twenty months has been held in solitary confinement awaiting trial will justice be ever served in his case and what is justice in mourning today and we be able to discuss that i'm now joined by john jones a british lawyer representing safe all islam gadhafi mr jones thank you very much for your time now as far as i understand your client is expected to appear in court on september nineteenth but those charges have nothing to do with the two thousand and eleven revolution as far as i understand he is accused of trying to escape an insulting believe be a flag now compared to you know the main charges against him be charged crimes against humanity these these offenses seem pretty minor and yet they're taking the priority he's being tried on them i know them the main charges against him could you update us on this case because it's so pretty messy it's hard to make sense from all those conflicting media reports that we are getting very hard to be sure of what's going on in libya because there are conflicting announcements by the

libyan authorities all the time what i understand is that the september will be not only the charges as you said of insulting the national flag but also the war crimes charges relating to the incident two thousand and eleven and perhaps just to explain what that means the there was a visit last june last year by an official i.c.c. delegation. from the i.c.c. to meet with khadafi it was supposed to be a meeting which would be privileged confidential and yes actually it was monitored documents which were privileged were confiscated and so that trial if you like the national security trial is based on on seizing those documents which the libyans should never have seized and in fact the i.c.c. has ordered them to return those documents and so that's one trial which should be happening until then on the nineteenth of september the libyan authorities have announced that he will also stand trial with. another co-defendants on the main trial if you like the main crimes. it's humanity trial. but no one knows if that's

really true or not whether that's actually expected to happen now i find it interesting that it when you are in the dark given that you're actually representing him i wonder how much communication access you actually have to your client at this point have you even spoken to him i have absolutely no contact with him whatsoever and it's impossible to have any contact with him because the libyans are keeping came in solitary incommunicado detention he said no access in eighty two years to his family to its loved ones to his friends and much less to a lawyer and so i represented before the international criminal court where we've succeeded in an argument he should be transferred and my position is i wouldn't even try and visit him in libya because it would be not in his interest and would be impossible and in the event and i think it's more than anything that be the previous lawyer that was appointed by the i.c.c. milind the tailor who actually dared to travel to libya to the studios in town where a safe alyssum is now being held she was arrested me the way through her meeting

with him and held there for a month so i can certainly understand why when you would be reluctant to travel there for your own safety reasons but i wonder what you can really do for your client from london or you know from any other location of the you may travel except for libya what i can do with my team have been doing before the international criminal court is to is to win a decision in his favor from the international court saying that the case should be heard by the i.c.c. and should not be heard in libya and ordering libya to surrender safety duffy to the hague and that's happened on thirty first of may this year and the appeals chamber of the i.c.c. has also said that even though it appears on going they still have to deliver him and they have there's no. the appeal so they have to deliver him today can say what we can do what we are doing is. arguing the case in detroit at the i.c.c. most interviewer will be a show trial where he faces the death penalty i know that you made it clear in some

of the previous interviews that you believe that this whole legal quagmire if the i.c.c. are requesting the transfer of say full islam and libor refusing to hand him over may actually damage the credibility of the international criminal court and as far as i understand in the interview with time magazine you actually sad. that makes the court appear to have less but alternately isn't it what the court really ease in the eyes of the libyan authorities because they couldn't care less about all the i.c.c. warrants and orders they couldn't care less about the un security council resolutions because they know pretty well that regardless of what they do to say full islam and thousands of other prisoners who are kept in libya these days there would be absolutely no punishment. the like only actual course into for chemical can't do anything unless it has the support of other states and the danger is of international courts appearing as i say toothless and they appear to do this if

they issue orders and those orders are ignored now it was the case from yugoslavia at the tribunal for the former yugoslavia that those countries to some of the countries didn't want to cooperate with a phrase they couldn't care less about. but the international community made those countries they made for example. membership to use made contingent in some ways dependent on delivering on takeoff of even. to the hague it may well be the case it is the case that india which is a country after all slipping into anarchy every day they say well we don't care about i.c.c. but they do care about economic sanctions they care about not having membership for example in the in the they would if the european parliament said that. we're vesting to debut was contingent on delivering safe gadhafi to the hague so they can be made to and that's what the committee has to do if it believes in the codes it has to support the cause well let's see if the international community as you say

western leaders who spearheaded this campaign against gadhafi regime really have the guts to do anything to the new libyan authorities if say full islam ever sees his day in court whether in libya or at the r.c.c. on those main charges of crimes against humanity war crimes what do you think is the most realistic scenario what do you think is the most likely afraid that he can face especially in the current circumstances i think you would agree with me about his his odds of seeing a trial in libya probably higher than at the i.c.c. if he's delivered to the sea he may well stand a good chance of being acquitted and being being freed because you can have a fair trial before an international court you can have a trial and the circumstances where there isn't time to get daffy which i'm told in the country well i would take an issue with you or how a search and that you can actually have a fair trial at the i.c.c. i think the i.c.c.

