rudy giuliani, the former u.s. attorney, has just been reduced to lying on national television to try to avoid the obvious conclusion that that meeting did, in fact, constitute a conspiracy against the united states and to violate the campaign finance laws. >> okay. you've answered every question i would have had on that. i want to get to the "new york times" report about white house counsel don mcgahn doing those 30 hours of volunteer interviews with the white house counsel in october of last year. it's being called extraordinary. what is your take on it? >> i'm not sure it's extraordinary. i don't think it's surprising that mueller would want to speak to mcgahn and would want to learn about those conversations that took place before the president had the various conversations in which he tried to interfere with the investigation when it was being handled by jim comey, and various other key moments that mcgahn has been there for. but i have to say this quest for the media to find, could this be the key thing that

giuliani. this is all mr. giuliani all the time. when mr. giuliani says, i'm going to set the terms of the interview between mr. mueller and president trump so he is not permitted to ask him questions about what the president said to james comey about laying off mike flynn, basically, mr. giuliani is saying that bob mueller shouldn't be allowed to ask the president anything incriminating or relevant to the investigation. that's pure nonsense. as a 30-year federal prosecutor, we don't negotiate interviews with targets, which the president may have ripened into. this is nonsense. >> you are talking about the president of the united states. it's something different. this is an investigation -- we are saying like no other. when it comes to the timing, does it -- it's something of a negotiation though. if they're going to get it done -- giuliani kind of confusing a little bit on that front as well. he said that if they don't sit down by september, trump isn't going to sit down at all. if it isn't done by september, the investigation should be ter

howard, what do you make of rudy giuliani strategy here? let's begin with fact that he says he won't be rushed into consideration about a potential interview with the special counsel. how long has that been around? >> well, the situation is this, donald trump has a terrible problem with lying. i can understand why rudy giuliani said truth isn't truth because in the white house truth isn't truth. there is no truth. it's all conjecture and bs. that's the first problem. the second problem rudy mentioned a perjury mentioned a perjury trap. perjury happens when you perjure yourself. so they're worried that trump will say something to mueller that will perjure himself. for example, the fact that the russian appointment, rudy tried to make out that was some russian they didn't know. in the e-mail sent by donald jr. -- i mean, sent to donald jr., it was really clear that the russians were representing the russian government. so there is an objective truth. mueller will have it in writing, and the perjury trap is if trump perjures himself, which he

well, giuliani is right about that. but it is an impeachable offense to use the office of the president to abuse the powers of the presidency and lie to the american people. >> i'm not going to monopolize your time. i'm not going to hold you too much longer. but again, you say michael cohen has information that does what as it relates to conspiracy and collusion? >> i think it would be of interest to mr. mueller and i don't want to go any further than that. >> okay. >> mr. mueller, in a book about to come out in paper back version i wrote, i liken mr. mueller to a silent deadly submarine under the surface leak proof, with the fuel energized by one thing, facts, facts, something that rudy giuliani doesn't think exists and that donald trump literally doesn't care when he ignores. and we'll see what mr. mueller comes up with, but i do believe that michael cohen will tell the truth to rudy giuliani and will tell the truth about donald trump. >> appreciate your time. lanny davis. thank you very much. >>> when we come back, s

as for giuliani, it's not just giuliani. all the people trotted out by the white house, they need to do their homework. even if he wanted to do propaganda, lie outright to the american people, you have to be on the same sheet of music, you have to get your lies straight. it's not a question of not getting the facts straight, they can't get the lies straight. it just makes it worse and worse for the president. >> do you think we're at an inflection point? we have the manafort verdict coming. possible charges against michael cohen. whatever mueller is going to decide. or frankly, i mean, i feel like i've asked that question a million times over this presidency. >> i think that's right, every day's an inflection point of some sort for this presidency. as i've always maintained, i have great faith in robert mueller, we don't know what he has up his sleeve. when i look at it, the context of the don mcgahn testimony everyone's making comparisons to watergate, i think that's wrong. if you read the externals of what mueller's doing,

