corroborate what holmes said. and so he can't get away with lying anymore. he's going to have to tell everything. if he doesn't want to be indicted for the perjury, because even saying i don't remember, i don't recall does not mean it's not perjury when you're having a conversation like the one that he reportedly had. that's something that you would remember and juries are willing to say if you said i don't remember it, we don't believe you. even that could be perjury. if he wants to get a deal, he better come clean and do it fast. >> if you look at what came out today then, andrew, the hundreds of pages that have been mentioned, again, just several hours into this from jennifer williams as well as timothy morrison, both of whom will be testifying as has been said this coming tuesday, what do you think their role will fit as the prosecutors in this case, the democrats there on the intel committee, are pushing for. what is the relevance? >> it underscores the entire national security apparatus, including political

holmes? >> we got a look at the ten-page opening statement on friday night and it was explosive and at various levels explicit as well. the one key thing that david holmes was unveiling to lawmakers was this launch he had with ambassador gordon sondland where he overheard gordon sondland call president trump and he overheard president trump talking explicitly about investigations and about the relationship between president trump angd ukrainian president jens. we don't know how he was able to hear all of this and how is his recollection so crystal clear. he made sure they could hear president trump because president trump spoke so loudly that gordon sondland moved the phone from his ear. this was an extremely distinctive experience in my foreign service career, i've never seen anything like this, someone calling the president from a mobile phone at a restaurant and having a conversation of this level of candor, colorful language. there's so much about the call that was so remarkable and i rem

holmes. have you met with or do you know alexandra chose but? could you put your microphone on? >> no. >> do you know nellie ohr? have you met with nellie ohr? bruce ohr? >> no. >> glenn simpson? >> no. >> thank you. same question for you, dr. hill. do you know or have you met with alexandra chu by? >> no two nellie ohr? >> no. >> bruce ohr? >> only in the course of my previous position as a national intelligence officer for russia, where he attended some of the meetings i presided over. >> years ago? >> a long time ago, correct. >> glenn simpson? >> no. >> dr. hill, in her testimony you said that dust in your deposition, excuse me, you said that christopher steele was her counterpart at one time. is this correct? >> that's correct, yes. >> you testified you met with christopher steele in 2016. i assume that is the correct? >> that's correct, yes. >> the only thing we didn't get on that, do you know about when that was in 2016 and how many times? >> i'm afraid i don't. actually i had met with

holmes, mr. jordan's time has expired but yours has not. you may answer the question. >> it's exactly my point. i briefed the call in detail. went away for a week, refer to the call, and everyone is nodding. of course, that's what's going on. of course, the president is pressing for a biden investigation before he'll do these things the ukrainians want. every singleding agreement. word in the call? no, because everyone by that point agreed. it was obvious what the president was pressing for. and ambassador taylor, as you've just outlined, had all those other interactions. >> but you didn't share it with us. >> mr. jordan, please do not interrupt. >> but, sir, my vivid recollection of what i was involved with was a touchstone experience that, to me, validated -- >> mr. jordan, please do not interrupt. >> -- what we believed. and ambassador taylor was not in that call. >> so all of a sudden, last week -- >> mr. jordan. mr. jordan, you will allow the witness to answer the question. >> i'll finish with this. >> thank you. >> he was involved in

david holmes is thoughtful and detail- detail-orient detail-oriented. he indicates the president didn't care about russian aggression in ukraine, he was singularly focused on his own needs. this is a firsthand account from a career foreign service officer. and ambassadors don't typically have a direct line to the president of the united states for many reasons. one of which is that the information is vetted by the secretary of state, by the white house, goes through a sort of process. ambassador sondland was able to just pick up the phone, talk to the president of the united states, and in quite a cavalier way, in an open setting, saying the president is only focused on himself. >> michael, doesn't the argument from the administration, from many republicans, that none of the testimony thus far has been firsthand knowledge, doesn't that go away now? >> it went away when they released the transcript of the july 25th call, because out of the mouth of the president came the explicit request for the quid pro quo. the second thing, of course, is that sondland

and republicans pushing back on fiona hill, as you reported there, also on david holmes. asking how he could have understood what the president was saying if he wasn't on the phone call himself. the president tweeting the same thing today, claiming it would have been impossible to hear him. >> reporter: david, holmes was clear. he could hear the president. he says this was a very distinctive experience, something he would not forget, overhearing the president of the united states discussing something holmes had been working on for months. and while the president is questioning this, sondland himself does not dispute holmes' recollection of that phone call. david? >> mary bruce leading us off again tonight. mary, thank you. >>> as you heard mary report there, the president tweeting about david holmes, who says he heard the president on that phone call at a restaurant in ukraine, but the president was quiet on dr. fiona hill, at least publicly. but here's what we do know tonight. the president today invited some key republican senators to the white house for a lunch. so, le

