hello and welcome to worlds apart the recent rapprochement between iran and the united states may potentially put to rest one of the most toxic and it is in more than geopolitics a possibility that would arguably benefit many peace loving nations. but not israel a country that seems to be increasingly cost of a living under what it calls an existential threat why is the spectral war sweeter than big chance of peace while to discuss that i'm now joined by ronen bergman an israeli investigative journalist mr bergman thank you very much for your time thank you for inviting me there is a very old ancient jewish proverb about a bad peace being better than a good war but it seems that for israel the state of best peace has become so familiar so confortable that these really leader should simply contest for to lose

iran as an anime they seem to be very bad on keeping the. animosity going why is that. every time it is released invited to be interviewed good outside of israel it is usually assumed as if he is representing the stance of the country's government so let me start and say i'm not representing benjamin that i'm you know i will try maybe to reflect what i consider to be the mindset of the israelis and absolutely in leadership to your question. i'm not sure that the israeli leadership is so keen to have you run as an enemy. if you're trying to maybe two israelis looking israelis looking for any means even in places. what i'm thinking is that israel to some extent is the sort of a post traumatic country popular. post traumatic nation. a nation

suffered from the holocaust suffered from a world that would not listen to the words of the nazi regime in. the world will hear what we really leadership has said about be about israel what they call the how are you near the zionist entity and the leadership in iran including mr rouhani some years ago including mainly the supreme leader ali khamenei has called for the destruction of israel and there is no dispute between all intelligence services including the russian s.v.r. when speaking off record that iran is trying to obtain nuclear military capability iran cannot justify its immense nuclear build up by trying to create energy they don't need mr bergman i don't think iran all of this explanation or that justification to israel or indeed any other country for that matter and let me just

mention that while israeli history was indeed very traumatic it's by far it's not the only country that have very painful experience throughout history but coming back specifically to the talks if we look at the details of the deal that were under discussion in geneva if you believe diplomatic sources it was really the first time in many many years when diplomats were able to transcend this blame game and to finally discuss some specific proposals more concretely they were discussing the possibility of iran's halting medium grade enrichment in return for some. for lifting some secondary sanctions and yet when the details of that deal were leaked to the media badgeman netanyahu israeli prime minister took the stand and here's how he described that deal let's have. listen i'm just down the iranians

are walking around very satisfied in geneva as well they should be because they got everything and paid nothing everything they wanted they wanted relief of sanctions after years of a grueling sanctions regime they got that they're paying nothing because they're not reducing in any way their nuclear. enrichment capability so you're on and got the deal of the century. and the international community got a bad deal this is a very bad deal now iran got a deal of the century and the international community got a very very bad deal and yet if we look at the details that are under discussion it's not just that netanyahu is being over the top he's simply being hysterical and that may be in line with your earlier argument that israel is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder but isn't that ultimately the the constant israeli style to throw

a temper tantrum every time when any chance of there in a realistic progress with regards to iran is on the table. leave it to you and your expect eternal the mental situation of the israeli prime minister i would say the two moping in the fact that the superpowers and the iran are sitting around a negotiation table in a different atmosphere before is extremely positive. trying to be confident that the international community is not going to be misled by iran just trying to stall time gain more time in order to advance its nuclear project before signing a new treaty in the time being we haven't seen any deal yet being struck between the two parties know that the americans now are charging the rain and snow the israelis are charging being the remains in. basically damaging the current

negotiations and reaching nothing. was wrong there was no deal nothing was reached yet well but if you talk to the american officials and many other officials who took part in those negotiations they clearly put the blame not only on the israelis and the netanyahu as efforts to sabotage the deal publicly but also on the. francesa her side it's that down but i wonder if he if israel had its way what would be the ideal scenario in your view for it for natalie after the israeli government the administration the intelligence community corporate in quite closely with the united states have drawn very clear rules to what is seen as a minimal demands from israel and this is the complete complete disembarkation the disassemble meant off of the secret enrichment site in for doon in the city the

holy city of course and just to remind you this is a site that iran has built without the permission or the knowledge of the international community of the united states and united nations against the nonproliferation treaty in breach of everything that iran has signed and this was risk discovered only thanks to the intelligence effort of the british government the u.s. cia and is really my son so it's a cause for the complete this assembling of this for do it end the very strict scrutiny over all be your clear sites of iran including perch in this secret side the iranians have not yet in the last ten years let the u.n. inspectors go in the complete stop of enrichment to nineteen point seven percent the shipment of everything that was already enriched of this quality to russia and the other country that is willing to go and the very clear maximum level

