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tv   Going Underground  RT  October 21, 2019 5:30pm-6:01pm EDT

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joe backed by the european union ask what it would take for the pro independence as said be the support to break the 3 speed to the lawyer of one of the democratically elected politicians being hunted down by e.u. backed spanish authorities over the more coming up in today's going underground the 1st we speak to one of britain's greatest whistle blows katherine gun played by keira knightley in the new film official secrets souring refines and matt smith about british corruption of the united nations security council to aerially bombard and occupy the middle east gather and welcome back to going underground so what's it like being played by keira knightley portraying the misery and pain as tony blair's allegedly. trying to destroy you for revealing that britain was part of a sinister plan to corrupt the un security council wow i never have to choose who pays me. and now it's amazing she's a great actress and she portrayed it really well i think and you know she actually
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caused me to sympathize with her when i watched that usually sympathize with you. surely i mean you believe the plan was just spy a all in the u.n. security council members and then potentially blackmail them into voting for the war on iraq that these 2 guys supported yes that was and that is what happened i mean they did actually send out you know send out people to africa to african nations to south america to you know talk about withdrawing aid or giving aid and various things in the run up to the war there was a big campaign to get people on board to vote for this u.n. security council resolution over this is this really blackmail and that's what the memo yes the read there g.c. h.q. said because david obey the former head of g.c.a. be enormous show actually proudly about g c h q he said. he said everything was by the book at him did not ask him directly
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about what you did g c h q that there was some solidarity with the fact you blew the whistle on this memo that appeared in your outlook in books wow a fear of my friends yeah they're still my friends and they do you know they've left them saudis and so it's all right for them to be seen with me and you know be in correspondence with me someone in this building has betrayed their government and their country other people who are still working there i don't know how they feel whether they support me or not i don't know but they certainly wouldn't give that impression to g.c. educate your defense as portrayed in the film even well maybe you were on the red carpet with ralph with joe mcdonald shadow chancellor was saying tony blair is no war criminal. that he shouldn't be arrested and yet your defense was this war was illegal therefore you are right i find that extraordinary you know i
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mean there are a lot of questions so that having been on set about why they dropped the case against me why they charge me in the 1st place you know if they were just going to turn around and drop it and they use they said it was 1st of all it was because. they couldn't. they weren't convinced of a conviction. so they didn't want to waste taxpayers' money subsequently they have said it was because i couldn't have a fair trial and you know it it begs the question why couldn't i have a fair trial what was what was their position did they actually think that what i what i did was the right thing to do. and in that case you know if you're logically thinking through those things it was the right thing for me to do and do they agree that the war was illegal that you had to cut the public interest defense yeah so people and if i was just next door people then know that even if there is a public interest in revealing the information they have no right to do so i have no right to do. and in this day and age where you know we're talking about you know
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social justice and accountability and transparency you know the this doesn't set a good example above and beyond the legal. inability for anyone to whistle blow they threatened you. they threatened your marriage and it's exposed here that they wanted to deport your husband as an act of revenge when you make sure he had already applied for asylum yes which was denied. yes and that's when you married him yes did he pay you absolutely no i'm sorry i didn't mean to upset you it's just that your husband is muslim in the prosecution will be looking for motive my motive was to stop who and save lives i failed now that actually wasn't retaliation and it may look like that in the film but what happened was he was an asylum seeker and they have been denied and so his case is moving forward in
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parallel to my case it's actually an amazing coincidence that had i not been facing criminal prosecution at the time he would have been deported so it's actually quite a. nice bit of silver lining to this whole issue and do we move franco's it is you wrote the memo that you exposed no i hasn't come out although there was a rather bizarre incident when we were in san francisco about a time this year and after the screening we had a q. and a and there was this question and this this sort of slightly bent out of the figures that you may find that frank is hiding in plain sight this is the guy who said to send e-mails saying the u.n. security council members shouldn't of there be a black man to support an illegal war. jews saying that do you think that today