david holmes, the u.s. diplomat in ukraine. he's the person who overheard president trump asking ambassador sondland about the investigation into joe biden during that loud cell phone call in a kyiv restaurant. he told lawmakers he was stunned by that call. he'd never seen anything like it he said. a source tells cnn serl republicans were shaken by what holmes had to say. all of this as cnn learns that mr. trump has considered dismissing aides who testified against him. suzanne malveaux is live on capitol hill with our top story. >> reporter: good morning, alisyn. at this very moment capitol police are huddled inside that room as they get ready for a security sweep. we are three hours away from those four witnesses testifying, key witnesses, all of this following late last night when new transcripts release damning testimony, new testimony that poke major holes in trump and his allies' arguments. >> four key witnesses will take the stand today starting with lieutenant colonel alexander vindman and jennifer williams who both lis

david holmes, u.s. embassy in detailing the conversation between sondland and trump just one president's call with leader.diplomat in ukraine: the was very loud i then heard ask, "so, he's investigation?" ambassador that "he's gonna holmes sondland as president did ukraine, instead he about: diplomat in "big stuff that president, like the biden investigation that mr. giuliani was pushing." (ken) president trump has told his house allies to "keep his house trump has told president (ken) pushing." mr. giuliani was investigation that the biden president, like benefits the "big stuff that ukraine: diplomat in david holmes, us about:only cared instead he ukraine, not care about president did saying the sondland as quoting holmes quoting saying the not care about ukraine, instead he only cared about:david holmes, us diplomat in ukraine:"big stuff that benefits the president, like the biden investigation that mr. giuliani was investigation that the biden president, like benefits the president, like the biden i

now, david holmes is a career foreign service officer. we heard about him for the first time, though not by name, at the first public impeachment hearing that happened this week when ambassador bill taylor broke this surprise news. >> last friday, a member of my staff told me of events that occurred on july 26th. in the presence of my staff at a restaurant, ambassador sondland called president trump and told him of his meetings in kyiv. the member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about the investigations. ambassador sondland told president trump the ukrainians were ready to move forward. following the call with president trump, the member of my staff asked ambassador sondland what president trump thought about ukraine. ambassador sondland responded that president trump cares more about the investigations of biden, which giuliani was pressing for. at the time, i gave my deposition on october 22nd, i was not aware of this information. i'm including it here for completeness. >> so we learn of tha

holmes, that's hearsay. we can't rely on people saying what the president said, apparently we can only rely on what the president says and there we shouldn't even rely on that either. we shouldn't really rely on what the president said on the call report, we should imagine he said something else. we should imagine, he said, something about actually fighting corruption. instead of what he actually said, which was, i want you to do us a favor, though. i want you to look into this 2016 crowd strike conspiracy theory and i want you to look into the bidens. i guess we're not even supposed to rely on that, because that's hearsay. well, that's absurd. that would be like saying you can't rely on the testimony of the burglars during watergate because it is only hearsay or you can't consider the fact that they tried to break in because they got caught. they actually didn't get what they came for, so, you know, i don't know, no harm, no foul. that's absurd. that's absurd. but the other -- the other defense, besides it

now, david holmes is a career foreign service officer. we heard about him for the first time though not by name at the first public impeachment hearing that happened this week when ambassador bill taylor broke this surprise news. >> last friday a member of my staff told me of events that occurred on july 26th in the presence of my staff at a restaurant. ambassador sondland called president trump and told him of his meetings in kiev. the member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about the investigations. ambassador sondland told president trump that ukrainians were ready to move forward. following the call with president trump, the member of my staff asked ambassador sondland what president trump thought about ukraine. ambassador sondland responded that president trump cares more about the investigations of biden, which giuliani was pressing for. at the time i gave my deposition on october 22nd, i was not aware of this information. i am including here for completeness. >> so we learn of that stor

and david holmes. he is the official that overheard that trump phone call with sondland, where he heard trump say he did not care about ukraine, but rather the so-called big stuff like investigating the bidens. >> he specifically remembered that the bidens were brought up in that discussion, which is interesting and contradicts something that gordon sondland says. suzanne, thank you. >>> this morning, what is the impact of gordon sondland's testimony? and what does it mean for some of the other proposed witnesses who have refused to show up? we'll tell you about all the implications that are developing this morning, next. ( ♪ ) introducing the marilyn monroe collection of fine jewellery. exclusively at zales, the "diamonds are a girl's best friend" store. exclusively at zales, i am totally blind. and non-24 can make me show up too early... or too late. or make me feel like i'm not really "there." talk to your doctor, and call 844-234-2424. too shabby! too much! i can rent this? for that price? absolu