of enrichment to three point five percent now where is the problem the problem is that iran will never agree to this these minimal demands from from israel because iran would see this as a breach of its sovereign right to enrich uranium under the n.p.t. mr bergman when you were asked talking about the construction of this facility for a deal you mentioned that it was constructed against the. international norms and so on but according to the amputee it iran has to notify the international community within six months of launching the facility so all these claims about that facility being against international law or he came to national or to then to buy be ready and mis information well i don't want them by need these really mean it wasn't for me i mean we we are. not do not box i do not but it is really one there was an n.p.t. the clear ration very harsh very strong against the establishment the secret

establishment over of the for do so. nation the european community the united states barack obama who broke the news about the existence of this i do not listen to this release iran violated international law so many times iran was declared in breach of the n.p.t. there are still remaining questions but the fact that there are questions doesn't mean that they are in violation i think you cannot claim that simply because there are some questions unanswered that they are there being right or were in violation of the treaty and in fact there have been on a. run for her if a corporation with the organization as far as i know it is not over this is not true while the chiefs even even muhammadu bar the former chief who is very mild towards iran have said repeatedly that iran is not fulfilling the n.p.t. let me switch gears a little bit one of the most quoted phrases in geopolitics these days is the one

attributed to mahmoud ahmadinejad about supposedly why of pain israel of the map and we know that that phrase was taken out of context he was mistranslated and yet it is these really officials that quotes him a lot more often than any on there you are being propaganda we don't know look how much you know about iranian history. you know why. i don't quite a lot believe me well you have you have just quoted two main lies that are being spread by iranian propaganda look i think that israel. has quite a lot of blame in this war propaganda and i can say something about israeli propaganda but iranian propaganda for example trying to undermine the declaration of mahmoud othman did a job for the destruction of israel for the destruction of the zionist entity as he

nickname is for denouncing or supporting of suicide terrorism he's supported publicly and sent his troops and his money well suicide terrorists are supported all over the world including by israel including by the united states so it's not that specific to only tehran unfortunately you you mahmoud ahmadinejad have denied the holocaust you support his denial of the holocaust as well or you claim i think it's not easy of holocaust has no relation to the nuclear issue i don't see why we have to constantly lump them together the fact that he denies the fact that germany was trying to waste over. really held in are just run by why why why why even discuss his proposal oksana but i didn't say anything about whether you called it if i can ask you a question even relation to that because this phrase about wiping israel off the map you know it's it is used a lot by israeli officials to justify supposedly the existential threat that

they're they're facing and i sometimes feel feel that you know what there didn't if you're as old as you seem david you are certain iranian program. was nothing less than absolutely exorbitant demands that you just quoted that no other country would average agree to. i wonder why i couldn't israel cut its appetite a little bit and suggest something a little bit more constructive than a total hold to any nuclear program whatsoever let me give you the facts the facts are that the european union revolutionary guard the ministry of information first. secretly and then publicly. supports hamas which is recognized as a terrorist organization all over the world in russia as well supported the palestinian islamic jihad and supporters by law in lebanon this is fact number one

fact number two iran has tried to develop nuclear weapons this is agreed by all intelligence services in the world we are three can you cite the intelligence agencies who agree on that the american cia the friend the british m i six and m i five the german b. and d. and their russian s.v. are they all agree on that that's not true that's simply not shown this is true i don't know how many sources you have within the sphere but i can see this is the largest source as a result of this a policy bible cia and all the intelligence agencies that the mansion and they simply say that at this point of time there is no proof that iraq has attempted to divert its nuclear program for weapons to weaponization but if you believe that that is a statement of fact please continue your misquoting and i'll give you the luxury of enjoying the fact that you just don't want this we're going to silence the last

innocent little girls and sorting this by purpose and fact number three that the leadership of iran throughout the years and there are numerous publications and statement by do leaders of iran from ayatollah khomeini to all the other main leaders including the so-called moderate rafsanjani that calls publicly for the destruction of israel and do not acknowledge the right of the jewish people have a state now these are the facts the facts remain there i think that israelis have at least the right to fear that the same iran who is funding publicly without denying funding terrorists there are many states that support terrorist. the united states for example supports terrorism in syria and their hundreds of thousands of people now have been killed as a result of the support for terrorist activity the united so supporting terrorism

