giuliani to these two guys? you know the southern district, you know, isn't so excited about making this kind of case. it's got to be about what they think these people can tell them. >> well, right. that's the whole thing is to see what the connection is between rudy giuliani and these two folks, what capacity everyone was acting in. it's going to be center to those questions. i'm sure the southern district of new york is going to sort it out. when we were talking about fara earlier, i was talking about the prisoner swap, not as it relates to this particular matter. i think asha, is right on that to the extent that giuliani was doing something on behalf of a foreign government or a foreign official. yes, then fara could come into play. remains to be seen whether that happens or not. >> friends that i share in common with the mayor and, again, i have no personal interest. i don't care of argument i have with the mayor on television, i have no personal interest in seeing had i deal with any negativity, but people

giuliani's lawyer promptly quit his job as giuliani's lawyer today. more on that story later in this show. so what you see is obviously a unified message. but i can tell you right now the facts show there are not unified results for the stonewalling. as you may have noticed, while these letters are all flying around, many of the people who worked for trump are going right ahead and showing up to congress. and testifying. and providing evidence in writing, documents, texts, and they're telling stories. after tonight's meeting of the democratic caucus, speaker pelosi said there won't be any official vote soon. now, in just a moment we'll be joined here on "the rachel maddow show" by two members of the house intelligence committee in the room for that meeting. it will be interesting to see what they have to say about that as well as the other drama unfolding on the hill, this ever-growing parade of former and current senior trump officials who are not defying subpoenas, who are appearing as witnesses in this very real impeachment proceeding. defying the

giuliani to these two guys? you know the southern district, you know, isn't so excited about making this kind of case. it g it's got to be about what they think these people can tell them. >> well, right. that's the whole thing is to see what the connection is between rudy giuliani and these two folks, what capacity everyone was acting in. it's going to be center to those questions. i'm sure the southern district of new york is going to sort it out. when we were talking about fara earlier, i was talking about the prisoner swap, not as it relates to this particular matter. i think asha, is right on that to the extent that giuliani was doing something on behalf of a foreign government or a foreign official. yes, then fara could come into play. remains to be seen whether that happens or not. >> friends that i share in common with the mayor and, again, i have no personal interest. i don't care of argument i have with the mayor on television, i have no personal interest in seeing had i deal with any negativity, but p

giuliani. he said after that, rick perry, the energy secretary and special envoy to ukraine kurt volker were in contact, reaching out to rudy giuliani. he said they were disappointed that the president said that. he said there should be no preconditions for having such a meeting between the president of the united states and the president of ukraine. and then he said, based on the president's direction, we were faced with a choice. we could abandon the goal of a white house meeting for president zelensky which we all believe was crucial to strengthening u.s./ukrainian ties or we could do as president trump directed and talk to mr. giuliani to address the president's concerns. he said they were left with a choice. and they ultimately choose to listen to the president and reach out to rudy giuliani. now he said that he wasn't aware until, quote, much later that rudy giuliani's agenda might include an effort to, quote, prompt the ukrainians to investigate biden and his son or to involve ukrainians

giuliani doing? who was he working for? what level of knowledge did he have about what the foreign government authorities were trying to do? that's what i'm assuming that the fbi is trying to sort out. the facts are confusing. but that's typical with a counterintelligence probe because the adversaries are trying to make it difficult for what's going on. and the key thing here, one of the things i suspect the fbi is focused on, not giuliani per se, but what the foreign actors were trying to do and trying to assess whether mr. giuliani -- did he know what was going on? was he participating? what level of involvement did he have? was he a dupe being used by more sophisticated actors to try to influence u.s. policy because of mr. giuliani's direct access to the president of the united states. that was something they would cherish, a foreigned a sor adve would cherish. >> i have one more question. just an editorial point for the audience. i find it so hard to believe that anybody could play rudy giuliani on this level. the playe

rudy giuliani. the u.s. ambassador to the european union testified when he and other members of a u.s. delegation including energy secretary rick perry urged president trump to call or meet with ukraine's new leader. trump's directed those of us present at the meet ing to talk to mr. rudy giuliani. his personal attorney about his concerns. it is clear rudy giuliani's mission from the president was dig up dirt on joe biden, on biden's son, hunter biden. to find out what trump calls the russian investigation witch hunt actually began in ukraine. while trump was urging the ukrainians to cooperate the conspiracy theory, hundreds of millions of dollars of military aid were being held up. mulvaney admitted last week. >> absolutely, no question about that. that's it. that's why we held up the money. >> reporter: the money was released by the president. his directive to rudy giuliani to get dirt on the biden did not stop. on october 9th, fruman and parnas were arrested at the airport. they had one way ticket europe

