whether that's actually expected to happen now i find it interesting that even when you are in the dark given that you're actually representing him i wonder how much communication access you actually have to your client at this point have you even spoken to him i have absolutely no contact with him whatsoever and it's impossible to have any contact with him because the libyans are keeping him in solitary incommunicado detention he said no access in nearly two years to his family to its loved ones to his friends and much less to a lawyer and so i represent him before the international criminal court where we've succeeded in an argument he should be transferred and my position is i wouldn't even try and visit him in libya because it would be not in his interests and would be impossible and in the event and i think it's more than any i mean the previous lawyer that was appointed by the i.c.c. myleene that. you are actually dared to travel to libya to the city of santa ana

where a safe alyssum is now being held she was arrested me that way through her meeting with him and held there for a month so i can certainly understand why when you would be reluctant to travel there for your own safety reasons but i wonder what you can really do for your client from london or from any other location of the you may travel except for libya what i can do with my team before the international criminal court is to is to decision in his favor from the international court saying that the case should be heard by the i.c.c. and should not be held in libya and ordering libya to surrender safety duffy to the hague and that's happened on thirty first of may this year and the appeals chamber of the i.c.c. has also said that even though an appeal is ongoing they still have to deliver him and they have there's no suspense of the facts of the appeal and so they have to deliver him today you can say what we can do what we are doing is it is arguing the

case in detroit the i.c.c. most interviewer will be a show trial where he faces the death penalty i know that you made it clear in some of the previous interviews that you believe that this whole legal quagmire the i.c.c. are requesting the transfer of say full islam and labor refusing to hand him over may actually damage the credibility of the international criminal court and as far as i understand in the interview with time magazine you actually said. that makes the court appear to have less but alternately isn't it what the court really ease in the eyes of the libyan authorities because they couldn't care less about all the i.c.c. warrants and orders they couldn't care less about the un security council resolutions because they know pretty well that regardless of what they do to say full islam and thousands of other print the prisoners who are kept in libya these days there would be absolutely no punishment. the like will is actual course into full chemical.

can't do anything unless it has the support of other states and the danger is of international courts appearing as i say toothless and they appear to us if they issued those orders are ignored now it was the case from yugoslavia at the tribunal for the former yugoslavia that those countries to some of the countries didn't want to cooperate with a phrase they couldn't care less about. but the international community made those countries they made for example. membership was made contingent in some ways dependent on delivering on takeoff of even. to the hague it may well be the case that is the case that india which is a country after all stepping into anarchy every day they say well we don't care about i.c.c. but they do care about economic sanctions they care about not having membership for example in the in the they would if the european parliament said that they were vestment in libya was contingent on delivering safe gadhafi to the hague so they can be made to and that's what the international committee has to do if it believes

in the course it has to support the cause well let's see if the international community as you say western leaders who spearheaded this campaign against gadhafi regime really have the guts to do anything to be a new libyan authorities if say full islam ever sees his day in court whether in libya or at the i.c.c. on those main charges of crimes against humanity war crimes what do you think is the most realistic scenario what do you think is the most likely fade that he can face especially in the current circumstances i think he would agree with me about his his odds of seeing a trial in libya probably higher than at the i.c.c. if he's delivered to the hague to the i.c.c. he may well stand a good chance of being acquitted and being being freed because you can have a fair trial before an international court you can have a trial in the circumstances where there's a. witch hunt on in the country while. i would take an issue of if you were

a search and that you can actually have a fair trial at the i.c.c. i think the i.c.c. credibility at this point of time is pretty tarnished not only by be wholely be in a fair because the i.c.c. played a very destructive very politicized role in this whole a libyan controversy in the lead up to the. ouster of more marget a few but what do you think will be his most realistic fate if he is tried in libya do you think he will be found guilty and if so what kind of punishment do you think you will get it would not be if he would be convicted and would receive the death penalty a new couple of weeks ago a former education minister mr ibrahim was sentenced to death after a very short process in israel and. it's you know if he could easily suffer the same fate. just go back to your point about the i.c.c. and i think one has to distinguish the different organs of the i.c.c. you can talk about the prosecutor. who she chose to indict and whether that's

