but selling your leasing off your country is another and by another i mean treason but that's just my opinion. hello and welcome to all the part it came to the promise of liberation from hard labor but soon turned into yet another and diction is technology getting humanity more than it's taking from it well to discuss that i'm now joined by a co-founder of apple a god like figure in the i ching for old steve wozniak he said was nick thank you very much for being on the show i know that you describe yourself as an agnostic or an atheist but it seems wherever you go you have worship how does it feel. you know what i am so glad that technology has gone so far as change your life so much that

people actually feel a kind of a love and a club and they look for a symbol to worship and i'm an accidental symbol i was just you know a lucky great engineer at one time well you know i don't think it's so accidental and speaking about apple and worshipping i think apple was one of the first companies to really put man and human experience in the center of the design of the company and really try to create a god as that would be the extension of human skills human capacity it's very comfortable obviously but on the other hand. isn't there a danger of that we will lose our ability to innovate because you know it's been sad many times the necessity and maybe even the frustration is the mother of invention i think if i get that right it's like everything has been done for us so well that oh my god i think i'm becoming more lazy and yes become lazy and we don't have to think we don't have to innovate. i disagree because all of the factors that are. making it possible for our products to do these things it feels like wow i

used to have to work and i used to think hard those still lead they need thinking to get developed so hey at least become one of the developers. you know and apple's always had this mission mission to make things that are easier for the human put the human first and that means saving us exercise from physical labor saving us from mental labor saving us from thinking hard and i really i really like it i enjoy it i think i'm getting a lot more use out of my products when i just sort of speak naturally to them and get done what i want to do will we get to will it get worse than it is today are we on a trend towards devices doing so much for us it's like we only make a few little important decisions in our life you know then we fill up the rest of the time with communication i don't know that's a question but we can't stop it so why worry about it well but if you look at the our own lives and their history of it they add to one an apple two i know that you said on several occasions that one of the reasons you've been able to come up with

this very attractive product is because of the shortage of money you have to innovate you have to think about how to create it on a shoestring budget. and now it seems well i don't know if everything was delivered on a golden play do you think you would still have a motivation to go ahead and did. you know what look at some more recent innovations ok the movie the social network on facebook and facebook came out of the same origins as apple you know very little money in an idea that people started recognizing you know was popular and desired by people and those ideas keep coming up and they come up more in the app world area and look at how much apps cost for smartphones they cost zero or one dollar or two dollars or three so they're very much still forced by the fact there isn't going to be a lot of revenue we're just going to do it from our heart and a lot of innovation comes out there a lot of them turn out to be successful when people didn't expect that doesn't mean

it's the average is your make a lot of money with apps but that world is very open could i make an entire computer platform today anybody sits back see i was very lucky i was one human being who could build the whole computer the hardware in the software and building it doing the whole thing today it's so many millions of bits of code you have to take what's already been done before before piece it together and do what other people are doing and then you have to be ineffectual and you just can't compete with the big companies in the same area now that's why the area of competition has shifted to how we live our life and how these tools can be used to affect our lives now speaking about a necessity being the mother of invention just the conference here in moscow that focuses on how to make the i.t. secretary new locomotive of growth for russia and there's been discussion about that for the last i guess seventy years maybe even longer but the problem is of course that almost half of precious revenues still come from oil and gas which are

relatively easy to produce and easier to sell do you think it's still even reasonable to talk about creating a silicon valley here in russia isn't that too little too late given how far the technologies have progressed so far i think it's very reasonable i think especially here in russia you know what they do from moscow i see plaxo. in a lot of buildings that are pointed out to me on hearing dancers and engineers and artists and the creative people and i think there's in the culture of this country is a lot of appreciation for for those who have been creative and those who created new things i've already seen products even today here in in russia that are just just outstanding products of the world so when it comes from the mind no minds anywhere in the world are better than any other minds this idea can we be another silicon valley it takes time to build up a critical mass to have more and more and more and more technology companies but i think it is a good proper direction for all countries that depend today on natural resources

