hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle we live in the age of disbelief the people don't trust the government and the government doesn't trust the people how did we come to this deficit of legitimacy and more importantly is there a way out is dialogue possible. to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest judge you br-r.

in bristol she is the deputy leader of the workers' party of britain as well as the author of the drive to war against russia and china her upcoming book is identity politics class and in budapest we go to george samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on you. cross up rules that affect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate ok let's go to bristol here. a few weeks ago and i think i already told this to george is that i was watching the tucker carlson show on fox and he was interviewing these swedish ambassador to the united states. because coby and he was asking them. asking her how her government dealt with it and she started out by saying the people trust the government and the government trust the people well that it's an anomalous situation in the west right now it's remarkably different when it counts for this year because it. it the ability to have dialogue is almost impossible now we're not

just talking left and right are carping about people in the government go ahead i mean to be honest with you i'm not sure it's even really true in sweden anymore ok very i really appreciate that for a while it was it there is trust between government and people when the people fail that the government has their interests at heart now for a long time capitalist governments have been able certainly in the west where we had a kind of welfare state a social democratic consensus that a certain minimum lifestyle must be provided for everybody and therefore people felt the government was kind of had their back well there was a certain safety net and low level that we were low which they would not now we saw that start to crumble in fact in the $97.00 teens when the pows wound was over industrial jobs started to disappear from the imperius countries and many

communities where left very devastated by that they didn't have replacement jobs and their communities were just left to rot because they were very small minority of the overall population and the government spelt kids or the ruling classes felt they could leave that situation and let it rest and most people would be forced to keep voting labor but i mean here all democrats in the in the us and they didn't have anywhere else to go and that was no one else really speaking up to them because we had a lack of real good working close leadership a working class who was in retreat at that time. and so. that was the beginning of this process we can say now that she wasn't financial crises massively expeller right that situation because we've got some literally the day before that banking crash we were being told that the reason our public services were being dismantled was. there wasn't enough resources and people go into that people believe people

believe the problem was there's too many immigrants and the resources won't stretch and then the next day billions to buy up the banks now that was a shock that was a big shock to people and i as i was already a community the socialist talking too much in housekeeping before that crash and after that crash and i can tell you the difference in how people received what i had to say you know over night was staggering it's really george written just to enjoy the obviously is way left there we are a bit but i like diversity on my program of conversation but i would what i would glean from her is that you know i would agree with her it in the post-war era up into the 1970 s. maybe even early eighties we take the us there was a. acceptance of there would be a level of prosperity of course they'd be dips but overall there would be prosperity and i think that i don't agree i agree with joe here in 2000

a that came really crashing to the end because there is no. promise of prosperity is meant to be a whole post-war paradigm was too big a security and prosperity and they can't deliver on that anymore and they hold the people governments hold the people in contempt for not a going along with their politics of us territory. yes i think so and i grieve for schwarzenegger a seminal moment it brought to power somebody who in the united states barack obama who was for the 1st time in i don't know how to member of the centrist democratic party he was somebody who seemed to be on the left of so this was a radical change but of course the radical change that his election promise and you had the 1st signs of the kind of popular insurrection against. what happened in 2008 with the occupy movement and that was very quick combination of obama.

taking it over and then you had the other police of breaking it up and that was. what then happened was that that resentment at that movement spun. taken over by donald trump who was a kind of a right wing populist and who came dramatic change to dramatic change being. end of the wasting money on foreign wars and of importing cheap labor and you know capitalism making capitalism fan for ordinary people that is what he promised in 2016 that was enough to terrify the political to war that the political establishment launched against donald trump is kind of where we are now which is the this crisis of legitimacy don't be one of the things i think is really interesting is that the the astutely the new liberal order will not give any kind

of credence or legitimacy to populists on the left or the right and i think that's really the will go where a lot of the the anger comes from here because you know you had like a bernie sanders character very popular among very wide variety of demographics but it was taken from him again because they and they don't want and if you if you look at the. publican party the g.o.p. has not changed at all you know just because trump's they're ok i mean they do everything in their power just for him ok it's still these populist. fringes is where we're told in the media they're the ones that are being denied any kind of legitimacy and actually public toral access go ahead joe. well we have to look back to 2008 what happened who paid for bailing out the banks we were told the banks are too big to fail they must not be allowed to bear the brunt of the crisis of their own systems we must pay and how do we pay the working class all over the

