does russia need china more than china needs russia? question two, putin and xi have different views on their place in the international system. how does putin see russia and xi c china? over to you. 20 minutes. >> i would like to start by thanking the ambassadors, the staff at the atlantic council, everyone who helped put this paper together. i guess you could say this paper is my own personal rectification . i spent a lot of the last two decades trying to explain why the chinese have not been able to excessively transform a soviet style system into something that worked much better and the russians could not. i have not been able to anticipate what i called the xi change, where china seems to have changed its direction. it helped explain why it russia it needs china a lot more than china needs russia and why that xi/putin relationship is not so strong. the focus on the relationship is mostly emphasized military and diplomatic relationship at the top. that is important, but not the whole story. my emphasis is on the bottom up relations

the issue of tension between russia and ukraine or russia and nature. he believes that this is something that doesn't have to be, i mean, they can be so all of them those resources, those energies, read, directed to, you know, something that actually matters for the people. so be just speak very calmly and very clearly all the time. disney, when he's talking about these issues, and it's always impressive whether you like me to know, not the way he's able to talk at length while it's been a long period to experience all it knows. but in terms of just communicating the way he sees things, he seems to have a very clear picture and a lot of issues to the gas issue. for example, a lot of pressure, again from the west saying we believe that russia is done wrong, very calmly responds in the business like fashion. matter of fact, quo we're just, you know, fulfilling our obligations under the contract. you've asked us to fulfill. if you want more gas sign more contracts, that seems quite simple when you, i guess simply i think you can be hot tempered on certain

and in russia's, in russia's military ranks. of which she called me as a strategic football outpost. so after that, after 20147 years have passed, and the russia, despite all of its efforts, has not been able to change the calculus, change the equation in its favor in the ukraine. you're getting closer and closer to the west. so these acts like what we saw in april, which was a similar situation when the western western intelligence sources reported that russian troops were messing along. the crazy borders were sounding alarm bell alarms. and nothing happened. after that. geneva genevas talks between by them and in switzerland. all right, so. 1 let's get with him is using these pressure points to, to get some confessions is not interested in a full scale war in ukraine, which will be catastrophic for us. let's put some of that to lex, they had. and then russia last ukraine in 2014 your response that yes and also ukraine. why? because which is that neutral you create before 2014 majority of ukrainians believed in our french frien

who in russia. i mean, that's where they're supposed to be the, it's on the other hand, it's sending their soldiers out all the way across the ocean, 1000 miles and when are there, and then there and this year and you know, projecting is our course globally as well. yeah, but yeah, i mean it's, it's, it's a complete upset. yeah, i think about it that i ever, walter, i had to jump in here. we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our team. ah, ah, 100 mic. no shit, you know, borders a tease and you as a merge, we don't have authority. we told them that that whole world needs to be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great to response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with ah, it's update o

and russia. you know, sooner or later is simply go to act against regular cannot allow essentially, the very hostile, heavily stays on its borders and which basically is just the pool would base for nato and then russia, when i act and i think that's why the situation is dangerous. and i think that's why the rest of these do treaties are saying, well, you know, we need to de escalate what's going on in ukraine as we've agreed. and you know, it's unlikely that the major above will do anything about it, which case, i think it was crisis and ukraine could certainly come to ahead sometime in the new year. and i think that will be a disaster for everyone or the west. and will russia, but basically russia come up, allow this to continue because this is, there is an extra central, right? the russia, you know, it becomes, not. cynicism stinks, but i haven't because this has nothing really to do with nato, doesn't, i'm sorry, with ukraine, doesn't ukraine? is not really not particularly concerned, one way

it is also about russia. after the war last year, russia exploded turkey. so for ingres, normalization with armenia is a way to regain a seat at the table for the broader problems, restoration of regional trade and reopening of borders. so in that context, armenia is in a good position to counter the threat of isolation. >> matthew, russia is in a good position, but it does not mean the americans have a seat at the table. do they have relevance here? >> i was hinting at that before. i think u.s. relevancy has decreased dramatically since right before and during the war. the u.s. is still the u.s. and a member of the multilateral working group called the minsk group. but the role in that organization remains to be seen. the basics of the conflict have been settled militarily and there is a need for negotiation and a comprehensive peace agreement and an agreement to demarcate the borders. and russia was able to insert in a communique to say the parties will begin negotiations and form working groups and russia will help them. so russia stepped in with a 2000