giuliani's motives for attacking me. but individuals who had been named in the press as contacts of mr. giuliani may well have believed that their personal financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in ukraine. she wasn't playing along with the scheme to dig up dirt on joe biden, and that angered giuliani, who lobbied the president to dump her. the white house and state department tried to block yovanovitch's appearance, but she was subpoenaed, and she came anyway. imagine that. it sounds like she had a lot to say. >> i just sat through eight hours that went like a new york second. it was that amazing, that powerful, that impactful. >> that was congressman denny heck. he will be here a bit later in this show. president trump had this to say about yovanovitch today. >> she may be a wonderful woman. i don't know her. but she may be very much a wonderful woman. if you remember the phone call i had with the president, the new president, he didn't speak favorably. but i just don't know her. she may be a wo

giuliani's motives for attacking me. but individuals who have been named in the press as contacts of mr. giuliani may well have believed their personal financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in ukraine. she actually was executing an anti-corruption policy, which is what the president claims he was really interested in when he asked the ukrainian president to go after the bidens. manu raju joins us from capitol hill. talk to me about the ambassador's deposition today. what do we know about what she said? >> she just actually left, anderson, after being here nearly ten hours, including most of that time behind closed doors getting grilled by lawmakers and delivering that eye-popping opening statement. the statement is what drove a lot of the conversation internally. probably drove most of the news of what came out of there. democrats are emerging, calling this a really stunning series of comments that this former ambassador made calling it a gripping and personal account of a presidential abuse of p

giuliani was kind of personality. and there weren't a lot of people calling giuliani for his help. >> given the fact that rudy giuliani before he was mayor, he was running the sdny. how ironic is it for you now to think ant that office looking into his financial dealings with the ukraine? >> it's ironic and also very sad. his accomplishments at the southern district of new york are the stuff of legend. there could still be a powerful mafia in this city if not for rudy giuliani. he did extraordinary things as a prosecutor. he did extraordinary things as a mayor. this is a person who achieved greatness. and for him to have kind of taken this path down towards -- i don't know what you want to call it -- towards cynicism is a very, very sad thing. >> and you know, what made me even sadder given what you were talking about is that this fall out of -- the quest at this point with the president, he came out today, the president, and distancing himself a little bit from rudy giuliani. >> right. >> and we saw this rim nis sent

and giuliani associates. do you expect him to comply with that subpoena and what if he doesn't? what should be done? >> well, we need to pursue the law aggressively. i mean, if they do not comply with these subpoenas, they're breaking the law and we're going to aggressively pursue court actions where we have been winning. but let's be clear, they're strategy is just delay, delay, delay. but one thing, joy, i think all of us should focus on is the president's action. it's not just pete sessions or giuliani, this is the president that was at the center of this effort to try to get dirt on joe biden. and he's bragged about it on national television, so the facts are there. the house needs to move expeditiously. >> and the sort of taught going into these proceedings is the way to do it would be to have public hearings so the public could also all come to an understanding of what's happening. of course the down side to that is that republicans could then add their theatrics to the proceedings and make them more co

giuliani? >> they did mention that they had a close friendship with mayor giuliani. >> what did they say about giuliani? >> i think they were just trying to show off their relationships and also let legislators know that perhaps they could be helpful in trying to advance legislative priorities through their contacts. >> did they strike you as motivated most by money, personal enrichment or international geopolitics? >> what i gathered is that they were looking for opportunities to make money to use their influence in politics to get deals, to get legislation passed. that's kind of what i gathered, but again, i didn't -- i'd be dishonest if i was saying that i suspected that they were up to any wrongdoing because they didn't really get into any of these details we're learning now. >> we're not saying you're sherlock holmes and you dialed it in. we'll put the photo up again, as america learns about these individuals, as rudy giuliani explains, here ush with them. do you see them as the type of pe

>> giuliani is involved up to his neck. he has an obligation to testify under oath so he can be asked questions and this can come to light. >> reporter: the president's lead impeachment lawyer jay sekulow responded in a brief statement, read the indictment, neither the candidate nor the campaign have anything to do with them. giuliani was boasting earlier this week he wants to tell his story to lawmakers. >> i would love to testify. and give them a half hour to point out biden inc.'s four decades of crime. i would love to do it. >> reporter: the president continues to blast the fast-moving impeachment proceedings, tweeting, the president of ukraine stated again in the strongest of language that president trump applied no rush and didn't do anything wrong. >> they eviscerated the rules. it's the most unfair situation people have seen. no lawyers, grayou can't have lawyers, you can't do anything. >> reporter: but others are coming forward to criticize the president's efforts to investigate his political opponent and his famil

rudy giuliani. if i were him, i would be thinking about taking the fifth real quick, because you never know where it's going to go with these folks. they're likely to become cooperating witnesses, and if they become cooperating witnesses, they could yield very valuable information on giuliani or what impetus they had, or direction, from trump himself. >> no indictment per se to anything involving the president or the impeachment inquiry, but they gave money to a congressman and try to get the congressman to get rid of the ambassador of ukraine, which is on the witness list. they did not like this talk of using the united states to advance the president's personal political vendetta. at or around the same time parsen met with congressman one and caused congressman 1 to remove the u.s. ambassador to ukraine. parnas' efforts to remove the ambassador were conducted. >> he wrote this letter saying he had a problem with her. people were really confused as to why that was. we see now this is money being fu

