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trust we may have that and that's the real issue and they're going to have to earn that back the hard way. the torch is on a big journey to. one hundred twenty three days. through two hundred cities of russia. really fourteen thousand people or sixty. in a record setting trip. there. are numbers. a little the torch relay. on our.
following welcome to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter all of the trial of mohamed morsi what is this trial all about constitutional legitimacy political retribution can morsi get a fair trial for the military backed government the trial is key to showing its plan for transition towards democracy and have a plan is this and what message does this trial send to the muslim world. to cross not the situation in egypt i'm joined by in washington he's an egyptian political activists and in pittsburgh we crossed a great roman he is a former israeli official in the ministry of defense and ministry of foreign affairs right gentlemen cross-talk roles in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to very much encourage and let's go to washington first should be in washington the trial has been adjourned it started it's already been adjourned has been described by morsy supporters as. unfair unjust and unconstitutional how
do you react to that well first thanks for having me on your show. we can't judge this and call it unfair when it hasn't started yet yesterday we had the first hearing but there are segments on there are signs that we have seen that may make us believe that this is turning to be a political feud and this is what we don't need to see at this point the current provisional government has been backing over or has been backed by the military and this is a yucky situation for the military which is supposed to be. more independent. i personally believe that the trial could have been postponed until the roadmap gets. accomplished there are clear steps to where we can place
egypt back on democracy. finishing the constitution holding a parliamentary and presidential election and then we you know the elected government that newly elected government could have been in power like this would take place ok ok greg in pittsburgh i mean i saw the pictures of the trial as it was held for a very short amount of time it was a fiasco and it turns it looks like a political vendetta is this what this trial is going to be all about and we'll talk about if it is a vendetta and what kind of legitimacy does it have go ahead or the most legitimate institution in egypt right now is the judiciary they were able to go through a full trial an appeals process to take on hosni mubarak for the crimes that he allegedly committed during the two thousand and eleven uprising and now you see the crimes of the muslim brotherhood being put on trial and if they are found guilty there may be an appeals process there may be another acquittal well we really have to understand each of today's on the backdrop of the political process and reformation that's going on. by the military backed provisional government is
a sagging economy a weakening tours a ministry terrorism being strewn throughout the sinai peninsula and on the backdrop of all these issues egypt has to be able to stand firm not just within its own political influx which is currently going on but also in its relations with the rest of its neighbors in the region and around the world but while mohamed morsi may be the centerpiece for judicial joyous prudence right now in egypt but this must be taken within the context as the previous speaker had said within the provision of the new government and also within the in the content well known but a great one for trial is going on it's already started ok i think you know maybe it should have been different but we've already started this game here and greg i would go back to you i mean this judiciary that you're talking about was at war with morsi during the entire time he was in office before he was ousted so do you have still confidence in the judiciary when you had a force that was appointed by the former president i mean i don't see that they got
along very well there's no reason to believe they're going to get along very well now. within the context where the judiciary is an independent situation of course from this the government we have to take in the context is that to do just that put hosni mubarak on trial is now putting another former president on trial and the fact is is that the individuals who are part of that establishment or not swaying to any political allegiance no one makes a tough week or of the will see c. or any of the other political powers outlaw if the judiciary what they are doing is showing that they have independence as was done in the portside massacre during the fourteen death sentences that they were given out there in the last football ok the ultra conflict that took place about a year ago ok so that they have whatever or what is the security forces that killed protesters since the coup are they being put on trial is very much indeed investigation into that there are there are. beliefs that.
or hopes that morsi should be getting a fair trial now. with the military being in this situation it's not helping the military the military needs to go back to the actual job that the military should should be doing which is protecting the nation from any external enemies now i don't actually see. every season for why we are speeding to go through the struggle barak it took us eight months to put him on trial we could have waited for for a couple of more months until a newly elected government would be in and power. i honestly believe that whatever happened yesterday is just adding more to the fuel of the follow ization that is happening in egypt. this is taking us away from what needs to happen which is. the asian and going through a transitional justice. which which is strongly needed at this point to great you
know ever since you know the fall of mubarak we had a number of elections in egypt and the result kept being the same and you know what that result is i mean how do you square the circle you want to have a digital fairy but you don't want to have a democracy even if you don't like the outcomes you don't you don't accept them and then you turn to the military to overturn it i mean that's a cul de sac for any kind of society moving towards democracy isn't it it's not when the democratically elected forces and people who they put in power abuse democratic institutions we saw president morsi suspend the constitution we saw him try to take absolute rule and power away from the military we saw him fired on tali and put all sisi in place and he essentially went against any constitution that was being drafted and in doing so he was trying to empower his majority that was in the lower house of parliament and eventually he would try to maintain absolute power just because a political party uses democracy as a way to get elected does not mean that they have the authority to absolve them of
