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tv   Worlds Apart With Oksana Boyko  RT  August 31, 2014 2:29am-3:01am EDT

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traveling to syria getting radicalized there and than becoming a security risk once they decide to come back home and that strikes me as a bit selfish because if they were just to stay in syria and five an unfriendly government of let's say bashar assad then radicalization is not really a problem i mean in fact the more radicalized there are the more likely they are to achieve this regime change goal and it's only when they want to come home but the british government sees it's as problematic doesn't approach strike you as a bit self-centered it's a good question but it's a very well it's a very complex and difficult one to answer in that sense i can i can fully appreciate the fact that way when we got young muslims traveling abroad for humanitarian purposes and helping out to alleviate the suffering of innocent women and children but another thing is getting involved in a jihad which is ok fair enough they want to go and hope. you know remove assad or the syrian free army or the rebels but through the process that as a there's
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a fear and we've seen through experience over the last you know year or two years that young men i mean look at this one that is no joined the isis group and has carried out a barbaric act of evil by beheading a reporter so these are these the fear is that well it's really you know was right in this time from a from a community perspective that young men or women are being drawn into that you know wanted to go and help alleviate the suffering there is the ultimate feel about. creating a huge sense of vulnerability for them being indoctrinated and radicalized to an extent where taken off somebodies head becomes the norm that was exactly my point that you know the u.k. government only sees a problem with that one an american is being killed but you know this same energy to congress may have been cutting off our behalf of syrian citizens for three years now and the big. government the american government never saw
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a problem with that in fact it was described as an act of you know how being the syrians to bring about their democracy and i think this is a sense of you know bringing the truth home when the truth gets told me it's a daunting fact and that's exactly my point is that when we've got young men and women from this part of the world from from you know what one would say the civilized part of the world however many people would differ with my opinion on that though when we got young men and women going across and carrying out the same kind of atrocities as others have been doing and then you know potentially coming back to this country with that kind of a mindset with that kind of you know of appreciation for human life that is a concern not just for the government i would say i would say as a concern for for for the muslim community others around now. this idea that you can somehow tame extremism or channel extremism to make it work in your interest is not really new i mean they receive play out in afghanistan with the support where they rejected in who later become al-qaeda in i think we see the also to some
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extent being played being used in libya and then later on syria reach you know produce these threat of isis and you know i don't want to blame be existence and threat strengthening of isis exclusively on western policies because it's extremely complicated issue but i would like to ask you to what extent do you think the american and british policies in the middle east have contributed to the creation of these indeed very terrifying terrorist groups. that's a good point and it's think the government the western governments of fully understood the policies have contributed significantly to the radicalization of young men and women around the world this is without a shadow over doubt i will confirm with that i would agree with that with some of the young men that we work with certainly are being radicalized because of western foreign policy power over there are a number of theories that they apply and adopt which are not always true
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significant issues with regards to conspiracy theories that this is a war and it's etc etc but certainly i would agree that western foreign policy has . contributed to the to the radicalization of thousands of many young men and women mr goodere you just mentioned the young. british muslims that you work with and i think when we talk about the threat of isis we need to consider that there are two very different groups of people fighting for a one group and this is i think a minority are you know those foreign born jihadi is that have been converted by those theories that you mentioned but the bulk of isis are iraqis or you know arabs locals who have been converted not so much by the theories but by how horrific reality realities of their daily existence i mean those are you know iraqi males in that twenty's in their thirty's who came of age during the first and second invasion of their country and i would like to ask you in what way do you think
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these two groups are different in terms of dire conviction in terms of the ferocity that they show in the battle for that ultimately in terms in terms of the techniques that could be used to bring them back into normal life from history you know in most things in islam from history we've learnt and we've got you know quotations and books to tell us that extremism will continue to rise from amongst the most things and we need to remove them as much as and over time their reason and of the. going away this group has no well these groups have no took not rise to another level they have not come forward with a very very barbaric and extreme version and interpretation of what they believe is you know islam and sharia totally totally wrong i mean but what they have done their work on was the hearts and minds on this is very important honest about these groups have understood and worked on the the hearts and minds of individuals across
