we know mueller. do we know anything more about the president speaking to mueller's team. >> we don't, in terms of how the internal negotiations are going between the president's legal team and robert mueller's team. what we have reported and do still believe is the case for fr our sources is that there is a real split among people who have influence with the president on whether or not this is a good idea. i've talked to several people who have told me that they have made it clear to him and those around him that it would be horrible for him to do -- to just sit down with robert muchlt eller in any way, shape or form for a whole host of reasons. one, because they think that it would be a perjury trap for him and also because the president and a whole other list of reasons. but there are those who think that he should try to cooperate. and one of those people who are suggesting that maybe it's a good idea, we're told, is the president himself, who thinks, you know what? i've done hundreds of depositio

trump has faced many lawyers but none quite like mueller. chris hayes who has done a few russian interviews of his own, is here to talk about potential cross-examination and what's next in the probe. at social med. she buys stocks in companies that "stand for something." you like her. she's always up on the latest trends. she got in early on the whole goat yoga thing. and her sunsets are always #nofilter. you like her. but you'd like her better if you made more money than she does. don't get mad at @just_marea. get eátrade. it happens when reality exceeds expectations. sail with the #1 cruise line in alaska, princess cruises, come back new. (gasp) (singsong) budget meeting! sweet. if you compare last quarter to this quarter... various: mmm. it's no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream. with the creamy taste of philly, i no wondering, "what if?" uncertainties of hep c. i let go of all those feelings. because i am cured with harvoni. harvoni is a revolutionary treatment f

mueller is way ahead of us. he knows a heck of a lot more than we do, but i think there is a lot of road ahead of us. >> two terrific guests. thank you, gentlemen, for adding so much to our conversation, frank figliuzzi and chuck rosenberg, appreciate it very much. more to come when "the 11th hour" continues. in no hurry to make anything happen. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® works in just one week. with the fastest retinol formula available. it's clinically proven to work on fine lines and wrinkles. one week? that definitely works! rapid wrinkle repair®. and for dark spots, rapid tone repair. neutrogena®. see what's possible. hi, i'm the internet! you knoarmless bowling.lt? you got this, jimmy! you know what's easy? building your website with godaddy. pick a domain name. choose a design. you can build a website in under an hour. now that's a strike! get your domain today and get a free trial of gocentral. build a better website in under an hour. i love you. jimmy's gotten used to his whole yup, he's gone

mueller. the special counsel overseeing the russia investigation. the president ultimately backed down, though, after the white house counsel threatened to resign rather than carry out the directive. this west wing confrontation marks the first time mr. trump is known to have fired -- excuse me, the first time mr. trump is known to have tried to fire the special counsel, which makes me think were there other times he tried and failed to fire the special counsel? this confrontation marks the first time he was known to have fired the special counsel. at this time you're asking yourself, okay, the president is being investigated for obstruction of justice by robert mueller, who he didn't succeed in firing. does robert mueller know about this incident when the president tried but didn't succeed in firing him? does robert mueller know about this episode? according to the "times," yes. mr. mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and senior official

the probe, but recall that this was the time that mueller was -- it was publicly reported that mueller was directly focused on trump in the investigation. he was actually investigating possible obstruction of justice as part of his broad russia investigation. i think the timing is quite interesting and despite mcgahn pushing back and not ultimately following through on what the president wanted clearly shows the president's intent to get rid of mueller and concern possibly about what mueller was doing. robert: that question of intent hovers over all of this. what's next for the white house counsel, don mcgahn, confidante of the president. should we be expecting him to be asked to testify on capitol hill? carol: i don't know if that testimony is the central point. there may be people who want to ask him that exact thing but what's interesting is what he already told special counsel bob mueller. we there were when we saw him enter the special counsel's office for his interview and it strikes me that what he's already told the federal investigators looms large over the president as he fac

what is mueller looking at? why is mueller focusing on certain issues rather than others? and in the process of that, we kick up different things. we're just trying to follow the facts and understand as much as we can about this presidency. >> michael schmidt, good work tonight. you know you're always welcome on this broadcast, michael schmidt, co-author of the "new york times" story. eli stokels, kimberly atkins, chief washington reporter for the boston herald, and gerald bash, also former counsel to house intel. kimberly, as both lawyer and journalist and a unique dual role in this conversation, how big is this? >> this is very big. i mean, this is an important piece in what we've been seeing over time which looks to be a concerted effort by this president to push back or stop efforts to investigate what is going on in the russia investigation. we saw first the pressure on james comey to get him to publicly say there was no investigation, then the firing of comey, then the pressure on other officials including members of congress, to message the frustration about this in

