tv Cross Talk RT March 5, 2021 4:30am-5:01am EST
a low in welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter labelle russia e.u. relations right an impasse the kremlin has made it clear it will no longer tolerate the e.u. lecturing about values and so-called international norms and the russians have had enough of the e.u.'s interference in russia's internal politics the e.u. refuses to treat russia as an equal partner until this changes this bilateral relationship appears to be on hold. to discuss these issues and. more i'm joined by my guest john lott put in paris
he's a university lecturer in history of political philosophy in brussels we have look we've a he is an independent journalist and in cork we cross to geoffrey robertson is america's professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy original macross up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to john in paris if you heard my introduction here until the e.u. or respects russian treats russia as an equal partner this relationship isn't going to move anywhere it is a it is basically in a deep freeze right now and i and i personally i think it's the e.u. that has to take the 1st step but i don't think they're up to it go ahead john i totally agree i don't think there's any prospect now of the relationship improving there are very few voices in the european union who are in favor of him proving you can count them on the fingers of one hand. and instead to the vast majority of
european politicians want to break off or break down relations with russia as much as they can for a whole host of reasons of which i think the most important is that they actually thrive on this notion of themselves as being morally superior to russia russia or is the other europe russia is the other europe russia is the europe they don't want to be it's a state which they regard as. reactionary nationalistic religious patry i'll take. and so on all the things all of our use that they reject europe the european union wants to be an historical post national and so on and that's why russia is like a sort of guilty conscience for them and they they have their own internal political purposes they have to. try. and say they hate russia and when i say
internal political purposes i mean that in the strongest possible sense of the term because just as in the united states of america conservatives and others in india they basically conservatives in europe very often attacked as being russian 5th columnists in other words it serves a very straightforward political purpose which is to insult and discredit people who don't agree with various aspects of western foreign policy so for all those reasons i don't think that there's any prospect at least not in a short or even medium term of any improvement same same question to you. because it's you know this kind of thing but what john just said there and it seems like be you just hasn't pride in humorous is when he gets down to go ahead i think that's certainly part of the story. point you know if russia the relations do great. it won't be much of
a loss i mean that's one of the points the russians and i keep should we don't have much of a relationship we d. and we have had since 2000 and full to be sure buffett be prepared to say ok necessary we will break relations for 2nd point is that you have the e.u. isn't europe e.u. isn't. it the e.u. there's also an independent european strikes and their relations are with russia a very very different group really should jet some very hostile act mistakes some very core relationships is not not not so this is something that i would love rove is always trying to say you know what we really wants to strengthen our electoral relations with our european european sites that's that is our priority update that is what they say tilt to judy i mean. russia's been criticized for having for seeking by a lot of relationship an independent state because the criticism is the are trying to divide. the e.u. but the e.u.
is already divided i don't understand why you have to blame it on russia let me go to luke here look i mean i think the way i look at it you know i very pragmatic i'm a conservative and the way i look at it it's just one big headache you don't want to negotiate you don't want to have good relations you don't want to have a good neighborhood well it's fine you know we don't have to do it there are other places in the world to look to and have relationships with it with it's a pity i think but i mean it's ended up being one big headache and with just a burrell's visit here just in completely embarrassed the european union he did not love the routes go ahead. yes well i would defend borrow for one site i think that a very old in a way older than sage but this time i think is elephant was a great help he doesn't want to to close the door and to avoid any relation with russia ease is the law who was looking at it in
a different way while all politicians interruption parliament where i hope there is a group or politically correct in bashing russia that is the politically correct and special russia but i think it could improve i'll have a little. you know word of optimist mix that with the russian vaccine or vaccines i should say it might improve a little even this is not a lead to say that well the russian vaccine will be welcome you know once of course the e.u. may or can medicines agency says yes just by the way takes an awful long time for that you may to give anything back to any backseat but still you know if that happens you have 8 countries in europe say we're interested with a russian vaccine sent me it might change russia would be good guys again well until i mean it i mean that what i would like that scenario i think has been offered i mean it is very interesting is that the western embassadors in ukraine