in in russia so yes a reason you must report is that the united states the previous administration supported chechen terrorism in russia indeed it's part of public record but again let's keep our attention on iran you mentioned many leaders who were indeed very bellicose in their rhetoric towards israel but there is now a new leader in teheran and that new new leader has a somewhat more conciliatory tone and it seems that decision makers in washington as well seem to see some sort of rare possibility for a breakthrough with iran and they seem to be the most frustrated about the public statements by netanyahu i wonder how how strong do you think this disagreement the current disagreement between the united states and israel on the issue of arrive really is i think serious and i think that prime minister benjamin netanyahu has made the mistake with going public with his criticism over this negotiation i think

that israel should have supported the negotiation between the united states and the international community and iran i think that benjamin it and you know has made a mistake and we see a real crisis between the countries that with me that will become more and more severe when we get close to be a legit good deal between iran and the superposed mr bergman we have to take a short break now but when we come back as democratic and stake a more sober look at their relationship with israel there seems to be a new on likely union in the making the one between israel and saudi arabia what will come of it that's coming up in a few moments on worlds apart. margy

dot com is launching a special project to mark the appalling scale of violence in iraq. we want you to know. exactly what happened that day i don't know but a woman killed. piers lakers when i got arrested for. for a crime i did not do. we have numerous cases where police officers lie about polygraph results. people to consent to the police officers don't beat people anymore i mean it just doesn't happen really. in the course of interrogation why because there's been this is like meant no because the psychological techniques are

more effective in obtaining confessions than physical abuse and they were taking they could do what they wanted they can say what they wanted and there was no evidence of what they did or what they said. welcome back to worlds apart where we are discussing israeli athletes to undermine international talks and the iranian nuclear issue with investigative journalist ron and bergman mr bergman i want to come back to the statement by benjamin and to me after that we played earlier and in that statement he also are surveyed that israel was not. alone in rejecting the the proposed geneva deal let's listen to what he had to say. israel utterly reject it and what i'm saying is shared by many many in the regions whether or not they express it publicly. now as we all know israel

doesn't really have many allies in the region. possibly with one notable and very curious exception and that is saudi arabia saudi arabia that also sees iran as an enemy and a country that also seems to experience at this current moment some difficulties with washington what do you what do you make of these ones and imaginable union dispute the fact that israel has only one alone in the area which share the same set of interests i think that most of the countries in the middle east share the same sort of interest with israel they all fear islamic terrorism the forms of hamas islamic jihad they all despise the countries yemen syria of president assad most of all the fear in islamic shiite extreme state like iran holding a nuclear weapon if you go interview the wiki leaks cables that were published just

two years ago you'll see transcripts of meetings between rulers of gold gulf states and emirate countries where they called the americans to strike iran when they see very favorably a possible aerial strike from israel on only iran that's exactly my point that it is goal state goal staved that primarily support israel the same goal states that if you look at that media if you look at what is being published in saudi arabia what is being sad and sarah saudi arabia in mosques you know the extent of vitriol against israel is simply a parallel to you would never hear anything of this sort even in iran so i wonder why do you think this unlikely you. and really emerged i think some of that you view the situation a very superficial way indeed overtly there are a lot of states who support and those really resolutions in the united nation and

publicly condemned israel but under the publics read the conduct and in and intimate intelligence cooperation and operational cooperation with israel we're not talking just about saudi arabia we talk about egypt we're talking about jordan with okuma many gulf states and iran before the arena for khomeini so israel has formed secret allies with countries that publicly support the end the israeli line but covered really support not israel but the same set of of interest and without disclosing military and intelligence secrets i would say that many of the operations including sassoon nations that were conducted against you reigning in and. jihadi star gets in the last ten years by israeli mossad we're not so it's assessed successful if it was not with the help of many arab countries in the middle east that help israel conducting this not because they like israel but

