the furniture making of thomas and abraham lincoln. >> i love lincoln, and i always have. it kind of started as a hobby, but then it's really grown since then. >> the duo begin by asking, what exactly is this mallet and where did it come from? see the half-moon shaped groove? it looks like part of a hole that had been drilled into a larger chunk of wood. steve concludes that that hole once held a much longer handle, and that this mysterious relic began as a completely different tool. >> okay, i brought with me today a maul which looks pretty much identical to what that mallet would have looked like originally. >> is this the kind of thing that lincoln used as a young man as the rail-splitter? >> absolutely. and if you look at the lincoln mallet, you can see it broke, and it really split almost symmetrical. >> so, lincoln's broke and was repurposed? >> yes, into a smaller bench mallet. now we're no longer hitting wedges to split rails with it, but something a lot smaller. >> it's on the freshly exposed surface that the new mallet is dated with nails that steve confirms are

and when lincoln. lifted. his corpus he did so under legal strictures when the congress was in recess and couldn't uphold it and he waited until they came back and then they approved it and so on there and what you were dealing with was in fact an insurrection and what was the insurrection against it was against democracy against accepting democracy and against the very heart and constitution united states of america and the question is. whether trump will engage in that sort of activity a kind of counter revolution against constitutional democracy as we go forward. part of that pathway will be his relationship with the media which. to be kind i would say is a bit stressed and i think i'd love to hear about lincoln's relationship with the media well lincoln had. deep and close relations with the media of his time and even before lincoln in effect was the kind of editor of the newspaper in springfield illinois which was the leading newspaper in the state it was the illinois state journal and he wrote hundreds o

and when lincoln. lifted. his corpus he did so under legal strictures when the congress was in recess and couldn't uphold it and he waited until they came back and then they approved it and so on there and what you were dealing with was in fact an insurrection and what was the insurrection against it was against democracy against accepting democracy and against the very heart and constitution of the united states of america and the question is. whether trump will engage in that sort of activity a kind of counter revolution against constitutional democracy as we go forward. part of that pathway will be his relationship with the media which. to be kind i would say is a bit stressed and i think i'd love to hear about lincoln's relationship with the media well lincoln had. deep and close relations with the media of his time and even before lincoln in effect was the kind of editor of the newspaper in springfield illinois which was the leading newspaper in the state it was the illinois state journal and he wrote hun

we're trying to keep lincoln in here. you're the lincoln man. it is interesting that a spear that looks so peculiar like that can generate this kind of discussion about the topic of john brown and what he stood for. here's the question. was his antislavery passion a function of his religiosity? and were his sons as dedicated to the causes asjohn brown was? >> the answer is yes and yes yes. it was definitely bround in religiousty and his interpretation of god's will and god's hatred of slavery. it was a mess yannick approach. when you say that the overwhelming number of questions are about the pike, i don't know if you remember how worry ried we were about putting that object at the beginning of the book. it doesn't really photograph all that well. it is what it is. also, how do you convey the size of it because it's 6'9". >> yeah, it's like this. >> yeah. and you came up with the idea of running it diagonally across two pages, which at least added some heft to it. that was a good decision. but i'm glad people get it, you know, because it's not a

lincoln was harder because most people talked about lincoln. what you got from him was his speeches and letters. douglass, i had everything. so frederick douglass was easier to write, i had so much to pair down. but i think it was a process of secretion, beginning and growing it out and shaping it as it happened, and i would be really remiss if i didn't mention jennifer nelson in this, who directed the piece. because i think jennifer was really on me about keeping it balanced. this is the great thing about a director. actors are in the moment and actors are the greatest resource you have because they're in it and they will tell you when it's working and tell you when it's not, and sometimes they will say, what if i do this? and they may save your bacon in that moment and you steal it. but the director has the overall vision. and the number of times jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece, so as craig said, it had that quality of two guys face to face was crucial. so, when i say it was a year, it sounds like a long time to people, bu

sculpture of lincoln. and i'd like you to tell our audience about the reach of the casts that volk did and how subsequent generations of sculptures owe a great dead of gratitude for what he did. >> so, obviously, in the absence of the living model after 1865, sculptures relied on volk, volk went on to create his statue. there is one in rochester and one in springfield, not enormously successful as public works of art but he did reproduce busts, nondrape busts, the hands and he did very well manufacturing this -- these reproductions. so that sculptures eventually bought copies of their own. augustus used the mask for his standing in chicago and daniel chester french, of course, used the mask and the hands which are preserved at chesterwood in the stock bridge, massachusetts, to model the great lincoln memorial sculpture. and no, they don't say a.l. in sign language which is a myth about the hands in the lincoln memorial. >> interesting. >> i wrote a book so i get a love of questions about that and he done a