russia has hardened its position. now is it going to be softer because it knows it has more power under this agreement or is it going to get harder? >> russia the way it sees it cannot go anywhere. the issue of ukraine is seen as an existential threat. if american weapons are in ukraine, that is considered unacceptable. they are not going to enter any pressure on this area. the first rule of economic sanctions, if it is too harsh, the one who sections builder without you. that is what we see with russia and china. that is what this summit was about. they are seeking a new economic architecture and that will have three pillars. the first is the industries in which they are seeking preparation, high-tech industries, in order not to be reliant on american digital platforms. also for the russians, not to be dependent on exporting energy to the europeans. the second pillar would be the transportation corridor stared -- corridor was. -- corridors. russia is more modest but also developing his arctic corridor in partnership

president, this is bbc russia. over the last year, alexander's organizations have been declared extremist organizations and he himself is in prison after accusing seven people from russian security services of poisoning him. what happened, what changed in russia that the number of those declared extremists and foreign agent has increased so drastically? you often speak about history. and i am sure you know history well. and the last time power was concentrated with no real opposition, and when russia was in stark opposition to the west, it led to a counter reaction, it led to wars and revolutions for the country. do you think it is possible that you are now laying the foundation for such a situation? president putin: now, talking about history, i would like to remind you what our opponents said for centuries. you cannot defeat russia. you can only instigate a collapse from within. that was what was said during world war i, following world war i and in the 1990's when the soviet union collapsed. they did it from wit

and we can go to them with russia. it's a special partnership. we can never abandon them in our exclusive interview, or a correspondent the kremlin spokesperson treat your pesca also talked about tomorrow's call at between the russian leader and his american count for he sees it comes amid some fairly aggressive rhetoric against moscow. sydney digital can we are preparing for the video conference to morrow. president, putin and president biden will be having a talk. this is a very complicated movement for the talks. the rhetoric coming from the u. s. and e u leaders sounds pretty aggressive. we, she plenty of fake news about russia allegedly planning an aggressive invasion. at the same time, no one talks to key if no one wants key of against even thinking of military intervention in the dynette can lugens conflict. and given the complicated background of us russian relations, it will be a difficult talk for the leaders. now we see that nato demonstrates it's extremely aggressive position. we see mr. stoughton bugs, rhe

president, this is bbc russia. organizations have been declared extremist organizations and he himself is in prison after accusing seven people from russian security services of threatening him. what happened, what changed in russia that the number of those declared extremist by foreign agents have increased so drastically? you often speak about history. i am sure you know history well. and the last time, power was concentrated with no real opposition and russia was in opposition to the west a lead to a counter reaction good a lead to war and revolutions for the country. do you think that is possible that you are now laying the foundation for such a situation. now, talking about history i would like to remind you what our opponent said for centuries. you cannot defeat russia. you can only instigate a collapse from within. that was what was said during world war i, following world war i and in the 1990's when the soviet union collapsed. they did it from within good it was an implosion. who did that? those that were

whoa, russia believes that ukraine as well as there were rules, are part of the old greatest star, russia, and that they should not join western alliances because in the n n a, the ship re unite with russia proper to a greater russia puts in, wrote about that the simplest published this summer, and i know that not only put in but many in the russian ruling, we believe that this so, but there are also some kind of some very concrete security concerns. and by puts in personally, because it's an old idea from the, from the time of the euro. miss, our crisis of the eighty's and american pershing to massage were deployed. and land based cruise massage were deployed in europe. that the west, the united states are planning, decapitating 1st book to destroy the russian political, military leadership. and so that the russian military can be organ well organized for a reply attack. and that's what he was talking about of these minutes of how quickly the missiles can reach mars, who it means he's talking about himself that he may be taught. he's the main target . and that's what the russian general

russia can and will do. it is bringing back the unfortunate reality of the situation that we have to deal with russia operating on that premise and it views certain things as national security and will take steps to advance and ensure its own security. again, understanding the framework with which policymakers may be viewing the situation and potential dialogue with russia, you engage with adversaries and negotiate with dialogue not because you trust them. you come to agreements because you don't trust them and you make clear lines and standard understandings because you don't understand them. you want to lock them into certain agreements and codes of conduct that have clearly defined standards of accessible conduct and what will violate that. it is not trusting an adversary but engaging with them to come to that for make of understanding to hopefully standardize and de-escalate potential areas of conflict and reduce the propensity or the possibility of escalation where russia believes we are acting accordin