holmes. did you know that burisma's legal officials met with the ukrainian officials just days after the vice president forced the firing of the country's chief prosecutor? >> no. >> did you know that burisma's new american lawyers tried to have a meeting the day that shokin was fired? >> no. >> did you know that the president called president poroshenko shortly after the burisma's ceo's home was raided? >> no. >> did you know that there was a raid on burisma, and that devon archer and the deputy secretary of state had inquired about burisma? >> no. >> and the same for you, dr. hill? >> i did not know, no. >> and you know that there was meddling in the elections with the ukrainians and you were in there as head of the ukraine desk -- >> right. >> did you raise it up to ambassador bolton with any concerns through 2017 or 2018 that concerned any 2016 election meddling or burisma concerns? >> the whole briefing process didn't really work in the way that you are suggesting there. so, if the presi

witnesses that is david holmes political counselor from the u.s. embassy in kiev and dr fiona hill the former russian advise that the white house a lot of focus today on that russia ukraine relationship and exactly who may have interfered in the u.s. election of 2016 and looking ahead to 2020 as well i'm santa maria here in doha welcome to al-jazeera is continuing coverage of the donald trump impeachment inquiry it is about 20 past 4 in the afternoon right now in washington d.c. heidi castro is our correspondent on capitol hill who has been watching and listening to all of this today heidi as i said it very intense is the word i always come to for these for these hearings because there is so much information there i think maybe we'll do best to hear from the players themselves so let's start with david holmes this is his recollection of what he heard when ambassador solomon was on the phone with donald trump let's have a listen on bass or silence phone was not on speaker phone i could hear the president's voice through the earpiece of. the presiden

holmes, that is all hearsay. we can only rely on what the president says, and there, we shouldn't even rely on that either. we shouldn't really rely on what the president said on the call record. we should imagine he said something else. we should imagine he said something about actually fighting corruption inside of what he actually said, which was "i want you to do us a favor, though." i want you to look into this 2016 crowd strike conspiracy theory, and i want you to look into the bidens. we should not rely on that because that's hearsay. that is absurd. that would be like saying, you cannot rely on the testimony of the burglars during watergate, because it is only hearsay. or you cannot consider the fact that they tried to break in because they got caught. the actually did not get what they came for, so, no harm, no foul. that's absurd. that is absurd. but the other defense besides the scheme failed, they got caught them out the other defense is the president denies it. well, i guess that his case closed, rig

holmes today. again, that will be a judgment made by the committees of jurisdiction. the >> sandra: not over yet, more witnesses make space might be to come. what did you take from that, bret can max be when i'm at the take it to 30,000 feet. to her point, there's a process. to go through committee, there's a vote, there's article of impeachment that go through the house is your committee. and then the house floor, that goes over to the sender for the trial. the 30,000-foot perspective, if people are watching this and they think, "oh, my gosh, our government is in chaos, this is nuts," there is a process. at this hour, and about 14 minutes, the israeli attorney general is going to indict the prime minister of israel, benjamin netanyahu, on corruption charges. netanyahu has denied those charges, but that indictment is moving forward. that throws into question about the leadership of israel. in great britain, there is all kinds of chaos as brexit has thrown a wrench into all of their leadership. they are in the middle of a general election, as they are heading that way.

holmes. what we're talking about here is the withholding of recognition in that white house meeting, the withholding of military aid to an ally at war. that is beyond anything nixon did. >> joining now, fiona hill's attorney, ambassador lee wolosky. thank you very much for being here. how does dr. hill think went today went for her? does she feel like she was able to communicate what she wanted to the committee? >> all she really wanted to do, as she said in her opening statement, is testify to what she saw and what she knew and to help begin tguide the committee the truth. and in that respect, as a fact witness, i think she achieved her objective. >> the phrase that she used to describe sondland's mission, a domestic political errand, a lot of people have said that was a big takeaway from today, that sort of encapsulated what was going on here. does she agree? >> well, yeah. as she testified to, i think that what she began to notice is that, in fact, this really wasn't an irregular or shadow

holmes testified behind closed doors on friday. we are about to hear from him in newly scheduled public testimony as well. but here's what he's testified to already. quote, in early may we learned that vice president pence no longer planned to lead the presidential delegation to the inauguration in ukraine. the white house ultimately whittled back an initial proposed list of the inauguration from over a dozen individuals to just five with secretary perry at its head. the inauguration took place may 20th. i took notes into delegation meeting with president zelensky. during that meeting secretary perry passed president zelensky a list, passed him a list of, quote, people he trusts from whom zelensky could seek advice on energy sector reform. that was then the topic of subsequent meetings between secretary perry and key ukrainian energy sector contacts. meetings from which u.s. embassy personnel were excluded by secretary perry's staff. well, why didn't you want the embassy staff there? rick perry is one of the handful of trump admini