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the world who see and perceive that western foreign powers you know are targeting muslims but also that muslim leaders you know from around the world are failing to respond under react to the problems that they're facing so they feel like they have to know rise up and build a momentum so what they have done they have a truck to be young men and women from across the globe to this new idea that they will now take forward and they will remove those leaders that are in the muslim communities that are not reacting and doing things what they should be doing well mr carty i agree with you you just used the word barbaric and there are a number of very strong points that the western media and in fact media all over the world are using to describe them they've been described as sadists and what have you i mean they've been described as beasts as no humans but tend to be also be asking what made them so cruel because we can all pretend that they are just a bunch of psychopaths but the bunch is so large that that would be statistically
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improbable something made those people so heartless one thing i have to have to explain this is very important to understand is that firstly islam does not allow this the text within islam do not allow this the teachings of islam do not allow this however we've been warned about these groups and how evil they were look the texts ascribed these to be the sons of the devil's dogs of how five for the main reason because they are so vile and so barbaric that's why they are described to be . like the dogs of how far i know that the way that they come across so romantic in that in their approach attracting many impressionable young men who want to or want to do something or are very angry don't forget they're working on the hearts and minds of young men and women who are very very emotional but also equally very very angry but mr cardew don't those people have. a reason to be angry and i'm not talking about islam here i'm talking about again be realities of their lives
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because i assume that those people even be. you know the most hard line of the jihadist i assume that they probably didn't have the easy stuff lives at i think that this is you know it was again proper haps of why that was waged in their own country back made them this way should we all account for that when i when i say under i mean don't forget there's i'm not the most of it was a perceptions out there in oh in amongst the social media the perceptions of our young men and women have about the west's attack on islam it being a crusade that you know that they need to understand with the face of the earth what's going on in gaza and you know in israel you know ongoing issues around not that the young men and women that i'm talking about very angry because they feel about them the muslim leaders and let them down this is the perception they feel the muslim leaders are working with western governments you know for the sake of oregon and revenues etcetera etcetera that is going on beyond control now that doesn't mean that you know there are not human beings or they can't be changed and
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i for one will say that anything can change within a young person with with the right kind of support however when they get to a point where taken off somebodies head. without batting an eyelid that's why i think that now we have to go back to our theological guidance where we are instructed to make lee no i can't say this i can promote this but i will just quote you one of us which says that if they rise from amongst you and should you be able to approach them. then attack them until they where ever you find them for they will continue to rise and be a cancer no this is a this is a text that we are warned about these kind of individuals and we need to remove them but mr carter isn't that also very convenient for the western sort of approach to these issues because we all know that violence begets violence and if you again assume this very militaristic very very violent approach to them i says that perhaps that's going to you know produce
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a whole new generation of jihad is because this again my point i come back to the same point is that many of them were radicalized not by the text i assume that the you know during the first and second iraq war people didn't have time to really study holy books i think they were radicalized by the killings and by the hunger by b. radicalism of war that they saw all around them absolutely and i for one minute don't disagree with you this is another thing that is driving these these are most many people talk about young men and women having a sense of belonging because they would be part of a network and most since it's what's been happening over time over a period in iraq in afghanistan in pakistan in somalia in palestine and gaza young men and women are being you know pushed to a point where they you know they feel that there's nothing else that can be done except committing acts of violence against what they see as the enemy or the perpetrator it's been it's look they've been doctored over time they've been
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watching images and today we see that what happens in a you know i want to go in iraq within twenty minutes the whole world knows about it so young men and women you know are exposed to that kind of indoctrination and are being radicalized as a result so for you know for sure you know foreign policy you know double standards certainly plays a part but mr cardew if you look at the latest research in violence it's essentially it's you know these old combination of nature versus nurture and nurture and sure some people are more prone to violence than others but. i think it's i mean. many scientists agree that it's primarily the environment or early trauma during the formative childhood heroes that turns people into heartless cruel individuals and if we look at what is happening in the middle east if we look at what is happening in north africa the social and economic environment is seems to be getting from bad to worse and you know there is a whole new generation of kids who have been exposed to to reflect to reflect things i wonder if that makes you hopeless in your afterwards to combat these