because they share the same sort of of enemy and the same sort of interest mr bergman it's interesting that you mentioned that this secret operation between israel and other countries because we often oftentimes hear that israel is supposedly the only democracy in the middle east and yet all that pro israeli views that you have expressed they may be shared only by intelligence community because if you look at any public opinion poll in the region the extent of anti israel attitudes is not just on the rise it's among the highest in the world and this very negative sentiment is no longer constrained to the region itself it's really spreading there around the world do you think that israel is now risking becoming a pariah state well i'm. fortunately for the first time in this lovely bible in conversation accent i'm afraid that i'm almost close to agree with you i think that the numbers that the measurement that you describe are

a bit exaggerated but indeed with the continuation of the dispute between israel and the palestinian people we see a major back to your ration in the international stand of israel and there is a gap a growing gap between as i described before an intimate intelligence operational and political cooperation behind the scenes of governments and administration in the middle east that see the the interest in the same way and the public growing hatred towards israel. and it is not limited unfortunately only to the middle east and indeed israel is getting the ear to the same stand of the. pariah state of the lepers regime of the apartheid in south africa in one thousand until one thousand nine hundred two if the palestinian story the palestinian dispute the palestinian. wish to have their own state is not solved in the near

future i'm afraid that we are going to see the continuation of this harming process . hopefully the leadership of israel would understand soon enough that israel cannot prolong cannot continue hold the toy the territories and should let the palestinians build their own national country on national state by israel hopefully it will happen soon let me ask you the final question bajan anatomy after has been a warning to the world of the of the grave danger and the one thing from iran for almost twenty years almost as long as iranians have been railing against the suppose it plagues of zionism yet now it's. seems that with the election of any iran has changed its tune or at least toned down its bellicose rhetoric what do you think that a chances of

a similar and change of leadership similar change or far rather rank and tel aviv i mean what are the chances of electing a reformist leader in israel and when i say reformist i mean first and foremost on the issue of iran. i don't think that i would phrase the question in this way but i do but i can i can say that if iran. would give the world not just israel but worked in enough during team guarantees and safeguards that it is not trying to develop nuclear weapons if iran would be full disclosure of information and will not be caught in more immobilize to the international community and if you run cease to support jihadist movement in the middle east i think you will see a different tone coming from israel as you said we do hear different tones from iran there's no doubt about that where different tones mean different actions

and actions should be seen in in the field mr bergman how can we iran really do what you just sat it like they proposed they it is agreed to some moderate steps halting medium grade uranium enrichment in return for lifting some secondary sanctions day they agreed to make that first step but israel in the in the actions of your prime minister refused that so did you expect iran to do everything at once or would you see that in a more step by step fashion i know that iran is a masters of negotiations and i think that they should be very cautious we negotiate with them because they'll be. very good with that however from the if you want me to reflect the israeli point of view then do this release would like to see the end game if there are steps of. building trust measurement in the meantime

that's that's fine but how would this end this is the question that is being asked by the state but the government of israel will iran this is the site info to do when you run stop give a complete shutdown to every other facility except for minor facilities for the enrichment for three point five percent will iran give the un inspectors the right to visit pitchiness where they test the. the core of the warhead of the of the missile so if this is this is the end game and if this is reached i think israel will not even a stubborn right wing hawkish prime minister benjamin netanyahu will not he will not have any other choice but to align with the international community well mr bergman as far as i understand israel once it reached the finish line thing without even running the race and unfortunately this is all we have time for we have to

wrap up here thank you very much for your time and to our viewers if you like the shelter lease join us again same place same time here and will that part. so that on june sixteenth one thousand forty one we had a graduation party at school and the war broke out. the shops were always full of goods. in september

leningrad was blocked. one day mom went and saw that all the shelves were empty. in november they bombed the day of steel warehouses it was the main storage place for all the food in the city people eating the earth because it had small traces of sugar in it i tried to eat it as well but i couldn't. the third night that was incredibly heavy bombing. it was a direct hit on that very shelter and everyone was buried underneath. all of them with dead.

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margy dot com is launching a special project to mark the appalling scale of violence in iraq. we want you to know. it's very easy to end one ton about. the release the man that you're not prosecuting but still notched up twelve years as a terror of jail with the white house still failing to get it closed once and for all party reports from inside one of the world's most maligned prisons on the future and may face. a tax haven on the take britain spends millions of pounds to prop up their rocky outcrop while taxpayers at home are in the dark about who gets it and why also this hour. to be on the arrest in the outskirts of moscow police have been something down on the illegal immigration every friday they go in range of accommodation places of.