ah, a with welcome back to will the party with and frame in for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar, one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in ukraine. he's the so called to see cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said

that, you thing now is an old fashion has ever been a problem in more than day ukraine, a modern day. remember who i did was that was the nazi, but i do, i do not know enough about, you know, the politics of a claim today to be able to respond to that. i must say that, you know, sentences sounds very strange to what the western is and even here and it's where we have, you know, a population a, i think, you know, if i would have to advise mr. put in, i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his the will. now can i brought

in this out towards the issue on now says because i think the ip address on on 2 pillars. one is i, you know, exceptional or secret nature of any given. and the 2nd i thing is the, this issue on the, on the end of history that history has some predetermined more, as we know, people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is being reliable? not only let's say in ukraine, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so and nobody, you know, saying that this, this any, the not this but you know, many nationalities, things out. and so this is a list, and again,

i think that this choice of who owns it or not is a best one. but a, you mentioned that the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life. and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules for that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution, they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a, the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs? no, i refrain from making normative judgments, but it's a church believes that it has a direct line to,

to god and a christian it though. so america, it, which is actually becoming less and less so it is not so different from environmental when that, with in the center, not especially on both of those children in russia. but they believe there is a revival in, you know, it's all in design, you know, it's coming back. absolutely. but i think any self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem. that's for sure. but i think very few nations, in fact, only one nation plays that, you know, this is the one and only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian orthodox allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave even after the ukrainian crisis,

whether they are ready to stop, that they can be a multiplicity of developmental pass in the world and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune. i want agrees that so is the missionary stain in american foreign policy. and this is why we have those complaints for democracy and the campaigns for human rights which actually blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america. and there was some positive sinks about it, some negative things about it. but this is towards that. so is a mission mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy, and which is not prismatic. when you displace too much of this type of

a desire to be moral and imposed, it's morality on the hello. now and one of your articles he pointed out that i ukrainian experience in the last $1.00 and $1.00 is you put in the roof, less russian neighbor. what will reinforce israel's believe in self protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to draw such lesson or do you think there will be more countries that know? so relying on hooley, on, on the power of american to turns. i think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the so we have ministration obama gum and does

a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as i may please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and as a result of that, for those outgoing fields, particularly among though so that boy will do seen countries said so willingly man was out to shield against the hon. why don't i do so? and as a result of that, of course, we see the alignment was, isn't an but israel definitely has a self reliance. milton, from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience and am and a discerning false. as a, you know, zona investor guarantees on a false match. and her, i think, same king as made the mistake, hoping that the west will intervene on behalf. and despite those who helped said the worst case providing to claim. but no single american soldier cost the same

crumbled. can i also ask you about your a because your after very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs, even a sense. and that is very visible in germany, germany very dramatically rose and expenditures. is that something a natural to be expected? or is it something to be worried about in historical hindsight, being made the mistake of the end of the call. believing that they are going into a paradise and those are national security problem. so will be sort of after the defeat, those, the soviet union. so i'll close that whole thing. this is a awakening. pull you up. i'm not sure how don't get to

a less. and maybe it will fail, you know, is this dilemma between the guns i may fail to be, but those are those in use, the money for guns, but this room has to be seen, but clearly. so there's a change of ethical within, you know, in many or countries in on is a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice didn't butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interests based on that. the thing the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians, only the europeans,

but also much of the much of the will. that has absolutely nothing to do with, you know, a, all the arguments in russian to where, you know, we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in, oh, america. i, sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior of the country. so i need to suffer and to pay replies for continued was our policy a i don't really much is for as the sanctions were changed, i was a calculator. so fashion leadership. and of course the may still be seen. we shouldn't forget that is a sanctioned host. those. those are with the you up in particular is dependent on russian n, o g on russian weight. so it is so, you know,

in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause a mold damage, but or so, and i don't equation was the countries that can take a most definitely you know, for looking at history, i think her show is displayed their willingness to work a cost full well what it believes it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel training or any other contentious neighbors and partners. i hope the west can also learn from bad news only. yeah. possibly know why give out. com will be the people on the station. oh, okay. is there

a kindly delay has already and i was not going to join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated is a competent, so if it's melissa, we focus and that will sector the phone. you know, it's more polco crane by then. no one said, you know, one more piece. it's ok. so maybe this won't be, they'll come in a matter, you know, washington. well, as i mean, we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome. and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on will the part mm hm.

