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tv   Cross Talk  RT  December 4, 2020 4:30pm-5:01pm EST

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start answering questions just desperate it's hard. to survive a tear edition got to be. definitely don't want to be going to try to jump on cope's. you're more likely to walk free if you're rich and guilty or if you're poor and. you've got 2 eyes and 2 heirs and one mouth. so you should be seen in here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice easy going to dig yourself a little. fellow
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and welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered on purely about continuity or change this is what's being asked when considering a potential buy foreign policy trump made it a point to undo obama's legacy when biden do the same to trump like this or is this all only rhetorical continuity drives foreign policy not the occupant in the oval office. to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest peter who is making those that he's professor of history and director of the nuclear studies institute at american university as well as co-author with all over stone the untold history of the united states in kingston we have it like petro he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island and we have william b. use of former that nickel director at the n.s.a. . originally crossed up rules and i think that means in jump in anytime you want
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and i was appreciate it ok nick let me go to you 1st year and there's an awful lot of speculation of what i have potential biden foreign policy would be but we have to add in the last 3 and a half years almost 4 years of the the media and the foreign policy blah always going on the opposite side of whatever trump is doing which is actually quite juvenile but that's what they've been doing and now it seems like the same thing is happening anything the big orange man did has to be reversed is this how you see it because i'm watching mainstream media coverage of it and they're just tying them also themselves into pretzels go ahead. i think the. foreign policy we're like that is under joe biden it will be a rehash of the foreign policy oh the obama presidency and a continuation of what might go back as far as clinton.
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the issue here is there was a lot less going on in the trumpet ministration because the truck was never able to articulate an alternative foreign policy to the mainstream and he never got control of his administration and as you say the media portrayed everything about him negatively so. there's just i think going to be a return to a sort of liberal nostalgia which will fail in the long run because that was actually the turn to get elected in 2016 peter let me go to you and then the climate brings up the most important point here i mean if they want to go back to you know be nostalgic the going back to failure but nobody's in the mainstream media seems to point that out ahead peter. the going back to failure is correct the clinton obama policies were policies that double. down george w.
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bush had brought us to for that so for the most part we saw we're seeing in the new foreign policy team he supported the invasion of afghanistan supported the invasion of iraq supported the invasion of libya supported the sending of arms massive amount of arms into syria an operation 10 percent come or that turned . a minimalist kind of uprising into this massive bloodshed slaughter that's gone on they supported the bombing of syria when obama was hesitant to do so so these people then i'd offer a lot of hope in terms of alternative vision i'm not quite as positive about the triumph our policy peters you seem to be now i'm not i'm. getting it limits at all and then he didn't get as involved in any new wars but it pulls us out of all of the international agreements that the us should have been in there
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starting with. the i.n.f. treaty the open skies treaty the world health organization the paris climate accords so that is that policy was disastrous and in many ways what trump was pushing for with this kind of existential threats that are even more dangerous than the obama clinton policies were so he let me i will not accomplish back on that i think that's coming out in debatable here but that's the whole point of his program william what are your thoughts here because as the last weeks of this administration before potential by the administration we see all hands on deck regarding iran is this is this an intentional if quote unquote suit by people in january well it could be i mean i can see by comedians and see others do is a throwback to old thinking and all ways of doing business in the world i mean i just don't see. i see s.
