tv Worlds Apart RT July 11, 2018 11:30pm-12:01am EDT
alone while come to worlds apart you secretary of state mike comparable made a surprise visit to afghanistan this week promising its government american support in and doing what he referred to as a forty eight year crisis this year in deep marks the fortieth anniversary of the socialist revolution in afghanistan which further exacerbated the tensions between the soviet union and the united states but is that really a starting point for afghanistan's current troubles well to discuss that i'm now joined by fazio koofi a member of the afghan parliament and prominent women's rights activist madame ku feed so great to talk to you think you very much for your time thank you both of you now first of all let me start by getting your reactions to this latest visit by the u.s. secretary of state. not only indorsed president gunnies intention to hold talks
with the taliban but actually repeated an offer for the united states to engage directly in those talks do you think that's a good idea. or. would like to stay. in afghanistan the boat in war but also in peace i think could there is a lot of confusion about the peace process in afghanistan definitely people of afghanistan who have suffered for more than forty years of war and conflict would like to see a country of peace because the country is now at the peak of so many conflict security stability also the upcoming elections two people want to see peace and security and. mediation of international community as a good and toured a will ensure a further sustainability for peace but the peace process should actually be talks
between the one who are fighting in this case the government of afghanistan and the taliban and i know that you are personally very concerned that any concessions to the taliban may reverse the recent gains in the women's rights in your country particularly article twenty two of the constitution which proclaims the equality between men and women is that really what the taliban is after because my impression has been that their main goal is to see the foreign there is out of their country do you think they would prioritise vis a vis social relations and that. we would be very happy to see a change of perspective among the taliban. especially when it comes to the view about women's political and social engagement because i remember during the taliban i was living in a kind of sun i remember how brutal their policies were to worse woman as women were deprived of their basic rights of education working. of all kinds of basic
rights. now i'm hearing different views perhaps taliban are divided when it comes to their view and perspective about women in gauge minter participation in social and political life. right now the woman still are the main target of taleban political kind of perspective because when they talk about peace and negotiation one of their condition is woman islamic rights and their interpretation of islamic writer for money is so different from the ones who are actually islamic clerks because they don't want women to go to school the leadership when you talk to the soldiers to the food soldiers their perspective is different so what i think is that we need an international law as i said before to make sure that women are in the negotiation table the part of the process because in most of the negotiation and the talks women are not you clear with it so that's
a kind of concern that if the beginning there is no women included of course that that's what that's that's a valid concern hopefully eventually they will come to this understanding that the women of afghanistan have now come back a floor that they will not be able to reverse it's interesting to me that both the american santa sachs and the afghan leadership referred to what is happening in afghanistan right now as the forty year crisis which would cover not only the american intervention there but obviously decide on as well from your perspective do you those great power for racing to your country have anything in common. i think. as somebody who lived in afghanistan all my life there is one difference the difference right now with the. when the soviet invaded afghanistan. and supported the force of the government against them which i had in a lot of peace. afghanistan we're supporting which are they were welcoming and
supporting and they were giving the space for. their children who are fighting against the government. supported by soviet union but when it comes to the taleban because people of afghanistan have experienced the taliban and kind of have the decent smell of what they want in this country they don't have a lot of local and popular support at the local community and so therefore in many local communities people would like to see the international forces as a signal is a must search for tol'able not to come to those villages i think that's the difference if i could but i think one of the perhaps most obvious things in common that at least i see in both the how the soviets and the americans in gauging your country is that both try to remake afghanistan in their own image both put a lot of alpha sis on the women's rights because that was also
a very very major issue for the saudi if they believe in the emancipation of women they actually encourage the women's participation in the labor force and if i'm not mistaken the nine hundred eighty s. actually sat the historic record in afghanistan for women in the labor force and i would also argue both have failed in that regard is that how you see it that's true to some extent the truth is that. there are some problems woman of afghanistan that are facing that has got to loot in our culture and tradition and it's very difficult to change culture and tradition overnight we need time we need commitment with resources and political commitment of all is essential to change of perspective there are some problems that are made by man these are human made problems for women especially for instance when women are deprived of going to school. due to the war during the toilet. and they would have to stay whole
