>> -- mueller? >> no, there's no conversation about that whatsoever in the white house. >> that highlight reel goes to why the president's legal team and why people inside the white house are so skittish about the idea of the president sitting down and saying what he knows under oath to the special counsel's office. it's one thing for the president to come out in front of the cameras here in davos and call the story fake news. it's quite another to do that if he special counsel's office. he could open himself up to charges of perjury if he gives false statements to the special counsel's office. that's perhaps one of the biggest reasons why his legal team is so worried about him going through with his words he expressed the other day and saying he would sit down with the special counsel's office, wolf. >> jim acosta, thank you very much. coming up, much more on the reaction on the blockbuster news that the president tried to fire robert mueller. and could a pair of figure skaters ratchet down the ten

the probe, but recall that this was the time that mueller was -- it was publicly reported that mueller was directly focused on trump in the investigation. he was actually investigating possible obstruction of justice as part of his broad russia investigation. i think the timing is quite interesting and despite mcgahn pushing back and not ultimately following through on what the president wanted clearly shows the president's intent to get rid of mueller and concern possibly about what mueller was doing. robert: that question of intent hovers over all of this. what's next for the white house counsel, don mcgahn, confidante of the president. should we be expecting him to be asked to testify on capitol hill? carol: i don't know if that testimony is the central point. there may be people who want to ask him that exact thing but what's interesting is what he already told special counsel bob mueller. we there were when we saw him enter the special counsel's office for his interview and it strikes me that what he's already told the federal investigators looms large over the president as he fac

mueller. the president ultimately backed down, though, after the white house counsel threatened to resign rather than carry out the directive. this west wing confrontation marks the first time mr. trump is known to have fired -- excuse me, the first time mr. trump has known to have tried to fire the special counsel, which makes me think were there other times he tried and failed to fire the special counsel? this confrontation marks the first time he was known to have tried to fire the special counsel. you're saying okay, the president is being investigated for obstruction of justice by robert mueller who he didn't succeed in firing. does robert mueller know about this incident when the president tried but didn't succeed in firing him? does robert mueller know about this episode? according to the times, yes. mr. mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and senior officials in his inquiry into whether the president obstructed justice. remarkab r

mueller. the special counsel overseeing the russia investigation. the president ultimately backed down, though, after the white house counsel threatened to resign rather than carry out the directive. this west wing confrontation marks the first time mr. trump is known to have fired -- excuse me, the first time mr. trump is known to have tried to fire the special counsel, which makes me think were there other times he tried and failed to fire the special counsel? this confrontation marks the first time he was known to have fired the special counsel. at this time you're asking yourself, okay, the president is being investigated for obstruction of justice by robert mueller, who he didn't succeed in firing. does robert mueller know about this incident when the president tried but didn't succeed in firing him? does robert mueller know about this episode? according to the "times," yes. mr. mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and senior official

the people for saving mueller are no longer for saving mueller. any clues as to why that's the case? >> i mean, i think at this point, one of the things that's sort of baffling, sort of take another step back and look at is the fact that donald trump should by now have learned the lesson that firing someone isn't going to end this investigation. it's not going to end the investigation. >> it could have opened up a new one. >> exactly. >> it could have been the firing of yates, firing of comey, the lackadaisical firing. the firings are all flash points where you bring everyone into the white house and interrogate them. >> exactly. all it has done so far is take it up a notch in terms of the importance and intensity. so, i think that at this point, i think one of the things that was very revealing about the "times" piece yesterday, it seems as though ty cobb has put a lid on donald trump's emotions about the investigation. this thing is wrapping up soon, chill out, we're going to get through this, right. that seems to have worked. donald trump has b

on whatever timeframe mule certifica mueller is working on. no one knows except mueller what the timeframe is. >>> let's talk about the president in davos. he rubbed shoulders with the world's economic elite. he opened the door to some version of the tpp. saying america is open for business. what are your thoughts on the trip? >> i'm glad that the president stood up and said that he was open to reengaging with tpp. i thought it was a strategic blunder to pull out of that agreement. basically that agreement was designed to help the united states in our partners in the pacific rim position ourselves against china. we want to set the rules, write the rules and set the standards of trade, rather than the other way around. we want to protect the american workers. i'm glad the president has come around on that a bit. on the rest of davos, i think the president went out there and made a chamber of commerce speech. he went up there and sold america, regulatory reform, tax reform. and america is open for business, i thought that was a good message. it