the possibility that mueller will be gone? >> yonk we know. i think we've seen a t pattern of president trump and members of the administration repeatedly attack the credibility of the investigation in an effort to i think distract from the fbi and special counsel from being able to do their work. we need to think about how this is playing globally. all these threads play into putin's hands. the intelligence community has agreed that the russian's goal is to undermine faith in our democracy. our legal system is a key pillar of that and almost every day now, we have stories about the administration trying to denigrate the fbi. >> that was one of the conclusions of the u.s. intelligence community and law enforcement community that the russian goal in interfering in the election. the first to embarrass the united states and to create division. >> the story they should be talking about is what do they do about the next election. whether they're guilty, whether they testified, what the president did wrong. can you tell me how many

he didn't fire mueller. and i find it very ironic this information is coming out while he's here in davos. while he had great fanfare. you and me i would love to get a look at steve bannon's phone record and see who he's talking to and how the information is out there. second thing is that the president talks to everybody and so this information apparently happened in june. why is it coming out right now like a big water balloon object president when he's having a fantastic trip here in davos meeting with world leaders and about to get a fantastic speech about global prosperity and global growth? i find this to be a nonsensical story. and another in the -- >> i appreciate you -- it matters too much. it can't be a red herring. a red herring is a distraction for what is otherwise important. the timing of -- >> we're distracting from the president's speech tomorrow. and all the great things he's doing here in terms of laying the ground work. distracting from the business leaders meetings he had today. the meeti

we know that mueller knows this. mueller has known this for some time because of interviews with white house staffers. how does that figure into his thinking and to your point now. we saw example of this what you're talking about yesterday. the president wasn't when asked about what he asked andy mccabe, the acting fbi director at the time in the oval office about whom he voted for in the election which is inappropriate. you're not supposed to talk to people about politics. that's why bob mueller didn't talk to the attorneys that he hired about whom they supported politically. you're not supposed to. however, the president said when asked. i don't think i asked him that. i don't remember. if i did it's not really that important. you can say that to the media. you can say that and it's up to us to be able to check it. the white house has not backed off the suggestion he said that to andy mccabe. mccabe hasn't said it didn't happen. if you say that in front of these investigators, you expose yourself to questions that

mueller. what do you think about the possibility how would that work if you would to remove rosenstein? >> you want me to answer that question. >> please, thanks. >> i think that would have similar political ramifications. rob rosen sign is a career respected deputy attorney general. he's been a u.s. attorney in both republican and democratic administrations. to remove him in that scenario without any just cause i think would cause a lot of alarm and panic. i don't know that it would be any better than firing robert mueller because it would suggest you're trying to elevate someone who obviously might be more sympathetic to your views in overseeing the investigation. so i think that too would be a disaster for president trump. >> swen, talk about the mood in the white house with respect to this investigation because we know the president's obsessed with it. he watches a channel that talks about these sort of conspiracy theories. we know he's been railing against mueller and sessions publicly an

mueller is way ahead of us. he knows a heck of a lot more than we do, but i think there is a lot of road ahead of us. >> two terrific guests. thank you, gentlemen, for adding so much to our conversation, frank fagliuzzi. more to come when "the 11th hour" continues. will bring. but our comprehensive approach to financial planning can help make sure you're prepared for what's expected and even what's not. and that kind of financial confidence can help you sleep better at night. with the right financial advisor, life can be brilliant. (vo)just one touch.ith with fancy feast creamy delights, she can have just the right touch of real milk. easily digestible, it makes her favorite entrées even more delightful. fancy feast creamy delights. love is in the details. the winter of '77.uring i first met james in 5th grade. we got married after college. and had twin boys. but then one night, a truck didn't stop. but thanks to our forester, neither did our story. and that's why we'll always drive a subaru. >>> you know, loya

did the president say he wanted to fire robert mueller? >> well, i have no inside information regarding what he did or didn't say. that wasn't part of my portfolio while i was in the white house. >> you never heard him say that he wanted to fire robert mueller? >> no. and i couldn't talk about it even if i d. so let's move on from that. >> hang on. i just want to get to this quickly and then get to a bigger issue because i think it is important. any knowledge did you ever he ever hear that he threatened to quit to stop the president from firing robert mueller. >> i wouldn't be able to do it under my obligations anyway. >> have you testified to special counsel? we have heard eight lawyers, eight people have? >> again, i wouldn't be sitting here today if i had been interviewed. so the answer to that is no as well because of my ethical obligations having left the white house recently. >> good. now, that we have that behind us, what is your take on the reporting that cnn has confirmed that the president said he wanted to fire robert muler and

