they come across the world and the problem somalia faces todayd is because they base in the somalia but their actions, their organization, their ideology is global and their principles of fighting global jihadism. so what we know is that they have been doing this for one reason which is they're still leaving and they are continuing to do the work. that is what they're doing because killing innocent people in situation like that has no meaning at all. >> rose: do you think this represents this attack? represents a new strategy, them going back to pure terrorism? >> and not trying to focus on extending their power in somalia? >> no, i don't think it's a new strategy as such. this is just proving that they are existing when they lost the ground. there's no -- in a major city or important area that they're controlling in somalia right now. they remain in remote areas. so since that bombing increasing it's just trying to show the world or their supporters that they're still existing. it is the last move of -- >> rose:. >> rose: do you believe they are a dead organization? >> they are dying.

they come across the world and the problem somalia faces todayd is because they base in the somalia but their actions, their organization, their ideology is global and their principles of fighting global jihadism. so what we know is that they have been doing this for one reason which is they're still leaving and they are continuing to do the work. that is what they're doing because killing innocent people in situation like that has no meaning at all. >> rose: do you think this represents this attack? represents a new strategy, them going back to pure terrorism? >> and not trying to focus on extending their power in somalia? >> no, i don't think it's a new strategy as such. this is just proving that they are existing when they lost the ground. there's no -- in a major city or important area that they're controlling in somalia right now. they remain in remote areas. so since that bombing increasing it's just trying to show the world or their supporters that they're still existing. it is the last move of -- >> rose:. >> rose: do you believe they are aead organization? >> they are dying. th

is so somalia is broken and now we have these other groups which many would say american policy and western policy in somalia generated these groups and now it's spreading further as i said is the cure worse than the disease here when we look at the war on terror. well let's consider for a moment what's been going on for the last twelve years in somalia we've had cia covert operations we've had joint special operations command forces doing covert operations we've had private contractors. military operating in somalia since nine eleven they've been conducting targeted assassinations air strikes drone strikes all of affected to billions they're. they've scattered. groups but also created new ones and polluting al-shabaab which has been which has taken responsibility for what happened in kenya. the united states has worked with ethiopia and kenya to bring invading forces into somalia which have been responsible for brutal human rights violations create the united states has created an intelligence infrastructure in somalia the notorious jail or prison interrogation center in at the air

most somalia experts said there ale no more than one doesn't qaeda-connected individuals in somalia after 9/11 terror the u.s. hired these warlords and they ended up murdering vast numbers of people that were religious scholars, and in some cases, they would literally chop peoples heads off and bring them to their american liaison. you have this utterly thuggish collection of warlords murdering people and doing so, they believed, with the backing of the united states of america, the most powerful nation in the world. that sparked a revolt against the warlords. so, what happened is these coalitions of religious figures from different regions from somalia formed the courts union, and it was 12 sharia courts, meaning there were 12 regional authorities that had imposed some version of law in the areas they controlled. they came together and united as one body area they pooled their resources -- body. they pooled their resources. there was a 13th unofficial , andr, which is al-shabaab that was the only faction within the court union that had any presence of foreign fighters, and they were the

unease now is missed from the answer about movements of attack two kenyan towns on the border with somalia killing at least three people the same group was responsible for the attack on a nairobi mall last saturday which left sixty people dead militants say attacks will continue until kenyan troops withdrawal from somalia. as a key way the editor of the pan-african news while says the incident may cause kenya to rethink its military activities in neighboring countries there's going to be. a more vigorous political debate inside of kenya itself around their involvement in somalia which has been going on now for nearly two years this is a occupation that was inherited by the current government a president who can jada and of course it was started largely at the aegis of the united states which is financing and providing a lot of military a lot just from assistance to the african union mission to somalia which has approximately seventeen thousand five hundred troops occupying somalia actually propping up the somali federal government in mogadishu but there's still a lot of instability inside

policy in somalia generated these groups and now it's spreading further as i said is the cure worse than the disease here when we look at the war on terror. well let's consider for a moment what's been going on for the last twelve years in somalia we've had cia covert operations we've had joint special operations command forces doing covert operations we've had private contractors. military all operating in somalia since nine eleven they've been conducting targeted assassinations air strikes drone strikes all of affected to billions they're. they've scattered. groups but also created new ones and polluting al-shabaab which has been which has taken responsibility for what happened in kenya. the united states has worked with ethiopia and kenya to bring invading forces into somalia which have been responsible for brutal human rights violations create the united states is created an intelligence infrastructure in somalia the notorious jail or prison interrogation center in at the airport there as reported by jeremy scahill in which they have assisted somali government officials in inter

