doris kearns goodwin earned a pulitzer for her book called "no ordinary time." her other book is "leadership in turbulent times." jon meecham was honored with a pulitzer for his andrew jackson book "american liar." his latest is titled "his truth is marching on, john lewis and the power of hope." jon meacham is advisor to president biden. jon, how would you characterize this moment? we do seem divided. what's your best summary? >> well, i hate to say it because of the way the decade turned out, but i think we're in the 1850s in america. i think you have a dedicated minority of the population. it was the cessationist, slave holding interest in the 1850s. today it was this vast swath of people who have found a home in the republican party who are no longer part of a coherent and constructive and good-intentioned conversation about the future of the country. and when you turn politics functionally into religion -- and i believe that's what's happened -- is you have your own holy books, you have your own prophets, your own path to salvation -- that is a terrible, te

with 30 grams of protein. >>> we are back with doris kearns goodwin and jon meacham. doris was talking about how the world can lead us to the better angels of ourselves or our darker impulses. the question i have that sort of relates to that, if leadership is so important, clearly donald trump is viewed by some very large part of the country as his leader. so much so that he dominates a party in a way that i can't recall any prior president in american history. the one that i think of is teddy roosevelt who so dominated the republican party that he left it and tried to, in effect, create his own party, the bull moose party. are there any other perils? what does it mean when a leader gets so powerful that he is more powerful than the party itself? >> i think partly it has to do with the nature of the media today, right? i mean, you had -- one of the scary things about the 1850s is you had a partisan media. so when lincoln goes to a debate with stephen douglas, the republican newspaper says, he did great, he was carried out on the shoulders of his supporters, and when a

shared the stories like doris kearns goodwin talks about hanging out with them in later years -- talk about evolution. i interviewed george w. bush a month ago. >> would the say about iraq? >> we didn't get into that too much but we did talk about immigration and his evolution in certain ways and we also talked about his view on january 6 and donald trump and some of those issues to. he got maybe involved in the public sphere. >> what did he say about liz cheney? >> that had not happened yet. the liz cheney thing had not happened when we talked. >> i don't think he was a big cheney guy in his second term. he definitely wasn't buddy buddy with him in the last four years. >> you think what we are seeing now this kind of come it's very controversial and a lot of people are seeing this public rehabilitation and obviously called him a war criminal but if that is that true to the person he was like in the early texas governor years? >> i like to thank everybody learns and everybody eventually people like o.j. simpson they think the same way today and do they believe he is innocent or were t

historians jon meacham and doris kearns goodwin join fareed for a loot state of america, tomorrow at 10:00. >>> jake woods' organization is now helping to vaccinate americans. his nonprofit team rubicon, you've heard of them, they normally respond to natural disasters. since covid hit, his group of military veterans has risen to the occasion. >> when covid first broke out, we immediately pivoted our organization to get our volunteers doing work like supporting food banks, delivering groceries directly to people's doorsteps, setting up covid testing sites, and most recently, supporting millions of vaccinations across the country in all 50 states. >> can i get your appointment time and last name? >> over the course of the last six months we've supported hundreds of sites across the country, doing the simple things like site setup and teardown, patient registration, optimizing patient flow, to help ensure that their doctors put shots in arms so they can just focus on what they do best. >> easy peasy. >> it's been a modern day wartime effort to get doses into the arms of americans. we're