the possibility that mueller will be gone? >> yonk we know. i think we've seen a t pattern of president trump and members of the administration repeatedly attack the credibility of the investigation in an effort to i think distract from the fbi and special counsel from being able to do their work. we need to think about how this is playing globally. all these threads play into putin's hands. the intelligence community has agreed that the russian's goal is to undermine faith in our democracy. our legal system is a key pillar of that and almost every day now, we have stories about the administration trying to denigrate the fbi. >> that was one of the conclusions of the u.s. intelligence community and law enforcement community that the russian goal in interfering in the election. the first to embarrass the united states and to create division. >> the story they should be talking about is what do they do about the next election. whether they're guilty, whether they testified, what the president did wrong. can you tell me how many

what is mueller looking at? why is mueller focusing on certain issues rather than others? and in the process of that, we kick up different things. we're just trying to follow the facts and understand as much as we can about this presidency. >> michael schmidt, good work tonight. you know you're always welcome on this broadcast, michael schmidt, co-author of the "new york times" story. eli stokels, kimberly atkins, chief washington reporter for the boston herald, and gerald bash, also former counsel to house intel. kimberly, as both lawyer and journalist and a unique dual role in this conversation, how big is this? >> this is very big. i mean, this is an important piece in what we've been seeing over time which looks to be a concerted effort by this president to push back or stop efforts to investigate what is going on in the russia investigation. we saw first the pressure on james comey to get him to publicly say there was no investigation, then the firing of comey, then the pressure on other officials including members of congress, to message the frustration about this in

because he thought mueller would be fair. this puts the white house once again scrambling to control the narrative, and trump isn't making it easy for them. >> what does if say that the president was willing to fire mueller after all that came out from the firing of comey? >> it shows somebody who is impatient with the process, if he feels he's being held to a certain standard, he doesn't want to be put under scrutiny, he says i don't like this process, i want to change it, i want to do something different. he's always been an incredibly impatient man, whether on the campaign trail, whether running his companies, whether firing people on "the apprentice." it shows how when things don't go his way, he's very willing to question the entire underlying system and say, hey, let's change it, let's shake up the narrative and make this a better process for me. >> i'm curious, alexi, with regard to political fallout, does the mueller story this week, does that at all change the narrative for the president politically speaking? will re

he didn't fire mueller. and i find it very ironic this information is coming out while he's here in davos. while he had great fanfare. you and me i would love to get a look at steve bannon's phone record and see who he's talking to and how the information is out there. second thing is that the president talks to everybody and so this information apparently happened in june. why is it coming out right now like a big water balloon object president when he's having a fantastic trip here in davos meeting with world leaders and about to get a fantastic speech about global prosperity and global growth? i find this to be a nonsensical story. and another in the -- >> i appreciate you -- it matters too much. it can't be a red herring. a red herring is a distraction for what is otherwise important. the timing of -- >> we're distracting from the president's speech tomorrow. and all the great things he's doing here in terms of laying the ground work. distracting from the business leaders meetings he had today. the meeti

mueller. mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and former senior white house officials in his inquiry into whether the president obstructed justice. the washington post adding, quote, trump's ire at mueller rose to such a level that then white house strategist steve bannon and then chief of staff reince priebus grew incredibly concerned that he was going to fire mueller and sought to enlist others to intervene with the president, according to a trump advisor who requested anonymity to describe private conversations. both of the men were deeply worried about the possibility and discussed how to keep him from making such a move, this person said. the president woke up to the news in switzerland and responded with what has become a reflex for him. >> mr. president, why did you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks, fake news. typical new york times fake story. >> but no denials from his attorney ty cobb, from don mcgahn or anyone el

we know mueller. do we know anything more about the president speaking to mueller's team. >> we don't, in terms of how the internal negotiations are going between the president's legal team and robert mueller's team. what we have reported and do still believe is the case for fr our sources is that there is a real split among people who have influence with the president on whether or not this is a good idea. i've talked to several people who have told me that they have made it clear to him and those around him that it would be horrible for him to do -- to just sit down with robert muchlt eller in any way, shape or form for a whole host of reasons. one, because they think that it would be a perjury trap for him and also because the president and a whole other list of reasons. but there are those who think that he should try to cooperate. and one of those people who are suggesting that maybe it's a good idea, we're told, is the president himself, who thinks, you know what? i've done hundreds of depositio

he has no legal basis to fire mueller. there are specific regulations that govern mueller's conduct. the good cause that maggie reports on would not have cut it and rosen stesteen would have q. had the president not been sort of well-served by mcgann, he would be facing either respective indictment for obstruction of justice. a sitting president can be indicted or a referral for article of impeachment. i think this would have been a camel-breaking straw for even those republicans who are pretty much lined up in his favor at the moment. >> i just want to play, now that we have this new report from the "new york times," the president's friend, chris ruddy, the ceo of news max talking last june to pbs, the same month the "new york times" now reporting the president ordered mueller to be fired. let's play this. >> suggested, i think i heard you suggesting that there's a question about the purpose of his investigation. i want to ask you about that, because there are some republicans out there saying that robert mueller shouldn'