mm mm ah ah ah, with a loan that paid for the summer with the bulls then? yeah. like i'm on that single look i think now. so in formulation full and i would at last but i had i like that mission

with mother study. and what i did, what i did well, that's edible up. let me look it up. let me ask with a dealership in store book. when you go to meeting, you, you up. i'll say no problem. i lose the ball supposedly with everybody. oh great. when you go run it, that is almost ah

a one of the most generous and most destructive western concepts, giving rise to a conflict in your brain rekindling the old disputes about the right and wrong sides of history channel from russia on the west meeting somewhere in the middle to discuss with them now and join by in our president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor invites great

to see you, great to talk to you. thank you very much for time. my pleasure. you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political needs to be perceived as being on the right side of history. if we tried to put the apology center began to out of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective. what i'm do need this righteousness. i don't believe the high side of his study, basically is the history is written by the victim of the walls and good narratives that remains. if you would, jo, he's the one that is defined by the big by the way hitler was not really if you would have put more attention to the nuclear racial rather than non gauge, besides that, you might have been the victim. would it be? so i'd say to his story about that. now the tensions between russia and the west,

especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years it decades. and yet, when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally unprovoked. this totally unprovoked, certainly coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station, or is it a genuine blindness? on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very 10 years relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for security dilemma somebody's advice to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend it. at the same time it is set to its name. so this type of situation saline i, i definitely understand, is there russian,

a desire for larger margins of security? hey, we have to remember that nato expended is 12 closer to wash and both of those. and when it was promised to do the kremlin new, what else at the time? so, you know, this will not happen. i, i'm pretty sure that the nato doesn't have any offensive intentions, but there's the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss. that is the feels over russia and to have historic feel. so renovation from the, from the west. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma or in bar i'm you from here from west next prison. right? need to down and harbor any listed as the intentions in russia. but you know, looking at some of the recent action by major members in libby or in syria,

you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they have not the last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose a tac rush or rather than, you know, we're seeing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. i think i had an understanding was obama and, well, i mean, we slip in libya and silly i think by the license just you know, not as it is a middle east. so a things that they're like doing toby, as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide, you know, divide zillow. this is the obama,

this is my palm. and the title exists as it was doing the called the law. and i think that there is a understanding and so on how to run a foreign policy. they become a liberal or have illusions about what the international relations please. and this result of that for me miss both options on both sides. now, i take it from your writing that you take the full of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then you hear that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we

look at the ration from that perspective in russia had the choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. and to clarify, a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for a test to act upon its internet international, it's national interest. those choices, though, he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show obviously as many choices. and they chose to act in order to defend its national interest in ukraine. and good. this was following the silliest little warning to so if but say it was didn't, they could to us and i'm not making any judgment any more judge. i can understand their behavior overstayed that once a month, to kill it this way once

a week. and i would like to point out that it was to some extent was out caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia. you have to because that's all i have, i chuckle about russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that. but you know, in that the perception, so be, i want to ask you about a country where is that the addition of using phones now is really, you know, that you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and you is also this by being much smaller. it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously, and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and

i think to some extent, israel's, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of retribution is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on russia being has a, tend to flip all as to your math and for way too long. have russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided? doing things that this would have been by yeah, i really bye bye not to states paying attention to russian, secure with the consoles a or so by yeah, z huber lease. oh 1st. oh, crenan leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities and day. as a result though,

we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people who lose their lives, cities, i will destroy it. but this is this spelt of wall now, within the western camera, it has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa side, many western resolutions condemning rushes behavior, but it is also non dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or rationale in this company is lushin honestly clue no or no on hand. we all know, you know, dependent as united states or what's, what's the cause of pretty well. and then we are going to want to be in american care. on the other hand and not file form,

well i leave am 0 ocean. so me in celia. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate our military actions with against iranian thong, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure that this quality nation and continuous, which is dependent upon a russian good will in the national interest. and so we try to balance our no participation in, in what's called a western cam. a realistic position. this a v n a which is a name and to have to take it into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think the general outlook of is really fun policies take.

as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to be on india is doing the same amount of company. so doing the same, we're not alone in what you call this game, a new book. and to have to take into consideration. it's national interest. and when we act, if you seen it, you mentioned russia presence in syria. and i think one out of country to mentioned here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both firm and accommodating. it was respectful turkeys and israel's central security considerations. but it also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed in them. so that allows me to conclude that at least with israel and turnkey interior, russia has learned how to differentiate the various uses of power and why didn't

work the same way with your brain. so i agree with you as a when they decided to intervene on a dig into a situation as a is william plays a, a new claim for basic is always know is currently the sheep and which is so i would say to no idea. and then i'm out, it was ideal for being part of the view. it didn't play a game. and as a result of that, and as i mentioned, this is one at least 4. so we are witnessing. now since i mentioned turkey, you know that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and he's really especially under prime

minister and i'm at a prime minister. yeah, that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been a really with here. he's in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership after the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down a series, which was taken in moscow as a staff in the back. and yet it's worked towards restoring some sort of that kind of magic relationship. god serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries that serve as

a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russia the way going forward. basically my knowledge and this is what we see developing is that is about getting between the united states a and i am and there's a lot of times when i make i had a different leadership and as a to continuously to become a hey, i differently the blows the flag, the united states doesn't have a kid you at this times that understands international politics, understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease. because they have ran national interest and day in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get that present in bar. we have to take

a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. mm mm. for to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is very dramatic, development only personally, i'm going to i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time. time to sit down and talk with .