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violent extremists because it seems that the pool of potential jihadists is now wider than ever before it is a challenge and i agree that certainly this this poses a huge challenge to as when we look at a young man or a young female who's lost their parents or their whole family and i guess i would be they say in gaza who's you know well let's say the entire family consists of twenty five people have been blown to pieces by a bomb or a stray bomb that say you know they're not going to listen to reason they're not going to look at you know islam a text and you know and theological guidance on how to manage this they want revenge and we see young men and women who look at that and take it personally they were however you know it's not going to stop our efforts to changing men and women we it's a challenge indeed but when we talk about young men or women in this country who feel very very emotional and take it very personal we then you know this is where i would disagree with everybody who says he said with
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a theological problem i would say the unset to the problem is a theological approach so this is where theology comes into play but are you allowed to seek revenge because of this is a put you know this is all kind of the things that we can use the plan and we do and sometimes you know it takes longer and sometimes it's it's forever going on going and sometimes we know we have to accept that we will fail mystic i do have to take a very very short break here but when we come back the u.k. is about to introduce this sad of measures to combat religious extremism but is it an. that's coming up in a moment on the part. secret laboratory was able to build the world's most sophisticated robots which fortunately doesn't sound anything tim's mission to teach creation why it should
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care about humans. this is why you should care only. plane. load. this month show bush's transports gets a facelift and you can see the border we make the most of the sun in the. science flourishes in tomes and we check out some carlos a. technology some day here on r.g.p. we've done the future cover. of your c.v. this is our to see it more than the propaganda. it is the state sponsored rush hour today program just more likely to be announced right now and a lot of this. is just ridiculous not to answer to my question. johnny's not be part of their safety and sometimes their lives all over the world to bring
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people stories. again the channels don't want you to see and we told her. live. they get the. economic up and downs in the final months they belong to the new york sank night and the rest because i was doing the taking will be every week along the way. welcome back to well the part where we are discussing islamic extremism rick. a co-founder of the active change foundation now mr card you know when you speak
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about religious extremism you obviously speak from your own experience as somebody who back in two thousand and two went to afghanistan to fight on the side of the taliban against the. i assume that merican force is what made you change your mind look this is the whole wealth of experience has been won out one by me by going over there and coming back and you know being involved and working with individuals up you know about the idea of going there what works for me what helped me and i think it's a it's a blessing that i was where i was i was sent from god is that. going there and looking at the hypocrisy looking at the double standards and looking at the atrocities committed by you know a guy that and the taliban you know when we talk about innocent women and children being killed by western powers we also got a look at look example would be isis that killing thousands of innocent women and children and this is exactly what happened to me when i was faced with the taliban of a guy that they had no regard for human life this is one thing that might religion
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does not allow this within the un give me even more and luckily i managed to come back i am confident but young men and women are going into iraq or syria you know when they're exposed to the the that the lines and the hypocrisy they want to come back and suddenly at the moment there's no way for them to come back because they would they may be locked up and put away so that they to be a strategy to allow those ones who have seen the light let's say you know be exposed to the procrustean lies and want out we allow them a safe passage back well mr cardew i think this is a very interesting point that you mentioned this disregard for human life and i heard you say in one of the previous interviews that some young people perhaps young. you know young man young women tend to remand to size conspiracy theories and this is something that may draw them into war zones and i think that was perhaps true for al qaida who was spin our message really focused on the suffering of innocent civilians on the suffering of women and children but the i see this