the men reportedly dined with giuliani hours earlier. we have new information on their indictment. >>> subpoenaing energy secretary rick perry for documents as the probe expands into the president's candidate. maneuvers that led to the freeze of the aid to ukraine. one signed off on it, raising the eyebrows of career lawmakers. >>> who may turn on him and leveling defectors. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." >> breaking news tonight, two associates of rudy giuliani have been arrested. the two men nabbed by the fbi at the airport as they try to leave the country on one-way tickets were key players in giuliani's crusade to dig up dirt on joe biden in ukraine. also breaking, democrats subpoena energy secretary rick perry for documents as they probe his potential role in the ukraine scandal. lawmakers want to know who told the ukraine leader. we'll discuss with the oversight committee and our correspondents and analysts will have full coverage of today's top stories. >>> first let's go to cnn's evan perez and shimon prokupecz

giuliani. >> reporter: it comes one day after news broke about those two socie associates of rudy giuliani's being arrested on campaign finance charges. and now the president on rudy giuliani, the man who defended him through the last two years, is now coming into question. >> i don't know. i haven't spoken to rudy. >> reporter: tonight president trump won't say if rudy giuliani is still his personal attorney. >> i spoke to him yesterday briefly. he's a veryattorney. >> reporter: the president's refusal to defend his lawyer coming as cnn has learned he's now having doubts about the man who has spent the last two years defending him. >> everything i did was to defend my client. >> reporter: but after two of his associates were arrested on campaign finance charges, there are growing concerns he's a political and potentially legal liability. questions trump himself has raised privately. >> are you concerned that rudy giuliani could be indicted in all of this? >> well, i hope not. again, i don't kn

of course giuliani and trump are working on that. froeman is very close to giuliani. both the men met trump and had dinnerer with him. both met trump jr. so the possibility of a really intricate spider's web coming into view in the coming weeks is strong. >>> the president says he doesn't can know them. >> i dont knowthem. i dont know about them. i dont know what they do. but i don't know. maybe they were clients orudy. i just don't know. >> you'd have to ask rudy. the picture may be inconvenient. there could be pictures. he takes pictures with a lot of people. how long does that defense last? >> not very long because first of all one of these men called trump his friend. he took photos of himself in the white house and mar-a-lago. there's multiple photos of trump with these folks. i wonder how long it's going to be before trump saying he doesn't know who giuliani is. he has a habit of of doing that. we saw him do that with michael cohen but i think the reality of of the situation i think for trump, what makes this difficult is giuliani is ostensibly representing pres

were arrested and he said ask rudy giuliani. let me play that. >> i don't know those gentlemen. now it's possible i have a picture with them because i have a picture with everybody. i don't know them. i don't know about them. i don't know what they do, but -- i don't know. maybe they were clients of rudy. you'd have to ask rudy. >> so the point that gloria just made, david, it sounds a whole lot like this infamous exchange that trump had with reporters about then-personal attorney michael cohen's hush money payment to stormy daniels. here it is. >> do you know about the $130,000 to stormy daniels? >> no. no. >> you'd have to ask michael cohen. michael is my attorney and you'd have to ask michael. >> david, you'll have to ask michael cohen. you'll have to ask rudy. it sure sounds like the same show. >> yeah. sounds like the sound of a branch being sawed off behind these guys, and i think that that, you know, the president uses these people to do his political chores and when it becomes inconvenient he separates himself from them.

but rudy giuliani, who is he? you'd have to ask rudy giuliani. i barely knew rudy was the context. >> also reminiscent of the michael cohen thing. i don't know. you'll have to ask michael. >> it's just a matter of time before he says who's rudy giuliani? i don't know rudy giuliani. i've never met rudy giuliani. i've never been photographed with him. why would i have any connection to him whatsoever? you know, it's -- the speed with which the president seems willing to throw people under the bus as this all started a few weeks ago is you should talk to mike pence and talk to the vice president about some of the conversations he's had here. and so i think there are photographs of him and his son and rudy giuliani together if not separately with these individuals. the president cannot credibly say that he has no connection to the individuals at all. again, i'll echo what i said earlier. that doesn't mean the president is getting charged with a crime or impeached, but he can't distance himself fully from these individuals because the evidence is ther

giuliani is not talking lately. we of course have seen him on fox news, but he's saying he's not going to go under oath right now. take a listen to him talking to abc talking about a congressional subpoena. i should mention there's an official working on the impeachment inquiry that tells nbc news that giuliani will ultimately have to be forced to consider whether what he does in stonewalling will become evidence of obstruction against donald trump, the man he's trying to defend. what happens now? where does the investigation go? and who might turn on who? we have some very special guests on the giuliani of it all and how it connects to impeachment and the cabinet. a former sdny prosecutor and cabinet official and i'm back in just 30 seconds. ing we could boh agree on was getting geico to help with our renters insurance. yeah, switching and saving was really easy! drink it all up. good! could have used a little salt. visit geico.com and see how easy saving on renters insurance can be. >> new subpoenas and new heat o