president why did you fire robert mueller? why did you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks. "new york times" fake story. >> in the nixon era that's what they called a nondenial denial. joining us with his first reaction to the public reaction is the author of the best selling book in the world right now, michael wolff, the author of the "new york times" best-seller "fire and fury," inside the trump white house. thank you for coming back. >> thank you for having me. >> your book is filled with versions of the president complaining about the special prosecutor, making references to wanting to fire the special prosecutor. the special prosecutor has talked to reince priebus, the special prosecutor is going to talk to steve bannon, who you spent a lot of time talking to. the special prosecutor has been talking to many of your sources in this book. has the special prosecutor reached out to you to talk to you about either the firing of the special prosecutor or any other elements of this story? >> he has not. >> and if the special prosecutor does want to interv

mueller first. tom, six months ago when the president was supposedly thinking about firing mueller, here was the reaction from some republican senators. >> any effort to go after mueller could be the beginning of the end of the trump presidency. >> i think it would be as explosive as anything i can think single act that the president might take. >> we would certainly advise that step not to be taken. i think this is a man who many believe on both sides of the aisle has tremendous integrity and will do his work in a very diligent way. >> we have not had the same sort of reaction from republican side of the aisle. it's been much morewell m look, happen and we'll worry about it if it does. you heard leader mccarthy there claiming he has confidence in mueller but -- >> well, i think two things. one was, i was here for the saturday night massacre and the nixon white house thought that was going to unleash their ability to deal with what was going on and it was another nail in the coffin. there ought to b

trump can fire mueller. he's allowed to fire mueller if he thinks he's going too far. the investigation will continue. best thing, welcome questioning, try to have it done as soon as possible so you get the probe wrapped up. president trump can return to fighting about infrastructure and immigration reform. >> john you're an interesting fella. i got just a couple more questions. i have to. what terms should the president and his attorneys agree to in terms of answering the questions by mueller? >> mueller is a very experienced prosecutor. he was head of the fbi himself. he was attorney out here in san francisco. he is not going to want to let anything be written down first. prosecutor wants to have the questions oral. he want to see where they go. mueller is going to resist letting the president has lawyers to put anything in writing. president's lawyer doing great job. they're getting investigation done fast. >> what should they push for? >> i think what they should try to do is try to get everything down in writing that might cause perjury. that's what they're worrie

face-to-face if mueller wants to go there? >> i think it will either be in person or he'll find himself being questioned in a grand jury. i think that mueller will want to have an interview with him face-to-face. that's the kind of thing prosecutors live for, that is to get the adversary or the suspect or target on the other side of the table and have a shot at him to see where they're at. i think trump is going to find himself there. let me say this. rod rosenstein is a good guy. i served with him in committees, on the u.s. attorney community. i think if trump is waiting on him to do his bidding, he's w t waitishiwai waiting on the wrong man because he's got too much credibility to take an action. >> thank you all. >>> coming up, the man who reportedly told the president, don't fire robert mueller, but who is white house counsel don mcgahn. and why is he at the center of so many controversies? >> and later, what we're learning about how first lady melania trump spent her week amid salacious headlines about her husband and a p

he was saying fire mueller the time. i want to fire mueller all the time. michael wolff said it was like wallpaper so people did not take it seriously and it might, in the president's mind, have never been a specific order. and since it wasn't carried out he may not believe he issued the order. >> apparently don mcgahn took it seriously and was willing to resign rather than carry it out. i wouldn't describe this as wallpaper based on what the "new york times" the "the washington post" and others have reported. what leaps out at me about this disclosure, this new report, is how much in common it has with the comey situation. with the firing of comey what the president had at his disposal were memos from rod rosenstein and from jeff sessions that provided a pretext, another explanation to give to the public for why comey was being fired. that is, he treated hillary clinton unfairly. now that is obviously not very plausible and the one who made it clear that was not the real motivation was the president himself. but similarly here with the attempt to fire bob

president trump did not fire mueller. mueller is still on the job. and -- >> that's not what has been alleged, stephanie. it's been alleged that he called for his firing, said i want him out, and that don mcgahn said, no, basically you're going to have to go through me if you want to fire him, i will resign. >> exactly. it was alleged. alleged. we don't know that for a fact. >> it's been independently confirmed. nbc news has confirmed it too. >> okay. well, a lot of these things have been independently confirmed and they end up having to be retracted and then we have all these news organizations apologizing for it. mueller is still on the job. if president trump had a private conversation, bouncing maybe these ideas, wondering if there was some sort of conflict with the mueller team, we know a lot of the mueller team had donated to the hillary clinton campaign, the full amount of donation than they possibly could. some of them were lifelong donors to the democrats. so there was question whether there was conflict. and we know one of the biggest scand