they are still in somalia. and this is scary because some of these guys made it back to the united states, they might create some problems. >> and what you're seeing is a creeping radicalization of the younger element here. and we saw it in boston with the bombings there. it is an entity which many, many terror groups are now operating under. >> after 9/11, almost immediately after 9/ 1, al qaeda switched its roll from being an operational entity to being a motivational entity. so we were focusing on al qaeda's central organization. we didn't focus on the narrative. al qaeda gave a lot of power to the affiliates today. and if you look at the narrative that only existed once in afghanistan and pakistan, now you see it in -- with nigeria. you see it in libya, in mali, in south of yemen, in pakistan. just this weekend, al qaeda affiliated groups killed more than 100 people between karachi and between the -- blowing up the church in karachi, between what's happening today in syria, between killing -- conducting ter

is so somalia is broken and now we have these other groups which many would say american policy and western policy in somalia generated these groups and now it's spreading further as i said is the cure worse than the disease here when we look at the war on terror. well let's consider for a moment what's been going on for the last twelve years in somalia we've had cia covert operations we've had joint special operations command forces doing covert operations we've had private contractors centcom military all operating in somalia since nine eleven they've been conducting targeted assassinations air strikes drone strikes all of affected to billions they're. they've scattered. groups but also created new ones and clothing al shabaab which has been which has taken responsibility for what happened in kenya. the united states has worked with ethiopia and kenya to bring invading forces into somalia which have been responsible for brutal human rights violations create the united states has created an intelligence infrastructure in somalia the notorious jail or prison interrogation center in

command forces doing covert operations we've had private contractors centcom military operating in somalia since nine eleven they've been conducting targeted assassinations air strikes drone strikes all of affected to billions there. they've scattered. groups but also created new ones and clothing al shabaab which has been which has taken responsibility for what happened in kenya. the united states has worked with ethiopia and kenya to bring invading forces into somalia which have been responsible for brutal human rights violations create united states is created an intelligence infrastructure in somalia the notorious jail or prison interrogation center in at the airport there as reported by jeremy scahill in which they have assisted somali government officials in interrogating. people that they've dragged off the streets in these day and day dirty drug infested. insect infested cells underground so yeah the idea of blowback here isn't a surprise we are we are seeing. the remnants are of the outgrowth of what our policy the united states' policy has been in the last twelve years there ok s

bob has been losing support in somalia not just from. military intervention or the early battles with the somali government but because their style of leadership is very unpopular and somalia their cultural hardline and this interpretation of islam their dark kone and their practices does not have that much popular support and indeed i think and it's because of they're losing ground they're getting desperate i think they went and did this desperate act in in kenya so what i'm saying is i think the good news there on the client i think their call that the intervention you know from the west is making making things worse and that the decline would happen inevitably just because the somalis don't like or that kind of rule the kind of violence don't like that kind of extremism richard if i go to you in new york i mean but then again going after these groups these fanatical groups here it creates more blowback what i'm getting at from what we just heard from kelli and from stephen it ends up being a very vicious cycle here when we have extrem

they were basically undercover hiding in somalia. and they lifted their head, i would say essentially hijacked the al shabaab movement. so the islamic course union always had moderate elements, civil society element, and more radical and extreme elements and these became the militant, military wing of it. >> rose: what would you add to that eli? >> well, i would say that at this point what we know is that al shabaab has followed the pattern of a loll of al qaeda related groups. which is that they have proven gruesome in the ability to cause these mass casualty attacks. we saw similar kind of thing from al shabaab in uganda in 2010. but they have failed to translate that into a program where they could participate in a coalition government or even govern their own territory, particularly well. they came under enormous scrutiny for exacerbating the famine in somalia in 2011. i think that lost them a lot of sport among somalies but at the same time they have proven that they are are capable of recruiting people in minnesota and in the u

they are not dead, they are still in somalia. and this is scary, because if some of these guys made it back to the united states they might create problems. >> and what you're seeing is a creeping radicalization of the younger people here. we saw it in boston with the tsarnaev brothers. is this where the terror groups are operating? >> immediately after 9/11, al-qaeda switched its role from being an operational entity to being a motivational entity. so we focused on the al-qaeda organization, and not the narrative. al-qaeda gave a lot of power to their affiliates today. if you look at the narrative that only once happened in pakistan, you see it in yemen, in pakistan, just this weekend. al-qaeda-affiliated groups killed more than 100 people between karachi, so al-qaeda is basically gaining a lot of power and that narrative that we disregarded for a long time is becoming the fuel that is bringing al-qaeda back. >> thank you very much, indeed. >> thank you, sir. >> when we come back, terror in kenya, crisis in syria, is there a con

