do you trust mark meadows to tell the truth? >> mark meadows if he put his hand on the bible and said he would tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i would be inclined to believe that. i don't think he is the most credible out of all the witnesses. you asked me a fair question moments ago. i would want to look at it closely and it would be a close call if cipollone and mark meadows says why, i am absolutely believing cipollone. i think a lot of folks are. mark seems to have gone through very dark period and was apparently according to cassidy detached from the job i don't know if he was having some sort of event where he could not engage. but i think mark is in a really strange place and my guess is if he testifies and he may be compelled to testify because he is under, he is not under criminal indictment yet but has been referred, i think he will take the fifth amendment more often than not. >> you think mark meadows betrayed the country with what we know now about his actions around january 6? >> that case

but i cannot explain mark meadows in my own mind. why is this guy the garden-variety birther tea party congressman from north carolina? he's not a ted cruz sort of styles itself as a 1776 revolutionary? he's just some guy who becomes chief of staff. why is he willing to risk jail? i mean, he got 1 million dollars from his pac from the slush fund. 1 million dollars ain't worth lying for the president of the united states for fomenting his coup. >> it is also different from every other chief of staff right? john kelly couldn't hide his discust with trump. and reince priebus couldn't get out of the oval office fast enough. without breaking speed records in the west wing. what meadows does is he breaks bad -- somewhere between all the fraud were bill barr's words bullshit let's stay in power for more years meadows breaks bad. >> i've said this before at this very table but i have to say it again. there is this weird suspension of disbelief guilelessness to all of this. do eugene scalia, usually a pretty smart guy, secretary of labor like

what about mark meadows? do you know if mark meadows knew what was going on at the willard hotel, and do you have any insights into the claims we've heard from the committee that he was interested in atepiding that meeting? >> i don't know. personally. again, when mark meadows took over as chief of staff, i left the west wing probably three weeks later. so, i was gone and i was very much removed. but, again, knowing the way the president worked, knowing the way the west wing worked -- this is just mark meadows, as chief of staff, needs to know those things going on for so many reasons. i can't imagine he wouldn't be aware and i can't imagine the president wouldn't have told him to go there. >> final question. do you recall ever hearing any conversations or discussions around connections to extremist groups, the proud boys, the oath keepers? we're going to see those links explored in the next hearing. does that ring true to you at all? do you know anything about it? >> i don't know anything about it. with rega

where is mark meadows? >> that donation has raised a lot of eyebrows, but what mark meadows is trying no to cooperate where the committee after basically providing the committee a roadmap. the hundreds of text messages he turned over to the committee are not all the text messages that he has as we understand it to be, but it's a huge volume that allowed them to really understand basically week by week and in some cases, day by day and minute by minute, what was happen nging in the days af november 3rd and the days after january 6th. they would have a much harder task without that. >> thanks very much. here to talk more about cassidy hutchinson is a witness in the ongoing attempt now to attack her including from the former president. jeffrey toobin and denver wriggleman. congressman, i want to get to the next steps of the committee in a moment, but you heard cheney speak strongly last night. i want to play another moment from her speech. >> at this moment, we are confronting a domestic threat that we have ne

mark meadows. hutchinson revealed that her boss asked for a pardon following the events of january six. meadows has since denied asking for the pardon, but we should make this important note, cassidy hutchinson testified to that under oath. mark meadows has not. let's discuss this with cynthia alksne, a former federal prosecutor in the civil rights division of the justice department and glenn kirschner, also a former prosecutor. luckily for us, they are both msnbc legal analysts. it's good to have both of you with us. you have been helping us near the ship through all the hearings. cynthia, i'd like to start with you. your top line reaction to cassidy hutchinson's testimony and what it means for the committee as it goes forward. >> let me say this about her testimony, besides being a bombshell for all the reasons that we will disc length, it also highlighted why the department of justice needs to get involved. there is all this evidence about conspiracy, and i know we will talk about that. let me h

mark meadows. meadows' spokesperson, however is denying he or anyone in his camp ever tried to intimidate or shape her testimony. all right. that's a lot to go through. let's turn to a former trump insider for her take, alyssa farah griffin. until december 2020, she was the white house communications director under president trump. and alyssa, you were also friends with cassidy hutchinson. thank you for being here. >> thank you, sara, for having me. >> we've talked about this before. you worked directly with former president trump's chief of staff, mark meadows. from your experience with him, would it be uncharacteristic of him to try to do something like this? he's being accused of someone in his camp trying to intimidate a witness in this testimony, that witness, obviously your friend, cassidy hutchinson. >> listen, the mark meadows of maybe half a decade ago when i first worked for him, this would be unheard of. but the mark meadows that i think began to come out when he was in the west wing and