holmes. this impeachment inquiry is based on the call the day before where president trump as part of a bribery scheme, as part of an extortion scheme and as part of a quid pro quo, according to the democrats demanded investigations in exchange for either military aid or white house meeting. and the next day, you were witness to president trump receiving word that the bribery scheme was successful. the extortion scheme was successful. and his response, his response was good, what about sweden? >> yes, sir. the ukraine portion of that conversation was extremely brief. >> what was the first thing the president said on the call? clear recollection of this conversation. >> sondland greeted the president. >> how? >> he said, hello, mr. president. i'm in kiev and the president said, are you in ukraine? >> you think he said, are you in ukraine? what? >> he said ukraine. >> what did you hear president trump say about. >> how did we go from the conversation was very loud and his voice was recognizable

and mary, republicans pushing back on fiona hill, as you reported there, but also on david holmes. essentially asking him how he could have understood what the president was saying if he wasn't on the phone call himself in ukraine. the president tweeting the same thing today, claiming it would have been impossible to hear him. >> reporter: david, holmes was clear. he could hear the president. he says this was a very distinctive experience, something he would not forget, overhearing the president of the united states discussing something holmes had been working on for months. and while the president is questioning this, sondland himself does not dispute holmes' recollection of that phone call. david? >> mary bruce leading us off again tonight. mary, thank you. and as you heard mary report there, the president tweeting about david holmes, who says he heard the president on that phone call at a restaurant in ukraine, but the president was quiet on dr. fiona hill, at least publicly. but here's what we do know tonight. the president today invited some key republican senators to the whit

holmes was with sondland in ukraine when sondland called trump to talk about the scheme, and holmes overheard that conversation now, you'll recall that yesterday sondland confirmed the account that holmes had given, an account holmes repeated today. >> i heard ambassador sondland greet the president and explained he was calling from kiev i heard president trump then clarify that ambassador sonldand was in ukraine ambassador sondland replied yes, he was in ukraine, and went on to state that president zelensky, quote, "loves your ass. i then heard president trump ask, "so he's going to do the investigation? ambassador sondland replied that he is going to do it >> you also testified that you confirmed to president trump that you were in ukraine at the time, and that president zelensky, quote, "loves your ass," unquote. do you recall saying that? >> yeah, it sounds like something i would say. [ laughter ] >> seth: that is the face of a man who has no [ bleep ] left to give [ laughter and applause "i mean, yeah, man [ cheers and applause oh, yeah that sounds like gordan sondland. mind if

yesterday david holmes, a top u.s. diplomat, told lawmakers that he overheard eu ambassador gordon sondland discussing investigations with president trump after his july 25th call with ukraine's president. >>> israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has vowed to stay in power after being indicted on corruption charges. he's accused of bribery, fraud, and breach of trust. the charges stem from three separate corruption cases. netanyahu claims that he is a victim of a witch-hunt and did nothing wrong. >>> two men on a 500-mile journey to support vetere expected to arrive at the finish line today at arlington national cemetery. errol barnett reports. [ applause ] >> reporter: marathon enthusiasts brian churchland and josh milich are on the longest2 massachusetts national cemetery on cape cod to arlington national cemetery in virginia. they're averaging more than 40 miles a day. >> we've got 20 to go. >> reporter: braving rain, snow, and injury to raise awareness of veterans' suicides. we caught up with them in philadelp

plant based protein has become popular. >> clear your holmes of clutter. now she wants to replace them with products that spark joy. she told you to get rid of your stuff and she's selling you some. she launched an online shop selling 100 products across categories like aroma therapy, cooking, decor and organization. she said she's not encouraging customers to overpurchase anything. >> we should have been suspicious. she wanted us to get rid of stuff. and event lif we'd replace it. >> i did it in two different rooms. at first i thought about it. and i went to the thrift shop and i really like that hat. wait, that's my hat. i gave away things i wanted back. >> early start continues right now. >>> the impeachment probe back in the spotlight today. four top officials set to testify. why they matter and how new revelations from this diplomat make him critical for democrats. >> u.s. role as a >>> the u.s. royal as a broker in doubt. recognizing israeli settlements in the west bank. >>> why chick-fil-a will no longer donate to groups with anti-guy vi anti-gay vi