mueller is way ahead of us. he knows a heck of a lot more than we do, but i think there is a lot of road ahead of us. >> two terrific guests. thank you, gentlemen, for adding so much to our conversation, frank figliuzzi and chuck rosenberg, appreciate it very much. more to come when "the 11th hour" continues. in no hurry to make anything happen. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® works in just one week. with the fastest retinol formula available. it's clinically proven to work on fine lines and wrinkles. one week? that definitely works! rapid wrinkle repair®. and for dark spots, rapid tone repair. neutrogena®. see what's possible. hi, i'm the internet! you knoarmless bowling.lt? you got this, jimmy! you know what's easy? building your website with godaddy. pick a domain name. choose a design. you can build a website in under an hour. now that's a strike! get your domain today and get a free trial of gocentral. build a better website in under an hour. i love you. jimmy's gotten used to his whole yup, he's gone

president, why did you fire robert mueller? why would you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks, fake news. typical "new york times" fake story. >> the report has been confirmed by nbc news, "the washington post," cnn, "the wall street journal," even fox news. it does raise troubling questions. is it obstruction or at least part of a pattern of obstruction to do what he did and where are republicans? hasn't the president crossed a line here? >> will trump try to do it again. if he was willing to before, why not now when it appears the investigation is sniffing close e er and closer to trump. then there's the question of honesty. if the reporting it true by multiple news organizations, president trump wasn't telling the truth, was he, when he said this last august. >> mr. president you thought about or considered leading to the dismissal of the special counsel. is there anything bob mueller could do that would accepted you in that direction? >> i've been reading about it from you people. i'm not dissing anybody. i want them to get on with the task. >> michael

president, why did you fire robert mueller? why would you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks, fake news. typical "new york times" fake story. >> the report has been confirmed by nbc news, "the washington post," cnn, "the wall street journal," even fox news. it does raise troubling questions. is it obstruction or at least part of a pattern of obstruction to do what he did and where are republicans? hasn't the president crossed a line here? >> will trump try to do it again. if he was willing to before, why not now when it appears the investigation is sniffing close er and closer to trump. then there's the question of honesty. if the reporting it true by multiple news organizations, president trump wasn't telling the truth, was he, when he said this last august. >> mr. president you thought about or considered leading to the dismissal of the special counsel. is there anything bob mueller could do that would accepted you in that direction? >> i've been reading about it from you people. i'm not dissing anybody. i want them to get on with the task. >> michael sc

trump has faced many lawyers but none quite like mueller. chris hayes who has done a few russian interviews of his own, is here to talk about potential cross-examination and what's next in the probe. at social med. she buys stocks in companies that "stand for something." you like her. she's always up on the latest trends. she got in early on the whole goat yoga thing. and her sunsets are always #nofilter. you like her. but you'd like her better if you made more money than she does. don't get mad at @just_marea. get eátrade. it happens when reality exceeds expectations. sail with the #1 cruise line in alaska, princess cruises, come back new. (gasp) (singsong) budget meeting! sweet. if you compare last quarter to this quarter... various: mmm. it's no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream. with the creamy taste of philly, i no wondering, "what if?" uncertainties of hep c. i let go of all those feelings. because i am cured with harvoni. harvoni is a revolutionary treatment f

it will just be mueller's team and the president. who is going to stop donald trump from saying 16 times as he did in a recent interview, there was no collusion. trump can eat up a lot of time by simply talking about what he wants to talk about. and that's why i think the duration of this testimony is going to be extremely important. if it's just an hour, if it's just two hours. the president could just talk for that long and mueller could wind up with virtually nothing. so i think the amount of time is going to be a very, very important part of this negotiation. >> i want to quickly go back to our senior white house correspondent, pamela brown, who was in this extraordinary exchange with the president and other white house correspondents just moments ago. what are you learning, pamela? >> right, just more about what the president said regarding robert mueller, his willingness to sit down and do an interview with him and he actually said to the reporters, i'm look iing forward to doing it actually. that is a direct quote from him. sa

did the president say he wanted to fire robert mueller? >> well, i have no inside information regarding what he did or didn't say. that wasn't part of my portfolio while i was in the white house. >> you never heard him say that he wanted to fire robert mueller? >> no. and i couldn't talk about it even if i d. so let's move on from that. >> hang on. i just want to get to this quickly and then get to a bigger issue because i think it is important. any knowledge did you ever he ever hear that he threatened to quit to stop the president from firing robert mueller. >> i wouldn't be able to do it under my obligations anyway. >> have you testified to special counsel? we have heard eight lawyers, eight people have? >> again, i wouldn't be sitting here today if i had been interviewed. so the answer to that is no as well because of my ethical obligations having left the white house recently. >> good. now, that we have that behind us, what is your take on the reporting that cnn has confirmed that the president said he wanted to fire robert muler and