that's a program that is created by the politicians by the government and definitely we need somehow international support for to serve problems to get to the thing but i . meant here would be the changes that the women of afghanistan see today. just. as they should have. come from this excited country from the grassroots level if you go to the communities right now people especially women would like to see their daughters to go to school they would like to you know that the changes are from the grassroots level and i think that to live person to take it back to the taliban preview it is not possible because here this woman people of color some want to see the chain medical fam sorry for jumping in but i want to take an issue with what you're just sad that it's not possible to refer to traverse that changes because that's obviously how the soviets approach that issue back in the night and eighty's
they believe that those changes were natural it was a natural course of history but then. came in and they started undermining many of those efforts by investing heavily in the fundamentalists prefer ganda and it's well documented right now that. there was a concerted american effort to present people who send their daughters to school who allowed their women to work as infidels don't you think that some of those challenges that we are facing right now are in part to rooted in that effort to preserve and women's rights as alley and to the afghan society you absolutely need to i mean a lot of these groups are very tragic. part of the international community. will see this sort of how they should commute it was cheap these changes i'm sure is the international community try to exempt from afghanistan for instance. with.
an assurance. that to some of these changes will be safeguarded this to history will repeat itself and then we will perhaps face some of those. same situation that we faced after the soviet. withdrawal from afghanistan but in the meantime let me also make it clear that after the soviets withdrawn from afghanistan there was a. civil war and they tell about basically undermine all the groups that work people have got a. particular woman or for. everything basically kind of started from scratch while the woman movement in afghanistan has a very long history of the women participation in social and political life has a very long history of doing this so that also we had a lot of schools there is another small differences but then you have these progresses were limited to the cities and now money of these programs limit is
limited to the security in the places which there is security and safety you can see these prove this what they meant by american efforts to undermine women's rights in afghanistan was they have investment in the mujahideen group and i think it is fair to say that they specifically sought back in the eighty's to weaponize that culture of aggressive masculinity and intolerance towards education especially education among the girls now that was kept under certain restrictions while the soviet troops were still in big cities as you pointed out but once they withdrew i think the taliban took over very quickly and from what i understand from your biography you were already a young strong educated woman at a time what was it like for you to see all those gains reversed almost not overnight but i assume over a matter of a couple of months. absolutely it was not
a nice moment to see a lot of. young women in afghanistan young girls are deprived of their basic basic rights like their rights to get out of your home and go to see a doctor it was something that money hundreds of women in afghanistan actually hundreds of thousands of women experience if you're good to see a doctor you had to be accompanied by a male company and from your family now can you imagine those women who were either not married or had no male relatives in their families they never managed to go to see a doctor so it's true the other today is that doing the more you didn't tie when they were joined in were fighting against the soviets backed regime in kabul a lot of money came was i was invested for much. from the western countries and the united states without as you rightly said without putting some benchmarks in terms of human rights and women's rights situation as
a result the money was spent to support groups by some of the intelligence of the neighboring country on one hand on the other hand this money partly was used also to support other extremism and radicalism in the region which literally eventually they came to afghanistan and afghanistan as a country that has a history of civilization was eventually used by different networks of radical groups that you know women were the main page of their policies now i want to ask you something perhaps personal because we all assume that liberties are something that once you once you try them you start taking them for granted why do you think the afghan society is all those fathers and has been who have been sending their daughters to school or who saw that wives going to work why do you think they all turned their back on that well that was the sub part of it the sad part of it is after life to. in taliban was that. afghanistan always guard their
wife's their sisters as a value. human being comedies that's historically like that that's why women made enough to understand are so protective toward that their woman of the family but unfortunately due to the title but not totally that you know physically of other structures were kind of broken that government was physically you know not a strong government but a brutal government but also associated our social values were damaged item number put in since going to the streets of kabul when a woman was beaten up by taliban her husband denied that imation ship just to be said to save himself so not only this one conflict actually damaged our structures and infrastructure but it unfortunately damaged our values too well madam koofi we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned.