. >> so do you know what giuliani has been saying? he's a liar, this is nothing more than a series of lies, he's a liar, liar, liar, liar. what do you say to that? >> the man who said truth is not truth. the man who takes away any dispute of fact that donald trump committed a crime when he directed my client, michael cohen to pay the money to miss daniels. it was rudy giuliani who broke the attorney/client privilege, contradicted president trump's lie on air force one who said, mr. trump reimbursed michael cohen for the advance money paid to miss daniels to keep her quiet. that is rudy giuliani saying that donald trump knew, directed and paid michael cohen. >> there is no allegation of any wrongdoing against the president in the government charges against mr. cohen. this is giuliani speaking here. it is clear that as the prosecutor noted, mr. cohen's actions reflect a pattern of lies and dishonesty over a significant period of time. >> let me repeat. i am talking about a fact not in dispute. mr. trump's attorney submitted a letter pub

as for giuliani, it's not just giuliani. they need to do their homework. even if he wanted to do propaganda, lie outright to the american people, have you to be on the same sheet of music, you have to get your lies straight. it's not a question of not getting the facts straight, they can't get the lies straight. >> do you think we're at an infliction point. we have the manafort verdict coming 37 whatever mueller is going to decide. or frankly, i mean, i feel like i've asked that question a million times over this presidency. >> i think that's right, every day's an inflexion point of some sort for this presidency. as i've always maintained, i have great faith in robert mueller, we don't know what he has up his sleeve. when i look at it, the context of the don mcgann testimony everyone's making comparisons to watergate, i think that's wrong. if you read the externals of what mueller's doing, it looks more like a classic justice department investigation of a mob boss, you can't get the mob boss, because he didn't pull the trigger, so you go after the money, y

bob mueller knows way more than the press knows and more than giuliani knows and giuliani is frightened by that. trump never gave any guidance around the flynn issue, we know from reporting this week in the new york review of books that there was a white house memorandum in which both reince priebus and don mcgahn told the president the fbi was interested in flynn before trump talked to comey. >> tim o'brian and david corn, thank you for joining us. >> sure thing. >> coming up, congressman eric will join us. he crossed what may be a line for him today when he tweeted to the president about robert mueller, you fire mueller, we fire you. and the other potential crime in the trump tweets today that no one has been talking about. jill saw it. she will explain it next. two words to contemplate during the break, jury tampering. i've been making blades here at gillette for 20 years. i bet i'm the first blade maker you've ever met. there's a lot of innovation that goes into making our thinnest longest lasting blades on the market. precision machinery and high-quality materials from around the w

we have seen and heard various things from rudy giuliani. he has done a media blitz over the past 24 hours. sometimes he has said this is going to be probably our final offer. other times he said differently. to me he seemed to suggest that he hopes that they are getting close but admitted they have no idea. they have no idea how robert mueller is going to react. the suspicion and hope inside the president's legal team is that a subpoena is not something that robert mueller will do because it will make a court battle last for months and months. >> we don't know what is in it. we suspect based on things that giuliani and other members of the president's legal team and the president has said that there is going to be not much on the table from the president's point of view that has to deal with possible obstruction of justice and it is hard to imagine that robert mueller will be okay with that. >> is it appropriate for the attorney for the president of the united states to be making this kind of political calculation suggesting if there is no

you were eight hours of giuliani saying it out load, but what is the strategy? >> i think it what's we talked about in terms of the legal component which is they wanted to have laid out the case by which they will have been reasonable. i think if a subpoena is issues -- look, they here in a situation they don't want to be in so i don't think it's a game, i think they are trying to get this dealt with as quickly as possible with as little damage to the president as possible and they have a strategy to do that. they believe -- some of them -- a that if there is a subpoena that is filed that it will be base riling for the president, incentive for turnout, a reason that republican voters who have said -- my colleague and yours, alex burns from the "new york times" covered the ohio special election and voters said to him we have to protect the president. those who were voting republican on tuesday so i think they're hoping they can boost turnout. the problem is there's a negative polarization effect where it could have an equally base-riling impact on already excited

and giuliani seeks to put them off the table. i do think if it drags on. the probe hangs over him and it obviously creates a kind of cloud. on the other hand if the report comes out and it's damning, then that will be the kind of record that is taken in to the midterms. it could be that he'll already have begun to pivot, i think time probably favors mueller over trump at this point. >> i think the strategy, though, ryan is that giuliani thinks it's going to energize the gop voters, people are getting tired of it, or it will betray trump as a put upon figure that should -- everyone is out to get him. is he right. >> they're turning mueller into this person who's unfairly out to target trump. the whole witch hunt rhetoric and all that. and i don't know if he's right about that, it probably depends on the race and the demographics of the district you're talking about, some republicans don't want to talk about this issue at all, others have leaned into it more and talked about it, if you look at that ohio race last night, the special election, neither candidat