a political decision alone but when we talk about a fair trial you have about three judges who have been chosen for their independence and impartiality in their expertise and i'm confident that you could have a fair trial before the i.c.c. coming back to you are your assertion about safe chances for fair trial being fairly low i would agree with you on that point but i would disagree with you on him getting capital punishment because ultimately he is the watch off the force in time militia and as long as they can keep him alive they have a very powerful bargaining chip on their hands so. i think what these the most likely what these the most. for him is to be kept in detention indefinitely and that would serve them best i would argue what do you think i think that's certainly what one sees now in a power play between tripoli and this forms the whole background to the i.c.c. case with tripoli oh the authorities there if one can talk about. thorson's because

the set is bad the states code libya anymore but you have the there's an aaa saying that in towns under the control of that he will be transferred from from sometimes tripoli and as you say he's actually a very important bargaining chip hugely price really to this in tony's. so as to what would in fact happen whether if he were what you want to shoot he could be convicted and sentenced to death and maybe the sentence would be carried out it's a grisly prospect which other innocent to speculate about a year and a half ago i was trying to arrange an interview with say for the slum and for that i had to negotiate a lot of top rankings in town commanders and the interview never materialized but they told me on a number of occasions that they have actually nothing against trying safe from islam and it was the so-called central authorities in tripoli who were sabotaging the whole process because of all the potential embarrassing revelations that he can make about some of the members self parliament some of the members of the

government whole used to work with his father by shaved the very convenient moment for them what do you think about bad doesn't your client simply know too much to be allowed to take the stand well as i haven't spoken to him as i would you know but i can i can surmise that certainly you know he would know a great tale about what happened in. gadhafi in libya which could be embarrassing both to libyans and to foreign leaders and what you say about. people having an interest in not giving evidence not speaking freely would also be true and even more true most mature in fact if you would give it to the i.c.c. today because then he could he could speak freely about all those things i doubt whether he'd ever be able to speak very freely about any matters in libya even in a trial i think you'd be under very controlled environment to be under detention where he knows that what he says is can rebound on him negatively. and that's one

the reasons why it's not in my interests not in his interests for us to try and meet in instant time to discuss matters because he knows he will go after them and to tell you it's that you mention that everything he says is monitored everything he says is listened to and so he can't really complain that he can't really spill the beans about anything important as long as he's detained in libya but even if he transferred to the hatred of mr jones even if he's transferred to the hague there is a lot of. potentially compromising information that's contrary about western leaders for example the allegations about his father contributing funds to the. sarkozy's election campaign so how genuine do you seem to be i.c.c. really is and its calls to. transfer get off it to the hague you know how would argue that this is just you know lip service but in fact not many western leaders are truly interested in having him take the stand although i think what he says absolutely true i think the i.c.c. as he said he said we're talking about the i.c.c.

judges who ought to be sent to the hague i think. in wanting him to be he should be transferred but i think what i do find disturbing and this goes back to the matter of an open letter i wrote to the foreign secretary here in the u.k. i'm calling on him to put pressure on this is that many western countries do have an interest in being friends with with. potentially having say khadafi transferred to the i.c.c. at least not if it unites their supporters ok mr jones we have to take a short break now but when we come back britain as you just pointed out was one of the most active members of the anti good alfy call ation predicating its involvement on the need to protect human lives and human rights is it still ask concerned about those issues now that gadhafi sr is gone that's coming up now on all the part.

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on our reporters twitter. and instagram. to be in the know moments on. we speak your language. news programs and documentaries in spanish matters to you breaking news a little too negative angles keaton's stories. you hear. destroy all teach spanish find out more visit. all tito it's comb. welcome back to worlds apart we're discussing the state of justice in more than

daily beer with joan joan said british lawyer representing one market office al the sun say full islam mr jones just before the break here mansion last month he sent an open letter to the british foreign secretary william hague calling on him to quote intervene to condemn li baer for its breach of international law and to call upon it to comply immediately with the r.c.c. order have you received any reply from the foreign office yes i did recently receive a reply but it didn't really didn't answer my question so i had to send a response to that i guess it's hardly surprising given how preoccupied mr hague may be riff yet and the other possible if you manage terror an intervention this time in syria but i think it's worth reminding our viewers just a couple of years ago safe all islam was received very warmly in britain he was hosted in the back in ham palace by the royal family he was the one who how b.p.

