tv Boom Bust RT December 5, 2013 3:30pm-4:01pm EST
that's the way to solve the political crisis really is the way to get closer to this decision agreement was the european union you mentioned earlier the brutal use of force by the police and we've all seen the footage from kiev and acting everybody including president himself recognized that the use of force was excessive and as far as we understand the investigation is underway and before that investigation was event completed the chief of police have to step down so don't you think that in demanding nothing last then the resignation of the president himself the opposition is being a bit excessive in its demands. well as of the moment we have heard some words not too many wars and we have seen no actions at all so not a single police officer has been punished for it after this bloody saturday we have not seen the minister of internal affairs in the parliament he was afraid to come to see the m.p.'s we have not seen
a single senior officer stepping down so actually people are so angry as of the moment because in the parliament they expected that those who were responsible for this bloody massacre here in the on on my done would be promised that would be the first step to get closer to justice and we see we also know actions so it's seen i think for most of the people here and i was absolutely clear that the president's party of regions which did not vote. against the government share this responsibility with the police officers so everyone's the here and now understands that it's clearly it was clearly the president of ukraine who gave the orders and who have to who has to be responsible for what happens here now mr shift chunk of the word revolution is back in use in kiev these days and one thing that we learned from the arab revolutions over the past couple of years is that you know bloodshed can start with a couple of broken ribs and a few concussions but it can very quickly degenerate into people actually being
killed on the streets and compared to what we saw in egypt or syria thankfully the protests in the ukraine and even the police efforts to disperse that process while all of that were relatively civilized do you think the worst is now over have you any concerns that if those rallies continue that they could be real blood being spilled in here. well there is one think we should makes the events in kiev these days very different from the arab revolutions and it's about the peaceful. brought to us every ten or fifteen minutes every speaker who is on this station says to the to the people we're a peaceful gathering of citizens we're not going to attack government buildings and if you see anyone who who calls to go and attack the presence of mr nation or a different building that's someone who wants this revolution to be stopped so i
think it's this is what makes this ukrainian process very different from when the revolutions which we saw in the middle east what makes this event similar to the arab it's the anger that people have and it's the government was absolutely does not respond to what the citizens demanded of them well mr somebody who covered the arab revolutions extensively i can tell you that many of those revolutions started with peaceful rallies but from the very beginning there were some people some provocateurs within the crowd and what we now are hearing even for a western media is that there are people in key of who have been hurling rocks at the police people who have been using having machinery such as an excavator on the streets all of cave and there have been some autonomy to storm government buildings still count the opposition now guaranteed that people who have gathered behind your back will indeed abide by the law that the process will be carried out in peaceful
fashion i think i think you're referred to one specific episode which happened on sunday a couple of blocks away from this place next to the presence of mr nation so as of the moment it's absolutely clear that it was a broke a sion which was set up by the sort of this first of all there were there were no no one there were no protesters who were brought there by their position there was a small group of radical there was a small radical group which had nothing to do with the peaceful protests on my down second we know that most of them had the chance to go to to stay safe on the both sides of the police wall when. third that we went to the escalator and many people many people could see this huge excavator right in the center right next to the presence of mr think not a single car could enter downtown but there was this extra way to safely waiting for this crowd to fred because next to the presence of mr action there was a pile of stones prepared to that so i think their position was really did
something really good and important when we went there and pulled some people out of there and so that's the one think about what we saw here on sunday about eight hundred thousand people peacefully standing on them i don't can see in the crowd of that size. it successfully states peacefully here and if you if you go to the dancers now you see a very peaceful crowd of people to be fair to the president in a call which he himself can down the use of force by the police he called it excessive and he also called on the opposition to abide by the law and abide by the democratic procedure is that exist in any democratic country i want to play a sound bite from what he said and have you comment on that let's listen to what he had to say. if we want european standards we must do everything within the framework of the law and this is the principle of democracy. elections are coming
people will decide to have originated. so essentially what he's saying is that if you want to be democratic just be democratic doesn't he have a point he's a century asking you to either wait till next elections or wait until you have enough seats in the parliament to impeach him but as of as of now you don't have either of these opportunities. well we have heard a lot of words from mr and a caution this is the we have seen no actions i'm not sure you would be the best the best advocate for him but this man has done. this blood a set of the to punish those responsible once again not a single police officer was fired four days after after the events the minister internal affairs is hiding from the press and is quoting from the public the prime minister came to the to the parliament and and was there enough to to say that person is fine and what was the country so once again president and of course has