hill and david holmes gave us a seminar in u.s. policy with ukraine, a powerful statement and every member of the republican caucus agreed with that policy that they were describing. so it's very hard to make the argument that this was a dispute over policy. every member of the republican side agreed it was a bipartisan commitment to helping the ukrainians fight the russians and yet the president's policy was completely different, and this is the disnance. this is the contradiction they have to work through. >> is that you, gloria? >> fiona hill described it perfectly. she was dismissive of what giuliani and gordon sondland is doing. she called it a political errand. >> right. it was an errand and what she and everybody else in the economic team and they were actually trying to conduct, and she made the point very quickly that the russians ared bad guys here and that the ukrainians are the good guys. they're on our side and if you buy into these conspiracy theories you're buying into -- into russian double speak which is exactly wh

and so was david holmes. and point by point she absolutely devastated the republicans until at some point they were making statements where they said, i really don't have any questions to ask you. she completely took apart anything. there has been no white house defense all along. there was no defense from the republican members. >> she disarmed them. she would say, well, i kind of -- i agree with you on that. we're all against russia aggression. i agree with you on that. look, she took a meat ax to republican conspiracy theories in a brilliant way, i thought, by -- she's a russia expert, she is a putin scholar, she has written a book about putin, and in her own way she took about -- she said, look, folks, ukraine is not the bad guys. russia is the bad guys here. they were the bad guys doing the work and all the conspiracy theories, she said, are a fictional narrative that is exactly what russia wants you to believe. it is in their interest to have you believe that ukraine was doing all of these nefarious thi

there are real consequences for him down the line. >> holmes, david holmes who testified friday, he said he was a note taker for the meeting that you and senator ron johnson had with zelensky of ukraine. holmes testified that senator johnson told zelensky he was shocked by president trump's negative view of ukraine that zelensky, in his view, would have a difficult time overcoming. what was zelensky's response to johnson telling him that the president, president trump, had a negative view of ukraine? >> well, you know, we walk into the meeting and normally you engage in diplomatic formalities at the beginning. that's not how the meeting went. zelensky launched into the question about the security aid. and desperately wanted our help and advice how to turn the aid back on. so part of the meeting was about trying to he trying to help him secure a meeting with the president to help the aid flow once more. i reminded him it won't help ukraine for them to get involved in american elections and he shouldn't be listening to giuliani's corrupt request and he agreed. he understood that ukraine ne

i think david holmes got it right. it summed up what has anyone the least bit familiar with national security practices just jaw dropping. it's so ab normal. >> let's talk about the options for sondland. does he have any? what about now it's clear that he omitted crucial information from previous testimony. >> it's really getting tighter and tighter for him. this call in particular he never mentioned and it's a hard thing to have forgotten. and it's -- it's jaw dropping. in addition after he gets off the phone holmes says to him what was that about? and we have the famous in some ways the money quote of the entire hearing. which is trump doesn't really care about ukraine. all he cares about is the bidens. sondland already tiptoed back to correct and it's going to be difficult for him to do it again. he has disclaimed remembering a number of things that will be very hard to stick by. >> what if he pleads the fifth? >> he can. and some people say it's been waived but it doesn't matter. they won't go to court. if he does

movement castro now has been following the hearings on capitol hill she reports on why mr holmes his recollection of the phone calls so poor. he says that's 1st hand because he here heard it with his own ears they were words that came out of the president's mouth to mouth that he that that he overheard on this very loud apparently phone call that the probe the the ambassador to the e.u. gordon sol and had made it to trump they were actually sitting on restaurant patio as holmes tells it and then after someone hung up with the president holmes who's a who was quite intrigued he said frankly never seen anyone just call the president the united states while having lunch before he asked him what else was discussed and he heard from the ambassador that trump didn't give an expletive about ukraine that he only cared about the big stuff and then when holmes asked what was this big stuff there were there was big stuff he said like the war that ukraine was fighting against russia and so on said no it's not that the big stuff is the investigations into the bidens which would help trump politic

then we have state department official david holmes. and he is the man who heard the phone call in ukraine in the restaurant on the cell phone between u.s. ambassador to the eu man of the moment yesterday gordon sondland and president trump. why does he matter? well, because that's the closest we have other than the call with the ukraine president and the u.s. president putting the idea of getting the investigations in the mouth of the president, wolf. >> it's going to be very dramatic, these two witnesses. republicans as you know, they're still scrambling yesterday's very, very damning testimony by the ambassador gordon sondland. sources say the white house and republican lawmakers were blind sided after sondland directly implicated the president and top officials in the administration to pressure ukraine to open investigations into the bidens. joining us now to discuss this and more, jim sciutto and jamie gengel and david gregory. so, you know, going into sondland's testimony yesterday, he had one version in his deposition. then he ha

