that's the bottom line. >> and karen desoto, one asks what's the evidence for that that he wanted to? i guess it's the f'ing punks, these ahs always get away. >> you have to go for the depraved mind and all we have is a bunch of curse words on a 911 tape. obviously the defense is going to say that that does not rise, that is not proof that should put this man in jail. you know, we have again the self-defense aspect. one of the reasons why the defense stayed away from the lesser included defense in arguing that because they feel if you find it for second degree, then you have to find it for the lesser included. >> we'll go through the elements of second defense. lisa, paul, tad, karen are all staying with us. coming up, the jury's been instructed on the law and now they have the case. let's get into the what may sway them as they deliberate the fate of george zimmerman. later to the role race may play in the jury's decision. this is "hardball," the place for politics. pores just by washing your face? [ female announcer ] neutrogena® pore refining cleanser. alpha-hydroxy and exfoliatin

we're rejoined by our panel, lisa bloom, tad nelson and karen desoto. something that surprised me today was the lack of argument by either side, differentiating in their closings between second degree murder and manslaughter. i really think that's an important part of the case, and yet both seemed to stay away from it. what what's your read on that? >> i wanted to hear more on those differentiations. obviously the issue with the second degree murder is the intent. but beyond that, i think the bigger issue is the self-defense. and i really wish both parties had spent more time ar particular rating why the self-defense is successful or why it fails. i brief that's the real legal issue. and that's what i brief the jury is in that room now trying to discuss and trying to figure out whether or not there's a real self-defense and where that failure or success fits in between those two charges. >> tad nelson, i think a difficult aspect for the prosecution's case is that evil intention. in meeting the requirement and that's why they spent so much time as you kn

we're back with lisa bloom, paul henderson, tad nelson and karen desoto. paul, is there an aspect of this case, the evidence of this case you think is being overlooked by those of us who are paying very close attention? something that you're saying, you know, i think this is going to have great meaning in the minds of those jurors? >> i really think it's the race issue. i mean, it's the one thing i wanted to hear more of. i think there was an expectation that ultimately both sides were going to address. and that that never happened. and i believe that the jurors are feeling the same way. it's something that i feel, colors, no pun intended, a lot of the evidence, and i think would have helped them come to a faster conclusion and would have facilitated the deliberation process. >> lisa bloom, what are you reading in this case that's not getting wide circulation? >> yeah, first of all, i'm growing very fond of that paul henderson. i agree about race. this jury can be trusted to look at gruesome autopsy photos. >> right. >> yet we can't trust them to hear a li

we're joined by joy reed, karen desoto and michael eric dyson. fundamentally profiles this young man, and then alleges he's an outright liar. what was your performance? >> his performance was great given the facts of this case. now you have the law, now questions and assumptions, and secondhand differences is not going to get them to the end goal of a second-degree murder. s because nobody knows what happened, nobody knows who started the fight. one is dead and the other one is not talking. so that's the problem here the defense will give up and say these questions. they just conceded that. they could be firmly convinced thatself dense was not being used here, and that's the unfortunate problem here, and it's going to go back to the state of florida. the prosecution were working from much of what george zimmerman had said instead, reference to the a-holes who always get away with it, and the -- this proving the motive, that animus toward an individual he did not know that he believes was a criminal. an observer like mr. zimmerman to profile him.

karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. and karen cadet, "huffington post black voices." that account george zimmerman gives in that taped interview differs from other testimony we heard. maybe he jumped -- but it's like you followed him, you followed him. you precipitated this whole thing. if it ends up being the case you precipitated him and trapped him for no reason other than he was a suspect in your mind, then it went down the way you said, and this dude beat the crap out of you because you were following him, then you get to shoot him and what? >> you're making the point because this is the frailty of the -- or i think the inherent injustice of the stand your ground law. who can stand their ground? you jump on me, you ambush me, you have a set of stereotypes in your mind and i cream you. i'm getting the best of you. oh, you're going to beat me? >> the standard here isn't even stand your ground. this is just self-defense. right? >> i mean, obviously this was a tragic accident, but i think that trayvon martin's parents have a great case against the state of florida be

karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. and karen cadet, "huffington post black voices." talking about day six of the george zimmerman trial. that account george zimmerman gives in that taped interview differs from other testimony we heard. what other eyewitnesss heard. maybe he jumped -- but it's like you followed him, you followed him. you precipitated this whole thing. if it ends up being the case you precipitated him and you tracked him for no reason other than he was a suspect in your mind, then it went down the way you said, and this dude boat the crap out of you because you were following him, then you get to shoot him and what? >> you're making the point because this is the frailty of the -- or i think the inherent injustice of the stand your ground law. who can stand their ground? you jump on me, you ambush me, you have a set of stereotypes in your mind and i cream you. i'm getting the best of you. oh, you're going to beat me? >> the standard here isn't even stand your ground. this is just self-defense. right? >> i mean, obviously this was a tragic accident, but

joining me now is karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. james peterson, msnbc contributor, director of african studies. and tim wise, anti-racism educator and author of the book "dear white america: letter to a new minority." it was incredibly difficult to watch trayvon martin's father on the stand today trying to hold it together, trying to keep his composure under these conditions. and it's strange to much time being spent on contesting this one piece of evidence, whose voice is on the tape? why is that important to the case, karen? >> it's important because obviously the defense wants to prove that zimmerman was not the aggressive, he didn't provoke the situation and that he didn't create the situation. so if he was the one crying for help, obviously, you know, he wasn't the one who put himself in that situation. that's what they're trying to prove, and obviously whoever's crying for help is the person that's in a position of vulnerability. and if that's zimmerman, obviously his self-defense is going to be a lot more credible. >> it str

but i want to bring in now msnbc contributor, goldie taylor, defense attorney, karen desoto, and msnbc contributor, professor james peterson. and if i might, let's begin with trayvon martin's father, tracy martin, who was asked on the stand his reaction the moment he heard what had happened. take a listen. >> can you describe to the jury what was going through your mind when you were listening to that? >> basically what i was listening to, i was listening to my son's last cry for help. i was listening to his life being taken. and i was coming, trying to come to grips that trayvon was here no more. it was just tough. >> goldie, i was watching that and i found that a painful and plaintive cry of a father. what was your reaction to that testimony? >> my reaction was much the same. that tracy martin fought hard for this day and that he is getting this day in court to defend his son, which he -- he doesn't believe he ought to be able to do. you want to know some background about tracy martin and his relationship, trayvon. trayvon martin saved his father from a house fire. they were best fri

joining me now is karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. james peterson, msnbc contributor, director of african studies. and associate professor of english at lehigh university. and tim wise, anti-racism educator and author of the book "dear white america: letter to a new minority." it was incredibly difficult to watch trayvon martin's father on the stand today trying to hold it together, trying to keep his composure under these conditions. and it's strange to much time being spent on contesting this one piece of evidence, whose voice is on the tape? why is that important to the case, karen? >> it's important because obviously the defense wants to prove that zimmerman was not the aggressor, he didn't provoke the situation, and that he didn't create the situation. so if he was the one crying for help, obviously, you know, he wasn't the one who put himself in that situation. that's what they're trying to prove, and obviously whoever's crying for help is the person that's in a position of vulnerability. and if that's zimmerman, obviously his s

joining me now, paul henderson and defense attorney karen desoto. thanks for joining me on this big news day. pa paul, i'm going to start with you. the white house just released a statement from president obama which reads in part, i know this case has elicited strong passions and i know in the wake of verdict i know those mags hes may be running higher. but we are a nation of lawes and a jury has spoken. >> i think as a prosecutor i'm frustrated and i'm frustrated when whenever there is a victim and the family sufferes a loss. i think the bigger issue in this trial is the voice of concern from many disenfranchised communities that feel like the criminal justice system failed them. i've been a prosecutor and litigator for a long time. i believe the system works best when everybody is at the table and inclusive. in this case, i believe the voices we are hearing criticizing this case is because they didn't feel like all of their voice has heard. this was a very difficult case from the beginning given facts and evidence that the prosecution had. i thin