done nothing and i think from for every you create an inception it's a clear that he is complete the person responsible for this crisis that the country is is in and once again of a goal is a legitimate change of power i think no one here wants a civil war no one here wants a coup that we want a legitimate change of power if unocal which feels confident enough if he wants this gone through to get out of the crisis let's do an early presidential election but isn't it also the case that the opposition at this point doesn't have enough seats in the parliament tuesday's vote no confidence vote in the cabinet is one proof of that and on the top of that he simply don't know how many people feel the same sentiment that is expressed on my dime these days so why not wait just a year to see and to allow these you know legal procedure democratic procedure to take hold why do you why are you calling for
a preliminary election for early elections when certainly the full scope of your democratic procedure is haven't hasn't been exhausted by now. well i think we can start and academical discussion on whether people who clearly see that something terrible is happening to their country should wait for the next presidential or whatever election but i think it's not really worth what we need to discuss it as of the moment look look what you can see behind my back as of the moment you can see hundreds of thousands of people staying here it's the eleventh day of this was the protests as of the moment to millions of ukrainians our industries around the country and this think what we're what we're witnessing is an irreversible change it's an irreversible shift here in this country but mr this is exactly what my point st actions may provide for very dramatic footage but it's not an accurate measure of democratic aspirations to imagine democratic aspirations and
whether ukrainian people want what you what you're calling for you need to have elections but you have only here on til the next elections to why not wait. i think there are clear democratic tools which could help us find their way out of this political process first of all if we have the prosecutor general office which is capable of investigations that will tell us if we have responsible police officers who could quit their jobs that will help if we have a responsible government which can fire those officers who did this great things that will help finally if we're talking about the parliament the parliament could also do its part of the job but it's refused to do so today but once again every day that we don't know what to do in this in terms of procedures we get into more dangerous situation mr shift i heard some commentators compare the current events and key of to the orange revolution a couple of years ago and the most notable outcome of that revolution was of course the so-called prophet in a crowded forces with viktor yushchenko and yuliya tymoshenko and yet the ukrainian
people. after their coming to power. you know fairly quickly had a period of disenchantment and they were voted out of power so if the opposition manages to secure power once again what do you think should be done differently this time around to make sure that people's aspirations are indeed mad. well there is a lot of disappointment in politics and several times here and there is some disappointing in pro-democratic forces as well but once again if you think about the last parliamentary election these three. just which are in opposition got a majority of the vote votes in departed elections at the last presidential election unit tymoshenko lost and of course only three percent so we can say that it remains as a very competitive country in terms of politics and as of the moment is the polls clearly show that people people are not tebow is what's happening in the country
even before these events on the air around sixteen percent of the population support it what did the what you did his approval ratings went to historical low lowest even in the east of the country so i think it has as of the moment vast majority of ukrainians clearly want changes ok mr shanker we have to take a short break now but when we come back in western media accounts ukraine often comes across as more than they cinderella caught between the while many european fairy and the exploitive russian stepmother is a reality indeed so black and why that's coming out in a few moments on a well the part. this is the place that has been consecrated to god for almost a thousand of years people came here twenty some years ago to reestablish and last
a life on the silent. and people feel the love of christ for working. people say you can catch. something happens on this island that makes them return to it again and again they say the below saves them. join me james brown on a journey for the soul. only on a t. . quite often countries rich in natural resources are the poorest africa is a colony it's a colony of the big corporations it's a colony of someone's home leaders who are under the thumbs of the big corporations so they have to beg from the world bank's development of social programs goes to pay back debts whole country is drowning under the amount of debt that they did and
welcome back to worlds apart a rare discussing ukraine struggle for democracy and a better future event duration a prominent ukrainian journalist and politician mr shift russia has been accused of intimidating ukraine and you know coverage personally into submission and forcing ukraine to turn its back on a democratic dream why do you think moscow is being so mean to fellow ukrainians. i think russia and ukraine militarists have been very pragmatically they do want to
keep ukraine close they do want to see ukraine as part of the customs union so i think the division is very clear for me but i don't think that is going to change a lot of things here in the recruiting because the west majority of ukrainians do want to create to go to go to the closer ties with the european union and sooner or later it was this president who was a different president i think will for the clear perspective of the association with europe now i heard your interview on b.b.c. radio the other day and he said there quote just a couple of weeks we thought we were about to become one of the european nations and now we find ourselves under newly formed dictatorship in eastern europe something that you would expect in belarus or sometimes in russia now i'm not going to even argue with you whether russia constitutes a dictatorship i think that's a very far fetched statement. don't you think that democracy is a bit too complicated than which trade union or reach. agreement if you decide