food in russia. i mean, that's where they're supposed to be. the, on the other hand, is sending their soldiers all the way across the ocean, thousands of miles and when are there, and then there and this year. and you know, projecting is our lead as well in your area. but yeah, i mean it's, it's a complete a concern. think about that. right? yeah. well, do i have the jump in here? we have to go to a hard break that for that hard break. we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with ah the pinnacle of evolution, everything's a bacteria, is a product to 4000000000 years of evolution. it's in a specific environment. so a week. so in that sense where we are a few survivors at the end of a long, long process you. so as in to the springs at yellowstone, we will not do very well. bacteria will do much better. back breaking toil, forced labor stress industrial injury. corporal punishment. oh no. words with which we're all familiar. are you certain that the world you live in? abolish slavery long ago wit

full out, both among putting loyalists in russia and in russia's, in russia's military ranks of which you see me as a strategic football outpost. so after that, after 20147 years have passed, and the russia, despite all of its efforts, has not been able to change the calculus, changed the equation in its favor and ukraine. ukraine is getting closer and closer to the west. so these acts like what we saw in april, which was a similar situation when the western western intelligence sources reported that russian troops were amassing along you crazy borders were sounding alarm bell alarms and nothing happened after that. geneva. so after the geneva talks between biden puts in, in switzerland. all right, so let's. 1 get which in is using these pressure points to, to get some concessions is not interested in a full scale war in ukraine, which will be catastrophic for rush. let's put some of that to national ukraine. why? because which is decked neutral. you create before 2014 majority of ukrainians believed in our french friendship and partnership with russia. supporters of natal, when, when

let me ask you, maxine, i mean, what in russia for russia, from russia's perspective, what would a pan european security structure look like? because the russians have offered it over the last 20 years, a number of times. can you explain? can you explain to where we were, what a leon security would look like? oh, absolutely. i think 1st and foremost, it would be your duty or russia. happily it would be your orders respectful of russia, national interest and security concerns, and that extending nature to most soviet state outside the whole case ukraine, georgia, and more and others in particular are the, obviously some of the red lines and must always and will have all looking at them as for anything other than that to be moscow in again, negotiated and to be goes, you just don't pretend that these things don't matter. but if you're looking at it and again hearing loss, i see there's a lot of the sense that whatever you do or some medical or kids might interest medication. but also that could be the case that the american political has lost strategic force 5, any indeed. and their inte

, belongs to russia, etcetera. so the concern is that he is actually as a legacy project seeking to reconstitute the soviet union and then, you know, would his appetite be fulfilled with that eating or would he seek to go further? so i think this is why the unity here in the senate, unity in the house, unity within the united states, unity in ukraine, unity with our nato allies and partners and the significant consequences that we're talking about are so important and making clear that we are absolutely ready there. i also think it's important to talk to the russian people as i have said to you before and have said to this committee. nobody wants or needs war at this moment least of all the people of russia, who deserve better schools, better hospitals, better infrastructure, better health care, and that's where the wealth of that great country ought to be going, not on sending their boys to freeze on the ukrainian front. thanks >> i agree. i just want to close by emphasizing the simple, forceful clarity with which

and russia. you know, sooner or later is simply going to act against regular, cannot allow essentially, the very hostile, heavily stays on its borders and which basically is just the pool would base for nato and then russia will act. and i think that's why the situation is dangerous. and i think that's why it rushes forward. these do treaties are saying, well, you know, we need to de escalate what's going on in ukraine as we've agreed. it's unlikely that the major above will do anything about it, which case, i think it was crisis and ukraine could certainly come to ahead sometime in the new year. and i think that will be a disaster for everyone or the west and will russia. but basically russia come out, allow this to continue because this is, there is an existential right. the russian, you know, it becomes, not that cynicism stinks, but i haven't because this has nothing really to do with nato, doesn't i'm sorry, with ukraine, doesn't ukraine is not really dental's not particularly concerned. one