>> i don't think it matters whether it was mueller's investigators or mueller. from my reporting, i do not know whether mueller actually did the questioning himself. mueller typically comes in and will speak with the witnesses at different times. come in and talk to them, sit in on the questioning. i'm not sure how significant of a role mueller played in it. at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. mueller's investigators are out there doing the interviews, collecting the information, sifting through things and figuring out what they're going to do. they're at the front lines of this. he can't, obviously, do everything. >> does sessions have an outside lawyer? >> yes. he has an outside lawyer. this long-time washington lawyer, chuck cooper, who has represented him since all these question came up over a year ago. mr. cooper is someone that has known mr. sessions for a long time. >> i know this is tricky, but i remember last week when steve bannon was speaking with members of congress, and there was this executive privilege. he could talk about things up

we got to fire mueller. how can we fire mueller? get rid of this guy. it was just the stuff that comes out of president's mouth. >> in that sense you're describing a workplace in which they don't take the guy saying this stuff seriously to the point where they have to execute it but if he pushes it up to an order then they have to issue threats to resign? >> yes. nobody wants to be there. the new york times curiously makes this sound normal. even if it makes it sound like there's a man that's thought through something and made a decision. there are no decisions here. it's just blather. when does blather -- of course blather can become a decision. the comey firing, nobody expected the comey firing to happen and then it happened because he did it on his own. he just went rogue and suddenly it happened. i believe expects a and continues to expect mueller fired. how that happens is a kind of a three dimensional thing. every day he's firing mueller. >> it's making that case for his lawyers to try to make that presentation of the character. the prosecutors an

if he fired mueller without cause. i mean, mueller's doing a good job. i have confidence in him to get to the bottom of all things russia. and don mcgahn, in the story is true in "the new york times" did the right thing. good news is the president listened. i know this, mueller should look at it. i have complete confidence in mr. mueller. when he found two fbi agents with a bias against president trump, he fired them. all this stuff about the fbi and doj having a bias against trump and for clinton needs to be looked at. i have never believed it affected mr. mueller. i'll do whatever it takes to make sure mr. mueller can do his job. we're a rule of law nation before president trump. we're going to be a rule of law nation after president trump. i haven't yet seen any evidence of collusion between mr. trump and the russians. the investigation needs to go forward without interference. and i believe it will. >> you believe the stories about mcgahn? about president trump? >> i don't know. i believe it's something that mueller should look at. we're not just goi

mueller was appointed as special counsel on may 17th, 2017, and in the sixth months that followed, mueller interviewed nine officials, including former white house chief of staff reince priebus and former white house press secretary sean spicer. in november, that's when mueller began closing in on the president's inner circle, interviewing senior policy adviser stephen miller and the president's son-in-law jared kushner. the biggest bombshell yet came on december 1st. that's when michael flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi and announced he was fully cooperating with the special counsel's probe. and just a few weeks later, mueller interviewed white house communications director hope hicks and white house counsel donn mcgahn. in january, we learned mueller issued a subpoena to the former white house chief strategist steve bannon. he's going to be testifying. 's going to be answering questions later this month, we're now told. and on january 17th, he sbh interviewed the attorney general of the united states, jeff sessions. as i said earlier, president trump could eventually be added to t

my point, if he wanted to fire mueller, he would have just sacked mcgahn and fired mueller. i'm curious to know what else happened around this situation that the president didn't go through with it -- >> he wanted to give an order on the ban of immigrants. sally yates refused. it did not go through. so that doesn't mean just because he didn't -- it didn't happen, that he didn't try to do it. his intent was to do it. >> i'm not disputing the reporting. but he has actually gone through with other things. i mean, he obviously fired comey. there have been moments where he did things and there have been moments where he didn't do things. i think the interplay there is important context for this conversation tonight. >> robbie? >> he had -- comey, he had someone at the justice department as a sort of fig leaf and an excuse to do it, right? the rosenstein memo. i think he was probably hoping he would get the same thing here where mcgahn would go through it and he could say oh, my white house counsel did it. he said it was fine. >> go ahead, robbie. i know you want to weigh in on th

mueller left the club over that. the second reason was jared kushner was using lawyers at a washington law firm where bob mueller was a partner. the third reason, the potential conflict the president used as rationale for wanting to fire mueller was mueller had been interviewed to be the fbi director under trump the day before he was named special counsel. so those were the reasons that the president had told don mcgann he wanted him to direct the justice department to fire mueller. mcgann disagreed with that and threatened to resigned. our crack research team has gone back and said since august, the president, the white house and aides have denied eight times that the president ever considered or contemplating firing mcgann. it's very interesting today to see trump calling this fake news. we'll see what the white house has to say later today. >> the president himself has said that on camera. before you go, i thought it was fascinating or very telling what ty cobb said last night and gave us in response to all this.