and to align yourself with don't you think that you give too little credit to your country of forty five million people by reducing it to a simple or maybe a complicated but a single decision like that. i think you're perfectly right. with that and if you listen to the most of the speeches here on the on their way done especially in the very first of the way done it was really of. the european values and european practices if we're talking about this decision agreement is about the so two hundred of pages which do not mean changes right the way but for many years both the korean government and the korean opposition have been convinced in the ukrainians that this decision agreement will be a solution to many problems fighting corruption the rule of law democracy and human rights efficient economy prosperity all those things could be much easier to
reach with this decision agreement that's what was the government and the opposition have been saying for quite a long time so now with this with this turn towards stores russia did not just throw away this decision agreement she stalled peace this wonderful dream for most of the ukrainians most of them really believed the believed that we begin to build something of what we have never had here a successful democratic country but mr shand i know that you have a very long track record of being an advocate of human rights and speaking for media freedoms in your country and i'm sure you know that building democracy takes years and it is not after you neighbor is a failure crane whether it is russia or the european union but rather to the ukrainian people so what probs them even with you know annoyed graham and signed with the european union what really stops them from building all those liberties within that own borders oh if we're talking about his citizens look at the polls
clearly show the majority of the ukrainians do want to ukraine to sign this station agreement even before the recent events this number was more than sixty percent only about thirty percent wanted to create to join the customs sunni and so the. portion is clearly unfair of the union i think the ideal of building a successful ukraine without joining in the unions no matter where they sleep in union of the customs union is sometimes debated here in ukraine but i think it's absolutely gorgeous for most of the people. who fall of the situation in the economy and in geopolitics that it could be much easier in a close association with the european union. ok i would like to come back to this issue of russia's supposed intimidation the kremlin's position has been that this this dispute is all about economy it and that russia believes its economic interests will suffer if european goods will start sliding into europe into ukraine
rather and later into russia tax free i wonder if you think that russia could have protected its economic interests in some other way without apply i'm due process onto your crane was there any other way to go around this dispute. well. i find some of the economic arguments that you mention quite artificial and not that profound i think many people in ukraine feel that this pressure was not just about the economy it was pretty much about geopolitics and pretty much. absolutely mr schiewe but let me stay on the on the question do you believe that russia is good in its own right to protect its economy if it believes that this economy its market is being threatened by the possibility of here in european good coming into ukraine and later on. i think that to
russia perfectly says the right to act according to its national interests as long as it does not violate the international arrangements. russia has made because first of all we have. the framework of the a w t or world trade organization and there were some clear big issues that russia took including that if there were some problems with the partners inside of w two or there are some instruments to solve that then if you remember in ukraine when ukraine was giving away its nuclear arms there was a special treaty and russia was part of that which clearly said that russia is never going to use economic pressure in some other kinds of pressure to influence their transposition so many people in ukraine clearly clear see that russia russia went into the zone which was very close to relation ofis international obligations but once again it's not it's not just legal framework i think it's much more about
the way this pressure was put on the country so it was much more about the warden so i think many people here feel that it was a very hostile action towards ukraine well and what is it about the wording in the way this pressure was put on to ukraine because as far as fire is kremlin is concerned it was very straightforward about what will happen if you crane indeed decide to sign this association agreement and to the list of documents that you mentioned earlier i want to add the free trade agreement between russia and ukraine that clearly stipulates that russia is within its own right to withdraw from the agreement if the ukraine sides with signs any trade agreements with third parties so. when you say that russia violated some laws this is actually not substantiated at this point. but look i think not to go into very close legal debate which i'm ready for i'm prepared for but i think it's just part of the of the
situation part of the problem i think that both in russia and in ukraine there were there were more than enough people who were happy to exaggerate this conflict and to use the situation for both and to ukrainian or enter russian propaganda inside of the two countries so i think that clearly damage the relationship of the two countries if we want to think long term. we should find a proper solution for corporation of ukraine associated with the european union and russia and the think it's in the long term russian interests to predictable partner here in kiev well i think i would agree with you and one thing that russia and the european union definitely have in common is that they both want to have a prosperous and stable ukraine because if this crisis goes on all those people will go either you know ukrainian people will go either to russia or to the right painting union in search of jobs so i think neither russia nor the european union would be interested in that what do you think would be a compromise that would satisfy all three parties involved.