you know like russia those it's the right step why why would you think that couldn't be done here couldn't compete a lot of thinking has to be done more about the psychology than the actual knowledge of engineering and products psychology what motivates people what motivates on and innovators how do you take advantage of somebody who has a lot of ideas what sort of resources should you help them with not huge amounts of money to build a company i but but maybe a little amounts of money to buy little products and use tools as they need to get their dreams created well let me pick up on that here a somebody who definitely have built face from scratch what do you thing about the idea off subsidies for involuntary sound creating i've never heard of it being done but i'm totally for it and one of the things is when i worked for hewlett packard designing all the apple stuff they had a policy in the company that was written and it said that an inventor could i'm

sorry an engineer could have parts out of his storeroom chips and things like that for devices of his own design with supervisor approval well you know what to borrow a few dollars worth of chips and build something up even for yourself or your home is increasing your mind in a way that you couldn't yet the same sort of learning. from a university course and it would cost a lot more i wonder if you could give your russian colleagues. a tip. i know that back in the i think it was in the eighty's maybe in the nine hundred eighty four interview that he said that every year every day kids we have a new industry being created from scratch that goes very dramatically and the second to me so that we have the personal computers and phones and later social networks i wonder what do you think is going to be the next big breakthrough do you have any ideas on that i'm actually with what everybody is talking about which is wearable technology but i'm also thinking that the speech recognition and speech

understanding that's artificial intelligence stuff we've never really gotten close to penetrating or understanding how the real brain works so i think if we keep taking steps in that direction we're going to stumble on the clues by accident i want a machine that talks to me like you're talking to me and understands my words the way you are and looks at my face and understands my wife and even knows things about my family what's important to me that we're not even talking about i want that personal friend in a machine and it might take a long time you know it might take us twenty years to get to that point thirty years but mainly in me and many people say that technology is making us a bunch of. very lonely people you know like it's. real connection if something like that is being developed isn't there a danger that we will become essentially encapsulated within our own little technological world that's what we say only because we fear that the change that something different is worse than what we had before things that meant

a lot motional and were beautiful in our lives can go away that doesn't mean the new person doesn't have those emotions in a different sense i watch my own kids go into a room and all day long in the room on a computer and thinking whoa there just away from the world i have a newspaper they don't know things in the world they knew more than i did it turned out also i thought of myself i was of. shy person you know and shy people it's very difficult to go out in society you're fraid of people you don't want to ever talk to people you walk in routes that avoid ever having to bump in and say a word to another person online you're online you're not you're unknown it's like you could open up and all of a sudden have a world of friends no matter how shy you are so it has actually helped a lot in that social regard but i heard these saying that you have on facebook you have two thousand maybe even more now on the grounds that people that you don't really know. isn't the same as having to pay all the time problem is i'm so soft i won't be a hard person if somebody says something nice very nice to me good comments about

how much i've been in their life or apple has yes i can be a friend i can't turn you down when you're that way you know if you send me a picture of a couple i believe in true love and you know i see it they're ok you're going as a friend i don't know that the trouble is i also do never she will never shut off my email so every facebook message comes to me and i read it. a huge amount of my huge amount of time and huge amount of my life goes into that but hey you know what a lot of benefits come out i've met some really great people that kind of move from the category of fans into frequents so i make more friends every year like real friends so i kind of stay in touch with more than i ever could have imagined you mentioned your kids and how savvy of they are with technology but there are a lot of studies especially in the united states showing that you know this new generation on average has the last friends that people off noise generation had. do you think that's partly to technology and the way we overlay the surrounding world