and russia. you know, sooner or later is simply go to act against the regular channels allow, essentially, the very hostile, heavily stays on its borders and which basically is just the poor, would base for nato and then russia will act. and i think that's why the situation is dangerous. and i think that's why the rest of the full of these 2 treaties are saying, well, you know, we need to de escalate what's going on in ukraine as we've agreed. as you know, it's unlikely that the major basel do anything about it, which case, i think this crisis and ukraine could certainly come to ahead sometime in the new year. and i think that will be a disaster for everyone or the west and will russia. but basically, russia cannot allow this to continue because this is, there is an existential right. the rush or not isn't stinks, but i haven't because this has nothing really to do with nato, doesn't i'm sorry with ukraine, doesn't ukraine is not really not particularly concerned. one way or another is the ukrain

that is an emanating from russia. but it's something that is, has actually been triggered by nato, despite the warnings that have come from us. because they say, well, the days of spiritual influence over russia, no, no, right. to speak of implant once a week. i mean it's moving into georgia, ukraine. i know when is the north atlantic treaty organization and they've got them moving at them happily in their way into a central asia. so we're getting all of this rhetorical excesses from they do. and it's glen pointed out when push comes to show and they have to justify themselves to the west of the public as a well, we only have sanctions in mind. we're not actually going to go to war because it was the western public isn't going to tolerate with russia. you know, quick thing. this argument if made doesn't expand the means, granting russia their influence. we hear this over and over again in such as a meaning, it's a chest exclusive influence. so if you expand nato, that's us tool for fears of influence. russia saying no

, russia, in russia. i mean, that's where they're supposed to be the, it's on the other hand, it's sending their soldiers out all the way across the ocean, thousands of miles and when are there another m a here and you know, projecting is our course globally as well. yeah, but yeah, i mean it's, it's, it's a complete upstream. yeah. think about it that i ever, walter, i had the jump in here. we have to go to a hard break that for that hard break. we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our team. ah, ah 100 mic no, no borders and just like to tease and you as a merge we don't have with the we don't on the back seat. the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people are judgment. 2 common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great to which funds has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together

struck coney and sanctions on russia, a russia out of the swift financial transaction system. and what will just be for the east and out of the west altogether. i think there's a calculation of that. the problem that they do has is that if indeed such a scenario plays out, they don't will be shown to them a tight yet, because nato will, it is. what is, what is it, it's done is an issue also guarantees that was really just pay for point money, right? you know, the baltic states were under the impression that they were being given actual money . the actual guarantees of security. the suddenly he got are going to be realizing in the way, does anyone really believe nato's ready to go to war, to nuclear war, fall stony or police away here? well actually, i mean, you know and song, so that was, i think the name to blah, which is what is been going on. these is empty guarantees that has been issuing like so much candy will be shown to be absolutely ridiculous because they don't know they isn't going to be able to go on behalf of these tiny stage as on is going to have to stop backtra

then they sanctioned russia. and then russia says, well, zalinski and ukraine, they're not following the men sca court. i mean, my, my question is because russia seems to be open for dialogue almost all the time, but it always gets almost like a knee jerk reaction from his professional partners in the west. how much patients she think moscow has left. not much patience because again, that does not forget that james baker said there were at the, at the end of the year. so i bet nato powers are not a one inch eastward. and we see now that the database is, are all around a former eastern european countries. and i think most question got it is in it's right. saying that we, you lie to us once. you are provoked war, a civil unrest in a country which borders ours, where we have legitimate digital bit heritage or the easter eastern europe and a lot a lot of eastern ukraine. and a lot of people in ukraine consider themselves as russian where they are russian speakers. so this is i, of course, i totally agree that the u.

is more at about ukraine but about the russian border between russia and nato, and that russia wants to have a secure situation where there are no threatening western militaries or weapons or anything, and russia should have the right to have a kind of veto on nato expansion or deployment, even in countries that are already nato members after 1997. it is more than ukraine, but ukraine, of course, is the focus point. that is a sure thing. >> the russian defense minister says u.s. private military companies are plotting provocation using unknown chemical components. how do you see that statement, the background of the conflict. >> this is just cynical propaganda to give a pretext for an invasion. this is by far the most dangerous situation militarily we have seen in europe over the past three decades. i agree with the founder of the silverado accelerator that all sides .2 putin actually preparing to launch an invasion with a tactical endgame of establishing a public state in eastern ukraine and creating language to crimea, but a more strategic endgame, and a russian colleague alluded t

