tv Worlds Apart RT July 12, 2018 9:30am-10:01am EDT
it's still one of. our strategic partner. policy. that it would like to stay. in afghanistan the boat in war but also in peace i think could there is a lot of confusion about the peace process in a firmer stand definitely people of afghanistan who have suffered for more than forty years of war and country would like to see a country of peace because the country is now at the peak of so many conflicts security stability also the upcoming elections so people want to see the peace and security and. mediation of international community as a goal and tour a will ensure further sustainability for peace but the peace process should actually be talks between the one who are fighting in this case the government of afghanistan and the taliban and i know that you are personally very concerned that any concessions to the taliban be reverse the recent gains in the women's rights in
your country particularly article twenty two of the constitution which proclaims the equality between men and women is that really what the taliban is after because my impression has been that their main goal is t. is to see the foreign there is out of their country do you think they would prioritise vis a vis social relations and that. we would be very happy to see a change of perspective among the taleban. especially when it comes to the view about women's political and social engagement because i remember during the taliban i was living in a kind of sun i remember how brutal their policies were to worse woman as women were deprived of their basic rights a future cation working out all kinds of basic rights. now i'm hearing different views perhaps taliban are divided when it comes to their view and perspective about women in gauge minter participation. social and political life. right now the woman
still are the main target of taleban political kind of perspective because when they talk about peace and negotiation one of their condition is woman islamic rights and their interpretation of islamic right of woman is so different from the ones who are actually islamic clerks because they don't want women to go to school the leadership when you talk to the soldiers to the food soldiers their perspective is different so what i think is that we need an international tool as i said before to make sure that women are in the negotiation table the part of the process because in most of the negotiation and the talks women are not you clear with it so that's a kind of concerned that if the beginning there is no woman included of course that that's what that's what it that's a valid concern hopefully eventually they will come to this understanding that the
women of afghanistan have now come very far that they will not be able to reverse if interesting to me that both the americans and to some extent the afghan leadership referred to what is happening in afghanistan right now as the forty year crisis which would cover not only the american intervention there but obviously the soviet one as well from your perspective do you those great power for racing to your country have anything in common. i think. as somebody who lived in afghanistan all my life there is one difference the difference right now with the. when the soviet invaded afghanistan. and supported the force of the government against them which i read in that a lot of people ended a little afghanistan were supporting which i he didn't they were welcoming and supporting and they were giving the space for mujahideen and their children were fighting against the government then supported by so. of it union but when it comes
to the taliban because people of afghanistan have experienced the taliban. kind of have the taste and the smell of what they want in this country they don't have a lot of local and popular support at the local community and so therefore in many local communities people would like to see the international forces as a signal is a must search for tol'able not to come to those villages i think that's the difference if i could summarize it but i think one of the perhaps most obvious things in common that at least i see in both the how the soviets and the americans in gauging your country is that both try to remake afghanistan in their own image both put a lot of alpha sis on the women's rights because that was also a very very major issue for the soviets they believed in the emancipation of women they actually encouraged the women's participation in the labor force and if i'm not mistaken the nine hundred eighty s. actually said the historic record in afghanistan for women in the labor force and i
would also argue both have failed in that regard is that how you see it that's true to some extent the truth is that. there are some problems woman of afghanistan that are facing that has got to loot in our culture and tradition and it's very difficult to change culture and tradition overnight we need time we need commitment with resources and political commitment of all is essential to change of perspective there are some problems that are made by man these are human made problems for women especially for instance when women are deprived of going to school. due to the war or during the taliban they were had to stay whole that's a program that is created by the politicians by the government and definitely we need somehow international support for those problems to get to the.