i'm guessing that you're probably referring to some study that it was less hosts friends that you really got with all the time because when you have a lot of friends they tend to get deluded and spread out distribution of responsibility and maybe that's just the future the total sum total stuff is probably more important than anything for example you always talk about brains. i have a problem if one hundred friends here in know and all will jump in and help you right away you probably get a solution more likely than one or two that you trust for an answer now at this particular point of time you are the most famous american in moscow but there is one more american here who is also relatively famous and has a similar background to you or his computer wizard of sorts and i'm talking obviously about edward snowden and you know that some americans believe he is a hero others believe he's a criminal what do you stand i believe he's a hero of my belief he's coming directly from his heart that he feels some goodness

that he wants to be truthful to the american people that he believes in and loves his country america is so strong with and that's all true and that he took a very drastic step and made a sacrifice and i wish that i look around anything in my life that i could do equivalent is make the sacrifice i would do it i don't have no it's information to expose you know on our. government bad activities that they do secretly because nobody would really think it's the right thing so i'm i'm very. i'm very glad that he exists among us seeing a hero and i wish that someday if i'm in the same situation i hope that i have the courage to do the same thing that you know that russia granted him that temporary political asylum and when they say issue was consider it the president of this country putin was asked about snowden and he's answer was very peculiar or curious to me he actually said that he doesn't really understand people like that you know somebody who has a very technical mind who has

a very low profile and yet somebody who would put his entire life on the line for his principles now he doesn't understand people like that but you probably have been with people like that all your life i mean you you may be one of them do you think we'll see more techies taking taking up with governments around the wall for. sake of values that they believe i'm not sure that techies are that what say liberal minded trying to do good for for humans i think a lot of them fall across the spectrum just like any type of people so i don't think you can actually put it on a techie i think snowden could well have been just a humble assists and maybe had janitor you know maybe a very important worker i think could have been anywhere i don't think it really matters that he is a techie and i don't know exactly what his tech responsibilities are but i think people like that they don't know what doesn't work the last thing is the thing is there something about truth being very important when you spend your whole life

working in systems like engineering in software and your programs have to work you come up with this very strong watchable there is a logical connection and you should follow the logic the logic leads you to the right answer it leads you to the objective answer and you don't follow a bias a bias would say oh i'm from my side i'm from my country i'm from my employer. know you know what i don't know this whole thing about you know it's kind of socratic about just truth truth than get it out to me the apex of all good in my life i decided when i was twenty years old is truth and if people are hiding the truth what they're doing is they think it's bad and that that applies to even the government the trouble is i thought that i thought that putin when i read all that i thought that maybe he was realizing his government has the same sort of spying even on civilians and well they say i don't know the extent of spying it seems that many arab governments have similar programs and one of the things that edward snowden revealed is that many of the big tech companies are actually sort of

complicit in this flying activity isn't that surprising to you that people who started that business from scratch who were maybe idealistic at certain point of their lives would actually have crossed the rubicon and joined the powers that be i think that some of the tech companies want to be there and it's usually cell phone carriers i think a lot. the other companies like you know apple and google and more the technology companies i think they they do not want to do that at all and i think it was forced on them by the government under you know under legal conditions that basically you know you'll be you'll be thrown into jail or something like that we have to take a short break now but when we come back steve the inventor and steve the business executive how did they strive gold and why did they call part that's coming up in a few moments on wealth apart.

soldiers you're in the military no more joking any more. never been some time in my life. every day would be the story absolutely. you think it's going to be easy. but everyone's. just gets to. say i don't know if i'm going to make it to the end. he still feeling some i'm just like on the left i don't know what to do. so we leave that maybe. the scene to secure. your party there's a goal. for shoes that no one is asking with to get that you deserve answers from.

politicking only on our team. the pledge play was a terrible mistake now i'm very sorry to take out a letter to get along here is a plot that you never had sex with other make their lives let alone was. just so. listen the amount

