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tv   Worlds Apart  RT  March 7, 2023 1:30am-2:01am EST

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ah ton of welcome to worlds apart. after taking stuff, congratulating itself on the long peace europe is now in the midst of a blood and possibly quite protracted conflict. what's left to me and how long it may take until peace returns. well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoined by gwyn our back a european parliament member, representing alternative for germany. mr. beckett is great to talk to you. thank you very much for being available. my pleasure. good afternoon to you. now, let me start with a personal question because i'll turn into for germany, even in russia, is often portrayed as this party. and i don't know how to put it diplomatically, somewhat coo, coo than not particularly enlightened walters. and yet i'm judging from your
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condemning background. you have an advanced degree in law you. 9 taught in oxford than the london school of economics. you wrote that book on emmanuel con with such as scholarly and intellectual background. why did you off for this particular party? well, let me make 2 points 1st. it's greg. yes, i did study not just know by philosophy and politics at oxford university and i've written books on emmanuel can't legal reasoning and the european court of justice. these are scholarly books and they are not overtly political. now, there is a common misconception that if you've received a decent education, you will inevitably turn into a good politically correct, liberal, internationalist, and perfectionist. that is not my view. i think the purpose of education is to make
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you critical, including self critical and enlightened. and it should enable you to question received wisdoms and prevalent opinions. and that's what i've been doing all along . now to my 2nd point, the a f d. there is a young party and, and what you've tried to put bother her. well, possibly diplomatically. and i think there are 2 things to bear in mind. we are young party, which means we have lots of editor politicians. it is great to say that some of my colleagues had perhaps not always chosen the most nuanced and diplomatic way of putting it. however, in matters of politics, you also sometimes have to be political to express uncomfortable truths. and then
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secondly, you can imagine we are party that is questioning practically every aspect of the political consensus in west germany in particular since the war. there's a relentless campaign being waged against us by the publicly own. finance media says there is currently a ready landless propaganda campaign against russia and president ford by the same media, germany. speaking about the matter of politics, i know that in the european parliament you are a member of the identity and democracy group as well as a participant of the conference on the future of europe. how do you see the relationship between identity and democracy and do they have any place in the future of europe? well, 2 questions, really, you're asking here, the relationship is a close one. we know that a few democratic countries that don't have a strong sense of identity usually that
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a sense of national identity or i exception switzerland is a very good example. although you could say they have a sense of national identity based on a political emancipation struggle against imperial around them. so it's switzerland has an identity which is multinational, and the same to some extent could be said about the united states. however, in europe, democracy has generally involved in the case in the, in the context of nation states. now to the 2nd part of your question, well then the answer is fairly clear. both democracy and identity, especially national identity in western europe under threat mrs. funder line, the president of the european commission has announced that she wants to brain dozens of millions of non european people to europe in the next 10 to 50
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years. in my view, national identity cannot survive such a massive influx of people that have no cultural routes or in europe. and if i may, a 3rd point and i've done the calculations on that roughly as present. one 3rd of germany's population is partly for in origin. if present trends of immigration continue even then to diminish level, it is the job of birth rate remains as low as it stays. germany will cease to be a good majority german country by something like 2035. and miss about, can i ask somebody here for a 2nd because i'm sure you know what the people on the are they side of the political spectrum would say they would see your comments as xena for big. but
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having read what you have sad about migration, i think you're making more of a sudden social and institutional argument that it takes, you know, a certain percentage of people rooted in society, rooted in its culture, rooted it in its ways of lives to preserve that way. of life and to develop it and to move it forward. why do you think? and i mean, the field of sense so sealed you so well developed across europe. i mean, there is a department, the facility in any major university. why is it not taken as a practical consideration? why is it always discussed within the framework of ethnicity or skin color? where's you know, traditions they do have certain and very practical value for ensuring stable and comfortable lives. well, you've put my point very clearly. i need deliberate on it. i think a society can be stabilized by very great rapid changes also in the sphere of
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immigration. now why isn't this perfectly sensible a view which was common place in europe until about 30 years ago? nowadays, ostracized is some kind of al tries that of xenophobic view. the reason for this seems to me quite clear because the kind of liberal agenda we see in the west now is not merely reason based, but it's kind of crazy. i religious creed and they are trying to crowd out all sorts of realistic, practical objections. so that vision of creating a kind of city on the hill on. okay, can i ask about one other thing that has much more direct relevance to where i am in russia and where my relatives are in the ukraine? i'm talking about the war in europe. and i think here again, another very important to replace the tradition was if not broken,
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then totally rejected. and i'm talking about this notion of the european balance of power or balance of security. because europe, as we all know, has, has had many wars. but one of the results of that war is a certain diplomatic and international relations culture. dot is rooted in the balance of interest in the power balance of power and for a long time it was respected. and, you know, one could argue that the long piece that i mentioned in the beginning was also a result of that. but this tradition seems to be fully rejected in the case of ukraine, because no russia, security interest i even taken into consideration and haven't been taken for quite some time. and secondly, the europeans have, we put our old there, you know, security sensibilities in the american basket. why would it happen to europe that has been tried and tested by war so many for so for such a long time?