having an oversized influence on ukrainian politics told the ukrainian government you can't take the russian vaccine this is the kind of ridiculousness that you get to your big turn here but that the problem the way i look at it is that nation states and i know that's an archaic idea for the european union i guess the nation states have interest you know why did it was talking about values ok why do you have to come and talk about what's wrong with your civil society what's wrong with your democracy you know it why do you what do they need to go around lecturing people they've got their own problems and russia up until recently. it continued to extend the hand and now they're saying i can't say it on t.v. but you know what i'm thinking go ahead john well i think as i say that's because they need to maintain their internal narrative. and. somebody mentioned the vaccines were found alive and said a week or 10 days ago that europe had to buy vaccines together as
a block because otherwise european unity would be threatened and and that was the reason why the vaccine rollout was slower it was a terrible thing to say because it showed that she puts european unity about how our health of european citizens but the extent of her ideological line this is that i revealed and that's why i say that she's quite capable of doing things in the name of european ideology which are against european interests so i agree i agree with your question that there is the. dichotomy between on the one hand over the discourse on values and real interests i do agree with that and of course the big issue which these individual sanctions hide is not stream to gas pipeline because like like geoffrey i hope that there might be some good news hiding in there somewhere and he's absolutely right jeffrey
is absolutely right to say that the bilateral relations are better than the relations with the bloc although that's not forget that any one country out of the $27.00 could have veto to sanctions and it didn't and even countries which are quite friendly towards russia like hungary for example has not decided to veto them it could be it could be that this bluster about novelli and the individual sanctions against russian officials is a way for germany to say well we've done a lot of sanctions but we're not going to. do the not stream to gas pipeline sanction we're going to complete it and that's my hope and i think on balance that that's probably what's going to happen you know as they in a valley sanctions are a sideshow well i mean it certainly inside russian about me is a sideshow ok in a political entrepreneur and he's why widely seen as me as
a provocative or connected with the west is widely held ok but you know jeffrey is it is is it worth the e.u. to have such frosty relations over such a dubious character is not about me having amnesty international to come up off the list as a prisoner of conscience because well he's a bigot ok among a lot of other things ok and his videos are on you tube for anyone to see ok well there well there are shadow banning and the platforming people they allow that stuff is they don't so it isn't about me where the jeff go ahead. i think you know i agree with john on this is the valley after you know could prove to be you know kind of upset as long as nothing more out of the sun about me it should not it's not about it should die in prison or something like down the coast olympics. you know could blow up again and yet i mean that the reason sanctions they you rush to know about the case i mean the fact it was a. hypocrite
a critical juncture acb of people. what would signal a really fundamental breakdown in russia here relations and not just russia here relations but relations with europe as i hope will be if they get somebody might like chancellor you know a little stream to all or if it was really major economic sanctions no i don't see any sign of that at the moment so i kind of tend to be on the optimistic side doing what we believe lugano. shay's optimism. on 20 for this race is done you know rochelle european states or russia need. right and each one know mothers that make sure the and the current. make missiles which are much easier to russian each every relationship. they need each every russian to ongoing conflicts and issues in the middle east and in the factory they need each other relationships are mental issues security issues the whole problem
of the rise of china and when will the fist there's an underlying kind of. commonality of interest. you know what will stop the e.u. and your countries from from taking extra steps to get i mean you look at joseph burrell's you know spectacle here i mean that doesn't give me much hope i mean it was such an embarrassment for everyone involved here but look you know before we go to the break here the biden ministration is just announced another huge military package of offensive weapons to ukraine now and the europeans are going to step up and say this is our neighborhood too or they just going to go along with that ok because that is something that is going to it and there are red lines all over the place here that that is something that is very very important to russia's security if you have a hostile country when you're bored being supplied with sophisticated military equipment from a western country in nato yet 30 seconds before we go to the break go ahead. well i
think our 1st 4 quickly for our own was trying to i think it's what's important is that mrs merkel as always has been elected in the region where the trouble who writes in from our maker so she is really for it she doesn't say too loud that she's for it so that's the greatest i've been so i know i i don't think she's for i think she's desperate for a case because yes because if they don't and let me remind everyone it north stream one was is in place it's the 2nd one was merkel's idea ok you know what i have to go to wishing operate gentlemen enough to let short break we'll continue our discussion and be you russia relations stay with r.t. . is your media a reflection of reality. in
a world transformed. what will make you feel safe from. tyson nations or community. are you going the right way or are you being so. direct. what is true what is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or remain in the shallows. welcome back to crossed up where all things are considered i'm peter about to remind you we're talking about the impasse of russia e.u. relations.
