so you have worked for more than half a century and the desired just published a transcript of its editorial meeting from i think it was nine hundred eighty two when the you all discuss the entry of a new party into the german parliament back then it was about the greens and the discussion was whether or not they should be considered legitimate political actors that question is pressing once again of it the parliamentary dabi of the alternative for germany what's your take on why the day belong in the german politics well listen they've been elected and they are a part of the german political system no and i hope we all hope that they will behave according to the rules of a parliamentary democracy but i know that many people also hope that they wouldn't make this victory and when we look around your of there are a number of far as that have already parties that are more last ideologically similar to you the a of d.

wasn't it to be naive or perhaps presumptuous for the germans to believe that they would somehow be different the fundamentally different from france or the now the lads that have seen similar political actors make that entry into the legitimate politics well let me first say i wouldn't talk about a victory you know. they posed twelve point six percent goes to thirteen percent which means eighty seven percent of the vote they did not get so i don't think this is the end of our democracy it's a stone in the shoe of our democracy that's a whole bunch you're right you're right of course germany is normalizing and thirteen percent sixteen percent eighteen percent is what the right wingers in holland in finland is denmark and sweden get. do get.

you may ask why didn't you have a right wing party in parliament if for well i think it is the memory. stick taters ship but no things normalizing and then of course like everybody in this age of globalization and mass immigration people fear for their own national identity if i may continue along the same lines because many analysts believe that this limited very limited as you pointed out success of the far right and some far left parties reflects the failure of the political mainstream to genuinely and effectively address some of those issues that you just mentioned that people get concerned about. like for example migration or the economic policies do you agree with the mainstream political mainstream has also itself to blame for these very limited success of

those political untouchables well listen the untouchables ok and the deplorable hillary clinton said no the point is of course that the refugee problem was a big issue but there were issues and especially you know it's a curious fact. that the right wing is strongest in the formerly communist parts of germany and that's one point the second point is sixty percent of their voters do not really agree with their racist positions. with their anti european is and with their end time muslim attitudes but they wanted to protest and tell them the mainstream parties that they've been neglected in east germany for instance it's depopulating it's.

in d. d. industrialized and so we the mainstream parties did not take care of people's concerns and i hope they will know ok mr zimmer one more thing i wanted to ask you about the style of this election campaign you mentioned the as in a fall back rather it died the a of d. all often espouse us and some of it if it is extremely ugly i mean even in russia reaches i think a more intolerant country compared to germany we don't get dot kind of sentiment expressed publicly but one thing that i also noticed was the very casual use of the word nats in the relation to the f.t. and whatever your opinion of them that transgressions don't rise to the level of the nazi crimes i don't think they could be any argument about these kind of blending of history and contemporary politics is extremely common these days we see

it in many countries in russia including in the united states but one would think that that least in germany they would be a taboo on those kinds of comparisons don't you think this is a bit too much comparing the ugly political opponent to a march i'll get here actor listen i agree with you and i i would say one thing. there are some nazis in the fifty. nine and. it's not the mass of the a fifty voters you can call them nazis. there are some people there the others who have real concerns we have to. take care of now that the issue of history i know it it is very politically charged particularly in germany and i think in all fairness the a of d. exploited but. their stance on the issue of national identity on the psni wouldn't

be asking traversal in any other country when they talk about the ride to be proud of the past or when they call on the german people to have courage to be germany what's wrong with that because germans germany's history should not be reduced to weild what you along should be this is true and it should not be reduced simply to the killing of six million jews. there are other centuries of german history which we can be proud of but you know saying that our culture of atonement oh remembrance of nuns nazi crimes is wrong that's too much but again i say this is not. the general attitude it's the attitude of some people in the. fifty which by the way is now

in the process of tearing itself apart exactly because of these questions now you mentioned before that there was a very interesting distribution of support for the particular political party and they got visibly a more support in is to germany it was i think the second most popular party in the east the most popular party in saxony what do you think reason this. say about joe many as a whole almost three decades after the reunification well i don't know you know as as far as they are against foreigners. the curious fact is. they've got just two point two percent of foreigners a troll they're protesting against something which is not a problem in their regions whereas. if he also fared very well along the bavarian austrian border that was the part of germany

were a million of refugees were swept in two thousand and fifteen so they they were protesting against the. rather unfortunate handling of this great inflow you know there there are many international values surveys which consistently show that post communist societies have different attitudes towards migration the l g b t movement abortion and many are there are social issues that make up the core off the liberal agenda and the question i wanted to ask you is whether you think the results of this vote may encourage germany and the european union as a whole to discuss those differences in values not only more openly but also on an equal footing without necessarily presuming that liberal values are by default so much more superior to the traditional values well i wouldn't wouldn't agree with