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they would try and psychologically destroy a whistle blow dry just open the british government trying to sex up the case for war i don't see why they would do things differently i mean the. you know they sample of the iraq war the buildup to the iraq war the propaganda the lies have all been exposed now you know there were no weapons of mass destruction the u.n. didn't authorize the invasion of iraq therefore the war is illegal but they're still trying to 6 extraordinary that esto trying to defend. we employed to do i translated signals intelligence and i reported anything i thought might be of interest my clients the foreign office the ministry of defense so you work for the british government no not really no governments change i work for the british people so if they can get away with it then surely they think they can get away with it now i don't think it will change anything but was the impact in those
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rotating members the un security council countries like chile which of course with the british back to pinochet did have a big impact. i think it did i mean yeah certainly in chile the chilean ambassador at the time he was very very distraught that you know this relationship he thought . chile had repaired with the united states you know this they had open trade negotiations and all the rest of it. and to see that they were still doing this sort of thing decades after they'd you know kryten. created a coup in chile. you know supported a very. appalling dictator that this sort of thing was still carrying on we know in effect from greg dyke the former director general that he was. thrown out of the b.b.c. effectively for doubting the reasons for the iraq war for david over the head of
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g.h.q. pursue david kelly. arguably a whistleblower who of course died how do you think the film portrays kabul ahmed we do invite them all is the director of editorial policy now at the b.b.c. and in the film is shown to be someone who says your story should be recovered i think you know in any news room i feel that you know it's right and proper for people to have different opinions and i think has position as perfectly clear you know he wanted to state the to be the sort of devil's advocate as your light because everybody was so keen to get the story out here. it's just warning them you know. just be careful this could be could be fraudulent however you know is it right and proper for a reporter to take sides on a war and that is what he i believe his position was at the time i think as a reporter you should always try to remain as. unbiased as possible so that you can actually you know see things from
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a balanced point of view but it's clear in the film that you didn't leak the memo deliberately to the guardian media groups pro-war observer newspaper you know it just ended up at the newspaper that supported the war now yeah i mean that's kind of ironic really but it's a credit to the observe and roger alton who was the editor at the time that despite the fact that they were probable they still printed this exposé which was very much showing you know showing it to be antiwar at the time that particular presentation during the delay in publishing it helped to create this circumstances in which britain went to war in iraq in a you never know do you i mean this is the own one of the things i'm slightly regretful of that they have to go to such great lengths in and authenticating it what happens when that information is out you know that information comes out. of
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the m.p.'s and you know various members of the civil service. they are then privy to that information you know it is from that information that they can act and we have. we haven't seen any evidence that they acted on that information and that as want to supplant me given journey blair as to will or that bunch of people wanting the war in iraq jane you are more worried about you exposing the flaw in the official secrets act or exposing the fact what they were doing was tantamount to. facilitating the supremum war crime under the un charter i mean we don't now i don't object to being asked to connect information that could help prevent a terrorist attack. the object is being to get the intelligence to help fix a vote at the u.n. and deceive the world into doing 2 or it could be both you know i mean on the one
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hand they wanted to set an example of me they didn't want to have intelligence officer on under cross-examination. they don't want the official secrets act to have a defense perhaps i don't know and but ultimately i i really think it had something to do with the attorney general's advice or goldsmith yes there's now a pundit on many programs talking about whether we should go to war in syria with iran is these are all very rehabilitated people which is a shame nothing will be rectified if these people are not held to account arguably you were luckier than other reveal a solve a legit war crimes julian assange says is in jail in london but the united nations repertoire on torture an arbitrary detention different operators have come out in favor just the manning of course is in in jail again refusing to.