a lot of anti lincoln stuff. lincoln and benjamin butler -- lincoln sneaking into baltimore -- >> but it's interesting. he should mention lincoln and bulk, because apparently volker had a change of heart after lincoln's assassination. >> so he said, right? he said he always regretted that he was ever mean to that lovely man, but he painted, he went on to paint, but his paintings were of robert lee, and lee morning stonewall jackson. he never didn't lincoln painting that showed any kind of sense of having regretted what he did. >> let's move on to our next image. this is also a large painting. this is called an episode of war. the cavalry charge. i know the name of eternal leg. >> we called it a hidden treasure. i know it's kind of upon. i have to apologize. >> that's cute. (laughs) it is a dramatic scene. we do not want to minimize it. he was a useful, well connected new yorker. tell us about him and this particular episode of war. >> he was a 23 year old. a young man. when he joined company h. at the first new y

lincoln was harder because most people talked about lincoln. what you got from him was his speeches and letters. douglass, i had everything. frederick douglass was easier to write, but i had so much to pare down. but i think it was a process of secretion, beginning and growing it out and shaping it as it happened, and i would be really remiss if i didn't mention jennifer nelson in this, who directed the piece. because i think jennifer was really on me about keeping it balanced. this is the great thing about a director. actors are in the moment and actors are the greatest resource you have, because they're in it and they will tell you when it's working and tell you when it's not, and sometimes they will say "what if i do this?" and they save your bacon in that moment. you steal it. but the director has the overall vision. and the number of times jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece, so as craig said, it had that quality of two guys face to face was crucial. so, when i say it was a year, it sounds like a long time to people, but a

and when lincoln. lifted. his corpus he did so under legal strictures when the congress was in recess and couldn't uphold it and he waited until they came back and then they approved it and so on there and what you were dealing with was in fact an insurrection and what was the insurrection against it was against democracy against accepting democracy and against the very heart and constitution of the united states of america and the question is. whether trump will engage in that sort of activity a kind of counter revolution against constitutional democracy as we go forward. part of that pathway will be his relationship with the media which. to be kind i would say is a bit stressed and i think i'd love to hear about lincoln's relationship with the media well lincoln had. deep and close relations with the media of his time and even before lincoln in effect was the kind of editor of. the newspaper in springfield illinois which was the leading newspaper in the state it was the illinois state journal and he wrote hu

and when lincoln. lifted. his corpus he did so under legal strictures when the congress was in recess and couldn't uphold it and he waited until they came back and then they improved and so on there and what you were dealing with was in fact an insurrection and what was the insurrection against it was against democracy against accepting democracy and against the very heart and constitution of united states of america and the question is. whether trump will engage in that sort of activity a kind of counter revolution against constitutional democracy as we go forward. part of that pathway will be his relationship with the media which. to be kind i would say is a bit stressed and i think i'd love to hear about lincoln's relationship with the media well lincoln had. deep and close relations with the media of his time and even before lincoln in effect was the kind of editor. the newspaper in springfield illinois which was the leading newspaper in the state it was the illinois state journal and he wrote hundreds of

why was lincoln in the war secretaries? office because every evening he would go there and watch the mill the telegraph wires for military movements in casualties and battles. i've often wonder why the white house did not a quid itself with its own telegraph lincoln but i think he enjoyed it. he walked along offense way to the nearby war department of evening sat there and enjoy the banter with the telegraph operators and obviously the election is paramount on his mind otherwise he will lose his role as commander-in-chief. with a month to go in the election. >> let's move back -- forward to the military situation. let's go to our next object this evening. this is the terms of surrender, a pool 1965. the most famous scene that was forever enshrined from ulysses grant as a hero at the at the mattocks courthouse in virginia. we can move to the next image which shows the image of grant and lee. there is a contrast between the two. the rather noble looking lee. how with their physical differences used to make a symbolic point as