kar karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. and karen cadet, "huffington post black voices." that account george zimmerman gives in that taped interview difers fr e difers from other testimony we heard. maybe he jumped -- but it's like you followed him, you followed him. you precipitated this whole thing. if it ends up being the case you precipitated him and trapped him for no reason other than he was a suspect in your mind, then it went down the way you said, and this dude beat the crap out of you because you were following him, then you get to shoot him and what? >> you're making the point because this is the frailty of the -- or i think the inherent injustice of the stand your ground law. who can stand their ground? you jump on me, you ambush me, you have a set of stereotypes in your mind and i cream you. i'm getting the best of you. oh, you're going to beat me? >> the standard here isn't even stand your ground. this is just self-defense. right? >> i mean, obviously this was a tragic accident, but i think that trayvon martin's parents have a great case against the state of

. >> we heard those last words, karen desoto, from john guy. in your experience, are those last arguments the one that stay with these jurors most? >> they always tell you it's the first and last things the jury remembers. you're really hammering home the theory of your case, which was a little problem for the prosecution because it really wasn't cohesive. there were a lot of theories going on. i think both sides did a wonderful job but what struck me the most about the closing arguments was there were a lot of conclusions, a lot of assumptions. so the reasonable doubt again comes into play there, especially with john guy, who is very, very passionate about what he was saying and what he was doing. and i thought he did a wonderful job in evoking the emotion and trying to close up those gaps that he had, which was a great job. listen, you know, the defense had some work cut out for them, they had to explain those inconsistencies. i think he did a great job. but at the end of the day, it seems like a lot of the evidence kind of fell short. you ma

lisa bloom and karen desoto. well, the young pakistani woman who was almost killed by the taliban for advocating education for girls is sharing her courageous story with the world. malala youssif spoke at the united nations. ♪ happy birthday to you >> reporter: a birthday on a world stage. >> so here i stand, one among many. >> reporter: at a special assembly of teens for malala u yousafzai. >> let me say the words that the taliban never wanted her to hear. happy 16th birthday, malala. >> reporter: it was ten months ago that the taliban ryed to kill her for promoting education for girls. her survival ignited a global movement. >> weakness, fear, and hopelessness died. strength, power, and courage was born. they thought that the bullet would silence us, but they failed. and out of that silence came thousands of voices. >> in fact, millions have signed her petition to provide education for every child around the world. >> she has experienced the discrimination. she has suffered because of her wle beliefs. and she

and defense attorney karen desoto. let's take a look at trial testimony before we get into this general conversation. let's look at the conversation here. let's go to they call him zimmerman's friend, mark osterman. osterman wrote a book called defending our friend, the most hated man in america. he describes what zimmerman told him happened at the crime scene. >> what does mr. zimmerman say happened then? >> he said that because his jacket road up a bit, that with the, perhaps, with the inside of his leg, he felt or looked down and saw that he had a holster and a firearm. >> before the defendant said that, did he say that he desperately got both of my hands around the guy's one wrist and took his hand off my mouth long enough for me to shot again for help? >> right. that is the main thing he did with his hand was to try to clear his mouth. because with his mouth free, he could scream and he could breath. >> later in a trial today, lead defense attorney mark ow'mara asked about the series of event. >> as he related to

joining me now is karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. james peterson, msnbc contributor, director of african studie studies. and tim wise, anti-racism educator and author of the book "dear white america: letter to a new minority." it was incredibly difficult to watch trayvon martin's father on the stand today trying to hold it together, trying to keep his composure under these conditions. and it's something to etrange t being spent on contesting this one piece of evidence, whose voice is on the tape? why is that important to the case, karen? >> it's important because obviously the defense wants to prove that zimmerman was not the aggressive, he didn't provoke the suchinituation and that he t create the situation. so if he was the one crying for help, obviously, you know, he wasn't the one who put himself in that situation. that's what they're trying to prove, and obviously whoever's crying for help is the person that's in a position of vulnerability. and if that's stimzimmerman, obviously his self-defense is going to be a lot more credib