obviously giuliani is the common denominator and the president. more bad news for giuliani. key witnesses are testifying in the impeachment inquiry. this week. how much worse could this get? >> i don't know. it's going -- sondland for instance is not a career diplomat. he's an ambassador because he gave a lot of money. he has to save himself. when we see a report he'll testify is what he told the ambassador to ukraine there was no quid pro quo. it was because the phone call donald trump had told him to say that. he is saying it's not my idea. i'm clean. gambling i know nothing about it. really. let's see about that. his testimony will be important. i think what we heard today the report of what we heard today, what was said today. is perhaps more damaging than sondland testimony will be. >> you have covered politics in the world for decade. you would know better thaen anyone else. >> i'm an old guy. >> public support. >> happy to be one. >> public support is key to impeachment. >> vital. >> that you say it could spark the house majority leader and the gop to turn on the pres

ask rudy giuliani. last friday he throws himup the bus, and over the weekend he sidles up to him again saying he is a good lawyer. >> as i bring in jason, let me get in two points of order. i'm not specificifying whether the president is quote/unquote a sick dude. >> another the 25th amendment perhaps. >> but i have checking that he has contradicted himself numerous times on matters large and small on this issue. >> yes. >> but number two, jason, when you look at this writ large, it's easy to lose track of the fact that the white house set out a strategy here, and it was to deny evidentiary oxygen to congress. in the people don't comply, if the witnesses don't show up, if they don't turn anything over, then won't congress look potentially to some people like they're reaching to rush to a conclusion in something that is, although it's not a traditional trial, is supposed to deal with evidence and facts? and i would note for your analysis, jason, that is failing before our eyes. the people are speaking. f

giuliani, and four of mr. giuliani's associates who were indicted last week on campaign finance and conspiracy accounts. mr. giuliani is the primary focus of the subpoena. today rudy giuliani defied a congressional subpoena for documents related to his dealings with ukraine. rudy giuliani told abc news if they enforce it, then we will see what happens. an official working on the impeachment inquiry told nbc news that house democrats will be forced to consider rudy giuliani's refusal to comply with the subpoena as additional evidence of obstruction and may infer that the evidence withheld without substantiate the accusations of mr. trump's conduct and efforts to cover it up. rudy giuliani confirmed that he is now operating without his own personal criminal defense lawyer at a time when he is now under federal criminal investigation in "new york times." today multireports reveal giuliani was paid $500,000 to consult for a ukrainian company cofounded by lev par nas, one of the giuliani associates who was arrested

happened to rudy giuliani? nothing has happened to him. he is the same guy. such ald a man of stellar record of repetition, criminal justice and politics, the mayor of new york city -- the one guy, what? of the callerse was saying he was a fabulous mayor after the terrorist attack on 9/11, that he took some snarky shot about giuliani running around like a chicken with his head cut off, which was a totally cnn-type comments. they had to get the snark in. for giuliani to be going after potential corruption and criminal activity, that is what he does. it is in his dna. it is what he has been doing his entire life as a federal prosecutor and the mayor of new york city. our president, neither one of them had any hint of racism or corruption or criminal activity at all -- ok?r stuff, i will grant that with president trump. when you are a real estate developer in new york city and have to get buildings built and you know who -- everybody knows who you got to hire to get the trash taken away and the concrete poured, yo

if you're rudy giuliani, that shouldn't give you comfort. as i look at the facts of this case, i kind of consider these two the paul manaforts of the ukraine scandal. in the russia investigation, paul manafort wasn't directly involved in collusion but he got ensnare in all these other corrupt acts. when the fbi investigates corruption, they do what they call circling the target and you want to know everything about their associates. in investigating these two, if they find rudy giuliani involved, that will impact him a lot. >> obviously there are time considerations if, you know, the white house is going to throw up obstacles to having giuliani actually testify. >> yeah, they need to have him testify. the thing about this is is that, i mean, these two men were doing various things and obviously tried to flee the country. it's very suspicious behavior, you know, from the get-go. but they were also involved in this campaign to get the u.s. ambassador to ukraine fired, right, and the reason for that is because she was pushing back against this

what is the reasoning here from the giuliani legal team. >> reporter: jake, it is classic giuliani bluster. he said this is an unconstitutional and baseless and illegitimate impeachment inquiry and the request por information from these plea committees that are leading the inquiry was overbroad and it goes into attorney/client privilege information and essentially taking the protection that the white house has been offering which is they're not going to comply with any subpoena because they believe that what the democrats are -- are doing is illegitimate. this letter was sent to the congressional committees this afternoon by jon sale who is giuliani's now former attorney. giuliani is telling us that he has parted ways with jon sale. this part of the inquiry or this interaction with congress is over in his view. but we're talking to people close to rooulg and they're vising that he needs a real lawyer, an attorney who will handle this investigation that is ramping up in the southern district of new york and manhattan because there is some real legal problems he faces as a result of this inv