lincoln was harder. because most people talked about lincoln. you know, what you got from him was his speeches and letters. douglass, i had everything. so frankly, frederick douglass was a bit easier to write, although i had so much to pare down. i think it was a process of accretion, of beginning with something and then growing it out and shaping it as it happened. i would be really remiss if i didn't mention jennifer nelson in this, who directed the piece. because i think jennifer was really on me about keeping it balanced. this is a great thing about a director. actors are in the moment. actors are the greatest resource you have. because they're in it, and they will tell you when it's working and they will tell you when it's not, and sometimes they'll say, what if i do this? and then they save your bacon in that moment and you steal it. but the director has that overall vision, and the number of times that jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece, so as craig said, it had that quality of the two guys face-to-face was crucial. so wh

lincoln says i know who you are. that is a little chilling, but douglas writes a wonderful story about how lincoln unfolded himself from a lower chair. howard over him. but never in any of their meetings that he treat him in any way that suggested there was a difference of color, and douglas always reckoned that it was because they had both risen from poverty and formed a common bond. one thing lincoln did and it was part of the story that he did not tell. he trusted douglas to map out a plan to liberate as many african americans as possible at the end of 1864, thinking he might lose his election campaign for the second term. therefore, the democrats would abrogate the executive orders and say no more -- douglas produced data dazzling detailed plans of creating an army of african americans to go into this dangerous confederacy and convey the message that they were legally freed their. lincoln did spend his abilities -- when a quick story. after his second inaugural, douglas breaks into the white house reception. he h

lots of anti-lincoln stuff. lincoln sneaking into baltimore. valerie: it is interesting you should mention lincoln and volck, because apparently he had a change of heart after lincoln's assassination. or did he? harold: so he said. he said he always regretted he was mean to that lovely man. he painted. he went on to paint, but his paintings were of robert e. lee, and lee mourning stonewall jackson. he did confederate inspired paintings. he never did a lincoln painting that showed any kind of sense of having regretted what he did. valerie: yeah. let's move on to our next image. this is also a large painting, not quite as large as return of the 69th. this is called "an episode of war: the calvary charge of lt. henry hidden" by an artist named victor nehlig. harold: we called it a hidden treasure in the book. i know that is kind of a pun i have to keep apologizing for. valerie: that is cute. [laughter] but anyway, it is a dramatic scene. we don't want to minimize it. henry was a useful, well-connected new yorker. tell us a bit about him and this p

>> you know, lincoln -- we don't even have a smoking gun to prove that lincoln wanted johnson on his ticket. i suspect he did. two of his private secretaries said that they were -- they carried the word to the national convention. lincoln had run in 1860 with a quintessential easterner, hannibal hamlin, of maine. can't get much more eastern than that. but in '64, lincoln was the quintessential northerner, and he needed a pro-union southerner, so he calculated. i think he was very happy with johnson. i don't think johnson in that moment dragged anything down. i think he had a positive impact in helping lincoln sweep the country. i didn't mention that he got 212 electoral votes in the end to only 21 for mcclelland. i should have said that when we showed the little -- the board. but no, johnson didn't begin to show his stripes until inauguration day when he turned up drunk for his swearing-in. and lincoln may then have realized that he had made perhaps the worst mistake of his presidency. >> one final question. did appomattox officially end the war? and if not, what did? did jefferson d

lincoln do have an object you can. hold like an excuse themselves and the next thing he heard was song coming from lincoln's privy and shed. when lincoln came back, he was holding the end of a stick. he had cut the handle off a broom he explained and now he was wiggling it and volker said, mr. lincoln you don't have to do that because i'm not gonna use the stick in the final sculpture. lincoln said all i wanted to have it nice and that's the cast of the right hand it is shaken so many hands that it swollen. apparently, that was something that happened to lincoln because we know at just three years later, his hand was so swollen from handshaking at a new year's reception at the white housefp richard nixon grew a moustached during a debate, abraham lincoln's hand swelled. >> we have a couple more minutes just between ourselves before we open up to cuban a. i just wanted to ask you one more thing. if we can see the slide of the seeded lincoln image? this is daniel chester french. we have the mall cat of the head, the life

and when lincoln. lifted. his corpus he did so under legal strictures when the congress was in recess and couldn't uphold it and he waited until they came back and then they approved it and so on there and what you were dealing with was in fact an insurrection and what was the insurrection against it was against democracy against accepting democracy and gans the very heart and constitution of united states of america and the question is. whether trump will engage in that sort of activity a kind of counter revolution against constitutional democracy as we go forward. part of that pathway will be his relationship with the media which. to be kind i would say is a bit stressed and i think i'd love to hear about lincoln's relationship with the media well lincoln had. deep and close relations with the media of his time and even before lincoln in effect was the kind of editor of. the newspaper in springfield illinois which was the leading newspaper in the state it was the illinois state journal and he wrote hundreds