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destroy julian as. things actually worse than when you were a whistleblower that they may or may not be worse but they're certainly not any better i mean i think. we this is an issue. that is absolutely crucial it is an issue that needs addressing we cannot have democracy when we lock up and throw away the keys of the people who are trying to bring illegality immorality. crimes and fraudulent behavior. into the public domain i mean that is not a transparent liberal democracy that we are supposed to be living and it wasn't long ago that there was a war in syria david cameron tried to bring it lots of tony blair's old people in the new liberal. part of the global labor but he they're all still there making the
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case for war hilary benn joining this film going to convince them so i'm going to appear for me may be raw i really think that can't be a more timely moment for this film to come out and that's why i'm you know spending a lot of time trying to promote the film because i really think people need to wake up and and revisit the issues of iraq what took us into iraq and and actually you know i think seriously about what one of the national interests i mean where we say we do things in the national national interest of national security invading iraq has neither improved national security nor benefited on national interest a visual secret is gone thank you thank you barcelona on fire as spain jails democratically elected politicians for 100 goodbye years with defacto e.u. backing we speak to a lawyer for one of the politicians being on the down and a member of the pro got
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a loan you're broke if you as soon be all this it will go above true of going underground. what politicians do something. they put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or some want to. have to write to the press this is what the fore. 3 of them will be good. i'm interested in the winds are. going to move. welcome back while breakfast is continued to accuse u.k. media of the remain agenda the violence of pro e.u. governments continues unabated with barcelona on fire in recent days after the mass
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jailing of democratically elected catalonian politicians i'm joined now by skype from inverness by the former as in b. and b. who pull monaghan who supports catalonia independence bowl thanks for coming on the show what have you made of these alarming pictures perhaps not given that much promotion on some of the mainstream journals the pictures a bus learner and father i think it's absolutely terrific this the images that we're seeing are not of the on social media from barcelona and other cities as well across scotland you know going i think particularly badly affected by the true toilet seat of the spanish authorities. i think it started to consider the speed of democracy within the e.u. is treating peaceful people in not sort of way and i think many many people are disappointed by what they see will the spanish government says the catalans should have called a referendum us live on the land wonderland the new european commission president is dismissed god alone is not a political problem when any pay
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a piece from spain couldn't turn up in the bottom a because they were in jail catalonia absolutely is a political problem a problem for the spanish government it is a political problem for the european union to say it's a political problem for the united nations as well we have to be very clear here that the people of scotland yeah i was with any other people anybody else in the world absolute right to determine the sort of government that they want to. control their society the people of scotland you know very strong views about this i've been there are. the referendum on the 1st of october 22nd team i spoke with confluence across the country there was a significant determination that they wanted to control their own destiny they wanted to be fully autonomous self-government they've got a right to make the decision they had a right to her referendum the spotter's authorities i think are being pedantic an
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extreme by saying that it's a feature of the spanish constitution if asked the case the spanish constitution needs to be changed to reflect international law and i think that the european union needs to start to consider the right state and the arguable rights of people's opinion and start to be a little bit more vocal in us this is a mall this father's government on the treatment that is currently meeting at 2 european such as the idea that. confluence can be elected to the european parliament and they may be diffused the right to take their seat i think it reflects very badly in the european union the current leadership of the particular quality i think needs to take a long hard look at their behavior. please their their views of. the rights of the people who have the un there when the illegal referendum the will of the people was in that catalonia how do you think some of the politicians are
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being jailed are going to be reacting to the thing in total 100 years was meted out to these elected politicians don't show the new any of them it's not general franco is it talk i think. certainly playing a role in what we're seeing today in. barcelona props in particular i how it may and you know some of the politicians that are not in jail i would question whether it was an illegal referendum i've said already that confluence have a right to determine their own future noxon shined an international law and i think international law. all words usurps them a stick lol so they have a right to hold it i thought it done they have a right to exercise democratic free. to g.-o. people for having done and i think reflects very badly on the spotter's government all those in jail and i would be thinking i think they will take the view view that they are standing up for their country they're standing up for rights it is