because for russia, the loan of the principles, their goal. at the end of the day, we cover 2 major topic to ukraine and serbia and, and as far as the west concerned, they don't care about either as long as it's only a defeat for russia. that's is their money. that's very colonial, isn't it? i gentlemen, that's all the time we have on, i think my guess in budapest and in the us on, i think our viewers are watching us here in our t. c. and it's, i'm remember across ah, ah, a wrong one. i just don't with howard dean because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will depart. we choose to look for common ground. oh, driven by dreamer shapes bankers are those with who dares sinks? we dare to ask. is it no, no, no, no, no, no, but they just did a valuable thing by high middle now i own my head up my lap and i had a knuckle buckling. my, well, i'm bob again thought now along a bit a well, i mean a relationship with sonya here long. i've been with who bought ah, with an except anybody's red lines is the message from

basically said russia means business. russia are a serious, nice thing nate has refused to discuss why it's carrying us. it's activities close to russia's border. he says russia wants to be heard, and he wants to work with nato. but he says, as far as rushes concerned, rush, his own security is, of course, the most important thing you said russia is always being told in its view by ne, to and by western countries, what he should do, what it shouldn't do. not frankly, it sounds like you said that what russia had to say today was heard. but of course, there were very strong words coming out today when he also said the real headline that came out. but, you know, the echo of war could be heard within europe may be in the foreseeable future. the got got a lot of people's ears pricked up to get the talking. remember that phrase not was more jo, jo. well, let's go across talking to joe joe. peter, all over your correspondent, yet peter, all over. when that headline came out earlier on, it did make everybody is pre kept in there, but just let's why did pocket. but what were the positives that

russia as you prefer. an old eurasian dream of putin, which is a different dream from the european one. ukraine is in the middle of that. it is the first target. a country which is our ally, which is our rampart, who already spread and spilled so much blood for the values of europe and of the west. we have the moral duty to be at his side. i would like to add we have maybe more important than the moral duty, the political duty to do so. political duty. because if in the next weeks or days or hours, the russians happened to invade, in the remotest part of russia, and protects that everyplace in the area where you have russian -- belong to russia, it is a real pandora's box which will be open for all europe. thereafter, there will be planes in spain by the catalans. what about belgium? what about switzerland? not to speak, i don't know even parts of america where you speak of united states, where you speak spanish and so on. if the west excepts the tip of the finger in this narrative of putin, in this so-cal

now russia go ahead. 30 isolated. well, because the geopolitical forces have very dramatically deteriorated for the west of there is china and china, russia, and now on the sunny strategic allies. so any conflict that's going to take place in europe. good. that could very well be a 2nd from opening up by china. john, is that it will help russia anyway. and therefore, you know, they'll be, they'll be a conflict over taiwan. and then what exactly is the was going to do? and so it's a huge gap stopping humiliation for the last. so it's a very serious think. hands on that. no. because i think it's correctly. i want to take my guess in london in budapest are be worth watching. iraq, you see an ex family member. ah, ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation, community? are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallo

and maxine, i mean, what in russia for russia, from russia's perspective, what would a pan european security structure look like? because the russians have offered it over the last 20 years, a number of times. can you explain? can you explain to where we were, what a leon security would look like? absolutely. i think 1st and foremost, that would be your order that went into russia heavenly and would be your orders respectful of russia, national interest and security concerns. and that extending nature to most soviet state holdings, ukraine, georgia, in another room in particular, are the, obviously some of the red lines and must always and will have all looking at them as spoken in the anything that is, i think moscow can again negotiated. it's open to be just some protera that these things don't matter. but if you're looking at it and again hearing loss, i see there's a lot of sense that whatever you do or some medical or could you monitor interest medication. but also that could be the case that the american political has lost strategic force 5 any each indeed, and their interest to me too

-russia dialogue. it is to put pressure and yes it is preoccupied with china and blocking the nord stream 2 in the strategic stability and other crucial shoes. -- crucial issues. recently there have been -- on what the u.s. should do to address this growing russian belligerence and pressure. those discussions are on ukraine policymaking and in civil society and the messages here. russia hearing from washington that no discussions will take place about ukraine without ukraine and that ukraine will not be pushed into some kind of confession under pressure to advance with russia. this is a very important signal that other states might have based on their historical experience of being left out of the great power conversations about their fate. it has been quite worrisome that some of the arguments heard recently are advocating not to provoke russia. ukraine's security interest, desire not to undermine ukraine's security. the engagement and the fact that it will never meet russia's interest in ukraine. i w