credit institutions once they are in power and that's why the july. third coup took place there's a certain marker which goes in terms at least your trial democrat leadership quality cooed that's progress there if i go back to washington so do you think that the egyptian military is just going to crowd out the political field because apparently there's going to be an election and i think we all know who is going to be elected and he may be the only candidate to run are you asking my personal opinion pete go ahead yeah i don't i don't think i don't think jenaveve for the i.c.c. should draw and the upcoming presidential election i think he is strongly needed as a military general he is strongly needed as somebody who can defend this country from. any anything that might damage the political and the democratic process. again this should be and you know then the day it is the decision of the
direction people if the i.c.c. wants to run he may or may resign from his post and join the political arena and the people will decide who would be the next president but i'm saying my personal opinion i think the country needs a more to be the head of this military greg you think the military in egypt is a big country and a big country it's very diverse and it's very very divided great can the military bring democracy to egypt i think they can do they show that they were able to bring democracy in the first round unfortunately those who were elected decided to abuse democracy and around this time i think they will have learned from the inability of certain forces within religion and politics and having the sort of cross divide between islam ism and political islam being in within the egyptian parliament in the egyptian presidency that the new constitution and the drafting maybe of the third time to actually get it right so you think that islamic party should be
banned from the political process in egypt. it's not what i think it's within the church and people think but what are you going to exhort now reporting i know there's no white a few protesters out there for the ousted president i mean what this trial is showing is the great the great divisions within the country here you still have support maybe not a majority but it's still significant so do you how do you feel about that in washington what is the role of political islam in the political process now is going to be completely shut out and i'm looking at the muslim brotherhood here. i think i think it will it will not benefit liberals to to keep. away from the political scene it gives them more sympathy it gives the most more support i honestly believe that the muslim brotherhood they have lost most of their grassroots most of the support during that one year of of the ruling of mohamed morsi because the they were placed under the test and they did not deliver so
bringing. stomach parties on top you know on the table having them participate in the political scene is not a bad think actually it it works out well or it worked out well for four for the liberal voices during that last year because you just can't. speak with the religion or with the name of god for for for longer you may you may win one election with that but it's not it's not going to deliver jobs to people it's not going to deliver. food and shelter it you know people now in egypt the realize that voting for that i politician who gives the who who may provide the better policies is what they will go for but you know keeping them and keep keeping islamic groups in the dark and allowing them participate in the
welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the political turmoil in egypt and the trial of mohamed morsi. ok great i have to go back to you in pittsburgh we just heard at the end of a first part of the program here about the nature of political islam in the democratic party process does it worry you more than that but the the brotherhood won't participate any longer in the political process and you know they've been there for decades and they they thrived under a dictatorship maybe that's what's going to happen now if they're excluded from the political process in the future because there's every likelihood that's going to be the case. right but the muslim brotherhood since its inception was always sort of a pressure valve to allow the regime regardless of if it was at the beginning of the egyptian republic or until today when we see the army once again having oversight over the provisional government to allow the forces in power the sort of
actors in the corner of pressure valve to be able to control what was going on on the street you saw that the muslim brotherhood besides its political prowess also ran extensive social welfare networks and religious institutions that didn't just provide handouts to the needy but had educational systems their own institutions for political indoctrination and eventually as the previous speaker said when they get the power that's when the true challenge affects them now if we have the muslim brotherhood outlawed as a movement which is what is currently on track to happen in egypt it's not going to be because of their political positions it will be because of the violence that they incited during the july uprising that took place against president morsi and also with the subsequent aftermaths of the outside the red mosque and some of the other violent incidents that they were actually if i go to washington it what about the violence that the regime commits against protesters it seems very one sided at this point you know it is actually and you know egypt is taking its
very first and strong steps towards democracy in the last three years we saw two ex presidents being you know accountable for their. decisions and for what they did to do the gyptian people but we still have a lot of questions on whether every institution in egypt will be questioned or will be accounted you know accountable for for their actions does that include the military and those that i don't salute the military because mubarak was thrown under a bus by the military you could only want him out of you know the s. and l. is the military that threw him under a bus they decided to get rid of him not the people protesting against him this is what i'm getting at i mean accountability i mean i find it really interesting is you have egyptian liberals where their voices right now are they behind the tanks. well i mean i will not go as far as saying that they are behind the tanks but i
would say that every institution in egypt should be should be held accountable including the military nobody is above the law and ever since the twenty fifth of january revolution. the rules has been set and you cannot think that you are above the law you cannot think that people will not judge you one day now but isn't a military man when he says it isn't the military acting that way right now just last week we have the military saying terry is very good saying that there should be no public criticism of the military in egypt i mean counted billet this is going to go well that's not and that will not settle well with gyptian perhaps it you know it may it may appear that it sells well with them now but with the with and with the months. you would promise you that it's not going to continue people cannot go back to egypt will not go back to to the dark days where where we could
not speak up or where we could not. question the leader of our country now this is again brings us to whether the military wants to play the political role or not because being being you know in the political role in egypt it's like being on the hot seat people will judge you people will question you people will hold you accountable i don't i don't want the military to be in this place that's why i'm always calling for speeding up the process handing over to an elected government this will will. save or or will hold the in danger of of having the military interfering in the political arena great how confident are you that we just heard i think you can still want to go backwards they don't want to go back to living under dictatorships ok maybe you're both right this is a transition but you know that the recent past doesn't bode well for the future ok