first of all those in russia who can hear us if you look at this madame you should clearly realize that it's not against russia and it's not against the russians and it's not against iran in the way from. seoul in the ukraine in problems the people here want to want their future as a good prosperous future for themselves so i think that for everyone in. brussels it's very important of to find a legitimate solution here for ukraine but mr there is one comparison go i am making rounds here in moscow and ukraine is being compared to a lady who on the one hand takes money from an older now gentleman but once to spend her time with you know. a handsome young man but sometimes you you really have to choose i mean you cannot have both and it seems that ukraine is what you're really saying is that you crane wants to see the on the on two stools here it wants
to have this free trade agreement with russia reach gives ukraine a lot of revenues but on the other hand it wants to associate itself both politically and economically with the european union don't you have to make your choices sometimes. absolutely you used quite a risky comparison and if you use in that kind of metaphors i think you should clearly separate the present existing ukrainian authorities which have been negotiated in a very embarrassing way was both their opinion the russian and ukrainian nation and i think if you think if you if you look at the least of these people behind me there is pressure is very clear and you're absolutely right it's about a clear choice between the post soviet world and between the and between the european model of society and we perfectly understand what we are talking about it's corruption of the post soviet walled and it's the rule of law for most of the congress of the european union is sniggler action of to human rights and civil
liberties in the post to world and it's a deep respect to human rights in the european union so yes you're absolutely right it's about the very clear choice and i think in these days this nation is really making it shows and i think there are there are many commentators now in moscow who believe that you know college has indeed shown himself as a very unpredictable and sometimes a very dangerous actor you know he spanned as you said so much time negotiating with the european union on the association agreement he made a u. turn very dramatic u. turn and at the very last moment he managed to put europe and russia at their logar had but. it did do you really think that portrayal of here on a college as as a russian muppet in the ukraine is really justified because this is the way this has this argument this dispute has been portrayed in western media that russia really wants to keep you know college in kiev which many would argue is not in
russia's best interests. well i think if you portray in the. brush and. brush. i think it would be to lose their rights the right way to understand him i think they're on the think what he really cares as a. moment is his personal interests it's. in the interests of his family of both in terms of his political influence and in terms of the economy and of running a business in ukraine once again i think it's personally and holds true responsibility . over the political crisis in ukraine that's the person who put the relationship between ukraine and russia into a very dangerous situation and that's the person who put the relationship between ukraine and their opinion into this where the future mass that we can see and so that's that's why going back to the beginning organization most of the ukrainians feel that this man should step down from his present position he's personally
responsible for this mess that the country is at the moment while i miss the tank unfortunately our only time will tell whether this is going to happen but we are out of five time right now i really appreciate your perspective and to our viewers if you like the show please join us again same place same time here on while the party. says the media leave us so we leave the media. by the same motions to. you for the visit the. questions that no one is asking with the guests that you deserve answers from. politic only on our team.
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coming up on our t.v. in california a group of alleged anonymous hackers are on trial for launching a cyber attack on pay pal this after the company refused to allow financial transactions that would support wiki leaks more in this case just ahead and get ready for the next evolution of the economy this time it's going digital bitcoin continues to skyrocket in value while its new rival white coin attempts to level the playing field more on the growth of crypto currency coming up and in detroit a federal judge has ruled that the city cannot file for bankruptcy now public workers worry over potential hits to their pensions is the city balancing its budget on the backs of work girth.