so is russia angry? know she's not rush is not angry, she is focusing on something mature so you can take care a seat. now, i will try to be really brief switched. but i would like to start from the very beginning because the escalation started back in 2014. and before that, despite natasha, just by the fact that the soviet union collapses, that interest you and doing historical watch and lance with the recall the russian populations were not part was all french anymore. and ukraine, 1st of all, so we accepted this and we facilitated, we help we, the new states to grow and we work with all the governments no matter why the foreign policy a national machine has had to get some use. and just remember our relations with president fusion cohen prime minister. it was too much in code just like today's leadership of ukraine. be speaking about absolutely pro wesley orientation. we've talked with them. yes, we hadn't certain arguments about gas. we had certain conflicts, but we managed to engage in a dialect and

i found taishan, alyssa, of russia. what this is the linchpin will of our country when i'm william defeats and in other countries. when we look at other countries, we see a deficit issue. we'll see a lack of that kind of understanding of that kind of respect. we don't want to implant that in russia. all the restrictions should be, are inside of humor. for example, city when we have 2 of the representatives of all of our net force come together, a gutless throw its full and make a list of rules. and you so that to organize so that their word should be organized in a way that li poles lives are not affected in a negative way. so that would have protected the youth. the young people there were about to say she was that's how we must do it better of the brush. i now for the final question that had pleased to gone directly to aladdin and fled image get our printed mixture pohden as the city of lead you middle id, which is a good afternoon. we're in for my guest. i'm from my information agency. sputnik my did not get a questi

here in this country, new delhi is ready to invest up to a $1000000000.00 in russia and in russia's far east. in particular, this is of course, something that is raising quite a few eyebrows in the west. and if we're talking this crucial military cooperation, frayed in arms and weapons, and there's a special program that outlines plans for a 10 year period. the previous one has just expired. and i can tell you that moscow and india have signed and new on which is going to be valid until 2031. and yes, india has agreed to assemble the famous russian collage stick of guns, too. now, in our correspondence exclusive interview kremlin spokesperson dmitri pess cove also spoke about tuesdays upcoming call between the russian president and his american counterpart. he said it comes amid some fairly aggressive rhetoric against moscow. video confidence ish has her nose. we are preparing for the video conference tomorrow. president putin and president biden will happen to order. this is a very complicated time to a rhetoric coming from the u. s. and e. u leaders sounds pretty aggressive, yet. we s

destabilizing russia itself. putin has a long list of a grievances they disagreed what we did in iraq and they disagreed with what we did in libya. a long string of abuses that soured the relationship and the challenge now and i would like -- i think would be interesting to hear your view, we found so far in our relations with russia from where it was in the blessed administration where we did not consider missile defense against russia strategic systems in any way. maybe given that relationship we need to think about whether we want a capability against russian strategic nuclear weapons and increasingly things like sm3 missile deployment the ships and the like, we are developing limited capability. i still think it's not significant russians can overwhelm my numbers if not by technology but you really have a different russia today and you have to ask in terms of ballistic missile defense, do we really want to the systems off-limits in terms of ballistic missile defense? it's a very different question than what w

so russia still have a debt, as russia still has a debt mechanism with the west, that is going to be a problem. no. well, it's a gradual process, but the dollar has always been the key party but, but now you're a great when the date when they're reduced their lives and the dollar. it also entailed in creating the use of the euro. and also more and more the use of domestic currency. and obviously that's also the china and russia would like to go to increased use of domestic currencies and therefore not just simply replace the us dollar with the euro. but again, it is a process. i'm not saying it has come a long way over the past 56 years. and i don't like the idea that this is only about the values. i think. i think it's a strongest representation against russia. x live relations with south korea, japan, india, israel. the made, the common denominator is nato, its military block expanding upon its borders and already we are, we are sorry, good, you know, running i was having to do when i come to david phillips, wife heard from all 3 of you is very entrenched positions when it comes to

the presidents of china and russia. she didn't ping and vladimir putin spoke for more than an hour on wednesday, hailing their close ties. voltaire, the wall has undergone unprecedented changes and a pandemic in the last entry sign a rotten relations. how we do the terse, a verse storms as low as the deep historical traditions of friendship and a mutual understanding have allowed us to take our relations to the next breakthrough level. trade between china and russia exceeded 115000000000 dollars this year. a new high, the leaders pledge to increase corporation on energy paging already relies on moscow from much of its minerals, oil, and natural gas plants underway for nuclear power stations. they're also coordinating on efforts to further space exploration and scientific innovation. chinese analysts say the relationship is now stronger than it's ever been, they'll, milan was ads or as, as the 2 countries support each other in their core interests. for example, when it comes to china's core interests, those are territori