joining me now is the president of somalia. welcome. >> thank you. >> you're a human rights activist. within 48 hours of your becoming president, you survived an assassination attempt and there have been several more. were these all by al shabaab? >> yes, these were all by al shabaab. you see, what they do usually is always to try to stop any hope that's coming within the society so that they're the center of attraction will be move add way and they're seeing me as someone who is taking that center of attraction from society toward the state building and new beginning of somalia which we initiated. >> people thought al shabaab, this movement, was losing ground in somalia, that the army with african forces had pushed them back and, in fact, there were kenyan forces in part of this. were we wrong? did we misunderstand the strength of al shabaab? >> no, you did not. and the world did not. al shabaab has lost the military front, but their nature is such a way that when they lost the military, they melted down into society and start

a more vigorous political debate inside of kenya itself around their involvement in somalia which has been going on now for nearly two years this is a occupation that was inherited by the current government of a president who can yada and of course it was started it largely at the aegis of the united states which is financing and providing a lot of military a lot just from the system to the african union mission to somalia which has approximately seventeen thousand five hundred troops occupying somalia actually propping up the somali federal government in mogadishu but there's still a lot of instability inside somalia particularly in the south and al-shabaab is still a formidable military threat as far as the u.s. and the somalia federal government is concerned i believe that this incident will cause the existing government in kenya as well as the legislature there. perhaps have a more rigorous discussion around what it actually means to have a two thousand five hundred troops in neighboring somalia so should the u.s. somalia and kenya now do about al-shabaab you say a discussion but

radicals to somalia. >> you are the ones in need, you know? you are the one in need! and we all are in need. >> reporter: intelligence sources say at least 15 of the american recruits have already died in various terror operations, including suicide bombings. the americans are also caught in a power struggle inside al- shabaab. one of the leading propagandists, an alabama born man, publicly broke with the group. sources say he was killed two weeks ago by al-shabaab snipers. now, sources tell us the flow of americans to somalia has greatly slowed but, scott, it has not stopped. >> pelley: bob, thank you very much. now, the main source of american recruits that bob just mentioned has been minnesota. so we sent dean reynolds there. >> reporter: the cedar riverside neighborhood of minneapolis is called "little mogadishu." from the mosque to the market to the man on the street, there was condemnation of the actions of the somali-based terrorists of al-shabaab. this man is a law student. >> all somali people dislike al- shabaab because of not only the violence in their mess

in kenya militants from the islamist movement of time to towns on the border with somalia these three people have been killed including two police officers a smaller based group which was. running out of the message that attacks would continue until kenyan troops withdrew from the country. and his routine presence in somalia in the suit of us about violence has picked up in today's cross-talk program which the debates in just a couple of minutes but here's a preview. i think we have to look at this in two ways first hold as a somali issue going on here and then there's an international issue if you look at the statement made by about the westgate tuck one thing was kenyans you better get out of somalia your face more than this and the second thing was the international community you've got to stop supporting the kenyans and supporting the others in fighting in in somalia we are meddling and somalia targeted assassinations air strikes drone strikes all of affected to billions there. they've scattered islamic groups but also created new ones and clothing al shabaab so yeah the idea of b

they were basically undercover hiding in somalia. and they lifted their head, i would say essentially hijacked the al shabaab movement. so the islamic course union always had moderate elements, civil society element, and more radical and extreme elements and these became the militant, military wing of it. >> rose: what would you add to that eli? wel>>, i would say that at this point what we know is that al shabaab has followed the pattern of a loll of al qaeda related groups. which is that they have proven gruesome in the ability to cause these mass casualty attacks. we saw similar kind of thing from al shabaab in uganda in 2010. but they have failed to translate that into a program where they could participate in a coalition government or even govern their own territory, particularly well. they came under enormous scrutiny for exacerbating the famine in somalia in 2011. i think that lost them a lot of sport among somalies but at the same time they have proven that they are are capable of recruiting people in minnesota and in the uni