lincoln is an insider. he's trying to say this is going to be harder than you think it is because there's politics involved, and institutions involved. so you said the play was commissioned the same year the center for education and leadership that was going to open across the street. i had already done a couple of things for the theater, a couple of short things. one destiny, some of you may know. so i got an email in the fall of 2010 asking if i would be interested in writing a play for 2012. the thing you need to realize is that commissions often come with parameters. and there are things that the theater wants you to do when you write the play. it's almost like an assignment. so, one destiny, lincoln assassination, half-hour, two actors, go. so i had to find my assignment for this play. in the original email, "we would like it to be an exploration of leadership. we would like it to focus on lincoln, 3-5 characters, simple set. we would like one of the characters to be african-american, if possible, and

and release from abraham lincoln. long before computerized lincoln seems, able to comprehend and analyze the most fragmented early voting trends. you write lincoln had been a serious student of voting trends since his day as a poll watcher in illinois. political,redictions statistical? or instinctive? above.zer: all of the he was a remarkable and localized analyst. he used to make the rounds in the illinois legal circuit and and looke into account at the election results and say the republican part of the voting increased by 2%. if this continues, we will be able to elect a senator and he to increases head the precinct. he knew about turnout. all of the above. is aie: the first object projection of the november 1864 election. this is in lincoln's handwriting. what does this reflect? aboutlzer: don't worry the focus. this is a very faded document. it was not meant to be kept. those of us old enough to whenber the 2000 election estimates were written on a big piece of vote tag, this is octoberdoodling in 1864, a month b

lincoln was harder because most people talked about lincoln. what you got from him was his speeches and letters. douglass, i had everything. frederick douglass was easier to write but i had so much to pair down. but i think it was a process of secretion, beginning and growing it out and shaping it as it happened, and i would be really remiss if i didn't mention jennifer nelson in this, who directed the piece. because i think jennifer was really on me about keeping it balanced. this is the great thing about a director. actors are in the moment and actors are the greatest resource you have because they're in it and they will tell you when it's working and tell you when it's not, and sometimes they will say what if i do this? and they save your bacon in that moment. you steal it. but the director has the overall vision. and the number of times jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece, so as craig said, it had that quality of two guys face to face was crucial. so, when i say it was a year, it sounds like a long time to people, but a year

and opposed to lincoln, and joint in the general (inaudible) of lincoln. even at the same time that there was blatant antisemitism in the south, and the victimization, blaming of the jews for all sorts of shortages and claims that they were praying on deprivations and made money. but there is no uniformed jewish soldiers were just as likely to be bigoted or worried about african american troops as white soldiers. there aren't that many heroic stories in this moment, when african american soldiers are allowed to join up, we have records of many soldiers who said, i'm going home. i'm going to just give up. i'm going to abandon ship. or camp. and there were those who did. i think the turning point for jewish and christian white soldiers, as they regarded african american troops, was when they proved they could fight. when they proved they would fight, just as hard or harder than the old troops. when they proved their extraordinary courage at fort wagner. they were subject to a prostheses at fort pillow, but general forest. he had soldiers executed after they

huge fan of lincoln. my question is lincoln's ability to reach out to his political rivals and incorporate them into larger scheme. would you, on the possibility of that happening now? >> that's a great question. it would be much harder now because now have this permanent campaign so the minute the president is elected of the second term. in a lincoln stay most presidents for the previous present i just had a single term so not so obsessed about winning. today they would be worried about giving a platform for the rival that they could then use against them in the following four years. the other thing is these guys were all rivals of one another. they said terrible things about one another. you will see as you get further in about unmitigated scoundrel. it wouldn't go to each other's offices. and you imagine what would happen tonight if we were to hear on the news these guys and the cabinet saying these things about each other? it would explode in the shadow lincoln told a together. i wish it were possible

lincoln liked him. he let him work there for six months, but while he was there, he made sketches of the family and he commissioned the famous photograph of lincoln and tad looking at this photograph album that looked very much like a bible, and no one ever, ever corrected that impression because it was, in 1865, lincoln of course dies. he's still working on his emancipation engraving. the painting is done and he's pretty well-known, so he goes to a new york engraver. jc derby. and hi woe works with another publisher to do a lincoln family. and carpenter's price was $500, which was a pretty good fee, but he decides to write to mary lincoln, who's his buddy at this point, and she suggests all of the other models, this handsome picture of robert. who was then at harvard. a picture of willie, who died in 1862. he's the middle child holding the sword and that's why it's very specifically the family in '61 and when carpenter suggests a mary, she suggests one that was taken before she gained weight. so, she's