now these realities, this is something russia is no longer going check. it will a provided security whether they were and their west wants it or not. but i want to how does it live tv thing, post cold war security arrangement? is it still viable? when you go back in the, in the ninety's, there was no longer the cold war. in the ninety's, there were no need to the european union were stretching out their hand to rusher and all of that. you know, for me. so republics. and there are agreements to wear on cooperation and then so there was not this contradiction. and it, we came back into the conversation with president putin, when he took off it. and there are no creek is there's nothing in there is the tricky where it was said that nato cannot expand beyond if you, if you specific issues ought to be have to do with the drum unit cation and, and now there's one thing that i would like to highlight, because it said that, you know, nato is reaching out to, to ukraine. and when one of the major fights chance america had with president bush junior, was in 2008, t

and what about russia? ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess when decent in oslo. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book . great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow we have maxine schwarzkopf. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. gentlemen, cross up rules and effect, that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate it again. let's go to glen 1st here. you know, glen where does, where does your stand right now? because, you know, it's 30 years after the cold war. we still have nato, but we have a lot of the cold war agreements like on missiles and defense and things like that are either been thought or being reassessed, but this isn't the cold war here. nato is not interested in, in negotiating missile treaties or not interested in pan european security arrangements. i mean, it seems to me from an outsider, l

today, the foreign minister in russia is, i know, every day ambassador, you make it sound as if a russia, as you said, invaded the ukraine because it had nothing to do. but you know that the security situation in your crane, i was very intimately connected to russia, security interest and would have passed. memorandum is not the only document that it was broken and russia is not the only side that broke a previous arrangement. there were many promises given to russia with regards to nato enlargement after the cold war. they were also many promises given to russia by the german, many of the german politicians who are pretty open about it in that memo or that the berlin wall will not be moved to the virtual girl in will not be moved ever closer to russia. but this is one of the things that i also wanted to ask you about, because i'm sure in the korean conflict, this is something that you will have to deal with a lot. once you come to the chairmanship of the minute security conference, you were one of the architects of dimansky graham and unit gosh, 8. and on behalf of germany on behalf of

relations, russia reset. and that was in reaction to a very active engagement by the bush administration in the south caucuses. so the u . s. a sorta, sorta by choice withdrawn from the south caucasus not entirely, but it seemed a diplomatic territory to, to turkey, to russia as well as the u. s. may well have seated influence from the south caucuses, but actually it's still a pretty big player in turkey, still has the intellect airbase that the turks, however, did by russian air defense systems, which angered the u. s. is this is one got to has to do with another, is this normalization of relations with armenia, a gift to the u. s. and saying that we are doing some of the things you want us to do. just don't take away a defense system on turkey, the amount of perspective towards the goal are in line with the work and the work and the us and must provide the anytime approach or the normalization piece in the region. and we're more than that. and this is again, can just change the wider it's served the america

but the error of russia must do this. russia must do that. russia being dictated to ease ease, over at the nebulous motor. this is not an attempt to revise. the post code will order. it is a response to western expansion which has been conducted in a hostile manner. unfortunately, there isn't much cause for optimism so far. the russian foreign ministry says its proposals have been rejected who are being rejected. i am by nato states by the 2 countries. the european union, and here the problem is that both sides voiced these opinion that things much changed, that we want better relations. but every practical step taken to improve those relations to take steps to deescalate how their met with unfortunately, the russian se rejection or a crossing live to geo political analyst a pierre emmanuel tillman joining us ally from brussels as good to see you today. russia was negotiations with nato. it's setting out its terms apparently, what would be your expectations? where perhaps would you expect western powers to engage in talks and perhaps try to deescalate matters when. fortunately, i think