i think more to get its outstanding person because he took on the most powerful agency in county or you'll be the state look at its. mark was the day that. the lights. going to spin the sheriff's mosquito. is the first time i noticed something wasn't right. for you much when they first started the corruption in palm beach county it's not something that you smile or say it's a nod and a wink wasn't what i wanted to do. his
just before the break we were discussing why the gains in women's rights in afghanistan dissipated so quickly once the taliban took over and i personally believe that's because this issue has long been presented as something before and there is a trying to impose on the afghan society first it was the soviets later it was the westerners and we can now see the effort that particularly in the west to present the women's issues in afghanistan as part of the me to movement do you think that's actually helpful. to be honest there are a lot of. changes send the sense most taleban since two thousand and one changing the perspectives in the money people in afghanistan. for women as a. as an urgent that the worst and the you it and the national community is in
favor because women freedom came along with the fall of taliban. together with this if you situation americans and they do come to afghanistan so many people in afghan so what we got. initially opposed to doesn't one with the good woman movement and progress as part of the american or the west kind of intervention and support but not all of these things are changing the perspective is changing i think a lot of people will regard this as a as a well i guess my problem with the me to movement and globalizing it to such extent is that it is primarily about taking on the male patriarchy reach may be the case for western countries but i think it's a rather limiting perspective for the rest of the world and particularly for afghanistan where as you articulated it's not just an issue of pet patriarchy it's also a very complex historic political geopolitical even it can and they cannot make
a sure because you may educate the girls but at the current moment the afghan economy doesn't have enough troops to sustain that real empowerment don't you think that perhaps the western perspective on how women are treated in afghanistan is a little bit. too narrow and many of these campaigns that you mentioned the need to which is part of this global climate isn't competing. is very limited to the cities or even among to see this very limited to. a few individuals so the global change about a woman a woman situation actually does not impact the woman of afghanistan's life what i'm trying to say is. right now the people of afghanistan perspective changed their view is in change for instance. when i went to school you know i faced a lot of challenges as a go to go to school but now from the same community that i come from a lot of. come to be asking put to school for girls because these see that there is
a woman who is educated she can do something now they want good. examples i think that's why i'm kind of believing that the perspective of people are changing and that's waiting things will not reverse back to the taliban period because during taliban the social media the media as a whole people will not see the progress and they have not experienced the liberty to the extent that they have experienced now you know the use of media social media etc people now experience that i think yes when it comes to the global kind of standard talk woman rights in afghanistan we are nowhere in the global sun that we still have a long way to go but when it comes to the situation on the ground the fact that there is a lot of positive view about woman. i just give you an example you know we have according to our constitution we have a quota for women political participation now we do have some women who have been elected on the juno seat without you know the coup that means that the perspective
of the local community is in change in support of women but that of course as i said before need a lot of resources a lot of political commitments and you know it cannot be changed overnight now going back to that issue of talking to the taliban the question is how to do it because both the americans and the westerners more generally have tried different approaches back in two thousand and one george w. bush used ultimatums which resulted in a war on the other hand there were times when westerners sort of caved in to the taliban's demands for example back in ninety seven when the female attorney for the u.n. high commissioner for refugees was forced to talk from behind a curtain so they wouldn't see her face which led to even more outrageous demands later on what do you think is the optimal way of engaging this group without losing the. as for reconciliation but also without considering everything in the process
absolutely it's a very important question because security and justice are the two process and they will only succeed if the two process is giving it quite a weight and equal importance if you don't give importance to justice to the people voice to the social participation of the end habitants of a country in a process just focusing on security which is a priority for us while not through security. as we want it so justice and security must go as a. process and we need to have inclusion of woman the same taliban that you give example of talking to women from behind a curtain you know i would be surprised to see their daughters studying and western capitals in the best universities so it's not. it's not that that they are really really believing in what they do it's all politics and in politics you can always