mueller. and the under oath portion, robert mueller is an fbi agent. >> so it doesn't matter? >> you can't lie to an fbi when they're questioning you. >> can you cut a deal before you go into that interview that, you know, not just that it's not going to be under oath but that you aren't exposed to that kind of criminality? >> sure. i'm certain you could cut whatever -- there are a number of options in terms of cutting deals. i think for the president's sake, he's got to go in, and he's got to show the american people that he's telling the truth, that he did not obstruct justice in this matter. >> he didn't have corrupt intent. you both usehat term. always a safe assumption that i don't know what you mean. normsen, corrupt intent, what does that mean? >> corrupt intent means that you're doing something for a wrong purpose. it literally, when you instruct a jury, chris, the jury is told was the reason that the defendant committed the action evil, wrong, or bad? examples -- if president trump --

mueller. >> we will eventually -- when the movie is made of this, when you write the best selling book about this somewhere down the road, my friend, we will learn more about the sourcing of the stories and the strategy behind the sourcing of the stories why we're learning about it in january if it was in june, why there are four sources who are willing to talk to the times about this, the kind of worries the individual white house staff have about their own liability on these things. in hindsight this will become clear but right now we're living through it minute by minute trying to understand how serious this stuff is. >> if one witness tells the special counsel something, that might not leak out. but this is a story that more than one witness has information about. so you have, you know, reince priebus, former white house chief of staff, he was chief of staff at the time this was happening so he would know this was happening. he has spoken to the special prosecutor, don mcgahn has spoke --

we have no idea what mueller knows. what mueller knows is a great deal more than any of us. for the president so say, look there has been no collusion, therefore, i'm cleared. that pre supposes that mueller has actually reached that conclusion and he does not. think about an examination done in a jigsaw puzzle of sorts. you have to have enough pieces in play to understand what the ultimate image will be. when you have the president of the united states looking to be interviewed by mueller and mueller would like to interview him. he is trying to put in the remaining pieces. trump has no idea. he is probably trying to get ahead of it in his media-related commentary. he like everybody else is thinking what do you know or can i avoid saying? >> jim, i need to get this in. sorry. we will run out of time. cnn is also reporting mueller's team has interviewed attorney general jeff sessions and former director james comey. what do we know about that? >> well, look at this. jeff sessions was just last week. comey was the end of last year. it's natural that the special counsel would sp

he had to get rid of mueller. >> when "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. as the president's lawyers continue to negotiate the terms of his looming interview with the special counsel, the president's friends and aides are panicking and the republican counteroffensive against the justice department is shifting into overdrive. tonight the white house is denying it had anything to do with the abrupt departure of a top fbi official whom the president has been openly attacking for months. nbc news broke the story the deputy fbi director andrew mccabe left the bureau today effective immediately months before his expected retirement. one source said mccabe was exercising his retirement eligibility, characterized his decision as stepping aside. but according to other outlets, the decision may not have been voluntary. cbs news reporting that mccabe was forced to step down. fox news reporting that he was removed from the fbi. now the president's attacks on mccabe go back to 2016 after

>> n -- mueller? >> these sources went all the way to switzerland today from the "new york times," to t"the washington post" to fox news. but more important, perhaps, than this cascading waterfall of lies is the fact that this is just the latest evidence of p m president trump's desire and actions to end the russian probes. last year president trump kicked off his reliationship with his own fbi director by asking james comey for his loyalty, a request made just days after being interviewed and michael flynn lied to them about his contacts with russia. that lie was something mcgahn told president trump about that month. and president trump later tested that loyalty request by urging comey to drop the fbi appropriation into flynn, whom he had just fired and ultimately the president, as we know, fired comey. we also know the president leaned on his attorney general, jeff sessions, to not recuse himself from supervising the russia probe. then after the recusal contemplated firing sessions. the president h

mueller. and bannon ranting against the idea of what the president thinks he can accomplish by firing mueller. >> we will eventually -- when the movie is made of this, when you write the best selling book about this somewhere down the road, my friend, we will learn more about the sourcing of the stories and the strategy behind the sourcing of the stories why we're learning about it in january if it was in june, why there are four sources who are willing to talk to the times about this, the kind of worries the individual white house staff have about their own liability on these things. in hindsight this will become clear but right now we're living through it minute by minute trying to understand how serious this stuff is. >> if one witness tells the special counsel something, that might not leak out. but this is a story that more than one witness has information about. so you have, you know, reince priebus, former white house chief of staff, he was chief of staff at the time this was happening