after lincoln died douglass always entoned lincoln because he knew that lincoln was on the right side. am i right, richard, there? >> i think so. i mean, he knew he went farther than others. i don't think he had ever felt that he had gone far enough. but relatively speaking, i think he did alaud lincoln as far as he went. and i think that would have continued. if lincoln had not died, i really do believe that relationship would have continued over the next -- i think we would have had douglass back. i think he would have asked him -- you know that phrase of, the stone that sharpens the knife, you know that phrase. i think of douglass as the stone that kept sharpening lincoln's knife. lincoln was not sharp to begin with, but he needed to be pushed and guided and the fact that i think they were both -- that they did see each other. i think what you said earlier was right. they recognized something of themselves in the other and that's why they were able to listen and not, you know, i thought about the scene the other day when we were talking about it. it would have been so easy for linc

lincoln was harder. most people talked about lincoln. all you got from him was a speech is in his letters. douglas i had everything. so frankly front fredericton glass was a little easier. i think it was a process of a creation. beginning with something then growing it out, shaping it as it happened. i would be really remiss if i didn't mention the director of the peace. i think jennifer was really army about keeping a balance. it's a great thing of the director, actors are in the moment. actors are the greatest resource you have. they are in it and they will tell you when it's working and will tell you when it's not and sometimes it will say, what if i do this? and they save your bacon in that moment. but the director has that overall vision and the number of times it jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece. so as craig said it had that quality of the two guys face to face that was crucial. when i say it was a year, that sounds like a long time i'm sure the people. but a year is very short. to go from zero to opening night,

another lincoln question for you. did lincoln ever visit any of the prisons? was he concerned about the conditions? harold: he visited camp hospitals. that would be as close as he got to seeing confederates who were under restraint. when he went to visit the wounded at campsites, he would go to the tent that contained the confederates. he would pass the tent that contained the confederate soldiers. he would recognize them and extend his hand and say, i will shake your hand if you shake mine. always, they were drawn to him and shook his hand. he did not visit prison or war camps, to my knowledge, but he did visit hospital camps. valerie: we are up to our last question now. are you aware of any african-american artists who depicted this era? harold: yeah, there were some. i hate to go back to lincoln as my fallback, but there was a painter named derek bowser who painted lincoln in other scenes. yes, there were african-american artists that worked. not many, but lincoln was a particularly evocative and attractive subject, so he did attract at least bowser and oth

also anti-lincoln stuff. it is interesting you should mention linkin lincoln ad volck, because apparently he had a change of heart after lincoln's assassination. harold: so he said. he said he ever regretted he was mean to that man. paint, but histo paintings were of robert e. lee, and lee morning stonewall jackson. a lincoln painting sense ofed any kind of having regretted what he did. valerie: let's move on to our next image. this is also a large painting, not quite as large as the one of 69. this is called an episode of war, the calvary charge by an artist named victor nelligan. we called it a hidden treasure in the book. -- that is is a pond upon a have to keep apologizing for. valerie: that is cute. [laughter] we don't want to minimize it. tell us a bit about him and this particular episode of war. harold: he was a very young man, 23 years old when he joined company h of the first new york cavalry. yes, there were calvary units in new york. a brave young guy. his family were very wealthy shipbuilders. he

and the first is did lincoln ever see douglas's newspaper piece and, if so, what was lincoln's reaction? >> so, we had no evidence that lincoln subscribed to douglas's newspaper. in those days, having a subscription to an ag abolitionist newspaper, much less published by an african-american, was like akin to subscribing to pornography by mail. i'm not equating them but the reaction would have been one of shock. so lincoln, as far as i know, unless he saw newspapers that were subscribed to by his rather liberal law partner back in illinois, william herndon, did not see the liberator, did not see douglas's papers in their various names, the north star. but he surely knew what douglas was like and he surely knew that douglas called him a slave catcher, attacked his first inaugurational address and he pushed him and he pushed him along. but did he read the newspaper that we know of for sure? no. >> next question, since most or many slaves were not permitted to learn to read, was frederick douglas's broadside read by a few or the word spread. how was the word disseminated? >> that is aaimed