giuliani was the point of contact. and now you have two people from ukraine who have contacts with ukraine who are putting money illegally into american elections now indicted under federal investigation. now you have rudy giuliani who also may be under federal investigation, and then trump calls that the deep state, which is ironic, because last time i checked, the a.g. barr was head of the justice department, which is now investigating -- has now indicted two of giuliani's clients and may be investigating giuliani himself, so the deep state is getting rather shallow. >> yeah. i want to take a look at another character in this ukraine controversy, and that being the vice president. nbc's von hilliard repeatedly pressed pence on whether he knew about a link between the interest in investigating the bidens and then that aid being held up for ukraine. here's part of that exchange. >> i never discussed the issue of the bidens with president zelensky -- >> but with the administration. were you ever aware within the adminis

he's hearing things from rudy giuliani, and rudy giuliani is a conduit for things that he is hearing from officials or former officials in ukraine who are not pleased with the ambassador's position trying to fight corruption in that country. i mean, trump not only says he heard bad things about her, but if you go back to the rough transcript of his call with the leader of ukraine, he tells the president of ukraine that bad things are going to happen to this ambassador. i mean, this is just a -- this all fits together, right? people who are not onboard with this effort to get political dirt from ukraine are moved out of the way or are marginalized. >> susan page, we mentioned at the top as well she appeared today despite the administration essentially trying to tell her not to. she defied the administration and appeared anyway. what do you make of that? >> you know, i'm sure we will find out later what she's saying in this extraordinary hearing. i think it's still going on 9 hours later. but the fact her appearance before the committee is as important as whatever she tells them. becau

the pentagon, and giuliani and giuliani associates, including the two arrested yesterday. democrats hope to get energy. if they don't, the white house continues to deny their demands, expect that to be rolled into an article of impeachment against this president because what they say is that the president is obstructing congress from doing its job. no matter what happens here, the democrats believe they could get more evidence to go after the president and potentially more evidence on obstruction of congress. back to you. >> manu raju, thank you. >>> breaking news. the nobel peace prize has been announced. it was awarded to the prime minister of ethiopia. he was credited with ending the war in which 100,000 people died. he helped to broker a power-sharing deal in sudan. >>> breaking overnight, an iranian oil tanker with an explosion in the red sea. it says it was hit by missiles. oil prices are already soaring. e approach to managing money. that for over 85 years has focused on keeping confidence up when markets are down. an approach where portfolio managers work well inde

could include rudy giuliani and who knows who else. >> i'm rudy giuliani. for you, journalist gabe sherman actually talked to rudy giuliani this morning. what he said, "when i asked rudy about the prospect of the fbi flipping these two guys parnas and fruman to get to him he replied, good luck." rudy giuliani sounding pretty confident there. is sounding the key word? like, should he be worried? >> of course he should be worried. if you know about criminal activity and you do something concrete to help it succeed you're responsible. criminally responsible for that activity. so if rudy giuliani knew about this going on and he was aiding in their efforts, he could get charged. aiding an abetting and happens, the sort of thing charged on a regular basis. i have to say, brooke that is a very interesting answer by rudy giuliani. he doesn't say, they have nothing to flip on. rye didn't do anything wrong. he says, good luck. i mean what a mob boss says. right? when his cop is arrested. good luck. you're never going to flip him. very unusual thing to say. people who

giuliani says he's working for trump for free. but this opens a lot of questions about -- >> who knew? >> not only that, but who is paying for rudy giuliani to do this thing that is benefiting trump and potentially, you know, someone else or another country? is this opening up the possibility of this is a russian influence campaign? >> yes. i think that's something that cannot be just pushed aside and ignored. those payments raise questions about, yes, what giuliani's motives are, who he is exactly working for and what the administration, as well as russia and other players involved, hope to gain from all of this. over the past weeks, we've just seen a web that has further expanded and looped in more of trump's advisers in this larger story. i think there will continue to be a trickle who comes to testify despite efforts by the administration to stonewall this testimony. >> rudy giuliani says that foreigners didn't pay him. but he's been very lacking in details and specifics about how exactly he was getting paid. was it this compa

rudy giuliani and michael cohen. rudy giuliani and mike flynn. than there is rudy giuliani and don mcgahn. don mcgahn ultimately cooperated with the mueller probe, when he had to face uncomfortable choices sort of chose the country, tried to walk that line and still work for the president. rudy giuliani seems to make different choices. >> yeah, decidedly and defiantly different choices, and as you said, nicolle, it seems to me that the main -- the main implication of what you're saying, which strikes me as obviously true, is that michael cohen is in jail and paul manafort is in jail and don mcgahn is not in jail, and if you had to ask me which side of the line rudy giuliani's in danger of being, that's another way in which not just his attitude and his temperament but i think that as this thing expands and deepens, simultaneously, i think the questions surrounding rudy giuliani's criminal exposure are going to become central to this investigation and i'm not predicting where that will end. i'm not saying he will end up in the same place as paul m