trump has made only one comment regarding the reports about mueller. >> did you fire mueller? >> fake news, guys. typical fake news. >> but it is not fake news. cnn has learned he ordered mueller firing last june. it didn't happen because don mcgahn refused to tell the department to do so because he disagreed with trump. two sources tell cnn that mueller wants to interview trump specifically focusing on the firing of james comey and michael flynn. is mueller now building an obstruction of justice case against the president? we know, according to "the washington post" that mueller is looking specifically at a quote pattern of behavior on trump's part. a pattern that began very early in trump's presidency. let's take a look. february 13, 2017, flynn resigns admitting that he lied about his conversations with the then russian ambassador kislyak. the very next day trump means with then fbi director james comey. comey takes notes of the meeting and writes that trump said, quote, i hope you can see your way to letting this go, to letting flynn go. comey does not let it go. may 9th,

mueller was appointed. we see why the president has been so frustrated with the investigation and his attorney general. who he pressured publicly to step down. and wouldn't have picked him -- >> the central role don mcgahn layed through the this sfwl restraining the president of the united states. what an extraordinary discussion we're having here. talking about the seen your leadership of a presidency. which is spending its type trying to restrain the basic instincts of the president of the united states day after day. trying to restrain involve breaking the law. that's what this investigation, that's what the last year has been about. she talked earlier about trump being trump. in this instance. part of what the whole mueller investigation is about is trump being trump. the way he conducts his business. the way that he conducted his campaign. the way he has responded to these investigations. we have never had anything quite like this. where the white house staff, those who are in daily kalkt with the pres

now close to mueller. there's a pattern of interference with the investigation, what he said to comey, what he said to coats, the national security adviser, what he says to sessions is a pattern of conduct. there's inconsistent versions of what's going on, inconsistent accounts. that connotes somebody trying to do something he shouldn't do. there's a pattern of conduct. but you know, it's interesting, mueller is quite right not wanting -- he wants to get to the bottom of this and not bringing charges until all the ducks are in a row. it is an enormous thing to make this accusation against a president and i think he wants to do it, he wants there to be, if there's anything with respect to the russian investigation, he wants those charges. if there's anything with respect to money laundering, he wants that. the best play here, the best charge here would be to obstruction of justice alongside other accusations. >> that is something a lot of people are talking about, what would happen if that was done in the a

robert mueller was not fired, obviously. so in and of itself the act isn't grounds for obstruction or anything else. but could the intent, how does the intent tell you about the president's mind-set and might that seep in other parts of the investigation? >> well, first of all, you don't have to succeed in obstructing justice to obstruct justice. that he didn't ultimately fire mueller doesn't mean anything. in and of itself, it is a conclusive piece of evidence. it is one more piece in the puzzle as we try to discern what the president's motives, intent was. that is actually quite important because he does have the legal authority to fire government officials. and in this case it would be indirect. you would have to pressure somebody at doj to do it. but he can't do it corruptly. you would have to look at intent to see if he was trying to prevent himself from being further investigated. he certainly told us that was his intent in firing mueller -- comey. so this fits with that. he said i haven't even given getting rid of mue

mueller was appointed as special counsel on may 17th, 2017, and in the sixth months that followed, mueller interviewed nine officials, including former white house chief of staff reince priebus and former white house press secretary sean spicer. in november, that's when mueller began closing in on the president's inner circle, interviewing senior policy adviser stephen miller and the president's son-in-law jared kushner. the biggest bombshell yet came on december 1st. that's when michael flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi and announced he was fully cooperating with the special counsel's probe. and just a few weeks later, mueller interviewed white house communications director hope hicks and white house counsel donn mcgahn. in january, we learned mueller issued a subpoena to the former white house chief strategist steve bannon. he's going to be testifying. 's going to be answering questions later this month, we're now told. and on january 17th, he sbh interviewed the attorney general of the united states, jeff sessions. as i said earlier, president trump could eventually be added to t