lisa green, karen desoto. thank you, ladies. we also want to state that mr. zimmer haan has sued nbcuniversal for defamation. >>> the backlash of all the offers being made to edward snowden. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004. vietnam in 1972. [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve military members, veterans, and their families is without equal. begin your legacy, get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve. >>> new information this morning in the edward snowden saga. russian media now reporting venezuela has given the nsa leaker until tomorrow. it's a diplomatic problem for the white house that now pales in comparison to the crisis in egypt where they've been thrown into upheaval. joining me now, steve thelma, senior white house correspondent and lauren fox from u.s. political report. welcome to both of my friends. steve, i'm going to begin with you. i'm

desoto. joy, miss seen tell says race was clear laically a part of this while juror b-37 says it was not even discussed in the jury room. why was that? >> it didn't have to be because she also said in that interview that of course trayvon martin was suspicious. i mean there he was in his hoodie walking through the neighborhood in the dark and in the rain. ipso facto suspicious. she had such an engrained sense that george zimmerman was inherently good and that stray von martin was inherently suspicious you didn't need to put it on the table with five white jurors in the room and we're saying one of ambiguous race. she was in the minority. that doesn't matter. the point is there are so many assumptions that these jurors brought to the table, that where i think expert lit exploited by the defense defense when they showeded that picture of trayvon with the shirt off when they had a white woman who lived in the complex say black teenager broke into my house. they used a lot of subject 8al cues whe

. >> let me go to karen desoto. seems to me, talking to lisa bloom last week, pretty good defense attorney, what this trial is going to come down to after all the other discussions, relevant or not, as they decide by the jury whether relevant or not, we go to the question of self-defense, whether it's self-defense, and whether the defendant here in this case, george zimmerman believed at the time he made that decision to draw and shoot his gun whether he was in danger of the gravest >> right. >> now we are getting testimony that doesn't seem to be challenged yet that there was a fight, a physical brawl. he was on a sidewalk. apparently agreed to that at some point. his head was hitting the sidewalk then the question is how many times does your head hit the sidewalk before you wonder if you are getting grievous bodily harm or not. are with we there or is that not stipulated at this point? >> right. >> are we that close to what is a margin call here, what is a judgment call? what? >> there is one point, the self-defen

dyson, criminal defense attorney karen desoto. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >>> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. they held a party today in texas. 5,000 people turning out on their lunch hours in austin. look at this. outside the state capitol in the baking july heat. they had dancing and music including from natalie maines from the dixie chicks and a band called the bright light social hour did a song that went on for at least four minutes and contained a single word, wendy. ♪ wendy, wendy, wendy that would be wendy as in wendy davis. the texas democratic state senator who last week filibustered an antiabortion bill in texas until the clock ran out on the special session. and even though texas' majority republicans are back again this week as of today trying to pass that same bill, the scene outside the texas state capitol in austin today, at least for opponents of that bill, it was kind of a party today. it was kind of a party. a righteous texas party in the heat. thousands of people on the steps o

. >> criminal defense attorney karen desoto. msnbc contributor james peterson. anti-racism ector tim wise. that is "all in" for this evening. the "rachel maddow show" starts now. tonight, special guest host, ezra klein. good evening, ezra. >> i should have known i would have seen you around these parts. >> i'm looking forward to the spitzer interview. i'm going up to my office to watch it. >> thank you very much. >>> thank you to you at home for sticking around the next hour. just because rachel has the night off and well deserved, it does not mean the news took the night off with her. there is the huge announcement texas governor rick perry made today about his political future. >>> then also in texas, the popular uprising to the abortion bill that governor perry is making sure, making certain the texas senate is going to get a chance to actually pass. that battle is heating up again tonight after the long holiday weekend. >>> and as chris mentioned, for the interview tonight, you might have heard of former new york governor eliot spitzer, maybe running for off