we also know there's associates of rudy giuliani and we know rudy giuliani has been involved in this effort to investigate an apopant of the president. there's no through line right there with all that information as of yet, but if you're rudy giuliani that shouldn't give you comfort. as i look at the facts of this case i consider these two the paul manforts of the ukraine scandal. paul manafort wasn't directly involved in the russian collusion but he got ensnared in all other acts. when an fbi does an investigation they do what's called circling a target. if it turns out investigatings these two they find evidence about rudy giuliani trying to interfere in a u.s. election visa vi a foreign government that should worry him a lot. >> do you see any scenario in which house investigators don't exhaust all auoptions to get giuliani to testify? there's time -- >> the thing is these two men were doing various things and obviously tried to flee the country. it's very suspicious behavior, you know, from the get go. but they were also involved in this campaign to get the u.s. ambassador to uk

more breaking news on the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani. more witnesses testifying how giuliani was really the point man on the president pressuring ukraine to investigate the bidens and now new detail answer the federal investigation of giuliani and his work. so let's get right to cnn's senior justice correspondent evan perez breaking this for us right now. you have new details from the justice department's southern district of new york, sdny. the office that prosecuted michael cohen. remind everyone. what are you learning? >> reporter: this is an investigation that goes far longer and back further than we realized, and also that it's much broader than we initially thought. one of the things we're getting a picture of, a better picture of is this involves not only giuliani's financial entanglements with allegedly corrupt ukrainian figures, but also counterintelligence angle is there to this and the idea that perhaps rudy giuliani and be some of his business dealings were part of essentially an influence operation, a foreign influence opera

president trump appeared to waiver on whether he continues giuliani his personal attorney. >> giuliani moved quickly to clear that up. telling a reporter he represents the president. a source close to trump legal team says he won't be dealing with ukraine issues. even though ukraine is at the center of the impeachment investigation. >> this as sources say the president has expressed concern about his personal attorney. after two of giulianis associates were arrested and charged with campaign finance violation as they tried to leave the country. both had been helping giuliani on his request for dirt on the bidens. coming out in a closed door deposition. a current state department employee and 33 year vet of the foreign service. i do not know his motives for attacking me. according to a copy obtained by the "new york times" and "washington post." individuals who have been named in the press as contacts of giuliani may have believed their personal financial ambitions were stymied by the policy in ukraine. >> this is a good person who served 30 years in the foreign service. thrown to the w

giuliani. and these two gentlemen who were arrested last night, they are, like the president, clients of mr. giuliani. they have been arrested on multiple felony counts for allegedly funneling very large amounts of illegal campaign contributions to various republican politicians and political entities using straw men and a fake natural gas company and a number of other schemes to conceal the real origins of these illegal donations, including some of these funds that were given to them for this purpose by an unnamed russian donor. as of tonight these gentlemen are in custody in a federal jail in virginia, although i believe if they post a million dollars bail each sometime tonight, they could be released with monitoring devices and some sort of third-party representing to the court that they promise not to flee the country. but i mean bottom line here, when your lawyer's other clients get arrested, that's not good. you want to know what's worse than that, though? when cnn soon thereafter reports

has anyone heard from giuliani today? >> um, i believe we spoken to giuliani a few times today. i don't think we've gotten sort of a clear answer about how he sees this. he's sort of, you know, given us some different responses on different things. and we expect to hear more from him later today. it'll be interesting to see though going forward what his posture is on this. certainly for the president he took this perspective that he was going to throw everything against the wall to make it more confusing and difficult to understand. he did a lot of television. he did a lot of interviews with the press to try and move public opinion. this is a different type of animal. this is not about public opinion. this is about criminal law. and it'll be, you know, i wait to see whether he rachets back this sort of aggressive nature that he has had that he believes has been very successful for the president. >> frank figliuzzi, i was just handed news that parnas and fruman, the giuliani associates indicted today appeared for their bond hearing. the judge granted their release pending $1 mill

in some ways you can argue even their access to the president through rudy giuliani, they had rudy giuliani's ear. he had the president's ear. that is very significant in all of this and something certainly the fbi officials and u.s. officials have been concerned about for some time. >> yeah. no. this is all a big deal, shimon. with that new nugget also i have on the phone, the "wall street journal" reporter who broke the story on this giuliani lunch. tell me more about the lunch. >> reporter: so we don't know a whole lot more about the lunch itself, but i can tell you another bit of information that's set to go into our story. >> yes. >> reporter: in an interview with us just a little while ago mr. giuliani told us that both of the men were on their way to vienna for a business trip and had back and forth to vienna multiple times over the past few months and wouldn't elaborate just what that business was, but that is where they were headed. >> and what was their relationship with rudy giuliani? >> reporter: they are, they've been associates for the past year working with mr. giuliani to intr