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on the horizon and the more wars continued conflict around the globe and i don't see them getting into anything as positive as i don't i don't i think the un needs to wake up and i'm like a lot of your other guests i think they are my disagreement behind that i think the un is really not doing a very good job and then especially the world health organization other kinds of things late ledge they're doing an awesome think that they're not they're not really coming across with the truth anybody and that's really bad that's why trump was elected i mean people in his country were really sick of all the lies and that we've been by all the administrations prior both democrat and republican didn't matter they were all just lying to us and leading us down of almost half well ok on the plays is that would explain delete to me at least why foreign policy wasn't even discussed during the campaign as a maverick nothing was discussed during this cycle here whatsoever and again going
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back to the 2016 you know that was the 3rd presidential election cycle that people voted against war but what are we going to get in january i mean it is it is truly amazing how the media can say it on p.b.s. there was a woman talking heads she said the biden team they're professionals and they're apolitical i mean what kind of nonsense is the public being fed these are an os not julie political people stunningly ideological and they have they all have the inability to learn from mistakes mykola well i tend to agree let me say a few words about the prospect of war. i happen to believe that no american administration wants war when they want his american supremacies and today supremacy can best be achieved not by war but by manipulation
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manipulation of the media in particular wars tend to be unpopular because the results are often ambivalent and certain it's much easier to achieve mastery in coersion by manipulating perceptions and i think you we're going to see a lot of that in the new administration i mean you know just a month ago i mean that's exactly what we got with bush and obama and the results were disastrous i mean you know what was it you know we have to say to the kurds you know nobody now had ever heard of occurred until trump out of syria ok the public wouldn't know current if it hit them in the face ok i know the history of the kurds and i have great sympathy for them all right but i mean this is a sham rot peter they keep doing this year so maybe you can go back to these these these old rhetorical turns of hand but the results of the same. the end let's the people that want i do think that people want wars people want some people
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a small group of people want to war with iran for example they're there rubbing their hands waiting for that possibility but of course the american people don't vote on the go ahead here the trump administration has from the very beginning been looking for a war with iran and in fact you've got people like mattis who have tried to curb them in that regard but as they don't want to war with north korea they almost provoked the war with north korea in 2017 and that was very very dangerous but it was really iran that most of these people were thinking about it was or they were iran a phobic and they hated iran so. but the thing is that the defense sect. there does not necessarily need war in order to profit immensely critical people are up to their eyeballs and dead with defense contractors whether it's the west executive visors that floor no i and blink and started or the center for
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a new american security miss you there all are these think tanks and organizations that are in bed with the defense contractors so they don't necessarily need war what they need is a world with fill of enemies that can justify these massive loaded defense budgets and if you look at what they're talking about it's kind of a more modern approach. when we talk about whether people learn anything and it's not clear what they learn or how much they do learn but you take somebody like robert gates who is also supporting every war we got involved in what it looks like obama was going to bomb syria was it 2014 gates said you know date's was opposed to it and he said don't these people learn anything about unintended consequences don't they see what happened in afghanistan iraq libya you know so gay scott that a certain point and he was as hopeless as the rest of them so maybe maybe blinken
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and you know can and not all these other clowns will have said well have learned something from that experience that you are have so much more hope than not did you hear from william i saw you just sending please go ahead well to see them continuing the old policies a regime change any regime they don't want they're going to try to change either through borzou or through you know cia operations like they did with the rim i mean this is nothing i mean these people not learned anything down through history i think everybody is saying the same thing because you know it doesn't take a great deal to realize that wars don't necessarily turn out very good in any case so. for anybody and so you know it's a matter of how are we going to stay in afghanistan where you've been there 20 almost 20 years now for we're going to say when do we get out you know the british were there the russians were there all kinds of people the persians went there you
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know how many people or is it going to take the convinced that that we ought to stay out of afghanistan or other places like well i'm you know his let's remember there's plenty of people i mean i don't look at the whole afghan thing as a huge grist i mean they know there's there's no solution to it but plenty of people are making money hand over since ryan and they know the level of corruption they were just words on a very profitable business that's where that sense and it's a very profitable business for very few people but a lot of others suffer for it in truck nicholai is it is this just the inability to reimagine american foreign policy i mean is there such inertia then you know even considering a change of course here because i guess you know when you look at the form of policy blob and the people that biden are thinking about their own comfortable the weight of the the way things have been going since the end of the cold war i mean in their mind well it's not it's not really broken so why should be really fix it nicola beneath all positions for us foreign policy is changed man. and
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we haven't really had any serious discussion of what to do after containment given that the country that we were trying to contain oh no longer exists so what is our foreign policy to be with a new russia it's been close to 30 years and we still have no including a what. a u.s. foreign policy toward russia if the biden ministration resorts to the traditional democratic the pattern of traditional democratic administrations starting with moralizing about democracy and human rights it will confirm that there's nobody in this administration that has giving a thought that either but i would add one thing because we haven't talked about the
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s. word you have to hang on hold that point we're going to go to a hard break and after that heart breaks will continue or not our discussion on the potential by the state are. going to become more extreme and which leads to right when this is like breaking norms not really a good way becomes marty 3 satire in those the fictional transpiring right in as a strain is like a reality you. hear say data to. my social class law school class people who are also in poverty they 1st floor if you're born into a poor family if you're born into a minority family if you're born into a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people that i am
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a stiff 10 years old a here born into generational poverty. it's a. fight every day to meet your needs and their needs if your family. goes and then pick like humanity are extremely positive about the future because big points solves a lot of problems we face because if the money because of central banks even the nation state itself as a unit of governance has kind of outgrown its useful. welcome back to cross talk or all things are considered i'm peter lloyd don't remind you we're discussing what a potential by foreign policy would look like. we're
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going to go back to nickel and right before we went to the break he said you want to make a point go right ahead yeah i wanted to talk about something we haven't mentioned yet which is sanctions and sanctions have been a mixed bag for russia but on the whole i think more benefit more beneficial than negative thanks in part to sanctions the russia i would say has outgrown the u.s. in terms of its foreign policy thinking and it's going to continue there for its long term global strategy of building security greater security for itself and for the world through multiple r.t. and what the u.s. does it's going to be involved in all sorts of shenanigans over seas and trying to make regime changes it's just going to wait for the u.s.