credibility at this point of time is pretty tarnished not only by be wholely be in a fair because the i.c.c. played a very destructive very politicized role in this whole a libyan controversy and the lead up to the. ouster of more market often but what do you think will be his most realistic fate if he is tried in libya do you think he will be found guilty and if so what kind of punishment do you think you will get it would not be he would be convicted and would receive the death penalty couple of weeks ago a formal education minister mr ibrahim was sentenced to death after a very short process in misrata and. it's you know if you could easily suffer the same fate. just go back to your point about the i.c.c. and i think one has to do. which the different organs of the i.c.c. you can talk about the prosecutor. who she or he at the time chose to indict and whether that's a political decision alone but when we talk about a fair trial you have about three judges who have been chosen for their

independence and impartiality and expertise and i'm confident that you could have a fair trial before the i.c.c. coming back to you are your assertion about safe chances for fair trial being fairly low i would agree with you on that point but i would disagree with you on him getting capital punishment because ultimately he is the what trophy for isn't on militia and as long as they can keep him alive they have a very powerful bargaining chip on their hands so. i think what these the most likely what these the most realistic before you came is to be kept in detention indefinitely and that would serve them best i would argue what they think i think that sunny what one sees now in this is a power play between zintan in tripoli and this forms the whole background to the i.c.c. case with tripoli oh the authorities there for you can talk about authorities because the set is barely a state libya anymore but you have the there is an tripoli saying that in towns

under their control and that he will be transferred from from sometimes tripoli and as you say he's actually a very important bargaining chip hugely price really in toni's. so as to what would in fact happen whether if he were one issues he could be convicted and sentenced to death and maybe the sentence would be carried out it's a grisly prospect which other innocent to speculate about a year and a half ago i was trying to arrange an interview if say for the slum and for that i had to negotiate a lot of top rankings in town commanders and the interview never materialized but they told me on a number of occasions that they have actually nothing against trying say full islam and it was the so-called central authorities in tripoli who. we're sabotaging the whole process because of all the potential embarrassing revelation that he can make about some of the members parliament some of the members of the government hold used to work with his father by shift the very convenient moment for them what do

you think about that doesn't your client simply know too much to be allowed to take the stand well as i haven't spoken to him. but i can i can summarize that you know he would know a great tale about what happened and gadhafi is libya which could be embarrassing both to libyans and to foreign leaders and what you say about. people having an interest in not giving evidence not speaking freely would also be true and even more true much much are in fact if you would give it to the i.c.c. today because then he could he could speak freely about all those things i doubt whether he'd ever be able to speak very for you about any matters and even in a trial i think you'd be under very controlled environment to be under detention where he knows that what he says is can rebound on him negatively and that's one reasons why it's not in my interest and not in his interests for us to try to meet in ins in time to discuss matters because he knows and he will know of the need to

tell you it's that you mentioned that everything he says is monitored everything he says is listened to and so he can't really complain that he can't really spill the beans about anything important as long as he's detained in libya but even if. mr jones even if he's transferred to the hague there is a lot of. potentially compromising information that's going to care about western leaders for example the allegations about his father contributing funds to the. sarkozy's election campaign so how genuine do you seem to be i.c.c. really is and its calls to. transfer it get off it to the hague you know how would argue that this is just you know lip service but in fact not many western leaders are truly interested in. having him take the stand well that i think what he says absolutely true i think the i.c.c. is that he said we're talking about the i.c.c. judges who ought to be sent to the hague i think. in wanting him to be he should be

transferred but i think what i do find disturbing and this goes back to the matter of an open letter i wrote to the foreign secretary here in the u.k. i'm calling on him to put pressure on that is that many western countries do have an interest in being friends with with libya potentially not having safety duffy transferred to the i.c.c. at least not if it unites their supporters ok mr jones we have to take a short break now but when we come back britain as you just pointed out was one of the most active members of the actually good alfie call ation predicating its involvement on the need to protect human lives and human rights is it still ask uncertain about those issues now that gadhafi sr is gone that's coming up now on a well that part.

unexplored antarctica what is it in this icy expanse that attracts the people who come here. now i only go to the dock. and enter into. a new generation of polar explorers is coming. we have a new group of specialists here now all of them are young how are they going to get along with each other and i don't know. who. i used to be a bureaucrat. seriously. what adventures await in this mysterious land where they live what to eat and what are they actually doing in antarctica. dramas that can't be ignored to. stories others to refuse to notice. the faces changing the world lights now.

on the old picture of today's thieves. on to and from around the globe. local. t.v. . please speak your language. programs in documentaries in arabic in school here on. reporting from the world's hot spots seventy ip interviews intriguing story so you. live in trying. to find out because it.