let's start with kristin holmes on capitol hill. let's start with the testimony of mark sandy of the omb office. >> that's right, fred. here is what we know. she a career official at the office of management and budget, the omb, and here is why that division of the white house is so important. let's take a look at what this impeachment inquiry is all about from the very beginning. the question is whether or not president trump and his allies withheld funding to get dirt on his political rivals. the organization, the part of the white house that would withhold that fund or release that fund, that comes from the omb, the office of management and budget. so there is really not a lot of knowledge what was going on within that unit at the white house. and that is not for a lack of trying, we know they had to try to talk to people, and they had five suspects, they released documents, but sandy, he is here and he is testified, he respo responded to a subpoena, and it goes to the fact that she a career official that worked with democrats an

holmes and other staffers. but it was the additional evidence and testimony that we needed. >> and joyce vance, gordon sondland has gone back to his job as ambassador to the european union. some people are surprised at that that he hasn't resigned in what appears to be open conflict with the president or the president hasn't fired him. but gordon sondland as condemning as his testimony was, at many points in his testimony seemed to be shading it, seemed to be leaning it as much to favor the president as possible. there could be a lot more things that gordon sondland knows that he didn't say, and donald trump might know that he didn't say those things. >> that seems really likely to me. something that surprised me about gordon sondland's testimony was that there was very little contrition. he seemed almost proud of what they had done and what they had accomplished. and it was hard to get an assessment of whether that was just a businessman, not a career diplomat who simply didn't understand the contours of the w

holmes is a u.s. staffer in ukraine and earlier in week it was revealed he overheard a conversation with president trump and ambassador to the ukraine union gordon sondland in which president trump talked specifically about the investigations into the bidens. i want to set the scene here as holmes did in his closed-door testimony. he said the reason he was able to hear this call is they were having a meal together, him, sondland and two other staffers. they were outside and quiet and sondland policed this call to president trump. holmes said while it wasn't often speaker that president trump was so loud that you could hear him distinctly, what he was saying and hear his voice. so loud, in fact, sondland had to move the phone away from his ear at one point. and he said he heard then i heard president trump ask he's going to do the investigation? and ambassador sondland said he will do it. president zelensky will do anything you ask him to. the phone conversation ends there but the conversation between

holmes? you wanted vice president pence to attend? >> yes, sir. we understood that was the plan. >> now, jennifer williams, from the office of the vice president, testified here that on may 13th, which is the same day that president trump met with prime minister orban, that the president called off vice president pence's trip for unknown reasons, but before the inauguration date had been scheduled. and dr. hill, were you aware during that period there was a lot of publicity and i think mr. holmes you reference this in your opening statement r as wel aboutwe rudy giuliani's interes in these investigations in ukraine? >> i was certainly aware, yes. >> and the -- around this time, dr. hill, you also, i believe testified that ambassador bolton had expressed some views to you about mr. giuliani's interest in ukraine. do you recall what you said? >> yes. >> what he said to you, rather? >> i do recall. it was part of a conversation about the things that mr. giuliani was saying very frequently in public. we saw them often or saw him often on television ma

holmes and other staffers. but it was the additional evidence and the information and testimony that we needed. >> and, joyce vance, gordon sondland has gone back to his job as ambassador to the european union. some people are surprised at that, that he hasn't resigned now that he's in what appears to be open conflict with the president or even that the president hasn't fired him. but another way of looking at that is gordon sondland, as condemning as his testimony was, at many points in his testimony seems to be shading it. seemed to be leaning it as much to favor the president as possible. there could be a lot more things that gordon sondland knows that he didn't say and donald trump might know that he didn't say those things. >> that seems really likely to me. something that surprised me about gordon sondland's testimony was that there was very little contrition. he seemed almost proud of what they had done and what they had accomplished. and it was hard to get an assessment of whether that was just a busine

holmes goes on to continue that in the wake of those meetings on august 27th, members of the u.s. embassy, individuals were working on trying to, quote, frame the issue for president trump on security assistance so essentially he would come around to releasing that. as he walks through that process, he says, quote, my

holmes will testify thursday. let's ask our experts and our analysts about what they're expecting this week. and gloria, what are we going to learn? >> well you talked about mr. sondland, we're going to hopefully learn who was directing him on ukraine policy. clearly he was the trump whisperer in this group of people. he was in the meeting on may 23rd in which the president said from the oval office, talk to rudy. and we'll have to hear why mr. sondland did what he did. and the question everyone is asking, of course, is he going to throw the president under the bus. or what explanation will he give? will he say, for example, that we were all just trying to figure out a way to get around rudy giuliani who was the person standing in the way of getting that important aid to ukraine. we'll hear from a few people who were on the original -- listening in on the july 25th phone call so they'll be able to tell everyone in the country what it was that they heard and whether or not they thought it was a beautiful and perfec