>> i have confidence in mueller. i have questions about others within the fbi and the doj, especially what's come out in the texts, especially what it's been based on. i think it's the responsibility -- we have an intel committee. that's raced a great deal of question. >> is there a red line the president could cross with you in his treatment of bob mueller? >> the president and his team have fully cooperated. you're making hypotheticals. right now -- >> it's not a hypothetical. we have records that he ordered to do it and don mcgann threatened to quit if asked to carry out the order. >> this is a place i have not been a part of. i have not heard that. the only thing i have seen is cooperation is where we intend to end up. >> would you open if there's bill that protects -- you know, there's a couple of bills in the senate, one would be having a three-judge panel review a decision if the president did fire mueller to see if it was done on fairgrounds. would you be open if that bill is attached to the budget bill, woul

mueller. what do you think about the possibility how would that work if you would to remove rosenstein? >> you want me to answer that question. >> please, thanks. >> i think that would have similar political ramifications. rob rosen sign is a career respected deputy attorney general. he's been a u.s. attorney in both republican and democratic administrations. to remove him in that scenario without any just cause i think would cause a lot of alarm and panic. i don't know that it would be any better than firing robert mueller because it would suggest you're trying to elevate someone who obviously might be more sympathetic to your views in overseeing the investigation. so i think that too would be a disaster for president trump. >> swen, talk about the mood in the white house with respect to this investigation because we know the president's obsessed with it. he watches a channel that talks about these sort of conspiracy theories. we know he's been railing against mueller and sessions publicly an

so there are sort of two big buckets mueller is looking at. one of them is obstruction, did the president try to obstruct the russia investigation. the other one is russian meddling in the election. in terms of the first bucket, comey is the central player in that. >> michael, did we lose you? >> i'm still here. can you hear me? >> let's talk about obstruction. today we have the news, first reported by axios, not confirmed by nbc news, but this idea that the white house, jeff sessions, are pressuring christopher wray, the now fbi director, to remove people inside the fbi. problems with some of that reporting, because andrew mccabe can't be fired. he is a career agent so he just can't be fired willy-nilly. there's got to be a cause there. but the "washington post" is confirming at least a portion of it saying that it does seem like this administration is trying to put pressure on the fbi director. we have seen it frankly publicly, michael, with the president's tweets saying andrew mccabe shouldn't be there. how much is that going to factor into

if he fired mueller without cause. i mean, mueller's doing a good job. i have confidence in him to get to the bottom of all things russia. and don mcgahn, in the story is true in "the new york times" did the right thing. good news is the president listened. i know this, mueller should look at it. i have complete confidence in mr. mueller. when he found two fbi agents with a bias against president trump, he fired them. all this stuff about the fbi and doj having a bias against trump and for clinton needs to be looked at. i have never believed it affected mr. mueller. i'll do whatever it takes to make sure mr. mueller can do his job. we're a rule of law nation before president trump. we're going to be a rule of law nation after president trump. i haven't yet seen any evidence of collusion between mr. trump and the russians. the investigation needs to go forward without interference. and i believe it will. >> you believe the stories about mcgahn? about president trump? >> i don't know. i believe it's something that mueller should look at. we're not just goi

he had to get rid of mueller. >> when "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. as the president's lawyers continue to negotiate the terms of his looming interview with the special counsel, the president's friends and aides are panicking and the republican counteroffensive against the justice department is shifting into overdrive. tonight the white house is denying it had anything to do with the abrupt departure of a top fbi official whom the president has been openly attacking for months. nbc news broke the story the deputy fbi director andrew mccabe left the bureau today effective immediately months before his expected retirement. one source said mccabe was exercising his retirement eligibility, characterized his decision as stepping aside. but according to other outlets, the decision may not have been voluntary. cbs news reporting that mccabe was forced to step down. fox news reporting that he was removed from the fbi. now the president's attacks on mccabe go back to 2016 after

think about what mueller did. when i turned out the political opinions of these with particular political agents were expose in the texts, again, they're humans. they have opinions. what did mueller do? he immediately took they will off the investigation. which is probably exactly the right thing to do. but wolf, this is all part. and the famous house memo is just the latest and most dangerous installment of trying to save this president's bacon by damaging and throwing mouth a storied institutions. >> they are probe yg five months of text messages between those twoe individuals apparently have gone missing. do you have confidence the fbi ends up being fully transparent? >> i don't know. i have no way of knowing. we've seen a lot of these text messages. the fbi has produced a lot of text messages would indicate they're not trying to hide anything. it is hard to imagine. these people had opinions. they expressed them to each other. there's no scandal there. of course the right wing and republicans will do their bes

why doesn't the president just fire mueller. here is what sarah sanders said. >> i think we all know what everybody in this room would do if the president did that. i don't think that's helpful to the process. >> oh, my, bianna, you're a journalist. she's saying part of the reason is because of how you guys, the press, would respond. >> we've been talking about this and speculating for months now as to whether he would or wouldn't fire mueller. i think a lot of people were surprised by hearing that mueller interviewed sessions and will be potentially interviewing the president in the next few weeks, how far along mueller has gone in this investigation and how many people he has actually interviewed, he and his prosecutors, over the past few months which maybe gives you a sense that mueller possibly thinks he's on borrowed time and wants to conclud ts sooner rather than later. >> the way, she may not be wrong. if the president did do it, there would be a reaction, but that's not the reason. >> she's certainly right there would be