giuliani in the eukraine policy. did he actually advance giuliani's goals here? >> except he was disappointed of what the president was reque requesting of him. he took the ball and ran with it. he was trying to pha a sill tate giuliani's efforts, trying to introduce him to ukrainian officials and someone himself was carrying the same corrupt message including they needed to be investigating the bidens for the president's personal political interest. this is sondland saying i'm not going to be the equal guy so i don't know how strong of a message it is that he was saying i knew it was wrong, but that's the message that he's not willing. >> sondland, not a career diplomat. >> he's a donor. >> a big republican. $1 million to the trump inaugural committee. he says in his testimony today under oath clearly that he didn't understand until later that giuliani was trying to dig up dirt, political dirt, on the bidens. is that plausible? >> no, not really. he's preserving some level of plausible deniability, but i don't see how in that back in the spring, "the new york ti

giuliani has defied your subpoena? >> you're right. i mean, look all of us are very disappointed, dismayed, disturbed, all of it that rudy giuliani is not cooperating with the congress even though he's been subpoenaed. and so there is a split of opinion about what do we do on the subpoenas. do we go litigate them? do we hold back? i think all of us agree that this is another instance because rudy giuliani has been, i think, has consulted with the white house, we think it's an instance of obstruction in this case. and ultimately when articles of impeachment i think are brought forward you'll see all of these cases of obstruction put forward or these instances of obstruction put forward. but i think that we've got to pursue every legal avenue possible to get him to comply. hopefully he'll decide to come forward on his own. as you've seen in the last week and a half or two weeks, there have been people who initially resisted coming forward who decided after all to come forward. i hope for rudy giuliani that will be the case as well. >> i

rudy giuliani had targeted her as part of an effort to push for her ouster, as well as the rudy giuliani associates who arrested yesterday. they were all part of this effort and scheme of sorts that were alleged by prosecutors yesterday in part to push her out. these are all the questions that will undoubtedly be asked behind closed doors, exactly what happened there, and we got a read about some of the things that are happening behind closed doors. eleanor holmes norton, a congresswoman sitting on three committees interviewing the witness emerged from the closed door facility and she said that nobody, that yovonavitch has not indicated whether or not anybody has prevented her from testifying. now, that is a key question because we had wondered whether or not the state, she was di -- defying the state department, but she has not indicated that yet at this moment. at the same time, she says that yovonavitch has been trying to clear up false statements about her. this could be in relation to what the republicans were saying, she was disloyal to the president, criticized the president, and

the president directed giuliani to talk, to deal with -- directed perry to talk to giuliani about his conversations with ukraine. gentlemanic? >> manu raju on capitol hill. let's chew overall of this. the allegation is starting to get dense and confusing. but the allegation is that there's a bunch of ukrainians in ukraine, and president trump, rudy giuliani and others are pushing them to investigate joe biden, to get dirt. as rick perry was suggesting, that an energy company be restructured so as to help some of the people they're counting on to provide some of this dirt. would that be a crime? is that against the law? >> i have to think about whether or not that would be a crime. the question as to whether or not it's okay for u.s. government officials to be requesting foreign assistance, really, we can think about different statutory crimes, campaign violations, bribery, things in that realm. that seems extraneous. but the bigger issue is the constitutional issues, which is whether or not it's abuse of the executive authority to be requesting foreign assistance to assist in that cam

he has a 30-year relationship with rudy giuliani. he knows giuliani's children. you know, they've been friends for a long time. i think that he is uncomfortable throwing him under the bus the same way he has done with other people, and i think he's not sure where this goes. i think he doesn't want to toss him aside if there is no reason to. however, what we learned today is that giuliani is being looked at by the u.s. attorney's office for a possible violation, federal registered lobbying agent. it's hard to see how he would be the president's lawyer if he himself is under active investigation. i think the other point i would just make very quickly, rudy giuliani is the main television face for this president for a very long time. there's only been a couple of people who go on tv. kellyanne conway is one from the white house. hogan quid hogan gidley is one from the white house. but rudy giuliani has been all over the place for the president. if he is not out there fighting for the president on tv, that's something the president values as much as anything. >> davi

giuliani finds himself under scrutiny from the same u.s. attorney's office he led in the 1980s where he rose to prominence as a tough on crime prosecutor. as you point out, it appears there is more than one statute that he's up against. given that great knowledge, is that something he probably completely disregarded? or hurts him because he ought to know better? >> well, i think people who have followed rudolph giuliani's career have seen it as sort of bifurcate or trifurcated thing. you could sort of define him one way and see his actions, if he didn't agree with them. or at least they're rationally connected. then he became a political figure and now he's a new thing. there doesn't seem to be. of a connection between his behavior now and his life starting as a prosecutor. i don't know. this is a very dramatic turn in his biography. it almost seems like the obvious next step in this impeachment inquiry. the guys he was working with have been arrested now on conspiracy charges. and if he has been admitting publicly that he's been doing work