. of. welcome back to well the part where we're discussing innovation and technology with the co-founder of apple thief mr was me and he said many times that he always wanted to be an engineer a person who creates things rather than managing people all finances and i'm sure you would say that both you and steve jobs had equally important contributions to the success of apple but if you look around for every brilliant engineer we can find dozens if not hundreds brilliant managers and i mean brilliant engineers a heart of to find but. at the same time there is a whole of a blockbuster about steve jobs with the character of steve wozniak playing a supporting role do you think we have our priorities this ride in terms of the

social and business value of these two film engineering versus marketing and sales . i don't sometimes i do and sometimes i don't market sales is very important might be a tougher job to get people to accept the word computer in their home than it was for me to create it now i look i go back and look at my engineering that was so different that anything you could ever find in the book yes that kind of engineer is very very difficult very hard to find and the apple two was recognized by all my friends it was going to be a huge hit product it was the product it brought all the revenues to apple computer for the first ten years but it didn't do it alone without the marketing and the business genius you know of largely people above steve jobs who were teaching him but steve's push and his speaking that being a face of the company was equally important and really making that product successful i think that a lot of people i see now being trained to have their business success and they're

being trained how to write all the documents to raise money and describe an idea they have and they think that the idea has value and they discredit some. they they leave out well when i get the money i'll go find some engineers don't you should include the engineers and think you know what the product is they have been working their whole life with since deep thought and very quickly spotting when something could be done that other people hadn't thought of so try to find out how do you find the really bright creative engineers it's difficult i run into one once in a while and i think this person is going to go somewhere and be one of the great inventors of all time but it's very rare and hard to find into it they aren't recognized by things like they have a college degree and they have this many years experience so no company really has a method to fund them and. i think for many young people and young man and increasingly young women there's now a real choice we steve to be const the inventor or steve the business executive on its own is that popular culture favors the latter and there are more benefits and

last risks associated with the latter choice so i think you do what's in your heart you know what i want my direction because it was in my heart and we started the company i would not i could have easily been one of the people running it and i didn't want to i didn't really be one of those people that forces says i'm more important than other people that's one thing i still to this day want to be at the bottom of the org charts just how i am you know i think so you know what you use your brilliance you know use your brilliance in whatever way you can and it's ok to make money it's ok to run a company too it's ok to be to have some involvement in the business in one of your previous interviews and during the conference you were a bit critical of this latest. film about steve jobs and you criticize that force that are. over glorification of steve jobs and giving him all the credit and i would argue that this is a part of much larger. humanity likes to create idols and maybe

a cult of personality not about just about you know a tag but also about movie stars sometimes country leaders and. song and in the beginning of this tax revolution there was a real belief that technology and the internet would make our world more democratized more equalized do you still believe that do you believe that it is actually making they swell. a bit more equal place when it comes to people from different countries from different backgrounds and. you said a lot and one thing. to look for you know for for heroes and icons like steve jobs he's well deserving of it that has nothing to do with why the movie was totally rotten and trash and it didn't even bring out the greatness you know the real steve jobs that was the problem as far as the internet democratizing things i think it has done the biggest job ever in the world almost everywhere that we get answers now that we used to books and books it didn't have its complete answers we used to be around smart people and ask them questions we for

a while we could load in seabees of encyclopedias you know we had methods in the past that over sudden anywhere in the world we can get answers and when i get the answers online the person that sent me the answers might be in pakistan or oman or you know all over the place are very shocked at how that is so yeah it has that we haven't really cut that off yet there is a danger that the internet has become a tool of governments to control us and walk just and monitor us more and not let us go off the out of the path i would like to pick up on this point i find it extremely ironic that an anguish the world intelligence has increasingly diverging meanings and one hand it's sort of a capacity for learning on the other hand it's all about security if in for gathering activities by the government and the first one is all about freedom of thought the second one that latter one is all about command and control and i wonder wheats weak form of intelligence would prevail because technology can on