>>> and giuliani

rudy giuliani is very experienced at these things. >> will ask rudy giuliani about negotiations the way they are covering the investigation in the media and along with his role. and why he's fighting these battles on the air in the court of public opinion. sean spicer, former trump spokesman takes on omarosa per the fired white house aide for her book trashing the president. should the media be trumpeting her disputed allegations? the high-tech war over free speech for apple, facebook, youtube and spotify. dan alex jones but twitter refuses to follow suit. >> it is easy to dismiss concerns it all seems coordinated the shutdown jones p because he is a media poster child for conspiracy theories. but this isn't about alex jones. this is about freedom. >> alex jones and rosie o'donnell and all of these other people believe that building seven had imploded. and that it was, the united states government had killed americans on 9/11. why anyone would listen to them, at all and alex jones -- my god! >> is big tech cracking down allies and conspiracy theories? i am howard kurtz and this is #medi

bob mueller knows way more than the press knows and more than giuliani knows and giuliani is frightened by that. trump never gave any guidance around the flynn issue, we know from reporting this week in the new york review of books that there was a white house memorandum in which both reince priebus and don mcgahn told the president the fbi was interested in flynn before trump talked to comey. >> tim o'brian and david corn, thank you for joining us. >> sure thing. >> coming up, congressman eric will join us. he crossed what may be a line for him today when he tweeted to the president about robert mueller, you fire mueller, we fire you. and the other potential crime in the trump tweets today that no one has been talking about. jill saw it. she will explain it next. two words to contemplate during the break, jury tampering. happy anniversary dinner, darlin'. can this much love be cleaned by a little bit of dawn ultra? oh yeah one bottle has the grease cleaning power of three bottles of this other liquid. a drop of dawn and grease is gone. it's a high-tech revolution in sleep. the new slee

versus rudy juliaewe giuliani. he says president trump never discussed james joemy. on another note, or not, remember when presidnt trump said he would only surround himself with the best people? amarosa is promoting her new tell all memoir with explosive claims and ep she says she hand recording of the moment she was fired. >> the president was tweeting all kinds of racism and acts of violence. the controversy was quickly ignited last year after the deadly charlottesville. >>> and the stole nl plane in seattle. we begin our coverage this morning with flores sanchez this morning. >> the president's security says he was is sorry for creating confusion in his previous comments. meanwhile they're speaking about a secret recording. >> rudy julian -- giuliani saying trump never told comey to go easy on flynn. >> if he goes in and testifies that they could say it is perjury. >> a month ago giuliani said the exact opposite. >> comey always insisted that trump asked him to take it easy on flynn. he later backtracks saying

they're just not knowing what's going on with what rudy giuliani is doing. >> she's saying rudy giuliani is saying he's worried the president is going to make inconsistent statements. that's exactly what rudy giuliani is doing. he's changing his story about trump tower. he's changing his story about whether there was collusion. even if there is, it's not incapsulated in the federal code, which is technically incorrect. a lot of misdirection, a lot of unforced errors here. >> giuliani goes on television and doesn't even know a lot of the facts involving that trump tower meeting in june of 2016 when the russians were pitching an idea to help the president get dirt on hillary clinton, and they made it clear in the e-mail exchange, the text messages they were sending with donald trump jr. this was coming from the russian government. >> yeah, i mean, rudy giuliani is shooting from the hip like his client. i don't think he's actually functioning as an attorney, as was mentioned in the traditional sense. mcgahn is at least trying to adhere to his ethical obligations. i think this misinformation

giuliani did not go that far in his appearances. don mcgahn ignored questions about this weekend's reports. >> why did you wait so long to speak to special counsel? >> did you confide because you thought the president would deter you? >> do you regret that decision? >> and like clock work, when the news media reveals details of the mueller investigation that disturb the president, the president's tweeting becomes even more hysterical. this morning the president tweeted these lies about special prosecutor robert mueller and his staff spent over 30 hours with the white house counsel, misspelled by the president, only with my approval for purposes of transparency. anybody needing that much time when they know there is no russian collusion is just someone looking for trouble. they are enjoying ruining people's lives and refuse to look at the real corruption on the democrat's side, the lies, the firings, the e-mails and so much more. mueller is looking to impact the election. they are a national disgrace. >> joining us now intelligence a