ok let's go back to john and paris here look at the dress they represent to break north stream to what you want you want to take up the issue of what i was talking about when in reference to ukraine go ahead what i find you're quite right to say that the supplying of extra weapons to ukraine they will wait if. the trump administration by the way was already supplying some lethal weapons but if in fact spots are being stepped up then actually is you know an extremely unfriendly act what i find so incredible about this is that the european union as you say firstly they should be saying this is our neighborhood france and germany have presented themselves as mediators in the ukraine conflict and yet america seems to be taking the front seat and stirring the pot as usual but european leaders as well protected the germans have also said very strongly that they are against u.s.
extraterritorial sanctions against european companies working on not stream to so how does that work if american extra tauriel sanctions are wrong for europe for europe why are european exit or extra territorial sanctions ok when they're applied by europe against russia it just doesn't add up and i think the most sinister aspect of this this was the way that the european union followed slavish lee follows the american administration in particular of course now that trump has got is on china we heard joe biden saying the other day that china he understood china had to be strong it had to suppress internal dissent in order not to become a victim on the international stage biden made an explicit apology for political repression in china and ng and of course that by also meaning in hong kong because he said that's how china worked and if it didn't do that then it would fall prey to external powers as an absolutely incredible thing to say about or
a single party one power. totalitarian dictatorship but europe with all its discourse about values it does the same thing because. i think the federal to december taste at the end of december a few weeks ago. the european union the most boris defender of human rights in the world signed a multimillion investment package with china so the signal is no to russia and yes to china but how does that work out only on the level of human rights to me it doesn't make sense at all in any end tempted to at the end of the day if we look at the relationship with the new russia with the end of the soviet union in the rise of the european union the europe brussels has just had a message in that they think they've never really deviated from rushing you must become more like us ok and up until you do that we're going to treat you as a junior partner we're going to lecture you and john brings up
a such great point you know russia is is is singled out you know but not china not the other countries it's because they feel this need to save russia and this is in this this again this kind of. a morality play a post modern morality play to save the russian soul by genius go ahead come a great yeah. he did he wants to you know change russia interglacial itself and that's not going to happen until the e.u. gives up on that project is this clear this underlying conflict and tension you know the 2 things that really are the current situation as best success is the easiest clee inability to say fakes from the russian point of view so for example got deferral visit to moscow before he went to moscow he basically area austar statements relation to russia and when he gets there he raises all kinds of contentious issues in cohen including the bounty and then he suspects a price on iraq surprised when he got some some russian russian push back what's
going on there. the 2nd thing is to e.u. european states seem to have lost their fear of war. resisting to cross the escalation you know so you know some people. even. the baltic states it's a love. letter a flesh lack any place she places lassie for example ok we're more american shit i don't know why they need to see that i've been dismissed abide by you know i mean what in what american national interest does the blacks the present i completely mystified by look let me go to and i think i mean you know. both john and jeff brought up really good ideas is that you know i call it ideological possession there possessed with their ideology and then it happens inability to look at a situation room a different angle all of us remember the cold war very very well and that's how we
got through the cold war by saying well i won it getting inside the other guys choose that may seem us ok we survived the cold war because of not being on all sides ok but then there's the inability of continue that norma side of the european union i want to point out that you know when clinton 1st came to power he talked about you know is sick and new security arrangements from lisbon to lot of all star and they stayed with that for a while and then they to say well you know enough is no need to keep giving our ideas ideas bring your security in arms and they don't listen because they're listen i'm balancing relationships one has to take the knee and brussels of course cannot go ahead. well the war mongering is clearly on the side of america and i think there's been a great disappointment in russia. you know a few years ago already. they realized that medicare was not wanting to discuss
security and that you were stupid following not following the us nato is total disarray because trump the finger or where it hurts you know all the facts of your concern didn't pay for that incident so loudly as saying like was your mother omen thought the same john didn't say we can't be thomas' europe m. at centcom we've got reinforced nato i mean it's a total cockup. look at the relations with turkey turkey i mean come on they made all these gas and they threaten greece with war and france sells its plans to go to greece and it's really terrible so nato is in december 7th bad state if only because mrs all of a was minister of defense of germany for 8 years which was a total disaster. but so it's very bad situation decision out and as you say is quite dangerous because the younger generation doesn't realize the danger of the