well you mean here would be the changes that the women of afghanistan see today. just. as they should have. come from this excited country the grassroots level if you go to the communities right now people especially women would like to see their daughters to go to school they would like to you know that the changes are from the grassroots level and i think that to the person to take it back to the taliban preview it is not possible because here at this moment people of color some want to see the chain medical fam sorry for jumping in but i want to take an issue with what you're just sad that it's not possible to refer to traverse that changes because that's obviously how the soviets approached that issue back in the night and eighty's they believe that those changes were natural it was a natural course of history but then. came in and they started undermining many of those efforts by investing heavily in the fundamentalists prefer ganda and it's
well documented right now that. there was a concerted american effort to present people who send their daughters to school who are allowed their women to work as infidels don't you think that some of those challenges that we are facing right now are in part to rooted in that effort to preserve and women's rights as alley and to the afghan society you absolutely need to i mean a lot of these groups are very fragile. international community. will see this sort of how they can ensure community was to keep these changes i'm sure that if the international community try to exit from afghanistan for instance with . an assurance. that to some of these changes will be safeguarded this to history will be to telephone and then we will perhaps face some of those. same. situation that we face after the soviet. withdrawal from afghanistan but in
the meantime let me also make it clear that after the soviets withdrawn from afghanistan there was a gap a gap of civil war and a gap of tell about that basically undermined all the groups that were people of afghanistan in general and particular woman of afghanistan. everything basically kind of started from scratch while the woman movement in afghanistan has a very long history of the women participation in social and political life has a very long history of doing this with also we had a lot of schools there is another small differences but by then many of these progresses were limited to the cities and now money of these programs limit is limited to the security in the places which there is security and safety you can see these protests what i meant by american efforts to undermine women's rights in
afghanistan was they have investment in the mujahideen group and i think it is fair to say that they specifically sought back in the eighty's to weaponize that culture of aggressive masculinity and intolerance towards education especially education among the girls now that was kept under certain restrictions while the soviet troops were still in big cities as you pointed out but once they withdrew i think the taliban took over very quickly and from what i understand from your biography you were already a young strong educated woman at a time what was it like for you to see all those gains reversed almost not overnight but i assume over a matter of a couple of months absolutely it was not a nice moment to see a lot of. young women in afghanistan and girls are deprived of their basic basic right like their rights to get out of your home and go to see a. dr it was something that money hundreds of women in afghanistan actually
hundreds of thousands of women experience if you're good to see a doctor you had to be accompanied by a male company and from your family now can you imagine those women who were either not married or had no male relatives in their families they never managed to go to see a doctor so it's to the other two days that doing the mojahedin time when they were joined in were fighting against the soviets backed regime in kabul a lot of money came was i was invested for maternity group from the western countries and the united states without as you rightly said without putting some benchmarks in terms of human rights and women's rights situation as a result the money was spent to support groups by some of the intelligence of the neighboring country on one hand on the other hand this money partly was used also to support other extremism and article that equalized group in the region which
literally eventually they came to afghanistan and afghanistan as a country that has a history of civilization was eventually used by different networks of radical groups that you know women were the main defense of their policies now i want to ask you something perhaps personal because we all assume that liberties are something that once you once you try them you start taking them for granted why do you think the afghan society is all those fathers and has burns who have been sending their daughters to school or who saw that wives going to work why do you think they all turned their back on that well that was the sub part of it the sad part of it is after life during taliban was that the leader of afghanistan always you guard their wives their sisters as a value it will. kind of human being in their families that's historically like the . that's why women made in afghanistan are so protective toward that their woman of
the family but unfortunately due to talk about natalee that you know to physically of other structures of our kind of broken government was physically you know not a strong government but a brutal government but also so shitty our social values were damaged i did them by foot incense going in the streets of kabul when a woman was beaten up by taliban her husband denied that imation chip just to be said to save himself so not only this one conflict actually damaged our structures and infrastructure but it unfortunately damaged our values too well madam koofi we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned.
sort of seeing. all the security back and assumption agencies in the e.u. saying we don't want to be part of britain anymore you got caught up in stomping out abs in companies we mentioned banks stopping out everyone wants to get out because if you don't have the supernatural institutions to cover the farms and you saw to be a separate go it alone island under a large rain cloud swimming in my washing some older i get a crown. in france germany and italy and the rest are saying no we don't want to be a part of the.
welcome back to worlds apart with piracy a koofi a member of the afghan parliament and prominent women's rights activist madam goofy just before the break we were discussing why the gains in women's rights in afghanistan dissipated so quickly once the taliban took over and i personally believe that's because this issue has long been presented as something before and there is a trying to impose on the afghan society first it was the soviets later it was the westerners and we can now see some effort that particularly in the west to present the women's issues in afghanistan as part of the me to move men do you think that's actually helpful. to be honest there are a lot of. changes since. two thousand and one.