welcome back to worlds apart we're discussing the state of justice in more than daily beer with joan jones said british lawyer representing one market office al-hassan say full islam mr jones just before the break here mansion last month he sent an open letter to the british foreign secretary william hague calling on him to quote intervene to condemn li baer for its breaches of international law and to call upon it to comply immediately with the i.c.c. order have you received any reply from the foreign office yes i did recently receive a reply but it didn't really didn't answer my questions so i had to send a response to that i guess it's hardly surprising given how preoccupied mr hague may be rid of yet another possible to manage terror and intervention this time in syria but i think it's worth reminding our viewers that just

a couple of years ago safe all islam was received very warmly in britain he was hosted in the bakken ham palace by the royal family he was the one who how b.p. secured trailing rides in the bears so when we hear all these narratives about how brutal and inhumane to get off the regime was to the libyan people he was obviously perceived as part of that regime i think we also have to keep in mind that safe alyssa was the prime example of the very accommodating treatment that's regime received from the british authorities well i think the fact is that there's a very complex and changing political background between the u.k. and france and u.s. and libya over the last ten twenty thirty years. from. very poor relations to a warming of relations and it's gone back and forth the thing is is from my point of view of us i'm not a political scientist i'm no i don't make political commentary about about

a lot of that but what concerns me is. is in fact. himself said last year which is he said i.c.c. is not a foreign policy instrument to be switched on and off to be used basically when it's useful and to be disregarded when it's not and so what concerns me is that you here now talk again about the i.c.c. emulation to syria and what concerns me is if the u.k. is to use the i.c.c. when it's convenient and when it's not convenient to pretend it doesn't exist that's deeply wrong should be very simple the u.k. should say we support the i.c.c. the i.c.c. is not a foreign policy instrument to be switched on and off and to be used. we have to tell libya what they have to do we have to call them to to comply with its obligations it would have been very easy for the united kingdom was genuinely concerned with protection of human lives and human rights of each i seeing is not the case but since you said that they are not a political scientist you are

a lawyer last me ask is trade isn't it simply the case that a fair trial for safe on a slum is simply impossible because regardless of where he's tried he will be judged not only for his own crimes not only for his father's crimes but ultimately also for the crimes of. you know some of those in the west who had no qualms about dealing with his father's regime a couple of years ago but now all of a sudden take the moral high ground it seems to me that it's one of those cases when justice couldn't be served no i wouldn't i would agree because you have to consider who would be trying him at the i.c.c. and it wouldn't be a. panel of judges. or a libyan or u.k. panel it would be three judges in the trial and five on appeal and those judges might be canadian japanese russian. and who's to say that canadian japanese and russian judge professionals who are doing their job properly will not

actually disregard politics and look at the evidence before them to see. they were sometimes accused of being political but if you look at the judges there's no reason why a danish judge or a brazilian judge should follow the politics of may to the west and yet if you look at their previous history of the r.c.c. i think there are a lot of concerns and complaints that some of the precipitate proceedings were highly politicized now i know that the gadhafi family itself once safe will islam to be transferred to you to the hague and i find that extremely ironic given the again the very politicized history about the i.c.c. has in libya to mind come all those allegations made by the i.c.c. chief prosecutor all of the by yonder used by the gadhafi troops allegations that were never substantiated later on and they did pave the way for the nader intervention and as far as i understand say full islam himself used to have

a pretty low opinion of the i.c.c. which he expressed in one of his last interviews before his capture that he gave you r.t. let's listen to what he had to say about the quarterback that. the score is. called. come on the accuse me of killing people everybody knows even but i'm going to themselves they're not accusing me of using force or because i'm not in the me i'm not in the government so for me to be responsible for killing people it was. he calls it the mickey mouse court that he had his family would still prefer seem to be tried there in the hague rather than in his home but i think the two things one again you have to distinguish between the prosecutor who's bringing those charges which he says are and the i.c.c. judges who are going to going to hear the case so the fact the consider the charges . to make me justifiably consider the charges brought entirely erroneous but

doesn't take away from the fact that you have a fair trial from the i.c.c. judges i don't really see an army in the sense that at the moment in libya anyone who had any association with the gadhafi regime never mind someone who actually bears the name gadhafi is in danger of they're in danger of being persecuted they're in danger if they go broad i mean abusive interpol red notices issued against them to me it makes perfect sense and has nothing critical in the gadhafi family wanting him to be delivered to the hague well let's just choosing out of the last hour of two evils i guess i suppose if if no weevils would be not to be tried which obviously you can understand they would prefer that if there's to be a trial yes understandably they want to be in the hague now i've been to we have every just played was recorded about two years ago and the last appearance made by safe in front of the t.v. cameras was if i'm not mistaken in may of two thousand thirteen and some of the journalists who were present in the courtroom at that time describe him as