the people for saving mueller are no longer for saving mueller. any clues as to why that's the case? >> i mean, i think at this point, one of the things that's sort of baffling, sort of take another step back and look at is the fact that donald trump should by now have learned the lesson that firing someone isn't going to end this investigation. it's not going to end the investigation. >> it could have opened up a new one. >> exactly. >> it could have been the firing of yates, firing of comey, the lackadaisical firing. the firings are all flash points where you bring everyone into the white house and interrogate them. >> exactly. all it has done so far is take it up a notch in terms of the importance and intensity. so, i think that at this point, i think one of the things that was very revealing about the "times" piece yesterday, it seems as though ty cobb has put a lid on donald trump's emotions about the investigation. this thing is wrapping up soon, chill out, we're going to get through this, right. that seems to have worked. donald trump has b

i don't know where team mueller is on this. it would seem to me that at some point they would want to have a face-to-face interview with the president. trump's team talks about ronald reagan and what happened during iran contra, and ronald reagan gave written answers to questions during iran contra. so they clearly would like that to happen. i don't know if that's enough for mueller. >> jeffrey toobin, "the washington post" is reporting that mueller wants to question the president in the coming weeks, specifically about the firings of michael flynn, his former national security adviser, around former fbi director james comey. what does that tell you? >> well, that to me has always been the heart of the case. even more than collusion. collusion is not a crime. the president's supporters have been pointing that out from day one. there are possibly crimes associated with involvement between the trump campaign and russia. but it is difficult to shoehorn that behavior, whatever it might be, into the criminal horn. however, obstructi

mueller is the one that's going to parse this. mueller is the one that's going to ask the appropriate questions. probably has asked the appropriate questions relative to it. and as we get closer and closer to the request for a discussion with the president, we'll see the facts continue to play out. >> if somebody tries to do something to impede an investigation into them and a criminal act, would you see that as obstruction of justice? >> well, they have to have criminal intent. you talked about -- you said it succinctly earlier. they have to have criminal intent. they have to corrupt intentions. >> right. they'd have to be doing it to disrupt that effort to bring them to justice, right? >> correct. correct. >> and that will be the question, and it is only one man's reckoning that we get of it, but it is the man. it's the president we're talking about. james schultz, i appreciate your mind on this matter, especially on a friday night. thank you for doing it. >>> so some lawmakers say mueller now especially needs to be protected fr

and now we know he tried to get robert mueller fired. this is a pattern. >> the fact that the president wanted so badly to get rid of jeff sessions and why? because jeff sessions recused himself. and why did that bother the president? because it led to the appointment of bob mueller. >> msnbc's kristen welker has more on why the white house is fighting back on the reports which overshadowed the president's trip to davos. >> reporter: in davos, president trump lashing out at reports he ordered the firing of special counsel robert mueller last june. >> fake news, folks, fake news. >> reporter: a source with firsthand knowledge of the matter tells nbc news mr. trump ultimately backed down when his white house counsel, don mcgahn, threatened to quit over it, saying the move would be catastrophic. the news first reported by "the new york times" said it all happened amid the first reports mueller was looking into a possible obstruction case. the white house on defense. >> we know that the president is not considering firing mueller. we want to

do we know what he might tell mueller? >> what i've been told is that the question eof the indication of the executive privilege is not something where bannon has been able to make decisions for himself. it's up to the white house whether or not to invoke privilege. so essentially, the standoff that we with saw today, even though it was between bannon himself and members and staffers of the intelligence committee, in reality was between the white house and members of the intelligence committee. perhaps a little overdramatic to say that bannon is a pawn in this situation. but he is not a character whose acting. he see not making the decisions about what he can and can't tell people. and that's why i this executive privilege question which again is something the white house invokes is such an important one. one person i spoke with pointed out to me that executive privilege, an important part of how executive privilege works is based on the constitutional separation of powers theory. the idea that the executive branch should

he fired mueller. he said so very clearly on this network, on nbc that he did so because of the russia investigation. now we learn that he continued to fire mueller. and so that should be very concerning. they should move this week on protecting the mueller investigation. >> but victoria, let's look a lot what we have witnessed the last year. the president has made all kinds of threats that he does not follow through on. if it fair to make the case that it is just his actions or lack of actions that should matter here? >> well, let me back up a minute. the highlight of public opinion is really divided partisan wise in terms of whether there is something between the trump campaign and russia. about 50% is there is a there there and the other 50% doesn't. this week we again saw the majority of the country, a majority of republicans put country before party. even if half the country doesn't think there is collusion between the trump campaign and russia, close to 80% of the public thinks that donald trump