because once you have power what is it you know the appetite comes with the eating do you think the military is going to let go and number two can they deliver on all the things that you mentioned earlier in the program like unemployment jobs food inflation energy etc etc can they do that are they good at it or are they should should they just be in the barracks protecting the nation's borders. in the first round of the egyptian revolution we saw a ton tawi the former defense minister take over for the supreme council of armed forces we saw morsi elected and then we saw tonto he fired by morsi and put into an adversarial position afterwards in this next round we saw morsi abuse his power as mubarak has abused his but there are several key differences of how the military is involved with this regime versus how it was involved with the mubarak regime and the previous regime under mubarak most of brotherhood members and dissidents were put under military trials they were locked away in dark prisons and there was no
knowledge of where they were being held and the trial process right now for morsi we know what prison he's in he's received to foreign delegations of foreign dignitaries visiting him and it's also been allowed familial visits so just in the way that the trial is being conducted between mubarak and morsi well it's a stark difference is that they would side a second question about public relations that's all is it public relations to for washington no it's not public relations whatsoever if the army was interested in maintaining power and we saw that their public relations with washington didn't work out since the aide was suspended but going back to that point of whether which is the public relations coup they could have simply put him behind all tora prison with the military tribunals this time as he was previously said and for the wadi not to imprison the outbreak and then afterwards seeing that he would go into a dark hole never to be heard from again ok it's not the right that it's going to rely on in the issue of aid was brought up here and i think this is why the trial
is to show that the egyptians are on the right path quote unquote as we heard from secretary of state kerry. if i go back to washington here what about aid from washington and let's talk about the aid that egypt is getting now from gulf countries particularly saudi arabia that now the one to end cairo has a as a comfort zone because if washington wants to play politics and i think all three was to be washington's on a very deep horrible job in dealing with the situation in egypt but you know the egyptians can leadership can just turn to saudi arabia for a blank check i mean that's pretty nice for the military. well let's take it step by step pete first i don't really think that the u.s. has any. effects whatsoever in whatever goes on in egypt after the twenty fifth of january it's the egyptian people who are deciding so unlike what people in the opposition may claim that the
u.s. is backing morsi you know we used to hear liberals saying that when was he was in power and now we hear people from from the muslim brotherhood claiming that the u.s. is backing in c.c.m. backing the military i honestly believe that the u.s. . did not. support any president after mubarak or any egyptian leader after mubarak ever since the twenty fifth of january the u.s. had been just playing the role of the watcher the viewer. perhaps this is a missionary i mean larry that is a requirement you had let me go back to greg i mean israel and saudi arabia are very i mean very keen on this regime in cairo right now would you agree or disagree with that. i would say that their position regardless of the relevancy towards what's going on in cairo right now is positive i mean saudi arabia and israel two separate sections are probably at their best relations with egypt now
since july third the amount of security cooperation that's going on between israel and egypt is unbelievable according to what's going on with the shutdown on hamas right now and the saudi financing of the current regime is really proving to be the backbone of keeping the egyptian economy afloat but the reason why they're doing that is not really they're not in a new energy and mistakenly interested in egyptian democracy though is it what the people want because saudi arabia and israel prefer to deal with dictators in egypt it's been their tradition it's worked out well for them that's that's that's completely and correct mohamed mohamed morsi the go she aided the ceasefire by himself between hamas and israel a democratically elected president of egypt though she did the ceasefire between both two opposing forces one he was allied with the islamist hamas and what israel that he saw was in his best benefit to have peace between those two movements only three weeks after he negotiated that cease fire did he abuse his democratic
privileges by absolving the constitution and trying to take absolute power that's where his downfall began ok let's go to washington with that justify the coup then to justify the removal of morsy from power actually i had a question for for crack and you know does find it interesting that. you know there are national newspapers egyptian national newspapers that the the about every day on the front page of the newspaper. the claim that the israel is still backing. the muslim brotherhood another not the other way around so the current government the claim it's it's the other way around it's not it's not that sort of this is backing this current government it's it's backing mohamed morsi and backing the muslim brotherhood. greg that was addressed to you if you want to react to that that's completely. sure that's completely false we just we just saw the visit of secretary kerry to cairo and in the discussions that he was having there was how
can the egyptian government the provisional government that's in power right now help the palestinians and the israelis move closer to the peace agreement through the negotiations that are going on right now any suggestion that israel backs the muslim brotherhood ran government over its natural partners in the egyptian liberal opposition and the military opposition the military among smoke and the military at the military who they often work with on the borders is preposterous sorry gentlemen we've run out of time there a complete i don't think anything else way in washington and in pittsburgh and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. these.
are you willing to engage yourself in a debate when you would be pressing not only of war. but. for the abolishment of those punishments and say united arab emirates. what their own situation here. easiest to solve what the countries that you mentioned there it's an even bigger problem and i would be a. union right to consume what you want so long as it isn't so this is actually a bigger issue and then kind of. have over my own body. wealthy british style the sun holds.
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