giuliani seems to speak off the cuff a lot. it can hurt the client quite a bit because all of us are looking for clues as to what actually the president said and did and taking his word seriously. i don't understand the legal strategy here at all. >> i want to get giuliani's words correct before you respond. listen one more time to what he said just last month. >> how is he a good witness for the president if he is saying that the president was directing him in his words to let the michael flynn investigation go? >> he didn't direct him to do that. what he said -- >> he clearly says trump asks comey to give flynn a break. when that comment made headlines giuliani didn't issue any kind of corrections or clarifications. >> look, giuliani does not speak precisely sometimes. that's what happens from time to time. we have seen that throughout this process. in legal terms lawyers use the term arguendo for arguments sake meaning we are going to assume that what the other side is arguing is correct or the facts that they are putting fo

rudy giuliani was asked about this plea deal today. he took a pretty dim view of it saying, they're really nothing to see here. >> it turned out to be this irrelevant indictment where i think mueller has turned into a private prosecutor. what does this have to do with president trump? not a single thing. it has nothing to do with collusion. some guy who donated to the inauguration? my goodness, there are about 500,000 people who donated to -- every time they got a speeding ticket, the special prosecutor is going to do it. >> reporter: rudy giuliani says this has nothing to do with donald trump. it was just money that went into the inaugural questicommittee. the reality is we've long heard mueller was investigating whether there was any foreign money that flowed into donald trump's campaign or his inauguration. we now have this person who admitted he helped put money into the inaugural committee and we don't know if more is coming down to the line. >> and it was a pro-russian ukrainian oligarch. thank you very much, sara. >>> as the pre

giuliani is purposely conflating two things. the justice department informal guidelines, i believe, not law, you shouldn't bring an indictment in a politically sensitive case 60 days before the election. not that the investigation shouldn't continue. >> says you should stay quiet. >> which mueller is capable of doing. but that is ominous. and what trump said at the end of the tweet you showed on the screen, stay tuned. i do wonder if labor day they say, look, he hasn't resolved this yet, this is an outrage, you shouldn't have these things going on in the election season and he starts firing rosenstein and mueller. >> i raised that possibility here last week that i think he's not ruled that out by any means, trump hasn't. he's looking for the timing, not the possibility. and by the way, the other thing they can do, the prosecutor can do is go silent between september and november, which i think is what's likely to happen. >> kimberly, i think a big factor here in whether the president acts, manafort is guilty or innocent. >> i th

giuliani did not go that far in his appearances. don mcgahn ignored questions about this weekend's reports. >> why did you wait so long to speak to special counsel? >> did you confide because you thought the president would deter you? >> do you regret that decision? >> and like clock work, when the news media reveals details of the mueller investigation that disturb the president, the president's tweeting becomes even more hysterical. this morning the president tweeted these lies about special prosecute eoe eor robert muelle his staff spent over 30 hours with the white house counsel, misspelled by the president, only with my approval for purposes of transparency. anybody needing that much time when they know there is no russian collusion is just someone looking for trouble. they are enjoying ruining people's lives and refuse to look at the real corruption on the democrat's side, the lies, the firings, the e-mails and so much more. mueller is looking to impact the election. they are a national disgrace. >> joining us now intelligence

you heard today rudy giuliani giving two different answers. he tells fox that it would be outrageous if mueller doesn't wrap up by september. telling cnn that it goes to the election because a good way to energize the base. he hopes the investigation will continue. all over the map on this. and as with many things with trump, we try to discern strategy when sometimes often feels like, it is impulse of the moment. >> carolyn how do you read what giuliani is doing here. he doesn't think this is going to be an interview with mueller, so just putting a show on or is this some negotiating leverage play on his part. >> i don't buy it. rudy giuliani is the former united states attorney for the southern district of new york. he knows how these things work. he doesn't get to dictate the terms. this is ridiculous. theatrics, they are drawing it out. i don't see how they could be serious. >> what is the level of negotiation generally in an investigation. >> literally zero and what is interesting is that we are hearing only one side of an negotiation. he

well i think rudy giuliani is doing exactly what they would like rudy giuliani to do and i think he's tried it out there to to float some test theories and to talk to the american people about what's going on with the special counsel's office so i think rudy giuliani as doing exactly what he's being paid to do you know bill just said there that donald trump is his own communications director i think to some extent that is true and i think rudy giuliani on some days this is press secretary as odd as that may sound but i think rudy is doing exactly what president trump likes for him to do which is go out and talk to the american people about some of these other theories and i think they test those i do think their message test those and go back and work on their communication strategies. you know you know i could always in on the giuliani a moderate republican one time. he's got a different choir. if i were donald trump i get my money back the group is helping him at all you know donald trump and i think successfully this sold the story that he didn't know anything about money paid to s