both of them i like the way you phrase that although i thought when you started i thought intelligence actually you said it has two definitions i thought. you're going to say it has one that schools tell us that always being able to answer questions on tests critically mean you have the same answer as everyone else and it's not your own answer it came out of a book that's called intelligence your talk your whole life that is intelligence now people who go wandering off making products that never existed computers and electronics and things to control the home these people are not i mean those products a lot of stuff that i did for apple computer would get me an f. in a school courts wouldn't be allowed in a company it isn't you know it's thinking for yourself is the real intelligence but it's not what schools call intelligence with their numbers their measurements in the tests and now as far as calling. acquiring information about the world intelligence i actually think that's important and it can be used for good or bad it's who uses it and how they use it now one of your last encounter. at

a conference back in two thousand and six and your heart of a child there you exchanged formal phrases you promised to catch up later and maybe it's just me but i have i think that encounter had a very sad feeling because you know we know about both of you being these great technological duel about you can see that footage that you know you were no longer good friends now given how much time you spent in the beginning off your career why why did you grow up part wasn't because of money power and evolving personalities what happened with you only have a certain number of close friends in your life and steve and i were closest friends for five years leading to the starting of apple but your close friends are ones that are doing the same things as you when we started apple his personality was changing into the perceived jobs that would be forever and he was going to be high up leader of a company having the say in running things being very important and being at that

level the company mine was i wanted to be humble and i want to do the greatest engineering and come up with ideas and things that. other people in the world wouldn't even think of and i kept doing that apple had a quite a group quite a bit of impact on our early starting products. and that was so we were in different parts of the company you know it's like steve didn't wanted the glory alone too and it didn't need me being there at the top you could have two people be in the face of the company so i think that was right we each got what we wanted out of it i was very happy i want to be in the background i didn't ever want to be even on television with you now that was not my idea it's just that people loved so much that came out of the company and you got to give steve jobs an awful lot of the credit for for a espousing words and beliefs and things like the one nine hundred eighty four commercial that got people believing in what the company was about so i actually benefit a lot of that now we were not close friends but you know what steve was respectful for me to me from day one he would call me on the phone near the end of his life

and he would love always want to like he was thinking about those early days did we ever think what it could become and and i know that that meant a lot to him just those free early friendship days back in two thousand and ten i believe you may have lived by predicting that and joy it would be a dominant over the i phone market wise but it would remain on sort of technological still believe that. the i phone i thing in terms of some kind of mark in marketing figures sales and one of these units android actually surpassed the i phone as far as overtaking it in people's minds no it's always been one of the i phone is the top product that you hear about it's the special one and there are a lot of ways that to explain why you know maybe android sell more samsung is sells more phone smart phones than apple does do they make more profit are they going to be the leaders though for the next type of product that comes along or not we'll

have to see but i'm not going to disdain android because what started out it was not as good as an i phone but it grew. up and you know it had the mentality behind it kind of like what we have from apple that makes our products good and the guy who was behind them droid. in the reuben a good friend of mine i was on a company that made a smart phone he worked at apple and he has a whole macintosh mindset anyway of make things easy and obvious to people that some people believe that these whole while the fuck locations that apple created is more consequential the conscience themselves because if you look around for example i tunes you totally changed my life i can you know i get access to courses from the best universities from my own home for free so it's volition izing higher education and things that i know that you are very passionate about education what are your favorite apps and we each area do you think has the most potential for the development of application. you know i'm so short of time these days my favorite

apps are usually like siri is definitely my favorite app on the i phone i got to say that and then if i went through a whole day and showed all the different apps i use at different times it will vary day to day and i can't say any one of them was any more important than each other except you know siri i mean it's a series of more important making phone calls would you like it to be improved i mean is there a potential to develop oh my gosh hugely because very often i get frustrated when i speak it and then i change my words and i speak it more clearly and it understates my words right but it doesn't understand what i meant and i want to teach it but that's software and that's programming you've got to give it time just like some verlee computers didn't sell very well at first but then given enough years we can still make a market out of them nic thank you very much for your time and if you like the show please join us again same place same time here in a while for quite. some

may disagree. but i believe america is exceptional. let's. let.

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