where is mark meadows? >> that donation has raised a lot of eyebrows, in terms of what the point of it was, and we still don't know what the answer is. but where mark meadows is, trying not to cooperate where t with the committee after basically providing the committee a road map. the hundreds of text messages he turned over to the committee are not all the text messages that he has as we understand it to be, but it's a huge volume that allowed them to really understand basically week by week and in some cases, day by day and minute by minute, what was happening in the days after november 3rd and the days leading up to january 6th. they would have a much harder task without that. >> thanks, maggie, very much. here to talk more about cassidy hutchinson as a witness in the ongoing attempt now to attack her including from the former president. jeffrey toobin and denver wriggleman. congressman, i want to get to the next steps of the committee in a moment, but first, you heard vice chair cheney speak strongly ag

this clip about mark meadows today points to mark meadows's state of mind, his intentions behind what he was doing in a way that might prove to be a problem for him if he ever faces criminal charges in this matter. >> during this period, he -- i perceived his goal and all of this to keep trump in office. you know, he had very seriously deeply considered that allegations of fraud, but when he began acknowledging that maybe there wasn't enough fraud to overturn the election, and i witnessed him start to explore potential constitutional loopholes more extensively which were connected to john eastman's theory. >> the white house chief of staff mark meadows seriously deeply consider allegations, basically found there was nothing to them, and instead he turned to trying to find constitutional loopholes to keep trump in power anyway. that is, i know he lost, i am going to try to keep him in power anyway, knowing that he lost. that moment was not a criminal referral of mark meadows to the justice department, but the investigators are handing the justice department basically both of the lego p

this clip about mark meadows today points to mark meadows's state of mind, his intentions behind what he was doing in a way that might prove to be a problem for him if he ever faces criminal charges in this matter. >> during this period, he -- i perceived his goal with all of this to keep trump in office. you know, he had very seriously deeply considered that allegations of voter fraud, but when he began acknowledging that maybe there wasn't enough voter fraud to overturn the election, and i witnessed him start to explore potential constitutional loopholes more extensively which were connected to john eastman's theory. >> the white house chief of staff mark meadows seriously deeply consider allegations, basically found there was nothing to them, and instead he turned to trying to find constitutional loopholes to keep trump in power anyway. that is, i know he lost, i am going to try to keep him in power anyway, knowing that he lost. that moment was not a criminal referral of mark meadows to the justice department, but the investigators are handing the justice department basically both

how could mark meadows be the fall guy when all that i just showed you was trump's doing? >> mark meadows can only become the fall guy if the department of justice lets him become the fall guy. should he be charged for his crimes, absolutely, but does that mean the department of justice should stop at mark meadows? absolutely not. donald trump is the hub, of the hub and spoke conspiracy that i've been talking about, including on your show for a very long time. donald trump is the hub for which all of these criminal spokes raidated. you know, we heard about this battle royal in the oval office with team normal. the folks that passed for adult in the trump administration and the crazies, the kwannion people, the powles and giulianis and you got the sense from listening to the evidence that everyone in the room knew that there was absolutely no evidence supporting these absurd claims of election fraud. none of it mattered to donald trump because at the end of the day it was by any means necessary. he was going to retain power, so in the early morning hours at the conclusion o

and mark meadows on january 5. ? >> i am under the question that mr. mentos didam under the imprt mr. meadows completed both called to them on the evening of the fifth. rep. cheney: do you know what they talked about that evening? ms. hutchinson: not sure. rep. cheney: -- war room at the willard hotel? ms. hutchinson: i was aware of that. rep. cheney: do you know mr. meadows ever intended to go to the hotel on that night? ms. hutchinson: he had a conversation with me where he wanted to work with the secret service -- with mr. giuliani in the associates in the war room. rep. cheney: what was your view on that on whether mr. meadows should go or not? ms. hutchinson: i made it clear to him that i don't think it was a smart idea for him to go to the hotel. i was unsure on everything that was going on their although i knew enough that -- on everything mr. giuliani and his associates were pushing during this period. i did not think it was appropriate for the white house chief of staff to attend or involved in that. i made

at 3:31 pm on january six, sean hannity of fox news taxi mark meadows. mr. hannity said, quote, can he make a statement. i saw the tweet. ask people to peacefully leave the capitol. later that evening, mr. hannity sent another text message to mark meadows. this time, he shared a link to a tweet. that tweet reported that president trump's cabinet secretaries were considering invoking the 25th amendment to remove president trump from office. as you can see on the screen, the 25th amendment to the constitution creates a process for the transition of power, if the president is unfit or unable to serve. the 25th amendment has never been used to remove a president, but the committee has learned that after the attack on the u.s. capitol, this is being discussed by members of president trump's cabinet as a way of stripping the full power of the presidency from donald trump. president trump supporters were worried, in addition to the tweet he sent mark meadows at the attack, sean hannity apparently spoke with president trump and warned him about what could happen. we