they were basically undercover hiding in somalia. and they lifted their head i would say essentially hijacked the al shabaab movement. so the islamic course union always had moderate elements civil society element, and more radical and extreme elements and these became the militant military wing of it. >> rose: what would you add to that eli? >> well, i would say that at this point what we know is that al shabaab has followed the pattern of a loll of al qaeda related groups. which is that they have proven gruesome in the ability to cause these mass casualty attacks. we saw similar kind of thing from al shabaab in uganda in 2010. but they have failed to translate that into a program where they could participate in a coalition government or even govern their own territory particularly well. they came under enormous scrutiny for exacerbating the famine in somalia in 2011. i think that lost them a lot of sport among somalies but at the same time they have proven that they are are capable of recruiting people in minnesota and in the unite

about the somalia group and it has been a problem in somalia for a lot longer. >> yeah, absolutely. for the first 6-7 years al shabaab has been operating here and somalia lived with attacks since that time. as you can imagine there are a lot of people who are direct victims who suffered directly under al shabaab and caught up in attacks and forced to move their homes. we have been out across mogadushu talking to the somalia about the west gait offensive. he understands the pain of al shabaab attack, in one bombing earlier this year he lost his restaurant, two staff and his nephew. his daughter died in another. the blast that took his business was aimed at a government official, the suicide bomb detonated it in a car outside the restaurant. he heard al shabaab justification for the west gate attack and says it's hyprocacy. the mayor has plenty of experience with al shabaab and showed me the concrete barriers around his office they hope would fend off would be assassins. >> it's a religious war in the city. it's not military it's religious and we need qualified, well trained individua

a warning in arabic to day that kenya should pull its troops out of somalia or else. you have seen what you will reap. which is only the beginning. this follow-up written message in english. rest assured, kenyans are in for a big surprise. is that the face of terrorism in 2013? >> actually, social media. youtube videos, tweets are part of terrorist organizations propaganda and part of, their operations. >> the former fbi agent -- awe when they do something like this they want a lot of people watching. >> reporter: the al-shabaab unit turns out videos, many aimed at americans featuring american recruits like this young man who supposedly came from minneapolis but was killed in fighting after recording this tape. >> if you guys only knew how much fun we have over here. this is the real disneyland. come here, join us. >> reporter: powerful word of mouth according to london's royal united services institute. >> from the group's perspective, these individual are useful they help project their ideology on one hand and help bring funding and bring recruits. >> reporter: ther

radicals to somalia. >> you are the ones in need, you know? you are the one in need! and we all are in need. >> reporter: intelligence sources say at least 15 of the american recruits have already died in various terror operations, including suicide bombings. the americans are also caught in a power struggle inside al-shabaab. one of the leading propagandists, an alabama born man, publicly broke with the group. sources say he was killed two weeks ago by al-shabaab snipers. now, sources tell us the flow of americans to somalia has greatly slowed but, scott, it has not stopped. >> pelley: bob, thank you very much. now, the main source of american recruits that bob just mentioned has been minnesota. so we sent dean reynolds there. >> reporter: the cedar riverside neighborhood of minneapolis is called "little mogadishu." from the mosque to the market to the man on the street, there was condemnation of the actions of the somali-based terrorists of al-shabaab. this man is a law student. >> all somali people dislike al-shabaab because of not only the violence in their messag

that's al shabab's thinking here. >> it's not just what's happening in somalia. kenya seems to be supportive of the united states as well. if that is a message, is it possible that we might be seeing that spread of soft target terror to the u.s.? because, quite frankly, it's been 12 years since 9/11 and there's been no terror attack in a mall. there have been shootings in a mall, don't get me wrong, but no terror attack in a mall so far. >> we've taken steps to secure aviation and we've made it that much harder to do. they are going after a soft target because they are vulnerable. when you start shooting up american citizens inside the united states, he start creating that emotional event that starts putting pressure on their government to make changes and that's what they are hoping for. you can win the war from within because you can't win it from without. >> let me ask you about this issue that, you know, when they tweet you can't really know to take it at face value or not but when they tweet, we will not negotiate, what does that mean? if you take hostages,

as you mentioned they have rarely attacked outside of somalia. here is a timeline. 79 killed in camperform ala -- campala and other attacks. they have been limited to small attacks around somalia's capital of mogadishu until this weekend. do you see the westgate attack as an act of desperation by a group on its way out, richard? >> it's not a group on its way out. it's been growing among somali refugees in kenya. they are competing for recruits and money. among the recruits they are losing potential recruits into the syrian civil war, drawing recruits from across the arab world. they had to do something big and dramatic to show the young men who are likely to be their recruits that they are players, an attractive option for those that can't get to syria. they are competing for money. they have to show funders across the arab region, that they are capable of carrying out attacks and deserving of financing that may go into the syrian civil war or iraq where afghanistan is somewhere else. given this the organization had to do something dramatics. th