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outreach program is very different they do the killing themselves and they're very open about it i mean they almost rabble in that balance why do you think they're still attractive to you know young man like. yourself i mean you said that this is something the violence turned you. you know turned you maybe you turned away from them but it seems that you know there is also enough young man and women who are attracted by these very brutality an excellent point and let me let me let me let me let me let me reply to that in this way. when i went to afghanistan there was no . no man that subscribed so to be the leaf and him to run the caliphate of the only one that was a local amir a local college was. mullah omar in this instance we have i will back a little bit about the who has no claim to be the color of the muslims and
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the time because in the time he's chosen this is syria now we go back to theological quote some theological guidance where we are told that there will be an army that will march with a black balance and the amongst them will rise leda now this is where our young men and women you know fail sadly because they are not fully aware of what religion and what theology says about this they believe that this person is the leader for the most in his in this time however. and they subscribe to their scribe to whatever he has to offer and be that killing will be that you know protecting women and children they see that they have to ascribe to him which whichever way it may be now whatever yes to often they will subscribe to that as well and sunday and. i will say this this is where the fadia the systematic failure of theologians emo arms in our country up and down the country a failing to refute the likes of a bucket about about the there they are and their silence is almost been explicit
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you know my argument is that we need to have the right kind of education and guidance for our young men and women otherwise they will continue to be recruited and brainwashed by individuals like i would by god the i will buckle those in the book of these of deranged men to individuals who are using theology and texts to recruit the you know the soul just well mr cardew you just made a number off. the logical back francis and that leads me to my next. question which is very very sensitive i understand that but i would still like to ask it you know this disregard for human life isn't it at least partially religious because if you believe in the afterlife if you believe that death is not final that. it's easy for you to believe that you are maybe even how being your victim by how to humor her escape this we could world i wonder if this mindset is at least partially
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responsible for the ease that these people. have when killing and dying for their cause absolutely this is all things. you know it may seem as if i'm i'm being a bit contradicting on my statements but when we talk about you know how young men and women get indoctrinated to the theology they have no understanding of their religion if they did they wouldn't even they wouldn't describe to people like i would but this as a bit of the we have many thousands and millions of people out not refute them however the small minority that are except in this they believe indeed that by ascribing to them by going out and killing muslims and even other muslims who disagree with them about that cleansing the earth and purifying a nation you know sadly they are being told this by people who you know the ostrov to isis and that and their ideology this is an ideology that has no grounding within islam you know however they take context and they take it out of context and
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they present it eloquently in arabic to many of our young men and women and that's why you know i'm saying again that theologians in this country and across the world we have a handful or very very very renowned scholars who are refuting davey you know the likes of isis and al qaeda however in our countries around europe there's not enough and these to be a lot of boys from our mosques who have the eyes and that is of our community they need to stand up on a friday on the pulpit i think to challenge the ideology of isis well but mr carter is it really fair to blame the community for not doing enough to combat these very violent ideology when your own government is very i would say soft and polite when it comes to saudi arabia the country that has invested billions in promoting and asked crabbing the salafi and what how bad he is all around it while no no you're getting into a very very sort of been a very unique debate and this can go on for ages i disagree with that i disagree
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with that look what hobby and solitary ideology is not an actual front. the only one is our refuting isis is coming from the salafist scholars in saudi arabia and some of the solid feet. scholars in this country i don't ascribe most of them but what i am saying here is a let's not get things confused people like that i'm jim showed real mo buckley mohammed and people like i would like a bit of the they came to be you know the one hobbyist salafist you know minded individuals however far from it the creepy quality it's ascribed to the evil ways of or the devil know. this is where it's important to look all government in this country is doing everything in its power to help our muslim communities and when you say that it's not fair to ascribe blame to the community i apologize for intervening here but you know we are all shocked by what happened to james foley by this execution but this is something that saudi arabia das on a regular basis decapitations they are openly prosecuting other religious groups so
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you know it's instead the world is so very hard to fight by the isis but they're very nonchalant about saudi arabia doing the same thing though that's capital punishment that's not going into war and taking off the head of another individual that's that's punishment for a crime we have the same kind of punishment in america by these an injection in saudi arabia it's about beheading you know i'm not going to say i agree with or disagree with it if someone is committed to an atrocious crime then he deserves to be punished with whatever the punishment from a country deals with no regard to be heading that does not come from islam there are there are quotations and if it takes about this and many many many i can call for a jihad to morrow by giving example of its theological quotes that date back centuries that say the son of no i'm going fight i say well this is your head mr here we are in the running of the out of time but i have to tell you that landing saudi arabia