holmes? >> again, i don't recall my exact words, but clearly the president beginning on may 23rd when we met with him in the oval office, was not a big fan. >> but he was a big fan of the investigations? >> apparently so. >> and in fact, mr. holmes said that you said that president trump only cares about the "big stuff that benefits himself." is that something that you would have said at the time? >> i don't think i would have said that. i would have honestly said that he was not a big fan of ukraine and he wants the investigations that we had been talking about for quite some time to move forward. that's what i would have said because that's the fact. >> mr. holmes also remembers that you told him, giving an example of the big stuff, the biden investigation that rudy giuliani was pushing, do you recall that? >> i don't. i recall barisma, not biden. >> but do you recall saying at least referring to an investigation that rudy giuliani was pushing, is that something that you likely would have s

mr holmes i want to assure quick a couple questions. i think is often is the case for people. you know i was obviously at your deposition read your opening testimony but as you learn more facts you start to see things in different light even though your opening statement is very much consistent with your opening statement in that position and i was struck in particular by something you sent to page 10 of your opening statement well we had advised our ukrainian counterparts to voice a commitment to following the rule of law and generally investigate incredible corruption allegations this was a demand that president selenski personally commit on a cable news channel to a specific investigation of president trump's political rival in this case to a point i made at the close of our hearing yesterday about hypocrisy. here we are and we are urging craniums to commit to follow in the rule of law as you said and only investigate genuine and credible allegations and what are we doing or asking them to investigate the president's political rival ukraine it's a pretty sophisticated actor

holmes' testimony and deposition. we were there very late and i had obligations here in my congressional district and also with my family so i wasn't able to attend this one. >> let me ask you about david holmes and his important testimony last night. he's the state department aide who says he overheard the call. he said he heard the president actually ask sondland if ukraine was going to do the investigations. do you expect holmes will eventually testify publicly? >> that's a decision that will be up to the intelligence committee and the head -- the leadership of the other committees. but what i will tell you is that i was present for ambassador sondland's testimony behind closed doors as well as ambassador taylor's. and what i heard, although i can't share what mr. holmes said to the committees in the deposition, nothing that i heard was in opposition to what was testified to by the previous witnesses. >> sure but -- >> i will tell you -- >> you guys have faced a lot of criticism for not talking or hearing from peop

he's a diplomat, david holmes. he came to talk about his first-hand sighting, what he saw in a moment at has received so much attention in these hearings. let's listen to part of what david holmes had to say. mr. holmes: thfour of us went to a nearby restaurant and sat on an outdoor terrace. i sat direly across from ambassador sondland ad the two staffers sat off to the sides. at first, the lunch was largely social. ambassador sondland selected a bottle of wine that he shared among the four of us and we discussed topics like working f strategi his hotel business. during the lunch, ambassd or sondland s would call president trump to give an update. ambassador sondland placed a call on his mobile phoi eard him announce himself several times along the lines of "gordon sondland holding for the president." it appeared he was being transferred through severalf layersitchboards and assistants. i then noticed ambassador sondland's demeanor changed.ha i understood hbeen connected to president trump. while ambassador sondld'

when holmes joined sondland at a restaurant in kiev. according to the transcript, holmes told investigators that quote during the lunch, ambassador sondland said that he was going to call president trump to give him an update. ambassador sondland placed a call on the global phone and i heard him announce himself several times along the lines of gordon sondland holding for the president. holmes explained that quote while ambassador sondland's phone was not on speaker phone, chi hear the president's voice through the ear piece of the phone. and the president's voice was very loud, and recognizable. and ambassador sondland held the phone away from his ear for a period of time presumably because of the loud volume. >> holmes testified that he heard sondland tell trump that he was in ukraine and went on to state that president zelensky quote-unquote loves your ask, and so he is going to do the investigation, unquote, and ambassador sondland reported that he is going to do it, adding that president zelensky will do anything you ask him to do.

holmes in scotland. just thought i would add that. in 1987, i won a place on an academic unit to the soviet union. this was a turning point for me, an american professor who i met there, told me about scholarships to the united states, and the very next year, i arrived in america to start my advanced studies at harvard. years later, i can say with confidence that this country has offered me opportunities i never would have had in england. i grew up poor with a very distinctive working class accent. in england in the 1980s and 1990s, this would have impeded my advancement. this has never set me back in america. for the best part of three decades, i have built a career as a nonpartisan, nonpolitical national security professional focusing on europe and euroasia. i have served under three presidents. most recently under president trump, as well as under my former position of national intelligence, under presidents george w. bush and barack obama. i was the role senior expert on sovi soviet republics including ukraine. i was asked to join