be flexible and i hope the taliban will be flexible in terms of their approach for women participation and i think women should be given a voice from to the beginning they have to be part of the process because there is this belief among our leaders that you know once everything is settled done we will include women which is a very wrong believe you need to include woman because as a as you rightly say it didn't demand victims of all these conflicts of forty one so i think that gives me some hold with that i think we now have a unique geo political moment when most of the regional players the united states russia china pakistan supported the idea of the talks between the government and the taliban the rather than trying to undermine each other convert me so it really looks like foreign there is at least tired of this perpetual conflict what about the people within the country have they had and nuff of this war. absolutely you
know there was a ceasefire and now. by the government. festival . days. you wouldn't believe it there was clarity about you know what the process would be there was no consultation in the process with. women's groups etc but you wouldn't believe it the taliban will come with. some of these full force orders of taliban will come to the cities to meet the order of the city people to go to the site places so that is an indication of how a turn. our people is for peace but in the meantime let's also keep in mind that as i indicated before we want to have a peace with justice like just a peace and secure country we had to do it in taliban during taliban afghanistan was absolutely a peaceful country but there was no life there was no freedoms or freedom of speech freedom of movement and no rights for women so yes we won boat we want peace but
also we want freedom as a human being now your own personal story i think is a very hard breaking and inspiring at the same time when you were born your mother left you all at the century to die because she wanted to have a son but then thankfully she changed her mind and the from what i understand she began your biggest champion in life is that an apt metaphor for how afghanistan is treating its daughters. all good this perspective is now changing in some of the families because if you have a daughter your daughter can go to school and she will have an income for the family i have two daughters which i'm very proud of them. this perspective is changing in some of the families but still. afghanistan there are a lot of people a lot of money but of course also women who want to have a son and. the reason for a woman primarily. because women suffered
a lot as my mother always gave me this example she suffered as a woman a lot in her life she has faced a lot of discrimination and injustice she didn't want another girl to face as much challenges and problems as she faced and therefore she wanted to have a boy not because she didn't love us a daughter but because she didn't want another woman in this world to suffer as much as she suffered i think that my mother perspective was rather unique at that time because you know she had brought her from my other mother from my stepmother and my mother also wanted to have a son but this perspective still exists in the us where people want to have son because they believe the sound is the identity hold out of the family. for the family they can present a family also when it comes to the property right to have more rights to access property these are all these are people who want to have sons but in the cities and
urban areas the perspective is changing which i'm very happy about it well and some of those social changes our ready it reflected in the politics as you noted earlier in some localities they're more man than the women registered to run in the next fall's elections i wonder if you have already made up your mind whether you're going to be competing for the parliamentary seat again for department to elections definitely i have just had myself and i hope that the. last time i was elected on a general seat and i'm hoping that this time again. the same level of support and trust from my people that i get elected not on a quota but on a general seat and i hope that more women will also from the people from the provinces will get more gender seats that we have more women participation in parliament and i hope that eventually woman will be in the leadership of the parliament why not to have a woman as a speaker of the parliament in the next. parliament. maybe the president of
afghanistan i know that the elections are coming up next year anyway madam kofi we have to leave it here thank you very much for being with us today and best of luck in your very difficult job and courage of yours to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on the world's apart.
all the security mechanisms and agencies and the we don't want to be part of britain anymore he got caught stomping out aviation companies we mentioned bank stopping out everyone wants to get out because if you don't have the super. institutions to cover the if you have any part of that and you saw to be a separate go it alone island under a large rain cloud swimming in marmite worshipping some old you get a crown. in france germany and italy and the rest are saying no we don't want to be a part of.
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