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all of the hoax seems. while somewhat strange here at least to me but let me ask you the very very final question the british government the home secretary theresa may has suggested a number of anti-terrorist measures and. looting you know stripping some of the u.k. citizens have their passports in case they travel to syria or iraq and amber of other measures that all strike me as extremely domestically oriented it seems that what britain this trying to do here is to keep those you know jihadists and those radicalized individuals adebayo outside its borders rather than addressing the issue of violent jihad as at face value isn't again isn't this approach again a bit too self serving some of the measures that are being put forward and you know i mean suggestions are very very very very intense and very rigid going the way i think this is also like what you call a knee jerk reaction but i can understand you know that if people are going to go over and commit atrocities abroad and that stuns for everybody and for every other
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community as well not just muslims but if they didn't go out and so commit violent acts abroad then i think about section but if we put in place no stripping them of the nationalities of their passwords you know this maybe is maybe i'd be less but what i don't think is going to be released to be put in place however i welcome the fact that if somebody is coming back i would welcome an intervention some kind of assessment be made and if somebody can be helped i welcome that i would put myself forward to help the individual but i can understand the national security measures need to be taken seriously i understand that and i think every all would agree with that but can this problem of global jihad as more violent islamic extremism be really addressed without some countries the united states the united kingdom first changing their approach to foreign policy and changing the ease that they have been showing in intervening in muslim countries because that seems to be the root of the problem or at least one of the very effective mechanism that those
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people are using in converting. people to into their ranks point taken i understand you know i mean look every country has its own foreign policy its own interests but consideration. certainly needs to be made whenever america or the u.k. is going to go and you know. invest in something or you know you know. contribute to a force to a foreign policy initiative i don't think they need to consider the facts up and look if we're going to go into iraq we need to consider what the implications are going to be on the iraqi individual records originated in to be does not country likewise if we was to go to war with india to morrow don't we think about the indians of this computer are going to respond or react to everything has to be done in consideration in moderation so it's certainly a consideration to be made but also i as a british citizen understand that either in this country i was a british citizen and i understand that this british this country has its own interest in how its own policies but i would hope that the prime minister would be considerate of my emotions and my values and my beliefs as well as as well as you
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know the national interest of this country some of these policies seem to be you know a shot and different because all of those countries that the united states the united kingdom have intervened so far less than simply for noble reasons they now have a very very acute problem of a comic extremism but unfortunately we have to leave it there we have run out of time every we appreciate you being on the show and to our viewers please keep the conversation going on our twitter you tube and facebook pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here in a while the part. we think of why we think there are no. moral sand beaches.
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coconut palms gently swaying in the ocean breeze. in fact. while he has a deep dark little secret a secret the u.s. government would like you to know. we're all a. ball of. the ball i did it daily except she did ok good all will be able. to.
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judge would you like of all the scripture to back your heart led by the fact that you keep betty carlisle because first a few times even the some of the last which hybrid just getting these lunatics what up remember when saddam didn't three liberated that part of the iraqi army that is just what you want me or you can call me arms we are your back you could defend the guy just as i saw the dollar drop to go bob to bomb the box gave them a piece to make like say to make america safe again. do we speak your language anything about the will or not of the. news programs and documentaries and spanish what matters to you breaking news a little turn to defying goals can stories. you hear.
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that try all to spanish find out more visit eye eye to. ten russian soldiers detained after crossing the ukrainian border have been released and returned home. also this week a raise phase of a possible russian invasion while ukrainian troops say they are being left to die at the hands of anti-government forces plus. as the jihad is from islamic state continue their rampage through syria and iraq we look at the two pillars of the group's mind it's a flourishing black market economy and the media campaign that's attracting new recruits in dry.

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