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to come to terms with with the creation of a new role the global reality which is going to be increasingly shaped not by the united states and western europe. but by the brics and the shanghai cooperation organization and other countries you know peter that's such a good point peter because you know living far away you know my faraway perch year the world is changing in such amazing ways but if you look at the mainstream media and many in mainstream narratives about foreign policy they come out of the networks and not of washington d.c. it into is if they decide how blind personally can they still think it was some 30 years ago and the world is really moving on and i think really the biggest difference here is that we do live in a multi-polar world except for the foreign policy refuses to recognize that they refuse to recognize reality that they recognize a big gradually it was 9th in 98 when charles krauthammer leading the conficker and
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this was a you know polar moment at the soviet union is gone the united states will dominate the world for the next 30 or 40 years he said then after the invasion of afghanistan he upped it he said is that you know paul a moment is you know poli era is going to last indefinitely nobody should be allowed to challenge the united states anywhere on the planet and then after the sas there's in afghanistan and iraq he said well i got it wrong in 2060 said you know paul that era is over and the unocal of moment is coming to an end so there's some recognition that the world has changed and it's even changed from 2016. so what obama i mean biden comes out there and he talks about the united states got reassert its leadership in the world mean he's still in that mindset it's also a mindset that believes in american exceptionalism. all except this idea that the
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american united states is god's gift to humanity we've got some great wisdom that we need to that the world needs that's why we have to apply this kind of leadership that's wrong it's outmoded. the world has moved on and the united states has got to adjust to a multi-polar world with russia with china with europe and eventually other countries also surging staking a claim to being involved in that kind of leadership now well peter i think you in far away been reading my notes because i was going to just ask you a question about exceptionalism here william but this is what he really gets down to i mean i started out in my introduction change of continuity but the thing that is set in everyone's minds revolves around is exceptionalism here and that isn't dead and it's been proven to be a dead end but they that's something that they just can't let go of and it's part of the popular culture as well ok i mean i grew up in the midwest ok that's very
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much our parcel of the mindset you're and in it and in the end it is you know it's benevolent in their sense ok but when you would apply it to policy it's now so benevolent here and that's the problem here go ahead well i just think you're right absolutely no they don't they don't look at a cooperative effort among other countries it's more or less it's our way or the highway you know and that's fundamentally what's going on in washington i mean even treat our own all the people united states are treated the same way and we're deplorable as you know we don't even we don't really realize what's important in the world so just be quiet sit back and and just some point everything we're doing and that's been crap from the beginning that's let us down so many parents were in the you know deep debt endless mors all kinds of. crumbling infrastructure all kinds of stupid decisions made out of washington d.c. and you know that it just they just don't make marriage based descendants any more than they don't make marriage based decisions and what they've done isn't and
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probably a topic for another program is that they've taken their regime force regime change playbook and they're playing it on the american people now that's one spot down to hear anything. it this way although it's not containment was not the issue it was the great expansion that's why hillary clinton wanted to move nato into ukraine and move move nato right up the russian they needed an enemy and they wanted they characterized russia as an enemy so they can expand nato and their control of the world that's what's going on i mean you know and this is an innate goes into eternal quest to figure out why it exists ok well here you have if he does it happy we expand ok thanks i mean it's ludicrous and it's very dangerous nicolay let me go here you mentioned russia i mean in me you know we have in the incoming potential administration some really hard core russia gaiters i mean are they going to say never mind it doesn't matter anymore because each can't unring that bell that bell
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is still ringing very very loud and political discourse you can't turn around and just say well we're going to try and reset it can't happen and that's what i've warned in this program for years is that when you make these kind of claims they're very difficult it's impossible to take back and i've also said many times in this program the united states and russia do not have to be friends but they must never be enemies go ahead nick. oh i think you're right the administration the foreign policy establishment has painted itself into a corner with respect to russia which is why i think from or from the perspective of russian foreign policy makers there's very little to engage with them all the initiative in terms of setting a better tone than what we have right now has to come from the united states but russia is in an advantageous situation because it is increasingly thanks to