world has paid by losing a condition security you know public service is dismantling of privatization of everything that used to be provided for us out of there with taxes out of the wealth that we create but it was a kind of guaranteed minimum that social services where they and they've been taken away privatized scrapped whatever and in different situations when they happen to be this huge attack on people's living standards and you know recently we were told just before this crash we're being told here how brilliant employment situation was now we haven't seen such good employment levels since the 17th but it was patiently a lot hateley like when they talk about this recovery was recovering big bubbles in the stock market and a bubble let's not forget is a sign that something's wrong in the productive economy and means in fact there

isn't someone productive to invest your capital so your gambling on the stock exchange on the property market on the currency markets all these bubbles are not a sign that something is good isn't there a sign that something is inherently wrong. and meanwhile our billionaires are gambling and taking thought years off each other on the stock market what's happening to all repeat. 0 hours contracts flex flexible working which means you don't know what you're working but you may be who is ready to just in case your employer wants you know say pay no pension no job security nothing minimum wage all below recently there was an outbreak of coding in leicester in britain and were . we finding the conditions that lead to that lester is a town takes so many factoring. and there was an obstacle in the financial times about cities so looking about the wages that are being paid which will cost minimum

wage and everybody knows it everybody knows that's what's happening there's no health and safety there's no. welcome conditions and being thanks we'll pull pounds now but everybody knows the health and safety net tax people the national government the local government they all know and they use when can it and let it carry on lake george what if the thing that it what we're seeing right now is a particularly during this crisis because it's a huge crisis if you don't have a job ok particularly. if you had taken a hit in 2008 but we just see more and more transfer wealth going upward with it in a time when we need it going in the reverse direction ok just to save those middle classes and the working class because government policies all cross the western world much more so in the united states as if the middle class isn't really necessary anymore they're paid they're trying to replace them ok with other demographics go ahead george yes yes no that's exactly the case it's there is

a transfer of wealth. moving upwards and that's exactly what was said by warren buffett when he said yes as a class war that's going on and my class is winning everyone took this as a joke but i've got a witty man warren buffett is but if i go off it reveals something fundamental about the capitalist economy. what is interesting is that. in this election that isn't coming up in that it is going to get presidential actually nice as this issue isn't and in fact instead of focusing on who is the enemy who should be you know they are the focus of our. the election party of the left is focusing its and go on the middle guts you know when when hillary clinton talked about the basket of deplorable she meant the middle class hopefully get the unite they hear the one percent but that is the

middle class they're the enemy and you can be sure that any. democratic administration will wage a war against the people that they consider wall street as the enemy they don't consider the financial speculators the enemy. because of the sweat shop owners the enemies it's the ordinary what the enemy we're doing is particularly in the united states and they're focusing everything on trump because there is a lane in politics right now and it is it is to get you to go in and rescue main street in the middle class nobody wants to do that because it is just you just told us you know they told us there was no money there's plenty of money apparently ok so trump will not make that bold move and go and save the middle class working people and of course a biting you get there a talking point from you can see i mean this is such it's so gaping with what was happening right now and no one is bold enough to step up just to go ahead george

the touched on something really important the majority of the media are busy trying to distract our attention from the real problem which is of course dealing inequalities created by capitalism which is built into it but there is a crisis of legitimacy increasingly people feel this instant doesn't work here we have to go to a hard break america the new recession a lot of legitimately say are. we go to work some straight home.

shots seemed wrong. rowles just don't call. me baby yet to shape our disdain he comes to advocate and in detroit equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. choose to look for common ground. on my in the news and mighty i'm not one. of them so i dump anyone from. the bowels of a time about what members of. listened as yvonne was more about the. one with more than the side of both of my. seeing the following to him but i'm before.