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well, the sad fact is that the launch, the last great european wall is now what is it really a, it was happened a few years ago. my mother experienced it as a child, and the last thing she would ever want is not a war. and her ration for the most part is prepared to do all this to avoid. but most europeans much can go now. and we've seen significant changes in the you cation system, where history are often starts in the post war era. so much is forgotten. i think that is one reason. secondly, i think you are slightly misrepresenting the tradition of realism in european thinking. i great, it's very tradition, but because you are dominated intellectually, for several centuries, practically,
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or other traditions of liberal of international relations also originate in europe. so if you take the manual and he was the class to introduce the notion of the league of nations, this is a more ideal regarding tradition in european international relations thinking. so the realist tradition is why important one? absolutely right. it's been forgotten. i think the reason this part be that europe is a much diminished continent. the europeans don't lead anywhere any longer. and if you're in a position of impotence, well, some people do is they want to be at least the last, the greatest moral superpower on the world. in the world, and i think that's part of what is motivating europe here. it's certainly motivating, john. well, i think, you know,
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i'm and studying psychology on the side. i have a great interest in depth psychology of carl young and that he has actually explored the trends in the collective unconscious quite extensively. he wrote a lot about the knots, a phenomenon as, as a suppression of who you truly are. and you know, when i, when i see these people that are also referring to only concerns with the future, only concerns with that illusions. and not being informed by the past, by their own history. you know, it comes across as a form of self only nation. and that form of self in hello nation. we know it from psychology, always produces hatred, then not just hatred of somebody else. it's usually also self hatred that dan is projected on to other nations. do you think it has anything to do with the current demonization of russia? perhaps other countries like china or iran,
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death is slightly mazacco, a causal what you're saying. and of course, but there are, there is element readers need. sure. it is. characterization of religions makes a very similar point. i myself made the point that impotence maybe at the source of it diminished position of power. i think in the case of russia, there is another element. russia is little understood in western europe. a final point is that west germany, in particular, has been integrated into western structures for 7070 by years now with it went of a great amount to propaganda and a integration into western systems and thinking through education. if you look at east germany, i come from west germany, but in east germany,
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i think there is a much greater skepticism towards the received western liberal narrative. so it's partly an east west to buy the euro, of course, and to present matters complicated and from russia's position. not necessarily the favorable way, because only 30 years ago, 35 years ago, the soviet union dominated eastern europe. so i think the prevalent set set of concerns in eastern europe is security concerns. ok. well mr. back, we have to take a very short break right now for the sake of our editorial security, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. a
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look forward to talking to you that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except with such orders that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about visual intelligence at the point, obviously is to place trust rather than fear like take on various jobs in with artificial intelligence. real. somebody with a robot must protect his own existence with awe
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one come back to one of the parents with going our back european parliament member, representing alternative for germany. and mr. ben before the break, we discussed on this multifaceted and very complicated attitude that the some germans have towards russia. and i've heard you say in one of the other interviews that many of your colleagues at the european parliament as filled with hatred, not only for russia, but for the kind of conservative traditionalism that russia represents. do you think these people who i filled her with hatred, do they even understand the what russia tries to leave out in the world? what it tries to base, it's under identity on where you have to realize you the european parliament, you have about one on one and a half minutes. so i often have to be how to use short traditional conservatism with such as short as he died about factors that play. of course, russia, i think,
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certain basic issues such as decent standard of letting us feel very important. the government has to be very concerned about security, basic comforts to the population. that's one aspect. and the other a point is in your, i think historical education has suffered. so for many europeans, they tend to reject everything. a crown to something like 960. so the, his history starts with a sexual and cultural revolution of the 1960 s, and then reject anything that went on before. so i think that is part of the problem. most of our decision makers in europe now operate in a strictly a historical manner. they sometimes draw historical parallels,