this is giuliani being giuliani, trying to create spin and leverage of the type that neither he nor the president really has in this equation. this is going to proceed on the special counsel's time and in the way the special counsel thinks is appropriate. that's just the way it is going to work. >> we also talked about the president said that the special counsel investigation that we're talking about plays into russia's hand, adding, if, in fact, it was russia. here's hogan gidley, one of the president's spokesperson on fox business, trying to defend the comment. >> the president called out vladimir putin. one of the first questions he asked was russian meddling. putin said it was one of the first questions he got from trump. he wants it to stop. he finds it unacceptable. >> greg, do you find it a credible response? >> no. look, it looks increasingly, and it has for some time, like president trump is simply being played by president putin. either whittingly or unwittingl. that's really what it -- that's what appears to be the case here. >> there was another headline we want to hit on, t

let's read from headlines we heard from rudy giuliani now. talking about a lot coming from the tweet the president sent out earlier this morning essentially saying his own attorney general should end this, in his words, witch hunt, this entire investigation where mueller was appointed not, by the way, by the ag but rod rosenstein, deputy attorney general. saying the mueller team, they don't have anything. saying this whole investigation needs to end, we heard from sarah sanders in the briefing. reiterating about what the president said in a tweet, it wasn't a directive, it was an opinion. no, they don't want to fire rod rosenstein. so let's go to harry litman, former u.s. attorney who is back with us. i've got to tell you, the point in the end, harry, where you heard rudy giuliani say he did not collude. on the other hand conclusion isn't a crime. i'm getting lost or confused in all the spin. >> yeah, i think that is the country. they backed away from no conclusion, to, well, maybe conclusion isn't a crime. i think here it's a misnomer. they

giuliani himself is not the most reliable narrater. he gives interviews and the media loves him correctly so because you get a window into what he's thinking and the president is thinking. he'll say one thing to a publication and a contradictory thing to another publication. that is important to keep in mind when we talk about their strategy and their game plan. it really is oftentimes changing, at least based on giuliani's own account minute to minute and hour to hour. and the president also, people pointed out to me, he kind of takes the tone and tenor of his legal team. and so early on he had people who were counseling cooperation, and that's what you saw for a while. the team has changed up a couple of times and now you have giuliani who is counseling something a little bit different and as the president's attack dog up front. final point in defense of all of these teams including giuliani, the president is not a particularly easy client and that is sort of what is at the core of all of this. >> chuck, the tone and tenor as ashley

but the giuliani game of he wants to testify. "the new york times" reporting last night as if it was breaking news that there are people in the white house who tell the nonew york times that the president really wants to talk to the special prosecutor, but it is his lawyers who are reluctant. there is absolutely no way to back that up. we have no idea whether donald trump actually wants to talk to mueller or not. all the indicators are that he's desperately afraid of talking to mueller. >> yeah. he ought to be, i think. if he's not. it is true that donald trump does appear to believe he can talk his way out of anything, just by lying, basically. that would be a really, really bad strategy to take into a meeting with the prosecutors. and that surely is what his lawyers are worried about. i do believe that his lawyers don't want him to go in there and talk. and as to whether, you know, he really wants to do it or really doesn't want to do it, who knows. it could depend on the day. but as you said at the beginning, if we're taking r

i would defer to rudy giuliani again. this investigation should go away. it was set up on a false pretense. we've read the memos. there is no collusion. they're going to drag this out. this thing just needs to go away so we can get on with the nation's business. we talk about our debt, we talk about these other threats. this is a distraction. think how much more we could get done in congress as a nation if we got rid of this witch hunt. >> i just want to correct you. you keep saying it's a false pretense. do you agree the russians did meddle in the u.s. presidential elections in 2016? >> there's no doubt about that. >> all of the members of the u.s. intelligence community agree, including the president's own director of national intelligence and cia director and everyone else. >> sure. >> isn't that part of the investigation that robert mueller and his team are -- >> we know that happened. >> -- to learn all of the lessons and to see if there was any cooperation whether with george papadopoulos or any of the trump advisors working in that area? >> you know