mueller left the club over that. the second reason was jared kushner was using lawyers at a washington law firm where bob mueller was a partner. the third reason, the potential conflict the president used as rationale for wanting to fire mueller was mueller had been interviewed to be the fbi director under trump the day before he was named special counsel. so those were the reasons that the president had told don mcgann he wanted him to direct the justice department to fire mueller. mcgann disagreed with that and threatened to resigned. our crack research team has gone back and said since august, the president, the white house and aides have denied eight times that the president ever considered or contemplating firing mcgann. it's very interesting today to see trump calling this fake news. we'll see what the white house has to say later today. >> the president himself has said that on camera. before you go, i thought it was fascinating or very telling what ty cobb said last night and gave us in response to all this.

president, did you seek to fire robert mueller. >> fake news, folks. >> the plot to fire mueller. >> typical "new york times" fake stories. >> tonight new concerns the threat to the special counsel hasn't passed. and yet, one republican is backing off his plan to protect robert mueller and what all this means for the russia investigation. >> i haven't given it any thought. >> then. >> yeah, maybe donald trump wanted to fire the special counsel for conflict. does he not have the right to raise those questions. >> can trump tv sustain the president through his latest crisis. >> the president says it's fake news. what do you think? do you even care? >> the finance chief for the republican party faces new allegations of sexual

to fire mueller. in fact mueller may already have, just like ralph nader there, a legal challenge written to his own potential future firing, after all, this is news tonight, but the times reports mueller himself learned about it long ago during his interviews and if don mcgahn didn't personaler himself, he presumably would have told mueller about it in his own november interview. and the battle took a lot more turns, another prosecutor replaced cox and because that prosecutor had a different law that he was operated on than what mueller is operating on today. it is possible that the court could interpret it this way on the facts and on the president. just like nixon era, the -- mueller can only be removed by the personal action of the attorney general, which is now rod rosenstein, since sessions is recused and he can only fire him because of misconduct, dereliction of duty or for cause which has to be in writing. that part is important too, because if righit's in writing, court is more likely to rein

we know that mueller knows this. mueller has known this for some time because of interviews with white house staffers. how does that figure into his thinking and to your point now. we saw example of this what you're talking about yesterday. the president wasn't when asked about what he asked andy mccabe, the acting fbi director at the time in the oval office about whom he voted for in the election which is inappropriate. you're not supposed to talk to people about politics. that's why bob mueller didn't talk to the attorneys that he hired about whom they supported politically. you're not supposed to. however, the president said when asked. i don't think i asked him that. i don't remember. if i did it's not really that important. you can say that to the media. you can say that and it's up to us to be able to check it. the white house has not backed off the suggestion he said that to andy mccabe. mccabe hasn't said it didn't happen. if you say that in front of these investigators, you expose yourself to questions that

>> n -- mueller? >> these sources went all the way to switzerland today from the "new york times," to t"the washington post" to fox news. but more important, perhaps, than this cascading waterfall of lies is the fact that this is just the latest evidence of p m president trump's desire and actions to end the russian probes. last year president trump kicked off his reliationship with his own fbi director by asking james comey for his loyalty, a request made just days after being interviewed and michael flynn lied to them about his contacts with russia. that lie was something mcgahn told president trump about that month. and president trump later tested that loyalty request by urging comey to drop the fbi appropriation into flynn, whom he had just fired and ultimately the president, as we know, fired comey. we also know the president leaned on his attorney general, jeff sessions, to not recuse himself from supervising the russia probe. then after the recusal contemplated firing sessions. the president h

. >> are you going to talk to mueller? >> i'm look forward to it, actually. there's been no collusion, whatsoever. there's no obstruction whatsoever. and i'm looking forward to it. i do worry when i look at all of the things that you people don't report about it, with what's happening, if you take a look at, you know, the five months worth of missing texts, that's a lot of missing texts. and as i said yesterday, that's prime time. so you just got to look at that and say what's going on? you do look at certain texts where they talk about insurance policies or insurance, where they say the kinds of things they're saying, you got to be concerned. but i would love to do that, as soon as possible. good luck, everybody. so here's the story. >> do you have a date set? >> i don't know, i guess they're talking about two or three weeks, but i would love to do it. like i say, subject to my lawyers and all of that, but i would love to. >> again, don't under estimate donald trump. you have been in those things, we call them scrums some