mark meadows. meadows' spokesperson, however, is denying he or anyone in his camp ever tried to intimidate or shape her testimony. all right. that's a lot to go through. let's turn to a former trump insider for her take, alyssa farah griffin. until december 2020, she was the white house communications director under president trump. and alyssa, you were also friends with cassidy hutchinson. thank you for being here. >> thank you, sara, for having me. >> we've talked about this before. you worked directly with former president trump's chief of staff, mark meadows. from your experience with him, would it be uncharacteristic of him to try to do something like this? he's being accused of someone in his camp trying to intimidate a witness in this testimony, that witness, obviously your friend, cassidy hutchinson. >> listen, the mark meadows of maybe half a decade ago when i first worked for him, this would be unheard of. but the mark meadows that i think began to come out when he was in the west wing an

how does mark meadows continue to float out there? >> don't go anywhere. >>> former oath keepers former spokesman and witness jason van tonight move joins me next. we'll be right back. n n tonight move joins meturned frog of the possibilities ahead. ♪♪ where your dad waited for his dad to come home from the factory. we'll be right back. ancestry can guide you to family discoveries in the 1950 census. see what you can uncover at ancestry. announcer: type 2 diabetes? discover the power of 3 in the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. announcer: ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or y

we know from the reporting that mark meadows in many ways was the donald trump enabler in all of this. we know that he was warned of violence before january 6. we know a multiple times we know that before january 6 he met with rudy giuliani and after that meeting hutchinson went in to speak with meadows and said things might get real, real bad. she said that he asked for a pardon but he disputes that. i would say that she said this under oath. and so, we know that he also let the president speak with some conspiracy theorists and that when trump told him to call michael flynn and roger stone he did. he wlistened to the president from. in terms of this we would have to say that he was the man closest to the president on this and did nothing to kind of stop what the president sbintended t do which is go to the capitol. >> good point. hutchinson was told and quoting from liz cheney do the right thing going in for the deposition. what red flags potentially does that raise? >> the statute requires an attempt to influence. this is a very easy case to prosecute. we follow the text messages a

but it's clearly mark meadows. this shouldn't surprise anybody where this is being pointed to now. >> do you think from the mark meadows that you know, that he would be capable of doing something like -- >> without question. >> intimidate a witness. >> without question. john baner in the book talks about a story of an unnamed member of congress that everyone knows is mark meadows. that literally got on his knees in the speakers office and said i beg you to forgive me. that's mark meadows. >> peak travel season arrived in the u.s. with the fourth of july holiday weekend. airlines and passengers bracing for chaos. and cnn report, the blame game well under way. >> millions of passengers are descending on airports along with summer storms putting short staffed airlines to their biggest test in years. the tsa screened 2.4 million passengers at u.s. airports on thursday. just shy of a new pandemic era record. >> it feels more like 2019 than the prior two years. >> with more problems for passengers. 3.5% of all flights th

the conversation with mark meadows on january 6th where mark meadows, you know, through ms. hutchinson's testimony doesn't think they're doing anything wrong he's there. he's part of that conversation. so he is -- we're talking about whether he's adding new information and i'm sure that will be significant but just confirming some of the things that have been said that put him in the room, i think have just enormous political consequences. look, is it going to crater donald trump's support? no. there is no information that's going to do that but is all of this i think lowering the ceiling on his potential support, lowering the ceiling on the number of americans that can trust him with the power of the presidency again? i do think. >> maybe it's raising the fatigue factor. i want to listen whands of things and how often, frankly, we've heard pat cipollone's name and all these conversations. listen to this. >> i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the riders have gotten to the capitol, mark, we need to go see the president now and mark looked up at him ask sa

and nowadays, the mark meadows of the world. they talk about how these guys have a lot of criminal exposure, and look at what they did. to a certain extent, they have a point, however bad faith it is in. these guys do have a lot of potential criminal exposure, and when it comes to mark meadows, when it comes to what the department of justice and or the january 6th committee on capitol hill are looking into. it's actually more multifaceted than they are letting on right now when it comes to what is going on in public. we reported at rolling stone today that the january 6th committee has been grilling multiple witnesses, but mark meadows is financing. his financial agreements and secret arrangements for other trump advisers as it pertained to trying to overturn the 2020 election. witnesses came away from this with the clear impression that investigators on the committee were looking for clues, and or evidence of illegality or misconduct. and so there you have it, his problems could be even deeper than what is publicly revealing at