changing the perspectives initially as many people in afghanistan. support for women as a foreign agenda as an urgent that the worst and the u.n. and the national community is in favor because women freedom came along with the fall of taliban. together with this abuse situation that americans and they to come to afghanistan so many people in afghan so good regard. initially opposed to thousand and one with the good woman movement and progress as part of the american or the west kind of intervention and support but not all of these things are changing the perspective is changing i think a lot of people will regard this as a as a well i guess my problem with the me to movement and globalizing it to such extent is that it is primarily about taking on the male patriarchy reach may be the case for western countries but i think it's a rather limiting perspective for the rest of the world and particularly for
afghanistan where as you articulated it's not just an issue of patriarchy it's also a very complex historic political jewel political even it cannot and they cannot make history because you may educate the girls but at the current moment the afghan economy doesn't have enough troops to sustain that real empowerment don't you think that perhaps the western perspective on how women are treated in afghanistan is a little bit. too narrow and many of these campaigns that you mentioned the need to which is part of this global climate isn't competing. is very limited to the cities or even among the suit is very limited to. a few individuals so the global change about a woman a woman situation actually does not impact the woman of afghanistan's life what i'm trying to say is. right now the people of afghanistan perspective changed their view is in change for instance. when i went to school you know i faced
a lot of challenges as a go to go to school but now from the same community that i come from a lot of men come to be asking put to school for girls because the see that there is a woman who is educated she can do something now they want. an example i think that's why i'm kind of believing that the perspective of people are changing and that's why i think things will not reverse back to the taliban period because during taliban the social media the media as a whole people will not see the progress and they have not experienced the levity to the extent that they have experienced now you know the use of media social media etc people now experience that i think yes when it comes to the global kind of standard talk women rights in afghanistan we're nowhere in the global sound we still have a long way to go but when it comes to the situation on the ground the fact that there is a lot of positive view about woman. i just give you an example you know we have
according to our constitution we have a quota for women political participation now we do have some woman who have been elected on the juno seat without you know that means that the perspective of the local community is in change in support of women but that of course as i said before need a lot of resources a lot of political commitments and you know it cannot be changed overnight now going back to that issue of talking to the taliban the question is how to do it because both the americans and the westerners more generally have tried different approaches back in two thousand and one george w. bush used ultimatums which resulted in a war on the other hand there were times when westerners sort of caved in to the taliban's demands for example back in ninety seven when a female attorney for the u.n. high commissioner for refugees was forced to talk from behind a curtain so they wouldn't see her face which led. even more outrageous demands
later on what do you think is the optimal way of engaging this group without losing the chance for reconciliation but also without considering everything in the process absolutely it's a very important question because security and justice are the two process and they will only succeed if the two process is giving it quite a weight and equal importance if you don't give importance to justice to the people voice to the social participation of the end habitants of a country in a process just focusing on security which is a prairie for us while not through security. as we want it so justice and security must go as a. process and we need to have inclusion of woman the same taliban that you give example of talking to women from behind a curtain you know i would be surprised to see their daughters studying and western capitals in the best universities so it's not. it's not that that they are really
really believing in what they do it's all politics and in politics you can always be flexible and i hope the taliban will be flexible in terms of their approach for women participation and i think women should be given a voice for armed at the beginning they have to be part of the process because there is this belief among our leaders that you know once everything is settled then we will include women which is a very wrong you need to include woman because as a as you rightly say it didn't demand victims of all these conflicts of forty one so i think that gives me family hold with that i think we now have a unique geo political moment when most of the regional players the united states russia china pakistan supported the idea of the talks between the government and the taliban the rather than trying to undermine each other convert me so it really looks. like for him there is at least are tired of this perpetual conflict what
about the people within the country have they had and nuff of this war absolutely you know there was a ceasefire and now. by the government. getting the festival . days. you wouldn't believe it there was clarity about you know what the process would be there was no consultation in the process with. women's groups etc but you wouldn't believe it the taleban will come with. some of these full force holders of taliban would come to the cities to meet the order of the city people to go to the site places so that is an indication of how to turn. our people is for peace but in the meantime let's also keep in mind that as i indicated before we want to have a peace with justice like just a peace and secure country we had to do it in taleban during taliban afghanistan
was absolutely a peaceful country but there was no life there was no freedoms or freedom of speech freedom of movement and no rights for women so yes we won boat we want peace but also we want freedom as a human being now you're in your own personal story i think it's a very hard breaking and inspiring at the same time when you were born your mother left you all at the century to die because she wanted to have a son but then thankfully she changed her mind and the from what i understand she began your biggest champion in life is that an apt metaphor for how afghanistan is treating its daughters. all good this perspective is now changing in some of the families because if you have a daughter your daughter can go to school and she will have an income for the family i have two daughters which i'm very proud of them. this perspective is changing in some of the families but still. afghanistan there are
a lot of people a lot of man but of course also a woman who want to have a son and the reason for a woman primarily. because women suffered a lot as my mother always gave me this example she suffered as a woman a log in her life she has faced a lot of. injustice she didn't want another go to face as much challenges and problems as she faced and therefore she wanted to have a boy not because she didn't love us a daughter but because she didn't want another woman in this world to suffer as much as she suffered i think that my mother perspective was rather unique at that time because you know she had brought her from my other mother from my stepmother and my mother also wanted to have a son but this perspective still exists in the us where people want to have son because they believe the sound is the identity hold out of the family. for the family they can present a family also when it comes to the property right to have more rights to access
property these are all these are people who want to have sons but in the cities in the urban areas the perspective is changing which is which are very happy about it well and some of those social changes our ready it reflected in the politics as you noted earlier in found localities they're more man than the women register to run in the next fall's elections i wonder if you have already made up your mind whether you're going to be competing for the parliamentary seat again for department to election definitely i have just said myself and i hope that the. last time i was elected on a general seat and i'm hoping that this time again again the same level of support and trust from my people that i get elected not on a quota but on a general he then i hope that more women will also from the people from the provinces will get more gender seats that we have more women participation in column. and i hope that eventually you will and will it be in the leadership of the
parliament why not to have a woman the speaker of the parliament in the next. parliament oh maybe the president of afghanistan i know that the elections are coming up next year anyway madam coffee we have to leave it here thank you very much for being with us today ambassador locke in your very difficult job and courage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on the world's apart.
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