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sanctions again self-sufficient you know in can wait out and plus it has a strategy which the united states is not out of the united states is falling back to containment without containment and without positing nato as a rationale in and of itself the united states has no strategy because of the eastern europe and. eurasia so i think russia's in the in has the ability to simply wait for. a reason to say i'm among the u.s. foreign policy elite but he it will have to be some he with a track record like nixon and maybe a letter like a nixon who has the empty russia credentials but but can find
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a way now to articulate what is an essential necessity just getting along with russia in order to solve some of the world's bigger problems you know peter weigh in on that here because when i look at you know listen to policymakers here in and people that are very much vested in russian foreign policy they think that they basically echo what nicholai said there isn't any we've reached out her hand long enough i mean if you want to talk and you have to reach out here and. because they think the there's an exhaustion here of patients ok and and you know when we look at here with the new administration coming in is it you know i am who everyone smile see on the op ed page of the new york times and you know we should be careful you mean in the united states because russia and china are close together and i always laugh when i read these articles like have you been living under a rock the last decade or 2 decades ok i mean this is an unforced error on the part of the foreign policy establishment in the united states go ahead
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but i'm not optimistic about the situation when i look at the people that jake sullivans and the anthony blinken these people have made their career based on in large part hostility toward russia they were there and then all in favor of the nato expansion up to russia's doorstep they were all in favor of the various wars we've been talking about and they're all in favor they're very hostile toward russian policy in crimea they're all behind the ukrainian coup so they're not very optimistic but and we look at the situation that's what frightens me a united states and russia have more than 90 percent of the world's nuclear weapons between us we've got a couple 1000 pointed at each other on hair trigger alert we've got you know this is a good reason why the believe how many scientists move the hands of the doomsday clock 200 seconds before midnight the close as it's ever been and we don't understand
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each other where hostile to each other to biden has called putin a thug it's hacked trump is putin's puppy in this hit back and said that you know criticize biden's anti russian rhetoric so that. you would you agree with me i mean there's hostility in this relationship but the majority of it is on one side ok constantly. in because i think because you know i think's playing to people here isn't this is one of these historical oddities where you have hostility in a relationship but the people i meet every single day here in moscow they still have a basically a positive attitude towards the united states maybe not its foreign policy but as a country as some people it's culture and then i know people that have worked at our team that left the united states because they got so tired of the hostility you know when you're a russian you know what are you doing here i mean it's really one direction very on
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i find that on a very personal level every time i come to russia all of my colleagues everybody i meet talks about how they want to be friends of the united states i never encountered that in the united states a similar attitude except among a handful of colleagues who are like thinkers but not in terms of the general public you turn on the media a mass media here and it's anti russia is just the wrong back position it's always assume you know it's talk about russian interference and $26.00 named eric in the election you know and then you get all these talking heads saying this is an act of war russia going to europe nobody thinks about us involvement in everybody's elections including russia the elections over the years nobody talks about it talk about sanctions the need to sanction russia or to say that nobody that is good will call for sanction in united states or baiting iraq lately a levo causing a 1000000 deaths made on a scale that's worse any of the things that i might be critical of it's
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a play on russia doesn't mean i love what's happening in russia or that i'm a 100 percent supporter but i think that the disk this proportion the lack of judgment is just appalling there right now and it's very interesting his head i mean rapidly one of timing fascinating discussion i want to thank my my guests and because they kingston and baltimore and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. and next time remember her. always gauge with. don't get into any conversation or start answering questions just. to survive.
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you're more likely to walk free if you're rich. or poor. you've got. one now. so you should be seen in here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice easy going to. the wrong. belief to say proud. to come to. the trail. common ground.
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pull that crawl on is a bird friends necron in france are going through a very dangerous period actually the talk is president not just france to get rid of its leader relations between the countries head to new lows. drugs john buys up about to roll out its vaccine in britain seeks to prevent the us its chief executive admits it might not stop those who take up reading the fine run. on logo slams what it calls fabricated accusations against john that's up to russia city to news agency charged with violating e.u. sanctions.


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