another lincoln question. did lincoln ever visit any of the questions? was he concerned about the conditions? >> he visited camp hospital. that would be as close as he got to seeing confederates who were under restraint. so he famously, when he went to visit the wounded at campsites, he would make it to the tent that contained confederate prisoners and would often say -- they would recognize him and he would extend his hand and say, i will shake your hand if you will shake mine. almost always they were drawn to him and shook his hand, and so he didn't visit prisoner of war camps to my knowledge but he did visit hospital camps were the wounded were as good as in prison. >> we're up to our last question now. are you aware of any african-american artist who depicted this era? >> yeah. there were some. one -- i hate to go back to lincoln as my fallback, but there was a painting named david bowser who painted lincoln in other scenes. so, yes, there were african-american artists that worked. not many. but lincoln was, you know, a particularly evocative and att

he was about to do lincoln. and like many capable portraiters, he flourished to have grant portraits for clubs and homes and veterans organizations and this is one of those portraits -- i love it because it's so -- again, it really reflects grant's kind of causal self-confidence. hand in pocket, wearing the uniform, but, you know, calmly in command, as all of the portraits showed him. and, by the way, speaking of politics, you mentioned 1868 as the date this painting was completed. and there's a political story too because that's the year grant himself, three years after lincoln's death, with andrew johnson no longer viable to run for a term in his own right, he had gotten through impeachment barely. grant is the obvious choice. so he's a candidate. and these are the paintings that served as his posters. and note these campaign posters do not take them out of military uniform. they are there to remind people that he is the hero of the war, that he won the contest for the union. i think in a way there's a pattern

we know that lincoln experiments with various policies. he offers gradual, said emancipation to sort of a lower slaveholders back into the union with the promise that if they voluntarily free the slaves he will compensate them for the losses and colonize. the free people, he makes a series of appeals that we consider part of a long tradition of anti-slavery gradualism. the standard narrative is one in which lincoln comes around when he observes that events on the ground, most especially the massive resistance that gave slavery by the enslaved, the exodus from find some limitations to union lines, when he sees that the war itself and this activism and resistance by the enslaved is eroding destitution, that is offers to take them up on solutions are being rebuffed, and he comes around driven by a sort of pragmatic belief that the right move for saving the union is abolition. abolition is a means to saving the union and he then makes arguments on behalf of emancipation that are again pragmatic or based on military necessity, resistant norther

he had done webster, lincoln. where he was about to do lincoln. yes, like many capable painters, he flourished in the postwar, raged to have grant portraits for clubs and halls. veteran organizations. this is one of those portraits. i love it, because it really reflects grand's casual self confidence. hand and pocket. wearing a uniform. calmly and command as all of the portraits showed him. by the way, speaking of politics, you mentioned 1868 as the date has painting was completed, and there is a political story as well. three years after lincoln's death with andrew johnson -- to run for a term in his own right. -- impeachment, barely. grant is the obvious choice. he is a candidate. these are the paintings that services posters. note that these campaign posters do not take a matter of military uniform. they are there to remind people that he is the hero of the war. he won the contest in the union. by the way, why is he successful? i think in a way, there is a pattern to the way americans deal politically with war heroes. scott grant was the hero o

obliging abraham lincoln to have a look at it because grant had become so popular that it was that lincoln would be disrespecting not to look at it. yes, he had photographers and camp artists and he managed to maintain the homespun image very much like abraham lincoln, his commander-in-chief. depictions also served a purpose as reporters were concerned not only to elevate him but also to put him in the public eye politically. did images really have that power to do such a thing? harold: yes. think how successful abraham lincoln was as a presidential candidate when images of him as a rail splitter began circulating 1860. the grant victories early in the war and lincoln's inability to obtain control of the civil government in the emancipation proclamation encouraged his admirers to propose that he either replaced grant on the republican ticket or to be the democratic nominee since grant was not known to have any politics. he did not even vote in the 1860 presidential election. he was put forth as a potential candidate. lincoln would not entertain the idea of promoting him to lieutenant gener

since 1994, when c-span did its first big lincoln project, the lincoln-douglas debate, and we have worked on many things since. it is delightful to have you in this context. we will survey presidential history during our two programs with you, but i wanted to jump to the punchline. i'm guessing you were inspired to the subject matter by the current president, incumbent president, and all of the sparring he has been doing and the big criticism he has for the "fake news media." what is the punchline? is donald trump's relationship with the press the worst ever? harold: no. as much as i thought i would confirm my own suspicions as a citizen watching all of the chaotic briefings and press conferences and tweets that it was the most disputations, that i think it's a long tradition starting with adams and jefferson, until lincoln. certainly a complicated relationship with fdr. and nixon certainly had a worse relationship with the press, he just did not harp on a daily and did not have the technological means to harp on it without going out and confronting the press. this is presidential traditi