mueller first. tom, six months ago when the president was supposedly thinking about firing mueller, here was the reaction from some republican senators. >> any effort to go after mueller could be the beginning of the end of the trump presidency. >> i think it would be as explosive as anything i can think single act that the president might take. >> we would certainly advise that step not to be taken. i think this is a man who many believe on both sides of the aisle has tremendous integrity and will do his work in a very diligent way. >> we have not had the same sort of reaction from republican side of the aisle. it's been much more muted saying, well, look, it didn't happen and we'll worry about it if it does. you heard leader mccarthy there claiming he has confidence in mueller but -- >> well, i think two things. one was, i was here for the saturday night massacre and the nixon white house thought that was going to unleash their ability to deal with what was going on and it was another nail in the

bob mueller knows they're the known unknowns. let's look at one of the places where they dug themselves a hole in terms of the veracity, the truthfulness, if you will, of those comments, was around what was behind the decision to fire jim comey. let's watch some sessions testimony. >> specifically, what was your designated role in the decision to fire director comey? >> it is -- it's a manner that i can share some information about because the president, himself, has talked about it and revealed that letter. he asked that deputy rosenstein and i make our recommendations in writing. we prepared those recommendations and submitted it to the president. senator feinstein, i don't think it's been fully understood the significance of the error that mr. comey made on the clinton matter. >> so, chuck rosenberg, that would be a fine and good thing to say under oath if it were true, but we know from donald trump's interview with lester holt that he fired jim comey because he didn't like the way the russia investigation was going. what does

but now that mueller, state versus federal, but mueller is targeting trump. law enforcement, you can't question them. they can't do any wrong. if they should never be fired, they shouldn't even be question questions! one would think that the media, some in the media would have a little bit of curiosity about, i don't know, the conflicts of interest in the special counsel's office. if they distrust law enforcement and investigators on the state level so often, why do the feds get a pass? well, there is without a doubt a deep-seated animus, and that is putting it mildly, toward the president by key members of the mueller investigative team. and rather than confront the growing evidence, the left, they start demonizing members of congress. and anyone, frankly anyone, who dares to question the methods and the motives of the obama justice department and now the mueller gang. the black cloud that hangs over this russian investigation, let me tell you this, it wasn't created by fox news. it certainly wasn't created by talk radio. none of us hired jeannie reed, who p

because he thought mueller would be fair. this puts the white house once again scrambling to control the narrative, and trump isn't making it easy for them. >> what does if say that the president was willing to fire mueller after all that came out from the firing of comey? >> it shows somebody who is impatient with the process, if he feels he's being held to a certain standard, he doesn't want to be put under scrutiny, he says i don't like this process, i want to change it, i want to do something different. he's always been an incredibly impatient man, whether on the campaign trail, whether running his companies, whether firing people on "the apprentice." it shows how when things don't go his way, he's very willing to question the entire underlying system and say, hey, let's change it, let's shake up the narrative and make this a better process for me. >> i'm curious, alexi, with regard to political fallout, does the mueller story this week, does that at all change the narrative for the president politically speaking? will re

>> i have confidence in mueller. i have questions about others within the fbi and the doj, especially what's come out in the texts, especially what it's been based on. i think it's the responsibility -- we have an intel committee. that's raced a great deal of question. >> is there a red line the president could cross with you in his treatment of bob mueller? >> the president and his team have fully cooperated. you're making hypotheticals. right now -- >> it's not a hypothetical. we have records that he ordered to do it and don mcgann threatened to quit if asked to carry out the order. >> this is a place i have not been a part of. i have not heard that. the only thing i have seen is cooperation is where we intend to end up. >> would you open if there's bill that protects -- you know, there's a couple of bills in the senate, one would be having a three-judge panel review a decision if the president did fire mueller to see if it was done on fairgrounds. would you be open if that bill is attached to the budget bill, woul

mueller. the president ultimately backed down, though, after the white house counsel threatened to resign rather than carry out the directive. this west wing confrontation marks the first time mr. trump is known to have fired -- excuse me, the first time mr. trump has known to have tried to fire the special counsel, which makes me think were there other times he tried and failed to fire the special counsel? this confrontation marks the first time he was known to have tried to fire the special counsel. you're saying okay, the president is being investigated for obstruction of justice by robert mueller who he didn't succeed in firing. does robert mueller know about this incident when the president tried but didn't succeed in firing him? does robert mueller know about this episode? according to the times, yes. mr. mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and senior officials in his inquiry into whether the president obstructed justice. remarkab r