disoriented and seemingly unaware of what was happening and i know that he spanned twenty months in solitary confinement beach could be very damaging to one side do you know what is the mental state of your client at this point a. lot of cases involving solitary. fund and studies have shown consistently shown that even after two weeks of such a fund it can be deeply damaging to one's mental health he spend as you say nearly two years in social fund and he hasn't had access even to to family members so one can only imagine that he must be in terrible mental torment and mental anguish you know she's facing the death penalty potentially he's also facing you know if there would be a break into the prison by. by a militia he could face much worse so mention i'm sure his state is extremely anguished physically all i know is what others know from these reports that he's missing several fingers. and possibly teeth. and how to visit

and other human rights bodies have been up to see him so one can only. imagine i don't want to cost you know doubts about his captors maybe does in tony actually holding him in. comfortable conditions i don't know but i think that's not what some of these human rights organizations that had access to him reported they actually criticized. you know there they stayed in the beach he is being held and my next question is here isn't that ultimately the most convenient strategy for pretty much everyone involved to keep him languishing in this legal limbo indefinitely latein go insane and that in and of itself will take care of all the compromising information that he may possess about powers that be yes i don't know i don't know about human rights but he's having access to mines that is that hasn't existed but that i still question. i don't think about hate to think that he was

being slowly driven insane although it's certainly possible but one has examples of people held for a very long time and you know alone i mean look back to napoleon rudolf hess there are historical examples where figures who were considered dangerous. in an isolated and yes it may it may suit certain factions to do that my point is that his lot as a human rights lawyer is that piece of every. every moment human decency and human rights in the international community should allow it to continue even if even if there are those who think that he may have committed crimes you know we're not in the middle ages anymore where people suspected of crimes can be pilloried and mistreated and now mr jones a so far be focused on safer with law for obvious reasons but he's not the only a prisoner held in libya there are a thousand detainees who are being held in makeshift prisons all around the country

and some would suggest that conditions may be even harsher because his name his stature hayes publicity allows him a certain protection i would argue what about people whose names we don't know what about their chances of having a fair trial and leeway to. publicise fact that there are thousands languishing in prison many without any charges being brought against them and torture is widespread and of in prisons and that's admitted even by senior ministers in the. libyan government called it out. so the polling human rights situation in the prisons you have people breaking out of prisons you have threats innocency case to break into the prison and kill him. so it's it's a terrible situation as to how they can have fair trials i don't see a prospect in a country which doesn't have a functioning legal system doesn't have a functioning judiciary as prosecutors being being killed or salted in the streets

judges being killed. so you know getting the country which is rapidly sliding into complete anarchy and it's all to see it's the pulling and supporting mess now when we talk about justice and i'm sure you know that from your previous experience of the i.c.c. in a war zone crimes war crimes are committed by both sides and. i think it's well documented that the militia were supported by the west it has to be added it also committed numerous atrocities in the name of their revolution and we are talking about killings here we are talking about rape moving all sorts of things that safe now stands accused of. in your view as a lawyer somebody who know something about the current state of justice in libya or do you thing are the chances of bringing those people to a column i think the chances of vanishingly small. number steve was granted for full crimes committed by rebels essentially and so essentially saying that these

crimes killings rapes which are well documented which are which i've certainly seen footage of crimes being committed those would not be brought to trial take for example the case of say from his long duffy's brother he was formed a life with superficial injuries in the in the control of a militia and minutes later photographs of him having been killed so that's clearly a war crime of killing a prisoner of war in cold blood. suppose i know that the people working on this latest operation been know to to find who who committed the crime and to bring them to justice i think it's all very depressing and i hope that the lessons of libya will be considered as well. and not their campaign similar campaign now in syria unfortunately this is all we have time for please join us again same place same time here on a wild card. war

is probably the most complex and difficult to. answer. to the phenomenon of friendly fire probably extends back to the invention of gunpowder. kill a bunch of people and. their families there are in the us people.

this summer shoots my brother in the leg not intentional because it is because it was night times four in the morning even the best given the mesh shoulders. are going to make mistakes does this whole idea of brotherhood an author. and camaraderie in this sense it was in this context that has absolutely no place. in mission free couldn't taste should be free. for charges free. range month three. three. free. download free blog plug in video for your media project a freebie audio dock to our teeth on tom.

and. and. i.

turkey closes a major supply route to syria's opposition this. control of a key town and turn on rebel forces. meanwhile president vladimir putin mourns again sparking extremist factions in syria saying there's no simple way to shoot them from power should they eventually get it. in the killing of unarmed spoken anti-fascist. spiraling into violence with authorities now looking at the suspected murderous links to the far right golden dawn party. plus the son of libyan dictator moammar gadhafi has his war crimes trial adjourned until december it will still take place in libya despite requests by the international criminal court to ship him to the hague.