. >>> when we come back, two friends of rudy giuliani who have worked with rudy giuliani were described by their lawyer as members of donald trump's legal team. they have also been described as alleged criminals working for russian gangsters, and they are actually currently indicted. former justice department official matt miller will join us to connect those dots along with former federal prosecutor mimi rocah, next. at bayer, we create medicine that treats bleeding disorders like hemophilia. so victor can keep doing what's in his blood. at bayer, this is why we science. our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition... for strength and energy! whoo-hoo! great-tasting ensure. with nine grams of protein and twenty-seven vitamins and minerals. ensure, for strength and energy. >>> the trump justice department is closing the door to rudy giuliani. he is not welcome there anymore now that he is under investigation by the u.s. attorney in manhattan, an investigation that some members f the william barr justice department did not know about when they had a meeting with rudy giuliani r

giuliani has defied your subpoena? >> look, all of us are very disappointed, dismayed, disturbed, all of it that rudy giuliani is not cooperating with the congress even though he's been subpoenaed and so there is a split of opinion about what we do on the subpoenas. do we go litigate them, do we hold back? i think all of us agree that this is another instance because rudy giuliani has been, i think, has consulted with the white house, we think it's an instance of obstruction in this case. and ultimately when articles of impeachment i think are brought forward you'll see all of these cases of obstruction put forward or these instances of obstruction put forward. and but i think we've got to pursue every legal avenue possible to get him to comply. as you've seen in the last week and a half or two weeks there have been people who initially resisted coming forward who zrieds zrie decided after all to come forward. >> i know you can't speak to specific testimony, do you feel that the witnesses that you have heard from have

it also may take town rudy giuliani. the question is has giuliani done enough to also be impeached? well, let's get to it in "the daily show"'s story let's find out. >> time to put your gavel in your mouth. this is the courtroom or judge-mental. ( cheers and applause ) >> trevor: all rise! ha! i didn't say simon says. welcome to the impeachment trial of rudy giuliani, personal attorney to the president and courageous rabies survivor. ( laughter ) giuliani is accused of a number of high crimes that have thrust this nation into turmoil. let's begin the trial. first! the president's lawyer is accused of being the rig leader of this entire circus! let's see the evidence. >> the whistleblower singles out rudy giuliani as a central figure in the scandal. the president's personal lawyer is mentioned 30 times in the complaint which sites meetings he had with at least seven ukrainian officials. u.s. officials were deeply concerned about circumvision of national security decision making and efforts to relay messages between the white house and ukraine. >> trevor: yes, it appears rudy giuliani

more now on giuliani's two associates. igor fruman and lev parnas, they pleaded not guilty today to federal campaign finance charges. surprisingly an attorney for parnas suggested that he might claim executive privilege because the lawyer said giuliani was parnas' attorney and giuliani was also working for president trump during the time in question. that claim of course could link president trump to the government charges. it's clear both fruman and parnas have been in giuliani's orbit for some time now. but the question is who exactly are they? cnn's senior investigative correspondent drew griffin looked into it. >> reporter: all you need to know about rudy giuliani's now indicted clients is that a long list of people who did business with lev parnas or igor fruman from a home rental, a property lease, money loans, even basketball tickets have sued them. >> there's a saying in russia. don't go in the forest if you're afraid of wolves. and these guys, they just weren't wolves. i mean they were radioactive wolves. there we

working for giuliani and also he was working for giuliani as giuliani was working for the president of the united states. and all those issues are implicated and all the records might be evidence at this criminal trial. that's the kind of sort of complex situation. some might call it almost a nightmare for a prosecutor to wade through all that information and deal with the cross-currents in terms of people who might have interest in that case. >> a very large white board would be required for all of this. josh gerstein, thank you. senior legal affairs writer for politico, appreciate your time. paul butler, please stay with us. we'll talk to you in just a little bit. >>> coming up, big questions surrounding potential testimony from former john bolton aide charles kupperman. why he's asking a judge whether or not he can be forced to testify in the impeachment inquiry. ic toothbrush. but my hygienist said going electric could lead to way cleaner teeth. she said, get the one inspired by dentists, with a round brush head. go pro with oral-b. oral-b's gentle rounded brush head removes more p

and giuliani asserting he is still his lawyer. i did speak earlier this week to someone undoubtedly the president's lawyer. that's jay sekulow. and the time he gave the most ground was around anything giuliani was up to, which was in theest interesting. >> it was out of my jurisdiction. >> when did you learn rudy giuliani was asking foreign governments to investigate joe biden? >> i learned i guess when you did because that was not in my jurisdiction. >> i'm asking when you knew. you don't know when i learned it. >> i didn't know anything until it got public. >> when it spilled the to the public report oing? >> yeah. >> jennifer and jonathan? >> these people are rotten in answering questions they don't want to answerer. you need get rid of the pauses and the blinking eye lashes. i think what they are doing is the preverbial throwing rudy under the bus. pompeo has an inters in separateli separating himself from rudy, the president has an interest for separating himself. bill barr does and if it's all of those people saying i dont k