i think the mueller investigation ought to go forward. i also think we ought to get to the bottom of what could be corruption in the department of justice and the fbi. we do not want the federal government spying on american citizens with warrantless wiretaps. so both issues have to be addressed. but i think the president came to the right decision on that. >> so you believe the story? >> i don't know. there have been so many stories on this particular quote/unquote russia investigation, i don't know what to believe anymore. we'll see. >> will this story in particular has sources, cnn confirmed it, fox news confirmed it, does that give you some confidence it may be true? >> well, perhaps. i mean, i'm inclined to believe those sources, but by the same token, a number of corrections brought forth by member of the mainstream media on the russian story already, every network, every newspaper had to issue corrections and we can go through them. i don't think it is necessary. >> any correction on any story to you makes you doubt the totality of

president, did you seek to fire robert mueller. >> fake news, folks. >> the plot to fire mueller. >> typical "new york times" fake stories. >> tonight new concerns the threat to the special counsel hasn't passed. and yet, one republican is backing off his plan to protect robert mueller and what all this means for the russia investigation. >> i haven't given it any thought. >> then. >> yeah, maybe donald trump wanted to fire the special counsel for conflict. does he not have the right to raise those questions. >> can trump tv sustain the president through his latest crisis. >> the president says it's fake news. what do you think? do you even care? >> the finance chief for the republican party faces new allegations of sexual misconduct. >> steve has always got advice. >> when all-in starts right now. >> his advice i like to listen to. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the president just landed back in washington from his trip to davos. he returns to yet more questions about his actions toward special counsel robert mueller's investigation. the president was attending the

just as the trump firing let to mueller and the mueller firing would lead to somebody else. it's a practical matter for him to shut down the investigation. >> woodruff: the white house counsel saying i'm going to quit if you do this, other threats to resign from other up in justice as we know, there's a lot of clear disagreement, turmoil. what does all that say to you? >> it suggests it's very hard to work for president trump. chris ray, the f.b.i. director, this week threat topped resign. stories in the past about the attorney general and the deputy attorney general. the president is mercurial and engages in self-destructive actions and actions that violate norms that make it extremely difficult for people to work with him and the only leaf rang they have is to resign or threaten to resign. every instance so far the president's backed down and there's actually a somewhat happy story here in that despite the extraordinary attacks by the president, despite his attempts to impede the independence of the justice department and the f.b.i., they seem to have resisted so far. the

mueller. mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and former senior white house officials in his inquiry into whether the president obstructed justice. the washington post adding, quote, trump's ire at mueller rose to such a level that then white house strategist steve bannon and then chief of staff reince priebus grew incredibly concerned that he was going to fire mueller and sought to enlist others to intervene with the president, according to a trump advisor who requested anonymity to describe private conversations. both of the men were deeply worried about the possibility and discussed how to keep him from making such a move, this person said. the president woke up to the news in switzerland and responded with what has become a reflex for him. >> mr. president, why did you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks, fake news. typical new york times fake story. >> but no denials from his attorney ty cobb, from don mcgahn or anyone el

we went back and looked. >> this special counsel mueller needs to be shut down immediately and mueller and rod rosenstein recused themselves, resigned immediately. >> he should recuse himself. he's incapable of carrying a fair and inpartial mpartial investigation. mueller needs to end it now. >> that was back in june. it's been similar rhetoric, not just in june but vent recently g from republican lawmakers. i want to know how that affects things on capitol hill. joining me say democratic congressman member of the counter intelligence and ranking member of the subcommittee on the cia. i wonder, congressman, how it affects how you do business on capitol hill when you have colleagues trying to undermine and tear down the investigation. >> the president doesn't have to fire mueller. in directly, we see the credibility under attack every day on the house intelligence committee by republicans and house judiciary committee. what i hear from colleagues is words that are parroted by sean hannity. the efforts to perpetuate conspiracy theories and go after somebody who received the bronze star a

>> -- mueller? >> no, there's no conversation about that whatsoever in the white house. >> that highlight reel goes to why the president's legal team and why people inside the white house are so skittish about the idea of the president sitting down and saying what he knows under oath to the special counsel's office. it's one thing for the president to come out in front of the cameras here in davos and call the story fake news. it's quite another to do that if he special counsel's office. he could open himself up to charges of perjury if he gives false statements to the special counsel's office. that's perhaps one of the biggest reasons why his legal team is so worried about him going through with his words he expressed the other day and saying he would sit down with the special counsel's office, wolf. >> jim acosta, thank you very much. coming up, much more on the reaction on the blockbuster news that the president tried to fire robert mueller. and could a pair of figure skaters ratchet down the ten