. >> paul henderson, tad nelson, karen desoto. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >>> good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. it was 16 1/2 months ago, february 26th, 2012, the altercation between trayvon mention min martin and george michael zimmerman took place in sanford, florida. tonight the fate of george zimmerman rests in the hands of a jury of six. there's other news tonight including an actual appearance of edward snowden in moscow. we'll show you later. we begin, of course, in florida, where 5 1/2 hours ago after 12 days of testimony, the jury was handed the case of the state of florida versus george zimmerman. the man that's charged with second-degree murder in the killing of trayvon martin. mr. zimmerman has pleaded not guilty. claiming self-defense. the jury has ended its deliberations for the day and will resume at 9:00 a.m. eastern time tomorrow. they've already asked the judge a question, in the short time since their deliberations began. they requested a list of all the evidence they were presented

. >> i want to bring in karen desoto, too. >> when you're a new attorney and low man on the totem pole at the prosecution's office, one of the things you spend a lot of time doing is appeals. i can tell you jury instructions are really important because a lot of times when these cases are getting reversed that they're getting reversed on jury instructions. because they're lay people, instructions like intent, reasonableness, those are standard definitions i always ask for because i feel like when they come back to do a readback, ask for clarification, it's url about those definitions. jurors are coming back with questions that you could really save a lot of time by putting in those standard definitions. >> you think the instructions weren't complete enough sm. >> no. a lot of time is spent fighting over jury instructions. when i sit down to do a case, i do my jury instructions first before i do anything else. my final jury instruction and my closing argument. one of the reasons for that is because obviously your theory of the case is going to be correlated around what the jurors are go

karen desoto and lisa blume and former prosecutor john burris. i have been scrolling through the newspapers especially the local newspapers to see how they are reporting on this. we are at a very dramatic point of the trial. the sentinel head lye is what it if there is a hankerer? hung jury. >> the fir question was about an index to the evidence that they got. and today this he have a question about manslaughter. if there was any indication of a hung jury it would be a question like what do we do if we can't all agree or we have one person who is a problem. we have seen that in high profile cases. we don't have anything like that. there is no limit on jury questions. they can ask as many questions as they want and go back and forth with the judge. sometimes jurors get kind of warmed up when they start sending out questions and start sending out more questions. this is the first substantive question we have from the jury. they only had the one about the index previously. the judge is sort of educating them. i can't just engage in general colloquy

. >> criminal defense attorney karen desoto. msnbc contributor james peterson. anti-racism ector tim wise. that is "all in" for this evening. the "rachel maddow show" starts now. tonight, special guest host, ezra klein. good evening, ezra. >> i should have known i would have seen you around these parts. >> i'm looking forward to the spitzer interview. i'm going up to my office to watch it. >> thank you very much. >>> thank you to you at home for sticking around the next hour. just because rachel has the night off and well deserved, it does not mean the news took the night off with her. there is the huge announcement texas governor rick perry made today about his political future. >>> then also in texas, the popular uprising to the abortion bill that fwomgovernor perry is making sure, making certain the texas senate is going to get a chance to actually pass. that battle is heating up again tonight after the long holiday weekend. >>> and as chris mentioned, for the interview tonight, you might have heard of former new york governor elliot sfipitzer, mayb running f

. >> let me go to karen desoto. seems to me, talking to lisa bloom last week, pretty good defense attorney, what this trial is going to come down to after all the other discussions, relevant or not, as they decide by the jury whether relevant or not, we go to the question of self-defense, whether it's self-defense, and whether the defendant here in this case, george zimmerman believed at the time he made that decision to draw and shoot his gun whether he was in danger of the gravest bodily harm. >> right. >> now we are getting testimony that doesn't seem to be challenged yet that there was a fight, a physical brawl. he was on a sidewalk. apparently agreed to that at some point. his head was hitting the sidewalk then the question is how many times does your head hit the sidewalk before you wonder if you are getting grievous bodily harm or not. are with we there or is that not stipulated at this point? >> right. >> are we that close to what is a margin call here, what is a judgment call? what? >> there is one point, t