you if you say that traditional values are non clipper all values i think are liberal values the values we all honor and cherish mr summer not to get into an argument with you but many establishment parties. campaign not from the intellectual position not trying to. persuade waters why that positions are good or bad from social or into actual point of view but they complain from a psychological position they often shame people who disagree with them they it was the case by the way with hillary clinton and i think we also saw that in the in the british campaign when not grieving the deliberate position is somehow considered to be morally backward don't you think that they if this was also demonstrated in the german campaign although in a much more measured way wasn't there an arrogance on the part of their politicians

i don't think it was arrogance it was negligence they just did they recognized the problem but they didn't think it was. so explosive. but know they know and know they'll have to tackle the issues and to solve the problems. and there will be debate even if he had not made it into the blender stark there would be there will be much more debate then and during the era of the grand coalition well mr delmar we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. peacekeeping

when it was only about maintaining peace between states and an essentially symbolic value when you have militias when you have criminal groups. the symbol is not enough you need robust force. and with that with me you. know. it was but i guess kind of. for me a dump on a handwritten note here because i don't need to see.

where they are you won't get to see a good area for immigrants. we never really know for sure. but this has been a active area. that yourself. yes i. know but when i started i. welcome back to worlds apart with tales on their farm and i did change sheets of the german newspaper. letters on my just before we left with a break he said that even if the a of d.

didn't get into the bundestag there would have been some hard thinking on the part of the mainstream parties but it did and the question now is what to do with them or about them it is widely predicted that the a of do you will now be frozen out of any coalition negotiations do you think it's smart that when dad makes them even more resentful and more abrasively populace well i don't think they're ready to govern or even to participate in governing they have to. develop a program which is more than just aid speech and criticism they have to sort themselves out and i don't you know they got. ninety four out of seven hundred nine seats and i guess they're splitting up pretty soon and then we'll see

what their real decisions are and one more question i would like to ask you about political tactics is something that i notice that the social democrats did they almost immediately and as they day that they don't want to be in that in a call ition of if that america is christian democrats do. i intend to be in opposition do you think that decision is dictated by the party's only political self interest as opposed to the call man need to not allow the day of d. to become this sole magnet for discounters don't you think that this is actually a political tactic on their part no i think. they are deeply convinced that. having been partners of the grand coalition and not having been able to push through their views. they did push them through on many issues. they they just held a grand coalition and some home destroyed their profile and i

think you know. one can quarrel whether it's the right thing to even. say we won't talk to but i can see that they would say we have to. reset our program and profile and that spacetime in no position rather than in another grand coalition which will again. reduce our share in the next election well from what you're saying it looks like all members of the john political elite will have to somehow reinvent themselves and i think that applies also to angola merkel who for all practical purposes has easily security her for a fourth term as a child killer but many suggest that it may be the most challenging term as

a few yet she's asked with reinvigorating the european union project which essentially means keeping it in one piece while also addressing it's growing structural disbalance says do you think she can do it because many argued that those are two mutually exclusive tasks well the thing is we have two options. either. the christian democrats and the social and the. very in christian democrats plus the greens plus the. new the liberals who are back in parliament either they agree and that would be very difficult so i don't think we'll have a government before christmas simply because these will be very difficult.

negotiations either that either they agree or they'll go back to the voter which will make the results worse for everybody in addition to the responsibility before the german voters. germany obviously has a larger responsibility before the e.u. so let me ask my question again do you think germany with this new renewed mandate that angle america seems to have gotten for the new term as chancellor do you think she can address the problems of the european union and namely. preserving the unity but also addressing the structural. balances death threats and that the liberals. are very critical of president marcos. and it depends whether america manages in the negotiations with the liberal. to get them to agree to you know

a program to strengthen europe again along the lines suggested by mark quote my next question may may come across as disagreeable to your perhaps even bias but many here in russia believe that the ukrainian crisis was essentially an out of the grohl of the policy of building greater europe a europe that was conceptually exclusive off russia but tried to pull in. other former communist states not to perhaps as members but but as associates as it was in case of ukraine do you think there is still appetite for that in europe of building a greater your of that perhaps would be a larger than the e.u. itself but at the moment what i see is a great reluctance to enlarge europe and the at this time maybe in ten years time but at the moment we we are even reluctant to take in the balkan

countries so on ukraine i have always thought that it should be the bridge between western europe and russia. and we should never have forced a ukrainians to make a choice. now we do have the ukrainian crisis crimea is a huge problem i think. that's that will be interesting the liberals for instance. said that crimea we should look at it as a durable provides a really it and it should not be. an obstacle to a real dialogue with russia now i think that sounds also regret is also present here in russia even though i don't think the kremlin ever fully are