>> it was hard for lincoln. at some point they decide in the north the only way it could be one with that capacity to make war. and then to be sold and then i suspect that was a terrible byproduct. but even more people would die if he didn't. >> i was a one of a series of people who helped him on his memoirs and that's the best part. i went to the ranch and stayed with him while he was beginning to teach at harvard but just to listen to him recollect is to listen for hours because originally he was going to write a trilogy so a lot of our conversations were over his whole life. the story was so fantastically colorful even though i like listening to his tall tales. >> i wonder how doris kearns goodwin felt upon the publication as one of a dozen who aided in research and writing and editing. >> know there were far more and people working on that memoir they were doing it full-time and only on those two chapters but then you put down what he said in some form. i thought that was more than enough of a recommendation

huge fan of lincoln. my question is lincoln's ability to reach out to his political rivals and incorporate them into a larger scheme. would you comment on the seeming i am impossibility of na happening now? >> i think it would be harder how because now we have a permanent campaign. the minute a president is elected they're already thinking of the next term. in lincoln's day most previous presidents just had a term. and today i think they'd worry about giving a platform for their rival they would use against them in the following four years. the other thing, these guys were rivals of one another, not just of lincoln so they said terrible things. you'll see later in the book. and stanton and chase half the time weren't talking to pose master blare, can you imagine if we heard tonight the guys in the cabinet saying these things, unless you have a lincoln to hold it together. wish it would possible because what it meant was he had the different aspects of the republican party, moderates, conservatives, libera

can >> but why does lincoln appoint a major general in the union army. >> because lincoln did not want the war, to just be a war web west point trained soldiers, and he did it not wanted to be one of only republican generals. he made a point of recruiting democratic generals, unfortunately he put in butler so quickly, he had the high rank in the hierarchy of the military. which turned out to be a problem. >> he was a real character though, and he was very homely as you say, practically grotesque we have an image of him. and it's interesting, from rags to riches kind of life. a northerner who supported it all southern democrats, needless to say he was a provocative figure as you say, but what things exactly did he do to stir up controversy? >> as you say, he was not easy on the eyes. put simply. so he goes into the service, and he gets a commission and he runs up at fortress monroe in virginia, and one day as an african american rose up, one up skipper rowboat, comes to his headquarters taken to his headquarters, and he says i escape from slavery, and what protection of the army. now th

that was lincoln's notion. he tried it several times. >> he never got anywhere in congress, but when he was president of the united states, he still was enamored with it, and he had a famous meeting with african-american leaders in which he said, come to the white house, i want to talk to you. what did he actually say to them? >> what he said was, i need your support in this idea of colonizing parts of central america, that we would send the newly freed to central america and many of the african-americans, the notion of going outside the united states by choice was a debate within the african-american community. the notion of being told to leave really angered so many of the abolitionists. so people like frederick douglas were really offended and attacked lincoln when it became clear that his initial notion was send these people outside the united states. >> so for those who may not be expert on what frederick douglas did and who he was, he was a freed -- i guess he was a slave who had escaped, eventually he bo

lincoln proposes a plan in summer of 1863. and lincoln was hoping that he could get 10 percent of the confederate population to peel away from the confederacy and pledge allegiance to the union and that 10 percent could be a vanguard. the fact he chose 10 percent with the absence of support of the union in those confederate states and the potential of people of switching sides. and the true blue union are far between that are somewhat beleaguered and to wait a very long time. >> thank you for this fascinating conversation i will share my screen one more time to share a bunch of important link links. >> also going into the chat feature these are not clickable that going to the chat and they will be listed. >> and we only have a chance to offer two of them i will be happy to answer them by e-mail. >> if you are interested in buying the professors book this will not only help gilda but also to support independent bookstores once we and the webinar you will be sent to the link for a two minute survey please tell us how we are doin