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but they are very little for now. you mentioned the rushes and government and focused on the standards of living and european positions on the country. often talk about in spirit and aspirational and inspirational values, but ensuring basic safety. ensuring basic services is not just the value in since you 2 of the government and maybe just my russian vice. but i want to part of the problem here is indeed the, to the conflict between governmental duties and governmental aspirations and the again, the total rejection of the europeans of the former. because if we can analyze the recent decisions, including the abandoning of all trade with russia, it looks like the living standards of european citizens are not the 1st priority. absolutely. i think for the last 55 years living standards for at least half the
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population in most of europe has not improved. it's as simple as that. now they are declining as a result of the inflation, which is at least partly a result of the corolla, lockdown class, the events in ukraine, and the kind of inspirational and aspirational value catalogue that our politicians are constantly evoking. these ideas are very far removed from the concerns of most people. so yes, in that respect. yeah, absolutely right. most european governments are failing. there are people and possibly that's also why then at the core of the ukrainian crisis, because i think the government of russia for years have been stating that they have a duty to protect their interest secured inches. it's not just an aspiration of val, it's something that we have to act upon. we have our military for that precise reason,
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but all we heard in response was this some aspirational values of some european politicians and the ukrainians. now, i wonder if this can, if this dilemma between you know, heart duties and aspirational valleys, if it could have been resolved without an armed conflict, given your understanding what's been happening in your brain, not i have from february of last year, but a couple of decades prior to that, i see you've given me a broad time horizon that makes answering the question easier. because i think that be very little. i mean, the attitude of russia immediately in the immediate coast war pursued to want west of your own country. taylor has been remarkably generous. it very few countries have treated gertie as well as russia has. in the last 33 to 34 years. russia agreed to
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read a vacation without the body practically anything would return. that i didn't want to say that this is on the way russia turned in just germany. and this is a historic tradition of resolving conflict for russia. was the same case with napoleonic wars. russia, welcoming france back into the family of european countries, not taking any contribution. and it's a consistent then philosophical approach that the russian state has taken over and centuries. not just over down the last i gave you one example that i knew about best. so what there was, if you want me to put it in both general tubs, there was a very, a distinct approach to seek claim, some relations with west west of europe. and this be largely, will not wholly rebuffed. so there was very little that russia gothic return, so if you constantly make concessions,
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if you constantly baker shows and very little cups a return. well then at some stage you bay change your approach. and i think what we have to realize is that europe, together we've driven dog by the united states. deed, so to russia, in russia, accepted a great deal of east expansion. so the europeans thought, and the americans, scientists, you, they could just march forward. and i was surprised that russia got some degree now the europeans. i think i genuinely surprised the americans, i said, have a more rational attitude they regarded, bore as a kind of power. again, the european so often distracted by their own idea, this think well, i guess it's easy to be ideal if, when times are good and i've heard many experts say that the e u
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u. s. partnership was always on the american terms, but at least you have the benefit of foreign direct investment and relatively fair trade. but it's no longer the case. i think the terms of your partnership changing very rapidly and you're bound to give much more and receive much, much less there. i mean, the american policy towards europe is pretty hawkish, if not creditor at this point of time, given the industrial capacities that are being transferred to the united states. now how long do you think it will take until be european voters? not the europe in petitions, but the european voters will fill the pinch and we'll demand something. something different from the leaders. where you've chosen very harsh words, hawkish and credit tread. i'd like to defend the united states and this regard just being rational from the point of view. i think it's the european reaction that said betty naive and foolish in the fall to the europeans,