>> viggo in countries and slide into somalia. >> there is no government in somalia. there is no law. so everything is legal. so what i did was a paid my way in hot and flew into somalia that way. >> were you doing on the cover here and what is this on your head? >> that is a hole that was punctured in the cinderblock. that picture i'm on the roof of a building where i stayed in mogadishu. we were not allowed to leave the compound when i was there because it was too dangerous to be out on the streets. so the only place i could go to relax was on the rooftop. so my friend, peter, he snapped that picture. >> to the military cooperate with you on this book? >> i did get some help initially in setting up the interview with the young ranger. after a little while, i think they got tired of me. because i think there used to dealing with writers who write for newspapers and magazines writing relatively short story straight when they set up the initial 12 interviews from you, that was obviously the very beginning for me. i think they got tired of my request for a certain point

it is based in neighboring somalia. and some of the representatives are on twitter today sending messages that all muslims were escorted out of the shopping mall before the violence began. and the group will not negotiate. one victim describes the chaos. >> we tried running away, but we were told they are also covering the place so we can't escape. so we had to move back into the corner, the left corner of west gate, and we were all there and we tried escaping and they threw a grenade and the grenade -- the sharp particles entered into my hand and leg. there were very many peel who were injured. >> you heard him say west gate. that's the name of the shopping mall. connor powell has more from our mideast bureau. connor? >> al-shabab is aal al-qaeda-linked group and they wreaked havoc on that country for the past few years. they vowed to hit nairobi after they sent troops to somalia about two years ago to try to dislodge al-shabab from power there. they had taken over much of somalia over the past few years. they say the

this is definitely al-qaeda and led by somebody not from somalia and kenya for that matter and somebody from another part of the world. >> reporter: a spokesman for al shabaab which said it carried out the attack it says forces from israel and britain and u.s. have taken part in the rescue mission. >> they have attempted on numerous occasions to storm the building from the jewish and regarding the operation and killed 13 and 4 white who they believes to be jewish. >> reporter: calls for calm in kenya continue to pour in but once again the people are in shock and some mourning the loss of loved one, others fears whether there could be more suffering, more loss to come. and that fear, that sense of loss runs deep. it's hard to find anyone in nairobi who doesn't know someone caught up in the attack. some recall the al-qaeda bombing of the u.s. embassy in 1998 when many were killed and they are still coping with the grief. it's fair to say they have not even started to come to terms with it. andrew simmons, al jazeera, nairobi. >> reporter: peter is live at the scene for us. peter, what is

jerry, you were in somalia. there's footage of you being on a rooftop with incoming fire from al shabaab fighters, basically. what do you make of the conflicting reports about whether al shabaab or al qaeda did it, and who is al shabaab and how are they different from al qaeda? >> right, well, first of all, al shabaab was a group of relative nobodies in 2006 during the bush administration. they were a sort of outlier in a group called the islamic courts union, which was largely made up of, almost exclusively made up of somali actors. and these actors meaning players on the scene in somalia. and al shabaab was the sort of group among those that sort of had the most allegiance to al qaeda or affinity for osama bin laden's message, but they had no political sway whatsoever domestically within somalia. the u.s. partnered with the ethiopian military in 2006-2007 and staged an invasion of somalia, and they dismantled this government of the islamic courts union, which was the only government that brought stability in s

the somalia federal government is concerned. this incident. cause the government in kenya as well as the legislature. perhaps have a more rigorous discussion around what it actually means to have two thousand chronic troops in neighboring somalia and we'll keep you updated on this ongoing story remember you can always get more by logging on to our website you can go online to get access to the latest pictures updates and witness accounts from the scene of the tragedy all that is waiting for you at r.t. dot com. to some other international news in brief the eastern part of pakistan has been struck by a powerful seven point eight magnitude earthquake at least forty five people being killed according to local authorities the deaths occurred in a district near the epicenter where almost a third of the buildings said to have collapsed tremors are being reported all around the region as far as india's capital new delhi hundreds of kilometers away. a fourth day of nationwide protests in bangladesh turned violent as police clash with clothes factory w