one was willy horton, stabbing a boy 19 times. despite a life sentence, horton received ten weekend passes from prison. >> the willie horton ad was very searing, and it ran about the same time. and it clearly was, you said in the book there was backlash, that it was a play on race. lee atwater -- >> guess who wrote them a letter and told them to stop it. me. and they stopped it. >> yeah. after a few weeks. >> david, i know -- you know, i admire what you did in your campaign and you were very, very effective, but look, michael dukakis in a debate when he was asked if someone broke into your house, murdered his wife and raped her, if he would then support the death penalty, and he said no. >> in kitty dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an ir revocable death penalty for the killer? >> no, i don't, bernard. i've opposed the death penalty my whole life. >> we didn't have anything to do with that. >> no, listen, i've thrown hard punches in my career. but i'm -- i'm interested in the issue of race. lee atwater, who was a gr

that's what politicians did with willy horton. that's what we're used to. the two ways of interpreting trump and his way of doing is t is, one, not being a politician, he didn't get the memo that you're supposed to cover up your stuff. that somebody forgot to remind him that, hey, we play a game. and you don't really know the game. but here's the game. maybe. the other possibility -- this is more frightening -- is that we're at a place now in this country where one doesn't need to dog whistle, where you can use the bullhorn and not lose s. that goes to carol's point about -- lose support. that goes to carol's point about blacks and whites. i wrote about this five years ago that you had four things happen at once. any one of which could have sparked wide anxiety. awe four of which were guaranteed. one, the election of barack obama which challenges white folks' notion of who the leader should be. and not just the black guy, but a black guy with an exotic name who's from hawaii or kenya or wherever we think he's from, right. and so that's number one. the secon

it's not like bush 1 for instance with willie horton, which was bad, by the way, right? not definite. this is a thing in order to get over. it's the core of him. he began his career in birtherrism. it wasn't along the way. that was what kicked it off. so i think in that sense, he's different. >> there's a real question i think about sometimes about trump and i think about ross perot. >> right. >> where i think about it. i remember living through the ross perot phenomenon and thinking there was all these pieces like the two-party system is broken forever. there is a transformational moment in american politics, nothing will be the same. it turned out he would be an answer to the trivia question. there was no pre roism. it was a sui general phenomenon. i wonder which paths lay before us. is he this transformational hinge in american history about the appeal of particularly white nationalism front and center or relegated to a kind of footnote? >> i don't know, i hope it's the latter t. arguments of the former though is, in fact, as much as i say trump is different. he actua

the dialogue is so polarizing that this is becoming the modern 2.0 version of willie horton. and they have really made the narrative such that this is all what immigrants do here and whether it's california, texas, iowa. so amplify your coalition and make sure it's cold multifaceted. you're not can agree with everything but they'll be things you'll walk away with something siler. one thing other very quickly is the multitask coalition between the fence, states and local governments on issues of human trafficking and international drug cartels as well as terrorist cells and you don't want an unintended consequence prohibiting that as i is is not primarily for deportation purposes. i listen to police chiefs and others say you are right, we have to fix and change that because god forbid we don't wanna prohibit collaboration if there's a terrorist cell within your own backyard. i grew as a result. >> thank you. the question i was asking is similar, you had the senators remarks about california. it texted a very different environment. the california -- texas has gone in the opposi

this has become the modern 2.0 version of willie horton, how they have ostracized and used immigrants, any unfortunate tragic crime and have made them narrative in such that this is all that immigrants do whether it's here or texas or iowa or here in washington. you have to engage and be respectful. you won't agree with everything, there will be tough negotiation negotiations. the things i learned, one thing i learned, very quickly is the coalition between the feds, state and local governments on human trafficking, drug cartels as well as terrorist cells. you didn't want unintended consequence as long as it is not primarily for deportation purposes. things i learned, i said i listen to police chiefs and i didn't want this to be the unintended consequences. we have to change that because god for bid we don't want to prohibit collaboration, between the law-enforcement agencies if there was a terrorist cell in your own backyard. these are things i learned and i grew as a result. >> the question i was asking you was sort of similar. you heard the senators remarks about california, texas e

dixon, buddie guy, shakey horton, jt brown who played saxophone in elmore james band and if you listen to early fleetwood mac records, it is basically elmore james on steroids. so it was a moment pregnant beyond imagination and a thrill to be playing music with our heroes, you know, in their home. obviously, the book gets from this sort of if you like the happiest days of blues playing into more turbulent period in which i think you say we were all taking psychedelic drugs. it doesn't come across as an advert for psychedelic drugs. is that how you look on it? no, this is very, it is driven by images. so it's really about the music and the people and the kudos to those members. this is not... if you pick peter green, who as i said, the book is dedicated to... we should say he left the band in 1970, despite being really the founder of the band. he is the founder. i mention him there. but there is no fleetood mac without peter. but really did his brain in in a serious way with lss. -- lsd. this book is not about that, this is about touching on what the music was all about and to who these