this is what we have seen from giuliani. he is itching to get this over in any way possible. there has been the longstanding practice at the justice department that when you are 60 days out from the election midterm elections that the prosecutors aren't making big public announcements about elections. they don't want to influence the way that could be perceived for one candidate or another the way it may impact the outcome of an election. but this isn't a hard and fast rule. there is discretion for u.s. attorneys. and so there is no guarantee that mueller is going to be completely dark from now through the mid-terms. and there is certainly nothing that says that mueller has to wrapping things up, finish his report and put that out in the next couple of weeks, even though that teams to be what rudy giuliani would prefer. >> that's a good point. evan tell us about the case of the american lobbyist who pleaded guilty today to funneling- dsh illegally funneling money from a foreign source to the trump inaugural campaign, and also not registering a a foreign agent. >> his name is

there's comey and what giuliani and trump were saying and then there's what giuliani and trump are saying today. >> what actually occurred. whatever the president said, heard by comey, could be -- it could have both think they're telling the truth. different versions of the same movie. >> jamal, yuliany giuliani, th want trump to answer questions about this because they say there's indication that trumuel and team have a favoritism of the comey version of the truth. i asked for the proof. he didn't have any. >> i don't have any idea what mueller's doing. all i know is donald trump lied over 4,000 times according to "the washington post." james comey we have not yet seen a place where he's not told the truth so if you had to choose between the two of them, of course you would choose the person who did not publicly -- is not publicly known to lie over the person who will lie about things, we have seen with our own two eyes. >> you know what? end of the day this report comes down to a written report laid on the desk of rod rosenstein and then taken and given to the house and they're going to

now, rudy giuliani says they have nothing. they already have trump's second campaign manager. trump's -- i mean, indicted. trump's deputy campaign manager indicted. trump's national security adviser indicted. this is like the grand jury indicted all of these people. trump's foreign policy adviser that he said was one of his two most important, indicted. trump's first campaign manager had charges dropped. and trump's first congressional endorser now indicted. the man who put him, who put his name into nomination for republican nominee now indicted. and 5 russi25 intel agencies sa is the forensic evidence of vladimir putin, the gru, ex-kbg agents trying to undermine de c democra democracy. how does rudy giuliani even have the nerve to go on there and say what he just said? >> that is an awful lot of indictments and plea bargains. trump's legal team continues to put out these arbitrary calls based on, i don't know what, other than they want it to end to clear the president. may 10th the vice president of the united states said, q

it will mussel out rudy giuliani. a judge is not going to let rudy giuliani talk like this. i don't think mueller needs it. i would just go ahead without it. >> robert, this is out of balance like all the passengers on a plane moving to one side, all we hear is the rudy giuliani/trump's side. mueller never speaks. he thinks they're waiting to see if guilty or innocent, is that real? >> it is real to a point but i think the previous point about how mueller could issue a report any moment in my conversation tonight with mayor rudy giuliani, that stood out because >> it is real to a point but i think the previous point about how mueller could issue a report any moment in my conversation tonight with mayor rudy giuliani, that stood out because he acknowledged bluntly that is a possibility that mueller could decide enough of the games between the trump's team and mueller and all this back and forth and the letters sending of the interview, the longer mueller holds off on a letter back to the trump's legal team, the more it becomes a possibility. rudy giuliani says this is as poss

jay sekulow and mayor rudy giuliani. how about that? giuliani and sekulow. >> isn't that nice? >> that is. we can start all kind of speculation. >> sure, speculation that the president's lawyers are trying to become the next famous duo like an abbott and costello. listen to some of the questions that rudy and jay decided to take from callers. >> speaking in regards to hillary clinton, we have proof of that. and why are we not pursuing that? why is not ag sessions pursuing those criminal acts? >> you got a little ring going on there? either you're keeping a really steady beat or you got -- right, or a click or you got your wipers on, it's one of the two. >> i just got to know that after this is over, that you guys are really going to drop the hammer on some of these people. i mean, comey, mila, all these other people. >> look, i have some experience with government officials that have not done appropriate conduct. >> they should be looking and investigating and charging barack obama with abuse of power. >> what do you think? >> i want to jump -- i would agree with you, it is cry

giuliani is countering with made up things. and i think some of the reporting is that his counter report is going to talk about, you know, this evil prosecution team. so that's how a former u.s. attorney is going to counter mueller's importance. he's going to smear the career prosecutors who have been working on this. it's disgraceful. >> it's kind of interesting, we do forget that rudy giuliani is a former u.s. attorney. he doesn't talk like somebody who entirely knows how the law work. >> he's not just a former u.s. attorney but a former associate attorney general, and he represents the president of the united states who's ultimately under the constitution. he has a different responsibility than your standard off the street defense attorney. and when you see him come out and attack fbi agents and call them storm troopers, compare them to agents of nazi germany, undermine the justice and know full well it has not just in this case but the justice department's ability to do its job in all security cases is reprehensible and kin