takeaways that i mean there certainly have been many points of no return in the ukrainian crisis and whatever you think about russia's actions for example i think . some of them at least are irreversible and. even if people wanted to go back obviously you cannot do that so the only the only choice remaining is either to preserve the status quo or try to move beyond that what do you think germany would be germany's position at this point of time what do you think what suited better to keep the station of what it is say in a state of a frozen calls like try to mediate the violence or indeed somehow try to overcome it well i think we should try to overcome it and we should try to unfreeze some of those frozen issues. you know i have a one question and i don't have an answer to it. mr putin

gave a pro rule european speech to the german parliament in two thousand and two five years later in two thousand and seven he gave a speech at the munich security conference which many people interpreted it as a declaration of a new code. more my question is what happened during those five years between two thousand and two and two thousand and seven and can we can we now try a reset well mr summers let me let me help you answer that question by asking another one because i know that you had to face a very harsh criticism for saying that russia had not only historic but also strategic and security imperatives to take crimea back and many russian thinkers go much further saying that spain full rapture was that it was extremely painful for russia russia still believes because of ukraine we still suffer a lot of pain

a lot because of fog what is happening in that country but the the argument is that whether or not. despite all the cost. the taking of crimea was essentially a preemption often much bigger conflict the argument is that if russia didn't show its teeth a time nato would have continued its encroachment and that's what eventually lead to even a bigger confrontation do you agree with that and do you actually think that nato has been stopped in its tracks towards russia now listen i. know the russian position as a historian and i've said so and i've been criticised for saying so i think of course. annexing. the crimea. contravened international law. as i

said it has a historical logic for it. but the point is. it was germany who stopped. the americans especially from bringing ukraine into nato. in two thousand and eight. we knew that. and i think that is still our position. that we we cannot push nato to the doorstep of. this o'mara i think you are you i mean here are clever enough and experience enough observer to know that you know positional that germany in two thousand and eight as much as it was appreciated in russia was not final push by a major generals by american politicians ever closer to the russian border was not

stalled back in two thousand and eight that she was not of the table and the would have passed a declaration wasn't very conclusive i mean it still left the door open and with all due respect i don't think that the german government was very forthright back in two thousand and thirteen two thousand and fourteen when the ukrainian events were under way i'm sure you can also imagine many other scenarios that the events would have taken place would have perhaps excluded the necessity off the crimean events you know i don't think in two thousand and eight we could do very much more than we did and just stop the process and it is now as we say in german to consumers seek it something in the future it is not very topical issue if the ukrainian problem could be settled according to the basic lines of the minsk agreement. then i think it would be much

easier to restart a real dialogue. and by a real dialogue i do not mean. every five or six months a two hour session in the nato russia council by a real dialogue i mean a process like the c.s.c. process in the seventy's and. a discussion about the future relationship of the european union with the eurasian union can i ask you one more on that that's going to be the last question and i want to make it specifically on the ukraine i don't mean it in a disparaging way but i think historically it's avodah and that ukraine has never been fully self-reliant it always attached itself politically to bigger and to do whether it was russia or the european union at this point of time and you can feel that need for

a stronger someone in the in the speech itself the contemporary ukrainian politicians they often say that we need more support from the european union we need more encouragement i want to ask you what do you think what strategy do you think europe because europe is now i think responsible for ukraine what strategy do you think would warrant bast to on the one hand encourage and bring out all the good old to bask in the ukrainians to encourage them on the path of free form but at the same time not to paddle to these what i think is in frontal need for somebody who will solve problems for you but you know no one is very happy in germany about the present state of ukraine. and their political system of about. formidable corruption. and and we want a diplomatic solution and we want we are trying to push them towards reform what

we do not want is arms deliveries as the new american administration seems to be considering. so we will see how things work out if if if minsk works. then i think. the purse picked for european russian relations and especially german russian relations will brighten up considerably well mr selmer let's keep our fingers crossed even though we perhaps do not have many causes for elton has made this point of time anyway i really appreciate your being here with us today on to our viewers please share your comments now twitter facebook and youtube pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here on the walls apart.

right now we're in with a good scene over. these birds fish. he asked me what i might do you just moments it's almost funny yes i might. i could introduce you eat it is home to the bulls most of all full drug syndicates. why

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a lot. he's. a terror probes launched over a stabbing attack at a major train station in the south of france the attacker who reportedly shouted. was shot dead after killing two. police in canada say a stabbing and ramming incident involving an officer and pedestrians is terror related and i so flag was found in the attackers car. and violent scenes erupt in catalonia as independence referendum with police and the four hundred sixty votes in.