that he actually have a bond with lincoln? did lincoln like meeting with him? >> there is debates around that. i think that initially, lincoln was concerned that douglas was so critical of his colonization standard. as lincoln is thinking about the emancipation proclamation, suddenly are talking about people like frederick douglass about how this this work? if not a champion, more supportive lincoln. there is this amazing scene near the end of lincoln's life where lincoln speaks said his second inaugural and douglas is there. he is trying to get into see lincoln. he's being stopped by some of the guards. lincoln sees and waves that him. and says come in friend douglas. i think that there was a relationship. i'm not sure it is as close as some people would like to -- >> after lincoln's assassination, his wife -- he gave his walking cane to douglas as a gift. >> mary, his widow gave a walking came to frederick douglass to symbolize which she thought was the bond between them. also to symbolize that lincoln was somebody who opened the door and led to the freedom o

he shows it to lincoln and has a talk with lincoln about this work. what was lincoln's response? harold: his initial response was, not my decision. let's walk over to the navy board tomorrow and show it to the sages of naval warfare. which they did. they showed it to the naval board and they all looked at lincoln for his queue and he looked at them and finally lincoln's immortal words, not his greatest oration but he said, "it reminds me of a story of a young woman who put on her stockings and she looked up and said, i think there is something in it." i don't know if they got this, you know, there is something in it. but they went to work immediately. ms. paley: they took that to be a yes. harold: that is a go. it is a good thing because the confederates are building the ship so they rush back to new york with the model and they get to work on the actual ship. ms. paley: let's put that image. the image that shows the launch of the monitor. built in myas mother's ancestral home of greenpoint. there is still an erickson park there. i mother went to the monitor school in 1921. it is

ultimately, abraham lincoln was totally silent on this. the governor was sort of friendly to the riders, because he called that my friends, but ultimately, lincoln authorized the deployment of, and this is going to sound eerily familiar again, the deployment of federal troops, who were dispatched from the gettysburg area north on trains, and they ultimately fired their weapons downtown, and that ended the rights. >> we have other images, one more image, of fires, there were lots of burning buildings under such rights. >> here's the army, facing off against the riders. i think the rioters here are a little better arms, to give you a sense of the chaos. we will never know the fatality rate. they say there were 120 deaths and 8000 injuries. that is a lot in 1863, when you do it as a portion of the population. but i don't believe the 120 figure. i don't think african americans who were pushed off the docks recounted, and people whose bodies were burned weren't counted, so i would say it was ten times as high as we have been led to believe. >>

is assassinated -- under lincoln andrew johnson was not exactly the same person as abraham lincoln. reconstruction led to jim crow laws, the ku klux klan, lynchings throughout the south and so forth. washington d.c., did not do that much about the federal government. it was hard to control by some southern members, who are not really that favorable to african americans. not until the civil rights revolution, in the 19 sixties, did washington get more interested in actually trying to get to change these things is that right? is that when it really came about, the late fifties late sixties when the civil rights revolution came along? the federal government officials said we had to do something to change the laws in this country? >> what you have, washington d.c., again, because have how the university was really at the forefront of demanding fairness in the 19 twenties, thirties, forties. it really was not that they waited until the 1960s, but the pressures on the federal government, the leadership of the civil rights movement did, the visibility that it received, utilizing the media

lincoln liked him and let him work there for six months. but while he was there, he made sketches of the family and he commissioned the famous photograph of lincoln and tad looking at this photograph we. no one ever corrected that impression that it looks like a bible. in 1865, lincoln of course dies. carpenter is still working on his emancipation engraving. the painting is done. he is pretty well-known so he goes to a new york engraver, j c derby, and he works with another publisher i to do a lincoln family. carpenters price is five and dollars, which is pretty good.

abraham lincoln married mary todd lincoln. mary todd, who was from lexington. and her family was very closely aligned with the clays. so her family knew the clays. lincoln came to kentucky several times in connection with the family in the states. and he certainly heard -- heard henry clay speak. whether they met is unknown. imagine what a great time it would have been had -- you have to think they tried to meet if nothing else. had lincoln come to ashland and the two of them sit here in the parlor and clay would say, you know, something to and mr. lincoln say and that reminds me of a story and go back and forth. lincoln never said he met clay. so i think that's very possibly he would have said that. he did say clay was his ideal of an ideal statesman. when he wrote his inaugural, he took four things with him in -- to write the inaugural with. one of those four items was henry clay's speech in the compromise of 1850. clay's effect on abraham lincoln was important during the douglas debates. lincoln said his views of the -- views of clay were his views of abraha