i mean, you know, there was orange county which went wrong in 1995, there was procter & gamble, gibson greeting cards, there were other problems with securitization before, and he should have done more. i agree with you, but -- >> host: well, they all should have. it's easy to focus on alan greenspan because he was so prominent and such of an apparent superhero at the time. >> guest: but i think the message, one more thing on this, the message which is maybe underappreciated and which i hope my book will slightly correct is that there were instances in which the fed did try. so it tried, as i just said, on subprime mortgages. alan greenspan tried to push back against the gses, fannie and freddie -- >> host: yeah. let's talk about that, actually. >> guest: okay, yeah. >> host: because that was a place where he was really worried. testified and talked and made very clear he was worried about the capital and the high leverage at fannie mae and freddie mac. in the end, he didn't push it very hard. di >> guest: well, he testified in congress i think more than once, and he said that these in