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primarily allow themselves to be put in that position. the united states is just doing more in the interest to be fab, but you're in another respect, i see after the war, during the cold war, the united states required compliance in military and foreign policy matters. but they, in turn, could guarantee highlighted that's come to lead. the alliance with the united states. western integration is becoming increasingly expensive for your many europeans as yet to minority awakening to it. but hardly any of our politicians are. so there is a dichotomy, how long it will take. i cannot tell you. when can i ask her? this is something that is absolutely puzzling to many of us in russia and particularly those who live in saint petersburg, which is a city with huge german heritage and various strong cultural ties with germany. and
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this is also. 6 a city where many of the gas projects originated, for example, the north stream pipelines were built up from the, from that side of the baltic cost and given all the explosions and the recent and statements, for example, from hungry, hungry prime minister orbit. saying that he doesn't exclude it, but a possible repeat of such incidents. i just wonder, do you think the europeans would ever want to know what actually happened to, you know, that own energy infrastructure on the, i mean, i understand that here, russia, but i'm the fearful that something like that could happen in europe at this day and age with the love a clear questions, i can give you clear answers, move european governments don't want to know the european people for the most part, have a suspicion. what happened and of course they,
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they couldn't care less or what there is an oppressive climate, which makes it very difficult to call a spade a spade, because our government has systematically avoided a serious investigation of who carried out the attacks. that intimidated they do not wish it, they don't. well they know that they don't wish it to be widely known. i know you have heard of that, but the russia has experience a number of terrorist attacks by ukrainian militants yesterday. and i think it's pretty clear that if the war will come, ever closer to russia, russia will respond. do you think people in europe understand that? you know, that the time for illusions is over. it's in there is a real war on the ground in russia, ukraine, and if it continues, it may come to europe as well. no, i don't understand that,
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probably speaking. i think some people have some kind of a mobile, amorphous fear, but the last great war happened so long ago that most people think this matter can somehow be localized if they were fully aware that this call may escalate. and because there's an interesting paradox, let's assume the west is right. and they can really push russia better get ukraine to push russia back for to be. so can you can yes, well, i have the army you. yes, i'm just trying to sub summarize what some people i think he missed. they will argue, craig, such an extent, that because russia isn't sending his whole army in, they may push russia back. i don't think that most europeans have an adequate conception, that in these circumstances,
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a great power like russia will respond with any means at its disposal. i'd like to be, i'd like to leave it as an ad. it is that it's clear what i mean. i guess the most europeans are aware of this. absolutely not. and so with the united states, also with china. i mean, it's, it says, you know, international politics want to one. i mean, it's the, the, the basic thing that the people study in international affairs class. now can i ask in the last, the very last question because you don't sound very optimistic, but what's your best home for the next couple of years as far as russia, europe and the whole world is concerned. yes, you're right. i know by disposition, an optimist, and the last decade has generally proved me right. but obviously we'll have to do what we can do. so said that even at the end, tomorrow we should start at least one last tree. so i think we have to reach an
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understanding that you, craig, this war has to be brought to an end. i can't give you an easy solution of what this might be. but what i do know is that this is a grave danger to you. and he's already backing our economy. it's no one. it's not doing anyone any good, certainly not in europe. so we have to do what we can to exit. mister back has been great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you. and i couldn't agree more with your last words. thank you very much. thank you. thank you for watching hope this era down on world apart. ah, a
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news at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people. and to defend the world from great who's with food and medicines, and supplies, and freedom with
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with the west escalates the ukranian conflict and pursues its own geo political agenda while undermining beijing's proposed peace plan. those words from china's foreign minister at the 2 sessions, a major political event in 3. regrettably, however, efforts for peace talks have been repeatedly undermined. there seems to be an invisible hand pushing for the per traction. and escalation of the conflict with russia has sent 20000 tons of fertilizer to malawi as part of the plan to combat hunger by providing a central goods to.


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