and you can understand why russia's, of course concern, i mean, russia has a long border will ukraine, and that's why, ah, russia has as taken steps as well on to, to demonstrate to the west and to, and to nato that look, this has to stop, you know, you can't keep, ah, you can't keep essentially promoting or murderer provoking russia by carrying out so many military exercises on russia's border. you know, it, walter is when i look it's going on here again, this is a, we saw a repetition of this from spring here. but when the more i look at these scenarios that could be played out here though, there's one country that loses in every single scenario. and it's ukraine and i, and is we've already reiterated here, you know, nato is not really talking about a military response here. so, i mean, if, if something were to happen and there was a conflict between russian ukraine, ukraine is going to be the obvious loser here. is that what they want is it is, does that justify to nato, that rushes of the threats there been telling us here, it seems to me that's one of the outcomes that they're ac

let's get more on this from russia. watcher, russia analyst and author ma mccauley as quickly come on the line to night from shropshire. hello sir, thanks for being on with us. first off, it brings to mind for many people, what could the same kind of thing that happened was 2018 where then it was 3 ukrainian naval ships headed towards that area. busy and the russia took them into cut the time. she said that was a provocation. no indication that this is the same thing tonight. maybe it's lost as a said, maybe it's radio is broken. so we don't really know how far in this is, but less than 20 nautical miles from such controversial border is a bit of a headache, isn't it? which thinks actually happening tonight? 2 versions here. one is that this vehicle is doing it deliberately. good control and they know where they're going and so on. the radio is working, so i'm not listening to any russian border control. the other version is that they have lost the navigation and direction that they are not sure where they are. the radio production is working and they are in fact, proceeding towards a

relations, russia reset. and that was in reaction to a very active engagement by the bush administration in the south caucuses. so the u . s. a sorta, sorta by choice withdrawn from the south caucasus not entirely, but it seated diplomatic territory to, to turkey, to russia as well as the u. s. may well have seated influence from the south caucuses, but actually it's still a pretty big player in turkey, still has the intellect airbase that the turks, however, did by russian air defense systems, which angered the u. s. is this is one got to has to do with another, is this normalization of relations with armenia, a gift to the u. s. and saying that we are doing some of the things you want us to do. just don't take away a defense system on turkey, the amount of perspective towards the goals are likely to work in the work and us and must provide the anytime at their approach with the normalization piece in the region. and we're more than that. and this is again, can just change the wider it's served the american

not that nato thinks much of russia's concerns. not long ago, secretary general stockton berg announced that russia has no veto, no sane nato operations and no right to any sort of security. buffalo sphere of influence. nato has proven over the last years that her, our open door policy is not only something we are supported in words, bottles in deeds potter by inviting to new countries. montenegrin north m madonna to become a member. so we have enlarged the line so that all spheres for to new members, despite protests from, from russia. and also we are supporting ukraine in ukraine's efforts to a con, closer to natal membership, which sets us back all the way to square one at the nebulous motor. this is not an attempt to revise the post cold war order. it's a response to western expansion which has been conducted in a hostile manner. the gist of that proposal that, that the u. s. nato and russia have a requirement for security as essential as food or water that they must all equally respect. nato has received the proposals and says

when was the last time russia tag to anyone? if people need to back up this claim with arguments and how many times have need a countries at texas her in states, in the last 20 years, how many special operations were carried out by the nato countries. can you show me something in close to that from the russian side? now, there is nothing you need to figure out where there are facts and where there's propaganda was unfold, so that andrew pharma spoke at length earlier this week with formal austrian foreign minister current council. she outlined ways which she believes could help overcome the current political deadlock between moscow in the west. ah, yes, we are in a stalemate. no doubt about that. but in such a stalemate, it takes people with some sort of creativity. that's what diplomacy is about. international relations and not only about self impaired digna's, of national security interests and so on. at the moment we have bass, i saying russia saying, look, we've got grave security concerns about nato. we have eastern europea

ever closer to russia's borders. and despite those verbal assurances, nader proceeded enlarging itself with 5 different waves, open lodgement, and right now we're going to saying that enough is enough. we need to ensure our security is not a matter of principle for us. it's a matter of an existing existential concern. and this is what russia who intends to do whether or not the west james is acceptable. i mean, he was no negative. i mean people obviously very where he was going on. i think we tired of this topic already. i mean, have been yeah, but he has rush is put forward proposals, isn't it? and he was positive in the sense that he was saying we are going through ongoing negotiations now with the us. and he said something about perhaps talks in the new year. how long is russia prepared to wait? she think, well, russia has their that's the beauty of it. thrashing is not waiting. what the problem is essentially saying is whether or not you agree to that. we will proceed and do what we deem necessary for ensuring ou