it will mussel out rudy giuliani. a judge is not going to let rudy giuliani talk like this. i don't think mueller needs it. i would just go ahead without it. >> robert, this is out of balance like all the passengers on a plane moving to one side, all we hear is the rudy giuliani/trump cea giuliani/trump's side. mueller never speaks. he thinks they're waiting to see if guilty or innocent, is that real? >> it is real to a point but i think the previous point about how mueller could issue a report any moment in my conversation tonight with mayor rudy giuliani, that stood out because he acknowledged bluntly that is a possibility that mueller could decide enough of the games between the trump's team and mueller and all this back and forth and the letters sending of the interview, the longer mueller holds off on a letter back to the trump's legal team, the more it becomes a possibility. rudy giuliani says this is as possibility. mueller drops the report on an update of the investigation and gives it to the department of justice and rosenstein say it is your decision on how you wan

and we have rudy giuliani also who is on meet the press this morning. we played a little bit of what he said earlier. i guess we have to take the most obvious headline, him summarizing -- what many might say is happening for the last year and a half or. so the truth isn't the truth. >> well, that's an extraordinary statement and i don't even know where to begin to try to parse rudy giuliani on that. i think the trump white house version of the clinton version of the is line. what is your definition of is is? >> and that's what we're seeing so far. why don't we play that first so we can hear it again and get your reflection. >> when you tell many he that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth, he shouldn't worry. twhal is silly. because it's somebody's version of the truth. not the truth. dent have a conversation -- >> truth is truth. i don't mean to go -- >> no, it isn't. truth isn't truth. the president of the united states says i didn't -- >> truth is a truth, mr. mayor. do you realize -- >> no. >> this is going to become a

rudy giuliani says this is a possibility. mueller drops the report on an update of the investigation and gives it to the department of justice and rosenstein say it is your decision on how you want top handle this or you want to upgrade congress and what progress is being made. >> a great nugget there from robert costa and thanks to mimi rocah, terrific conversation tonight. coming up, the manafort jury has the case. they'll begin tomorrow morning, more on what they'll say and deciding on when we come back. metamucil every day. it traps and removes the waste that weighs me down, so i feel lighter. try metamucil, and begin to feel what lighter feels like. >>> jurors in the manafort trial are hours away from starting their deliberations. during closing arguments today prosecution pointed out of the overwhelming evidence of financial of personal gain. in their statement to the jury, manafort's defense attorney argued the government have not met its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. they argued that manafort had other pe

forget what rudy giuliani says to the president about pardoning paul manafort. what paula duncan says is much, much more powerful. the paula duncans of this country are now donald trump's worst political nightmare. paula duncan was supposed to think it was all a witch-hunt, paula duncan was supposed to think paul manafort didn't do anything wrong. paula duncan was supposed to think that truth isn't truth. but the brainwashing didn't work. donald trump and rudy giuliani pumped all of those messages into the propaganda fog that was

rudy giuliani weighing in on that as well. fascination for me was in the "new york times" piece on that tweet. the way that the president's legal team pushed back on that. first the e-mails, thenal the calls with rudy giuliani and jay sekulow. what do you make more broadly of rudy giuliani's behavior, his approach to this interview and this case? >> sure. i mean i think it is clear that when you turn to rudy giuliani in 2018, you know, despite the fact that he used to be a prosecutor, you're not using him to make a legal case, okay. they have lawyers who are far more in the mix right now who will do that and they will battle for the president in the courtroom. what they are doing by using rudy and putting him out there is they are trying to sow doubt about the findings of the investigation to begin with, they are battling in the public sphere because ultimately again impeachment really is a political process. it is not a legal one. and so they are kind of fighting on two fronts. fighting in the courts and then they are fightin

the current lawyer rudy giuliani to be clear there are no rules or deadlines and giuliani know that is. let's begin. with three of the cnn legal analysts. she is the author of make it rain. good evening to you. so good to have you. i will start with you. this is a reporting that jurors in virginia were defending the defense team. trying to get an agreement for his second trial that is supposed to begin next month, right? they didn't reach a deal. what does it say to you those conversations are happening or didn't happen. >> i'm not surprised. they tried to combine these two but paul manafort opt today have the defense he would be able to advocate for himself in virginia. and the prosecution had him on the ropes in the particular case. when he see it is writing on the wall they will go forward. perhaps mueller's team said it is time to bite that apple. now you get no apples. >> the journal reports that the plea talks were stalled over issues raised by special council robert mueller adding that it isn't clear what those issues were. why do you think mueller stepped in and raised concerns

