it could be a w.e.b. du bois. it could be a hayek. it could be a leo strauss. our conversations are oftentimes intellectual, and we wrestle -- >> but are you saying you've expanded your reading list? >> well, no, no. we had read the texts together, but it's how we read them. it's how we read them, i think. >> you've said, both of you, that the unexamined life is constantly being unsettled. >> absolutely. >> and that this is the challenge in the course you teach to your students. your challenge to them is to unsettle their ideas so that they examine their assumptions. where has dr. west unsettled you? >> i'll tell you where. on issues of race. >> mm. >> my inclination prior to our deep engagement on these racial issues was to suppose that the fundamental problem is that people are race-conscious. they think of themselves as white or black, when race is really something ephemeral, something that, strictly speaking, doesn't even exist. it's a kind of artifact of culture. >> mm-hmm. mm-hmm. >> wouldn't it be better if we just were color-blind completely in all of o

it could be a w.e.b. du bois. it could be a hayek. it could be a leo strauss. our conversations are oftentimes intellectual, and we wrestle -- >> but are you saying you've expanded your reading list? >> well, no, no. we had read the texts together, but it's how we read them. it's how we read them, i think. >> you've said, both of you, that the unexamined life is constantly being unsettled. >> absolutely. >> and that this is the challenge in the course you teach to your students. your challenge to them is to unsettle their ideas so that they examine their assumptions. where has dr. west unsettled you? >> i'll tell you where. on issues of race. >> mm. >> my inclination prior to our deep engagement on these racial issues was to suppose that the fundamental problem is that people are race-consciou they think of themselves as white or black, when race is really something ephemeral, something that, strictly speaking, doesn't even exist. it's a kind of artifact of culture. >> mm-hmm. mm-hmm. >> wouldn't it be better if we just were color-blind completely in all of our

it could be a w.e.b. du bois. it could be a hayek. it could be a leo strauss. our conversations are oftentimes intellectual, and we wrestle -- >> but are you saying you've expanded your reading list? >> well, no, no. we h read the texts together, but it's how we read them. it's how we read them, i think. >> you've said, both of you, that the unexamined life is constantly being unsettled. >> absolutely. >> and that this is the challenge in the course you teach to your students. your challenge to them is to unsettle their ideas so that they examine their assumptions. where s dr. west unsettled you? >> i'll tell you where. on issues of race. >> mm. >> my inclination prior to our deep engagement on these racial issues was to suppose that the fundamental problem is that people are race-conscious. they think of themselves as white or black, when race is really something ephemeral, something that, strictly speaking, doesn't even exist. it's a kind of artifact of culture. >> mm-hmm. mm-hmm. >> wouldn't it be better if we just were color-blind completely in all of our d

it could be a w.e.b. du bois. it could be a hayek. it could be a leo strauss. our conversations are oftentimes intellectual, and we wrestle -- >> but are you saying you've expanded your reading list? >> well, no, no. we had read the texts together, but it's how we read them. it's how we read them, i think. >> you've said, both of you, that the unexamined life is constantly being unsettled. >> absolutely. >> and that this is the challenge in the course you teach to your students. your challenge to them is to unsettle their ideas so that they examine their assumptions. where has dr. west unsettled you? >> i'll tell you where. on issues of race. >> mm. >> my inclination prior to our deep engagement on these racial issues was to suppose that the fundamental problem is that people are race-conscious. they think of themselves as white or black, when race is really something ephemeral, something that, strictly speaking, doesn't even exist. it's a kind of artifact of culture. >> mm-hmm. mm-hmm. >> woun't it be better if we just were color-blind completely in all of our

>> i want to start off by saying my starting point was reading w.e.b. du bois, angela davis. i'm not the first person to talk about abolition and creating an abolition democracy. so my vision really came from them, the language they use. when you use the word abolition you talking about transformation. i'm not talking about modest reform. the beauty of understanding residential caste is once you understand it and its processes, the way forward becomes obvious. you just reverse those processes. the first thing i say is we need to change the relationship with states, with descendents from punitive to caring, change the lens in which we see them. there i say with love. but what you see descendents as three-dimensional human beings who are capable of agency and potential assets, it frees you up to focus on and identify evidence-based policies that actually might be cheaper than what we are doing, which is basically mass incarceration and over policing, and more effective. first you have to change the lands but it also say we need to reverse the processes here so inclusion rather