secured trailing riots in we bear so when we hear all these narratives about how brutal and inhumane the get off the regime was to you believe being people i'm he was obviously perceived as part of that regime i think we also have to keep in mind that safe and sound was the prime example of the very accommodating treatment that's regime received from the british authorities well i think the fact is that there's a very complex and changing political background between the u.k. and france and u.s. and libya over the last ten twenty thirty years. from. a very poor relations to a warming of relations and it's gone back and forth the thing is is from my point of view of us i'm not a political scientist i'm no i don't make political commentary about. but what concerns me is is in fact what sexy sexy himself said last year which is he said i.c.c. is not a foreign policy institute. to be switched on and off you know to be used basically

when it's useful and to be disregarded when it's not and so what concerns me is that you're here now talk again about the i.c.c. immolation to syria and what concerns me is that if the u.k. is to use the i.c.c. when it's convenient and when it's not convenient to pretend it doesn't exist that's deeply wrong should be very simple the u.k. should say we support the i.c.c. the i.c.c. is not a foreign policy instrument to be switched on and off and to be used. we have to tell libya what they have to do we have to call them to to comply with its obligations it would have been very easy if the united kingdom was genuinely concerned with protection of human lives and human rights of each i seeing is not the case but since you said that they are not a political scientist you are a lawyer last me ask you straight isn't simply the case that a fair trial for safe. is simply impossible because regardless of where he is tried he will be judged not only for his own crimes not only for his father's crimes but

ultimately also for the crimes of. you know some of those in the west who had no qualms about dealing with his father's regime a couple of years ago but now all of a sudden take the moral high ground it seems to me that it's one of those cases when justice couldn't be served no i wouldn't i would agree because you have to consider who would be trying him at the i.c.c. and it wouldn't be a. panel of judges. or a libyan or u.k. panel it would be three judges in the trial and five on appeal and those judges might be canadian japanese russian. and who's to say that canadian japanese and russian judge professionals who are doing their job properly will not actually disregard politics and look at the evidence before them to say. they were sometimes accused of being political but if you look at the judges there's no reason why a danish judge or a. brazilian judge should have to follow the politics of they to the west and yet

if you look at their previous history of the r.c.c. i think there are a lot of concerns and complaints that some of the precipitate proceedings were highly politicized now i know that the gadhafi family itself once safe will islam to be transferred to you to the hague and i find that extremely ironic given the again the very politicized history about the i.c.c. has in libya. come all those allegations made by the i.c.c. chief prosecutor all of the by yonder used by the gadhafi troops allegations that were never substantiated later on and they did pave the way for the nader intervention and as far as i understand say full islam himself used to have a pretty low opinion of the i.c.c. which he expressed in one of his last interviews before his capture that he gave to you r.t. let's listen to what he had to say about the quarterback that. the scores. come

on the accuse me of killing people everybody knows even that i'm going to themselves then accuse me of using force because i'm not in the in the army i'm not in the government so for me to be responsible for killing people it was. he calls it the mickey mouse court that he had to see and his family would still prefer seem to be tried there in the hague rather than in his home but i think the two things one again you have to distinguish between a prosecutor who's bringing those charges which he says are on the i.c.c. judges who are going to going to hear the case so the fact the consider the charges . to make me justifiably consider the charges brought entirely erroneous but doesn't take away from the fact that you have a fair trial for the i.c.c. judges i don't really see an army in the sense that at the moment in libya anyone who had any association with the gadhafi regime never mind someone who actually

bears the name gadhafi is in danger of they're in danger of being persecuted they're in danger if they go broad abusive interpol red notice is issued against them to me it makes perfect sense and has nothing critical in the gadhafi family wanting him to be delivered to the hague well that's just choosing out of the last year of two evils i guess i suppose if if now weevils would be not to be tried at all which obviously you can understand they would prefer that. if there's to be a trial yes understandably they want to be in the hague now i've been to rehab every just played was recorded about two years ago and the last appearance made by safe in front of the t.v. cameras was if i'm not mistaken in may of two thousand thirteen and some of the journalists who were present in the courtroom about time describe him as disoriented and seemingly unaware of what was happening and i know that he spanned twenty months in solitary confinement beach could be very damaging to one side do you know what is the mental state of your client at this point. lost on cases

involving solitary. fund and studies have shown consistently shown that even after two weeks of such a fun it can be deeply damaging to one's mental health he spent as you say nearly two years in social fund and he hasn't had access even to to family members so one can only imagine that he must be in terrible mental torment and mental anguish you know she's facing the death penalty potentially he's also facing you know if there would be a break into the prison by by. by militia he could face much worse so. i'm sure his state is extremely anguished physically all i know is what others know from these reports that he's missing several fingers. and possibly teeth. and how to visit and other human rights bodies have been up to see him so one can only. imagine i don't want to cause you know doubts about his captors maybe does in tony