ambassador where they discussed a deal for an investigation by ukraine that was david holmes or heard that on the right on the left the former white house russia expert dr fiona hill both of them testifying on day 5 of this public hearing examining whether donald trump withheld military aid to ukraine he allegedly wanted an investigation into the democratic presidential hopeful joe biden in return holmes says he was at lunch with the u.s. ambassador to the e.u. goldman sunland as he spoke to the president's arms they gave his recollection of what he'd heard on that phone call. well ambassador silence phone was not on speakerphone i could hear the president's voice through the earpiece of the phone the president's voice was loud and recognizable and a baster song and held the phone away from his ear for a period of time presumably because of the loud volume i heard a bass or stalin greet the president and explain he was calling from kieve i heard president trump and clarify that ambassador song was in ukraine vasser song replied yes he was in ukraine and went on to state that president

holmes, thank you as well. you're a late entrant into this situation. we spoke with you last friday night about what we thought would be about a 30 second vignette, and it turns out with your 40 minute opener today you have a lot of information to share, we appreciate you being here. dr. hill, your last day at the national security council was july 19th, is that correct? >> that's correct, yes. >> so you were involved with the july 25th call, and you were not related to any of the activities? >> i was not, that is correct. >> as of july 19th did you believe a call would be scheduled for the 25th? >> i personally did not think it would be scheduled that day, no. >> what was the thinking at the nsc as of july 19th about this call? >> i learned from other depositions to be clear here that perhaps there was awareness that there might be a call. ambassador sondland showed an exchange in which he indicated that there would be a call coming up and i was not aware of that. there was differences, let's just say, in understanding about that call. >> were you in f

the other witness was david holmes. holmes said he was told the president did not care about ukraine, only in getting dirt on democratic rival joe biden and biden's son, hunter. he said the person who told him, that was the u.s. ambassador to the eu, gordon sondland. holmes said he was with sondland in a restaurant as sondland spoke with mr. trump on the phone. quote, i heard ambassador sondland greet the president and explain he was calling from kiev. i heard president trump then clarify that the ambassador was in ukraine, ambassador sondland replied, yes, he was in ukraine and went on to state that president zelensky, quote, loves your ass. i then heard president trump say, so he's going to do the investigation? ambassador sondland replied, he's going to do it adding that president zelensky will, quote, do anything you ask him to. marie yovanovitch was testifying when the president himself attacked her on twitter. >> the president is facing accusations he crossed the line, sending a tweet that amounts to witness intim

holmes, you also understood burisma was code for bidens? >> yes. >> you never put burisma together with the bidens? >> i didn't. i proceeded to look it up on the internet. i googled it. >> did you find it had some association with hunter biden? >> yes. >> i was not made aware of any reference to biden or his son until the call was released on september 25th, 2019. >> how do you explain those discrepancies. >> difficult to explain. one company, obviously a big important company in ukraine but one company, and nobody thought to ask, hmm, why burisma? why is the president so fixated on this one natural gas company? all you have to do is google it. in 30 seconds or less you can see the connection to the biden family and hunter biden. it was unusual. i thought it was particularly interesting sondland and volker, no long ear career service officer, cam in as a political appointee, they're the ones that say they didn't put this together but the career officials, foreign service officers, nonpartisan officials did. >> and sondland said in his openi

chairman thank you and dr hill and mr holmes thank you both for being fact witnesses we are here as fact finders and we appreciate very much your presentations dr hill i want to verify this story i understand that when you were 11 years old there was a schoolboy who said you were pigtails on fire and you were taking a test you turned around with your hands. snuffed out the fire and then proceeded to finish your test is that a true story that is a true story was a bit surprised to see that pop up today it's one of the stories i occasionally tell because it had some very unfortunate consequences afterwards my mother gave me a bowl haircut so. the skill photograph letter in the week i looked like richard the 3rd or a cellphone going to be in a permanent well i think it underscores the fact that you speak. truth that you are steely and i truly respect that let me move to your testimony in your deposition you had indicated you were deeply troubled by the bitches. the attacks on her and you underscored again today that about serve at the pleasure of the president and certainly in the case of a

holmes. dr. hill, you have provided me probably the greatest piece of evidence that's before us to illustrate the problem with hearsay. so you said based on questions and statements i have heard some of you on this committee, that would be us appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country. and perhaps somehow for some reason it was ukraine. this evidence was held up by devin nunes as the report of active measures voted on by all of us, it begins in this sentence, in 2015, russia began engaging in a covert influence campaign, aimed at the u.s. presidential election. every one of us, small effort on your part, dr. hill, and you would have known, what you just said was not true, what you had heard but you felt the need to put it in your eight-page statement before you went on to tell us other things that you heard about other people no matter how convinced you were of also which were not necessarily true, one of which was that you said that amb