cold war and the fact that a country like ukraine is incredibly dangerous. and in an story but it was the e.u. that made it more dangerous than ever before when they signed an agreement with you know kobe in there in cagny been dried and they turned their back on them and pretended that they even if they didn't even know who he was it was a disgrace what the european union did and it's a their fault well what what happened they should have turned around the next day and they should have sanctioned they'd be cool regime and say we know that we're going to stick by our agreement but no ok and of course you know that was a follow up but you know that was a take simulation of the new and telephone call which. we don't have to go into detail here but you know they wrecked the neighborhood in and they blame somebody else john go ahead. that's that's absolutely certain i mean we're going back 5 years now i mean that whole business was was horrible and
unfortunately it carries on i think one conclusion that we should perhaps draw from this is that despite what everyone says. and i'm conscious of saying this on r.t. russia does not have a substantial soft power program art is an extremely successful television channel and that's why everyone hates it but apart from r.t. there isn't really very much and in particular the contrast is striking with china i made a point about the double standards on china a moment ago and the reason for these double standards on china is very simple money there's masses of chinese money flushing of sloshing around both in terms of university foundations commercial money obviously huge chinese form is all arrested and large parts of the political establishment in western europe and as we know in
the united states and of course i'm thinking of the bidens here. in the pay of the chinese and it's very striking that russia maybe because she felt she had her fingers burnt with the soviet experience where the whole you know leadership of world communism ended up costing her a lot of money and she burned her fingers on it maybe for that reason but russia as i say very much the opposite of what everyone says does not have a substantial soft power program in the world they don't they don't pay people air pay lobbyists at least not very much i'm not i'm not aware of them paying very many lobbyists and this may be one of the reasons why they why the relationship is so bad. it may simply be a matter of money you know one of the things that's really interesting and those that follow the intricacies of liberal politics inside of russians and we've had over the last you know. a number of liberals by definition. ok but they're looking
at what's going on in the united states and the european union and they're horrified by this the postmodernist no cultural movements ok and and you know liberals here like you know that that they may find themselves in a very difficult situation because the vast majority of people that you know in russia. and some of the people i know here in moscow they say we don't want your culture and no way we don't want that here ok this is down pointed out. your family oriented tradition patriots super patriots ok and they him one of the things that happens that most people in the west don't understand is that all of the negative things said about russia in the media is and so we translated into russians and people know when people say about them and the same person i don't know anything about russia and how dare they say they're morally superior to us we
don't need it bashing ok don't you know we did a horrible event what have you done lately west of not having seen a lot of people here so in just a barrel comes waltzing in and telling her everybody how to live their lives people even liberals say we don't want to go in addition to themselves in the butt with this. pizza on the conservative i'm a liberal i'm not actually sure. you know share a lot of liberal pretty liberal criticisms of russian culture and understand russian society and my position is just a show i don't want to impose on russia should be outside you know i do hope that there will be an evolution in truly new shouldn't she. yes it is. it could have brought direction but that's the last he's seeking so. if you. agree with joe johns on about russia's lackey. there's
a. kind of wish at mo. i feel i need a bit of the systems in trying to reset the russians a lot of shit to also so i would like also. one of the reasons that russia doesn't have the x. rays is because he does not see out on the ambition to remake the well he's right joining the team posies writing about ours on the rest. of the coast was doing. so right near you know a source of power i'm doing the best about one man so i want to thank mike russell in torah what i'd like our viewers watching is your garden see you next that remember. when i was still seemed wrong. about all the old just don't call. me the world
yet to see how he's going to come that's a whole and in danger man because the trail. once and find themselves worlds apart. just in the common ground. the or tactics that can be used to get innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit i don't even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to you the person who falsely fast actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior once a false confession is taken the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that isn't. he. joined
me every thursday on the alex i'm i'm sure and i'll be speaking to the world of politics or. i'm sure i'll see of. the women in the british army report harassment and abuse from within their own ranks not the. complete. you it betrayed. you think simply makes out women feel. like. germany's largest opposition party accuses the government of political power play tricks placed on the surveillance for alleged links to extremist. texans lash out to joe biden after he labels the d. .