actually holding him in. comfortable conditions i don't know but i think that's not why but some of these human rights organizations that had access to him reported they actually criticized. you know there they stayed in the beach he is being held and my next question is here isn't that ultimately the most convenient strategy for pretty much everyone involved to keep him languishing in this legal limbo indefinitely latein go insane and that in and of itself will take care of all the compromising information that he may possess about powers that be yes i don't know i don't know about human rights but he's having access to him. that he is that hasn't existed but as you asked your question. i don't think about hate to think that he was being slowly driven insane although it's certainly possible but one has examples of people held for a very long time and you know alone i mean look back to napoleon rudolf hess the

historical examples where figures who were considered dangerous. in an isolated and yes it may it may suit certain factions to do that my point is that his law as a human rights lawyer is that piece of every. every moment human decency and human rights and the international community should allow it to continue even if even if there are those who think that he may have committed crimes you know we're not in the middle ages anymore where people suspected of crimes can be pilloried and mistreated and now mr jones a so far be focused on safer with law for obvious reasons but he's not the only a prisoner are held in libya there are a thousand detainees who are being held in makeshift prisons all around the country and some would suggest that conditions may be even harsher because his name his stature hayes publicity allows him a certain protection i would argue what about people whose names we don't know what

about their chances of having a fair trial and leave. a well publicized fact that there are thousands languishing in prison many without any charges being brought against them and torture is widespread in debian prisons and that's admitted even by senior ministers in. the government can call it that. so the polling human rights situation in the prisons you have to breaking out of prisons you have threats innocency case to break into the prison and kill him. so it's it's a terrible situation as to how they can have fair trials i don't see a prospect in a country which doesn't have a functioning legal system doesn't have a functioning judiciary as prosecutors being being killed or assaulted in the streets judges being killed. so you know what it's doing to the country which is rapidly sliding into complete anarchy and it's all to see it's the polling supporting mass now when we talk about justice and i'm sure you know that from your

previous experience of the i.c.c. in a war zone crimes war crimes are committed by both sides and. i think it's well documented that the militia were supported by the west it has to be had there they've also committed numerous atrocities in the name of their revolution and we are talking about killings here we are talking about rape looting all sorts of things that safe now stands accused of. in your view as a lawyer as somebody who knows something about the current state of justice in libya what do you thing are the chances of bringing those people to a column i think the chances of vanishingly small. number steve was granted for full crimes committed by rebels essentially and so essentially saying that these crimes killings rapes which are well documented which are. seen footage of crimes being committed those would not be brought to trial take for example the case of

say from his brother he was formed a life with superficial injuries in the in the control of a militia and minutes later there are photographs of him having been killed so that's clearly a war crime of killing a prisoner of war in cold blood. so far as i know and the people working on this. been know to to find who who committed the crime and to bring them to justice i think it's all very depressing and i hope that the lessons of libya will be considered as well. and not their campaign similar campaign now in syria unfortunately this is all we have time for please join us again same place same time here while the party.

war is probably the most complex and difficult human activity. first. of all. locked up. in the phenomenon of friendly fire probably extends back to the invention of gunpowder. to kill a bunch of people who don't know what they're up their families there are of us people. reading. this summer shoots my brother in the leg not intentional because it is because it was night time four in the morning even the best given the mesh shoulders. are going to make mistakes this is this whole idea of brotherhood and author and camaraderie in

this sense it was in this context it has absolutely no place. choose your language. we can we know if they still sometimes. choose that it's the consensus you can. choose the opinions that you think are great to. choose the stories that in real life choose the access to often. think. we're going to go digital the price is the only industry specifically mentioned in the constitution and. that's because a free and open press is critical to our democracy albus. role. in

fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and across several we've been hijacked why a handful of transnational corporations will profit by destroying what our founding fathers one school. mark and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem trucks rational debate and a real discussion critical issues facing. ready to join the movement then walk a little bit of. good lumber tour. was able to build a new most sophisticated robot fortunately doesn't give a darn about anything turns mission to teach music creation why it should care

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believe. russia says it will hand over evidence to the u.n. that could implicate syrian rebels in last month's chemical attack as a senior diplomat criticizes international inspectors for failing to consider the data also. the large group of protesters that clash with the police the police are holding their ground right now as you can see there's fires behind me greek police used tear gas to disperse riots has angered by the killing of an anti fascist campaigner a correspondent gets caught up in the mayhem. the follows the prosecution in libya of the sun on war crimes charges the country defies the international criminal court's demand under move it to the hague.