if he wanted to fire mueller, he would have sacked mcgahn and fired mueller. i'm curious to know what else happened around this situation that the president didn't go through with it and ultimately -- >> he wanted to give an order of ban of immigrants and sally yates refused. that doesn't mean just because he didn't -- it didn't happen that he didn't try to do it. his intent was to do it. >> i'm not disputing the reporting but i would also say he has gone through with other things. he obviously fired comey. there are moments when he did things and moments he didn't do things. i think the interplay there is important context for this conversation tonight. >> on comey, he had someone on the justice department as a fig leaf and excuse to do it, the rosenstein memo. he was probably hoping to get the same thing here where mcgan could go through it and say my white house counsel did it and said it was fine. >> go ahead, i know you want to weigh in. >> first of all, the fact that the white house is lying about something that happened, that's not news, but this is ano

to talk to mueller? >> i'm looking forward to it, actually. >> you want to. >> just so you understand, there's been no collusion whatsoever. there's no obstruction whatsoever. >> you have a date set, mr. president? >> i don't know. no. i guess you're talking about two, three weeks. i would love to do it. >> in person? >> i have to say, subject to my lawyers and all that but i'd love to do it. >> would you do it under oath, mr. president? >> like hillary -- who said that? >> would you do it under oath? >> you did say it. you say a lot. did hillary do it under oath? i think you have an idea. wait, do you not have an idea? you dou-u really don't have ani? i'll give you an idea -- >> wyou would? >> she didn't do it under oath. if you didn't know about hillary, you're not much of a reporter. >> are you going -- >> say it? >> you would do it under oath? >> i would do it under oath. >> you think robert mueller will be fair to you in this larger investigation? >> we're going to find out. we're going to find out.

president why did you fire robert mueller? why did you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks. "new york times" fake story. >> in the nixon era that's what they called a nondenial denial. joining us with his first reaction to the public reaction is the author of the best selling book in the world right now, michael wolff, the author of the "new york times" best-seller "fire and fury," inside the trump white house. thank you for coming back. >> thank you for having me. >> your book is filled with versions of the president complaining about the special prosecutor, making references to wanting to fire the special prosecutor. the special prosecutor has talked to reince priebus, the special prosecutor is going to talk to steve bannon, who you spent a lot of time talking to. the special prosecutor has been talking to many of your sources in this book. has the special prosecutor reached out to you to talk to you about either the firing of the special prosecutor or any other elements of this story? >> he has not. >> and if the special prosecutor does want to interv

president, why did you fire robert mueller? why did you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks, fake news. typical "new york times" fake story. >> fake news, says the president. two sources told the "times" of what trump saw as three conflicts. first, a dispute years ago over fees at trump national golf club in sterling, virginia, that prompted mueller, the fbi director at the time, to resign his membership there. the president also said mueller could not be impartial because he had most recently worked for the law firm that previously represented the president's son-in-law jared kushner. finally, trump said mueller had been interviewed to return as the fbi director the day before he was appointed special counsel in may. joe, that's just the tip of the iceberg in this "new york times" piece that, again, has been confirmed by nbc news. we talked about it last hour. the idea that president trump might fire mueller was viewed by a lot of people as wild. people would come on our show and say it would set off a constitutional crisis, there's no way he could cross

mueller made also clear it is seeking a sit down. pamela brown and gloria borger join us now. >> sources tell my colleague and i that special counsel robert mueller has made it clear that he wants to do a sit-down interview with the president. you heard the president say, he would be more than happy to sit down with robert mueller, but the lawyers for the president are in ongoing negotiations. and sources tell us that an in-person interview would be a last resort. we are told robert mueller has made clear any of the topics he would like to discuss. under the umbrella of the firing of james comey. and national security adviser michael flynn. they also want to learn about what they told james comey when he allegedly asked them -- and also another topic we are told by sources that robert mueller is interested in is when the president reached out to the intelligence chiefs of various agencies asking them reportedly to intervene. we reported that mueller has interviewed three of the top intelligence officials so far. these are things that

mueller first. tom, six months ago when the president was supposedly thinking about firing mueller, here was the reaction from some republican senators. >> any effort to go after mueller could be the beginning of the end of the trump presidency. >> i think it would be as explosive as anything i can think single act that the president might take. >> we would certainly advise that step not to be taken. i think this is a man who many believe on both sides of the aisle has tremendous integrity and will do his work in a very diligent way. >> we have not had the same sort of reaction from republican side of the aisle. it's been much more muted saying, well, look, it didn't happen and we'll worry about it if it does. you heard leader mccarthy there claiming he has confidence in mueller but -- >> well, i think two things. one was, i was here for the saturday night massacre and the nixon white house thought that was going to unleash their ability to deal with what was going on and it was another nail in the