and so when giuliani kind of tries to muddle the waters, all giuliani wants is for this to be a 50-50 fight. >> i'll ask you a simple yes or no question. do you believe that the special counsel knows everything it needs to know and it knows the truth, that nobody has lied to it and they have all the facts exactly as they are? >> no. >> well, then in that case, it is possible, wouldn't you agree, that donald trump could go in there and tell something that is truthful or that he honestly believes is truthful, and it's inconsistent with what the special counsel team believes? >> this sounds like a discussion on philosophy that i had back in college. >> i got to play this because we've been talking about religion. of course the president's top personal lawyer. let's talk about the other side. a person that has been very active, at least on-air as of late, also on "meet the press." let's listen to former cia director brennan. >> you have gone farther than most on collusion. you've gone farther than most on conspiracy. is this -- >> no, i haven't gone further on conspiracy, chuck. i said co

rauly juliann -- rudy giuliani contradicting rudy giuliani. james comby testified under oath that the conversation about michael flynn happened, and a month ago giuliani himself clearly said that trump asked comey to give flynn a break. >>> remember when the president said this on the campaign trail? >> we're going to make america great again. we're going to use our best people. >> i'm going to get the best people. >> we don't want people that are b, c, and d level, we need our absolute best. >> one of the -- it is tough to forget. >> one of the people he hired, one of the absolute best is omarosa. she is promoting her new tell all with explosive claims. >> do you feel betrayed by omarosa. >> low life, she a low life. >> the president making that comment before she released secretly recorded audio from inside the white house's situation room. audio she claims is the moment that chief of staff john kelly released her. so how will the president and the white house respond today. we are never in new jersey near his red dense. >> his torn is insis

now, that's rudy giuliani doing all the talking. the president, for his part, is staying silent on this, not answering shouted questions earlier today about whether or not he still wants to sit down with robert mueller, something he's expressed interest in, in the past. but he is tweeting those very cryptic messages today. his same angry rhetoric about the special counsels investigation, but those two words at the end there, with erin, "stay tuned," is raising the question of what it is that we're staying tuned for. >> exactly. sort of a cliff-hanger the president likes. is it a threat or not? kaitlan, thank you very much. and now let's go to the democratic congressman jared conley who sits on the foreign affairs and oversight committees. congressman, good to see you. if you were rudy giuliani, it would be a very, very serious violation of justice department rules, that's the quote, if robert mueller doesn't wrap up the investigation by september. he's technically wrong, but do you think the investigation should be wrapped up by the

but the giuliani game of he wants to testify. "the new york times" reporting last night as if it was breaking news that there are people in the white house who tell the new york times that the president really wants to talk to the special prosecutor, but it is his lawyers who are reluctant. there is absolutely no way to back that up. we have no idea whether donald trump actually wants to talk to mueller or not. all the indicators are that he's desperately afraid of talking to mueller. >> yeah. he ought to be, i think. if he's not. it is true that donald trump does appear to believe he can talk his way out of anything, just by lying, basically. that would be a really, really bad strategy to take into a meeting with the prosecutors. and that surely is what his lawyers are worried about. i do believe that his lawyers don't want him to go in there and talk. and as to whether, you know, he really wants to do it or really doesn't want to do it, who knows. it could depend on the day. but as you said at the beginning, if we're taking rud

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from the outset, giuliani has shown no regard for consistency. rudy contradicted himself on michael cohen. >> i expected something like this from cohen, he has been lying for years. he has lied all his life. >> similarly giuliani confirmed to give flynn a break. now saying that never happened. >> how is he a good witness for the president. >> he didn't direct him to do that. what he said was can you give him a break. the reality is as a prosecutor i was told that many times. can you give the man a break. >> what happened in that conversation with comey about michael flynn. what did president trump say. >> there was no conversation with michael flynn. >> he goes from saying he did say give him a break to there was no conversation. as he said of paul manafort in june, when the whole thing is over, things might get cleaned up with some presidential pardons. we have seen giuliani go from denying collusion, to arguing collusion isn't a crime. making clear his job is to obfuscate and not to clarify. joining me now is joyce vance and betsy woodrow. is g

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