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a price worth paying freedom often doesn't come cheap ok but in fronts $10.00 deaths have been linked to the g.l.a. zone protests in have lonia hundreds and hundreds of arrests what does the e.u. have to do to make you say you know what the s.n.p. should be supporting breaks that well i don't think they seem people ever so who are not and i'd be very disappointed to view the you to pinpoint shaped is a significant social life or we should all place one of the significant achievements of the european union has called today is the fact that it has been all peace to you but it's only one or perhaps 2 generations ago that a duty was fighting there was total war across europe we would all losing folly members we've all lost family members not complex so the fact that we moved away from not that we all living peacefully together are they way to be
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a cool you don't call the war in yugoslavia in europe a war you think europe has been a peace i think compared with the total war of the 2nd world war i think we however left in peace and we've been fortunate to work towards a and what we're seeing today in countries like spain. perhaps elsewhere shouldn't necessarily tarnish our views of the european co-chaired i think what a should do here is inviting us to plays our position with and due to the utopian leadership is doing on. already people are placing upon them we have any any early in all rights we want them to be recognized and put our people wants to target or in future we must recognize them are how hard it should be for some people that has a right that should be exercised and can be exercised and should be treated with respect not responded to by the horrific levels of violence ok just finally and
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briefly though ironically scottish independence though is going to arguably or at least the cause of it is going to benefit from the brics a debate nigel for things not going to vote for boris johnson's deals basically hasn't breck's it and the whole debate over it it's brecht's it that's pave the way for scottish independence the scottish independence movement has been running now for about 300 years just over i think it is fueled by a tax cut you know scotland wants to be part of the european union it wants to be a fall you can trust a partner to other european nations we want our views to be respected and you know that we are determined to push forward with our to time when the way since our government is doing everything it possibly can to ignore the people of scotland and to make sure that we have no say whatsoever in our future democracy but one and thank you well scotland has been providing sanctuary to the former cabinet occasion
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is the current 1000 joining me now from glasgow is a defense lawyer aamer on law thanks so much effort coming back on thorough what did you make of the 100 is of said that this is against democratically elected will this that spain and what does it mean for your client the station minister i think it's an outrageous sentence not entirely unexpected but exposes the spanish justice system is being deeply flawed we had described during the original case but klara that the despondent system justice system in the sunny state stood accused of operating the operate in political persecution. that these individuals important trial is politically motivated done it was an act of political vengeance we have seen acts of violence perpetrated by the police by but the cattle on please and by the spanish state on the spanish police on hundreds of thousands of individuals who back to peacefully without violence and we saw that on october the 1st the actions of the state come as no surprise we are now preparing for a new international extradition warrant to be applied for against caught up in city
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and we intend to robustly defend not because we believe that she will not receive to process we will leave like the 9 catalans and presently sentenced to over 100 years imprisonment for carrying out the democratic will the democratic mandate of the gotland people we expect kauto would not also would not receive a fair trial and we believe that this would be yet again another act of political vengeance perpetrated by the spanish state go in by the spanish ambassador on the show is it going to help that the president of the european union european commission or zuma honda plan appears to be saying that the jailing of e.u. politicians is not a political issue presumably paving the way for your client the former education minister and others to go to the european court of for the european court while fortune fortunately we have a separation of powers and in the belgian codes in the german courts and we had hoped to tested this last year in the in the scottish court sided with the spanish decided to withdraw the warrants but the courts already have shown that they are
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willing to stand up that the rule of law applies that we believe in human rights and right throughout europe in the only scene places doesn't seem to apply of course was in it within spain so it's not really a question of the u.a.e. president i have to say the european union and most of most of the leaders have been complicit in their silence or worse than complicit in silence they have provided active support for the spanish state when they have carried out violence and i think actually it's a very dangerous moment for the european union because who are they they act with complete utter hypocrisy to point fingers other countries outside the european union but they don't have the guts and they don't have the. the dignity and the respect for the rights of people within the european union to simply point types of the spine to say stop acting like franco wants to stop acting in a manner that you are doing because you have ignited flames that cannot be extinguished no but it's no longer a question of if but it's a question of when catalonia will be free because there is no other solution the people are out on the streets and the spanish cannot jail 2345000000 cattle and