mueller first. tom, six months ago when the president was supposedly thinking about firing mueller, here was the reaction from some republican senators. >> any effort to go after mueller could be the beginning of the end of the trump presidency. >> i think it would be as explosive as anything i can think single act that the president might take. >> we would certainly advise that step not to be taken. i think this is a man who many believe on both sides of the aisle has tremendous integrity and will do his work in a very diligent way. >> we have not had the same sort of reaction from republican side of the aisle. it's been much morewell m look, happen and we'll worry about it if it does. you heard leader mccarthy there claiming he has confidence in mueller but -- >> well, i think two things. one was, i was here for the saturday night massacre and the nixon white house thought that was going to unleash their ability to deal with what was going on and it was another nail in the coffin. there ought to b

he was saying fire mueller the time. i want to fire mueller all the time. michael wolff said it was like wallpaper so people did not take it seriously and it might, in the president's mind, have never been a specific order. and since it wasn't carried out he may not believe he issued the order. >> apparently don mcgahn took it seriously and was willing to resign rather than carry it out. i wouldn't describe this as wallpaper based on what the "new york times" the "the washington post" and others have reported. what leaps out at me about this disclosure, this new report, is how much in common it has with the comey situation. with the firing of comey what the president had at his disposal were memos from rod rosenstein and from jeff sessions that provided a pretext, another explanation to give to the public for why comey was being fired. that is, he treated hillary clinton unfairly. now that is obviously not very plausible and the one who made it clear that was not the real motivation was the president himself. but similarly here with the attempt to fire bob

but now that mueller, state versus federal, but mueller is targeting trump. law enforcement, you can't question them. they can't do any wrong. if they should never be fired, they shouldn't even be question questions! one would think that the media, some in the media would have a little bit of curiosity about, i don't know, the conflicts of interest in the special counsel's office. if they distrust law enforcement and investigators on the state level so often, why do the feds get a pass? well, there is without a doubt a deep-seated animus, and that is putting it mildly, toward the president by key members of the mueller investigative team. and rather than confront the growing evidence, the left, they start demonizing members of congress. and anyone, frankly anyone, who dares to question the methods and the motives of the obama justice department and now the mueller gang. the black cloud that hangs over this russian investigation, let me tell you this, it wasn't created by fox news. it certainly wasn't created by talk radio. none of us hired jeannie reed, who p

trump can fire mueller. he's allowed to fire mueller if he thinks he's going too far. the investigation will continue. best thing, welcome questioning, try to have it done as soon as possible so you get the probe wrapped up. president trump can return to fighting about infrastructure and immigration reform. >> john you're an interesting fella. i got just a couple more questions. i have to. what terms should the president and his attorneys agree to in terms of answering the questions by mueller? >> mueller is a very experienced prosecutor. he was head of the fbi himself. he was attorney out here in san francisco. he is not going to want to let anything be written down first. prosecutor wants to have the questions oral. he want to see where they go. mueller is going to resist letting the president has lawyers to put anything in writing. president's lawyer doing great job. they're getting investigation done fast. >> what should they push for? >> i think what they should try to do is try to get everything down in writing that might cause perjury. that's what they're worrie

face-to-face if mueller wants to go there? >> i think it will either be in person or he'll find himself being questioned in a grand jury. i think that mueller will want to have an interview with him face-to-face. that's the kind of thing prosecutors live for, that is to get the adversary or the suspect or target on the other side of the table and have a shot at him to see where they're at. i think trump is going to find himself there. let me say this. rod rosenstein is a good guy. i served with him in committees, on the u.s. attorney community. i think if trump is waiting on him to do his bidding, he's w t waitishiwai waiting on the wrong man because he's got too much credibility to take an action. >> thank you all. >>> coming up, the man who reportedly told the president, don't fire robert mueller, but who is white house counsel don mcgahn. and why is he at the center of so many controversies? >> and later, what we're learning about how first lady melania trump spent her week amid salacious headlines about her husband and a p

mueller did have a conflict of interest. i was very critical of mueller's appointment. he's a witness to his own investigation. because you're not supposed to be a witness in an investigation that you're conducting. he interviewed for that job, he met with the president soon after the termination of comey, you can throw a stick and hit 100 lawyers in d.c. maybe it was a mistake, but it doesn't mean that he should be fired and it also doesn't mean the president should be given credit for not firing him. you can't complain that there was a fire when somebody else blew out the match. the president was about to do a remarkably self defeating act and one that i feel would be grossly inappropriate. but i don't think it makes a case for obstruction. people constantly look at things and say there's the piece we're looking at. but he has defenses. >> i think jonathan sort of made my point, which is you look at so many different acts that the president has done, whether it's telling james comey to be loyal, whether it's telling him to go easy on his national security adviser, whe