him by the. now i'm by the imam obama. lead. welcome back to cross top where all things are considered to remind you we're discussing a crisis of legitimacy. it was go back to brazil judge the right to go into the break you want to finish your point right here. peter so there you see a growing sense of disconnect between the people and their government between the

people in the institutions of the state which increasingly are seen not to be on their side not to be neutral not to be arbiters of justice well to be very much aligned with the interests of the rich and ruling class. the judiciary police you know the education system all of it over these last 10 years has been really exposed and then of course we've had covert crises which has accentuated exacerbated all of those inequalities in the system and laid them back you know like never before at suny extent that we are now seeing a growing number of serious listeners in the media not the ones in the media that george is talking about how busy trying to divert our attention but the but the one i was in the financial times or politico who are writing you know think piece is saying if we are not careful there's going to be a revolution i don't say and that you know as well as well back in 2014 plutocrat

an oligarch who nicanor billionaire wrote an article i don't know if you guys still recalled the pitchforks. and he expresses it talked about the massive and growing inequality in the world and in the western imperialist countries particularly the us but the u.k. is not. a way that growing inequality seeing how people felt about the system and about the rich and about their future and he said if we don't do something to halt this. this disparity in this growing disparity then we are going to be in trouble we like to tell ourselves but we will be and marching will grow to be. piece in the financial times just 2 weeks since he's saying the same things now these people hate me want to say the system they want capitalism to be makes what people in our state and placed what they're unable to recognize is

what marx and engels pointed out 150 years ago which is this growth in disparity of income and situation is hard into capitalism it isn't a way out and that is how the system works right now with the crisis of capitalism it's so glaring that everybody can see it and it educates but when it was just what they do is george is one of the big you've already mentioned deplorable zoomie i can't you know when you and i were both coming up in the world there was a pretense of some kind of objective body from the media that is news breaks that i mean you know you know we know that you know the people voted the wrong way and they had it in there there's no forgiveness for that whatsoever and that goes into this. canceling of culture or censorship i mean it what it and what's really quite glaring is that don't talk about social income

inequality talk about all these other cultural issues the cultural wars because if you as john pointed out if you start really seriously looking at what's going on right now the situation is it is in the long term it's untenable go ahead george prevails in an election the losing side will simply not accept it and this is in fact what happened in 2016 in which they were losing side was at will ditch are meant to sabotage an election result the accept and we can be sure that whoever will be the losing side this november will react in the same way and of course that is it works very much too early in the its own advantage. no one wants to raise the issues of how. all of the benefits of the economy flow to the one percent much less the one percent no one else gets anything out of it instead we have

a warring factions hating one another who are themselves hardly beneficiaries of the system but george i kind of that that touches on to the council culture thing here just one of the things that's very interesting to me is that you know we. presented this illusion of choice right here there is no choice here ok and the culture wars is a nice diversion and they do give the impression that there is a choice here because at the end of the day they're going to protect the neoliberal order that's what is made the one percent and the good in the political elite of the media elite so wealthy and so content because if you talk about. income and social inequality then you're going to have to approach it differently but you know let's talk about statues let's talk about cancel kocher and all of that is a diversion not everything is racist apparently now you know if you start dealing with social inequality i think the whole issue of racism will dissipate very very

quickly go ahead. well you know these latest economic crash which is being you know the narrative is that it's all the fault of the pandemic but of course the reality is this crash is in fact it was financial commentators for the last 34 years it was coming it's built into the system it systemic crisis that was long overdue kind of it's probably over the edge but in fact it was already starting to just explore you know looked at and started to happen so we have this huge crisis which is deepening inequality and i really revealing the nature of a lot of the so-called employment that we had incredibly insecure and on top of that we've had the cloven crisis which is again exacerbated importance here and showed us how it's the must essential people who we need to keep society running who are the least paid the least respected more like keep jobs more like to be done

by the poorest and most oppressed workers all these inequalities are being deepened and of course what we're seeing as well is that women ethnic minorities are disproportionately bearing the brunt of the health crisis and the economic crisis and that so this whole deepening of all the inequalities in our society is something that they are really worried about us looking at properly and hence this move to turn the narrative away from capitalism creates inequality towards what people hate black people men hate women you know we must fight against the symbols of sexism we must fight against the symbols of racism to divert us from understanding the root causes you know when it comes to i'm not opposed to reeducate people who have begun to change but you've got to put the cart before the horse what's creating your attitudes we have our media pumping. see