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they're not going back into their houses they've had enough and in the history of catalonia says itself where 19 out of 11 catalan presidents over the last 100 years have been jailed exiled or executed it shows exactly the way that spain deals with catalonia and the catalan people and enough is enough as you say barcelona has been on fire your client the education for education it's a caravan site it says she wants the end of the spanish occupation soldiers in catalonia and amnesty to political prisoners and the referendum and those demands only ever going to really be met on the streets of catalonia off the streets of oslo while power rests with the people and i would say this i've seen with horror in recent days that tension has been diverted to the fires attention has been diverted to try and split the movement to try and blame individuals on the streets and i'll say this if you and i as a criminal defense lawyer police officers of course have a right to use force but it has to be reasonable legitimate and proportionate and when it is not reasonable legitimate a proportion of people have
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a right to self-defense but what we have seen on a huge scale time and time again in catalonia is hundreds or thousands of people actors civil disobedience act with restraint and act with nonviolence yet what we see is an orgy of violence unleashed by the spanish state by them also it's under the control of the spanish state upon these people and yet we do not see that being condemned at the end of the day is amnesty for the cattle and prisoners the right of return for political exiles and if so if the people demand it then for there to be a vote on an agreement by spain because what do they do what exactly are they scared of. you know they do not own the cattle on people they are not their slaves and we saw in this country in the united kingdom what we had a peaceful referendum and whether the conservative party like to unknot they allowed a referendum to take place in scotland because the mandate was from the political parties within scotland for the right to vote for independence and the parallel solutions parallel analogy i can draw is that the idea that it's a moral nicholas study and didn't get
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a section 30 order allowing her the right to vote for independence from boris johnson and if nicola went ahead with the vote anyway the idea is this that in a few weeks time if nicolas sturgeon was then to find a self in a prison up in scotland to have half the cabinet in scotland in prison and for a after actually after that boris johnson had sent him 15000 members of the metropolitan police to baton people to the ground to use water cannons and to use plastic bullets and then we find his half a scottish government in prison and the other half in exile and you know seeking sanctuary in european countries yet that is the reality that we see in the heart of europe and what the practice is that spain has operated they have reverted shamefully back to the days of general franco and enough is enough they and they should be suspended from the european union for their actions and they should be taught a lesson because if we do not raise our voices now and if the european leaders do not act then they have no right to point the finger of blame or anybody else outside the european union because it is complicit with it silent and his utter
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utter hypocrisy thank you thank you but to finish over about 136 is the way the usa was arguably defeated in lebanon when around 250 or it's all just but killed by antirealism militants in beirut they drove us to do until wednesday came to try for the media don't forget to subscribe to our you tube channel. you know world's big partners new models and conspiracy it's time to wait. to dig deeper to hit the stories that made the stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the
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hawks. facebook and google started with a great idea and great ideals unfortunately it was also a very dark so. they are constructing a profile of you and that profile is real it's detailed and it never goes away turns out that google is manipulating your opinions from the very 1st character that you type into the search bar it will always favor one dog food over another one comparative shopping service over another and one candidate over another they can suppress certain types of results deiced on what they think you should be seeing if they have this kind of power then democracy is an illusion the free and fair election doesn't exist the more rope we give them the sooner we're all.
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another no to any attempt to say yes to break as it is the speaker of the u.k. parliament blocks the government's hopes of 8 votes and with still no signs of certainty anger from both pro and anti bred to support is the same someone pays and their families fearing for their site. by helping palestinian farmers in the west bank is brutally beaten by whatever alleged to have been mass israeli said. they returned me. and started to bits with clubs and we. did with the with the clubs on my hades.


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