immigration and anti you know anti black people richly x. house incessantly stealing our hands little kinds of stupid have to choose which then we'll then blame oh how i think you know if you want to get rid of racism 1st you've got to get it because of racism which is this system inequality. when people are left with some how do you know that without it it would be quite easy for them to be really educated but i don't. consider that i'm not happy with that term ok i get a little bit. nearing for me however i mean george is. tearing a page from what we just heard here i mean it's tells me that the elites have no answer it's ok because. the status quo serves their interests and they're not willing to take or with it it's really quite amazing as we were you know we had the case of f.d.r.

which you know his political posts say he was going to bring socialism to america bring communism to america but in fact f.d.r. saved capitalism save the system ok and and again his song it's because a lot of people are politically motivated they don't see it that way i mean what i find really quite glaring here is that they're not there staring into the abyss these elites because it's it's an untenable situation to continue and i agree coben just get over it just it actually moved the curtain a way for us to have a real clear view of what's going on go ahead george know that's exactly it it is an untenable situation and they answer on the part of the elites will be to wage a war against. the masses of the people who are not benefiting at all from the system and this is what the council culture is about it's it is

about and that's. a kind of an expression of rage against. ordinary people against their beliefs against their institutions and so we have this bizarre situation where the elites the wealthy one percent are declaring that who is unacceptable who are the real villains it's a ordinary people with their suppose of racism sexism homophobia islamophobia the hillary clinton's the laura bulls they are the enemy not us not we who you know who you know vast sums of money for doing nothing will be you know who are simply sucking money out of the economy no the enemy is you know the ordinary people and we will see an expression of this rage on the part of the elites. after the november election should the democrats win and and and they will be no you know

move towards equality because they put the some kind of a socialist economic agenda that will come about no that's not going to be the case it will be the agenda again of sucking jobs out financial ization of the economy and those who feel upset about is those who feel that they were lost out of the system will be punished by told be told what did terrible people they are and that this is indeed their just punishment you know you've talked about this many times the country will explode irrespective of the outcome here the doors are running on the town real quickly i think we're taught to hate each other because i think that the vast majority of people have actually a lot of commonality it's ok and i think it's the elites in the media they're the ones that teach us teach us they hate each other because we are most of us the vast majority of us have the same needs and desires i'm absolutely convinced of that but when you want to pulling cancel culture and you want to bring in statues you want to bring up $1619.00 in all of this year that is just to intentionally mix things.

so they don't talk about what we're talking about in this program you know get rid of cancel the culture keep why don't we start canceling social inequality last 20 seconds yes and the demolition of the statues serve 2 purposes on the one hand. that the militia is a distraction you know instead of addressing serious economic issues those addressing serious needs the not being met you get symbolic outcomes destruction of statues but they also serve another which is to do you moralize the public to show the public that this is what we think of you this is what we think of your history this is what we think of your culture we're tearing it down because we think you are rubbish and you have to accept that you are rubbish and this and you will be told forever that you are rubbish and that that's why they.

did this tearing up statues down is you know how such a powerful presence and you need still go to the bank laughing all the way that's all the time we have i want to thank my guests in bristol and in budapest and i want to take our viewers watching us here are you see you next time remember. during the vietnam war u.s. forces also bombs in neighboring laos it was a secret war. and for years the american people did not know. how much anticipation miles every battle between per capita paul was soon in history millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country. thing going to continue to happen. even today kids in laos full victim to bombs drop.

decades ago is the us making amends for the tragedy in laos what helped to the people needed in that little land on. israel media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. isolation whole community. are you going the right way or are you being led so. direct. what is true what is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or

a maybe in the shallows. fresh black lives matter protests descend into violence in new york while anger surges elsewhere after new video shows a police officer restraining a suspect by putting pressure on his neck. saying in the us florida records another record daily increase in hope infections also the country's biggest surge is the start of the outbreak a russian critical care doctor working in new york city says the crisis is of a scale health workers there have never seen before. many of my colleagues including those who were here during the 911.