but as a spokesperson for mark meadows is denying that telling us in a statement, quote, no one from meadows camp himself or otherwise has ever attempted to intimidate or shake myths hutchinson's testimony to the committee. this new development is now sparking reaction among mark meadows's former colleagues on capitol hill. take a listen to congresswoman madeleine dean's reaction here. >> the text message or phone calls, whatever communication from somebody connected to the former president to somebody who is going to be offering witness testimony, is extremely troubling. i know as a lawyer, the only thing number one you wouldn't interfere with somebody testifying with a possible adverse consequence to you. but number two, the only thing if your effort caught talking to somebody would be, just tell the truth. that is all you have to do. you don't say, do the right thing and he will be reading depositions. he will be reading transcripts. very strange, very intimidating. >> and committee members are calling this witness tampering. they are saying this is a form of obstructing justice t

that mark meadows revoked the ability to let anyone in the white house again. >> mark meadows office revoked my guest privileges. i could no longer get people into the complex after that. >> you can get people into the complex after you sneak them in. thinking anyone in, let alone those people. mark meadows lost control. number two, noticed this as we pull the third. notice that january 6th guy who led the coup, steve bannon, makes you wonder if the aide went broke or was acting for his boss at the time? we did press mr. navarro about this. notice this, the normally loud trump warrior suddenly went quiet. saying, no, or knowledge about all of that. >> was it run for your age a facility that meeting and to plan the military? >> i have no comment on that. i have no knowledge of that. he was working off the reservation. it was not in my direction. >> was that a bad idea or wrong to pursue the military to seize the voting machines? >> that, that, that, i would like to get more to the bottom of that. that is not something that i would've put forward by any stretch of the imagination. >> e

tweet criticizing vice president pence. >> mark meadows, chief of staff mark meadows. well, trump's former deputy press secretary, sarah matthews, is also going to testify on thursday. remember, she already testified to this. >> the situation was already bad. and so it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that. >> and matthew pottinger, that former deputy national security advisor, he testified that he resigned because of that tweet. >> that's where i knew that i was leaving that day, once i read that tweet. >> i am wondering what other holes pottinger might be able to fill in now that we don't have access by thursday, secret service text messages. what else can you tell us about what was happening in the rooms, in the hallways? maybe you can speak to trump's alleged failure to call up the national guard. this is from jonathan karl's book "the trail" where he says pottinger could see trump wasn't there. he was still in his private dining room watching television while the capitol was being ransacked by his supporters. chief of staff mark meadows ru

cipollone also testified that the presidents chief of staff, mark meadows, said he shared this view. >> as early as that november 23rd meeting you understand this discussion about the president possibly conceding the election, and, specifically we understand that mark meadows assured both you and the attorney general barr that the president would eventually agree to a graceful exit. do you remember, mr. meadows, making such aspirations? >> are you saying is part of that meeting or several? in that meeting, i am not sure, but i would say that is a statement that i heard from mark meadows. >> and, again, do you know if it was on november 23rd at some point? >> again, i think it was probably, you know, around that time. it was probably subsequent to that time. it was not a onetime statement. >> mr. meadows has refused to testify and the committee is in litigation with him. many other white house officials share the view that once the litigation ended and the electoral college math, the election was over. here is president trump's former press secretary. >> i wanted to clarify, miss mcen

and i think one of the big gaps here, don, we don't know when he was telling mark meadows because mark meadows ultimately refused to testify. he was very useful in terms of turning over his emails that have become quite incriminating, but, you know, all we have here is hearsay about what was headed said during by the president during -- . cipollone can't say what his conversation was with the president because he has a privilege issue. so, he talked around it. it would really be useful to know what people said to him precisely about what was going on and what he told them and that's a little hazy here, i don't know, i'm not a lawyer, i say with some pride. [laughs] but i would say that's a necessary ingredient here. >> mark meadows is really the missing man, here as david, said he did momentarily cooperate in turn over those thousands of tax some of them very damning. the text of republican luminaries across the spectrum begging, him you have to get in, there you have to condemn this. >> there is no official record of what the president was doing. >> exactly, and the guy who could fill

and nowadays, the mark meadows of the world. they talk about how these guys have a lot of criminal exposure, and look at what they did. to a certain extent, they have a point, however bad faith it is in. these guys do have a lot of potential criminal exposure, and when it comes to mark meadows when it comes to what the department of justice and or the january 6th committee on capitol hill are looking into. it's actually more multifaceted than they are letting on right now when it comes to what is going on in public. we reported at rolling stone today that the january 6th committee has been grilling multiple witnesses, but mark meadows is financing. his financial agreements and secret arrangements for other trump advisers as it pertained to trying to overturn the 2020 election. witnesses came away from this clear impression that investigators on the committee were looking for clues, and or evidence of illegality or misconduct. and so there you have it, his problems could be even deeper than what he is publicly revealing at this p

vice president pence. >> mark meadows, as and chief of staff mark meadows. trump's former deputy press secretary sarah matthews is also going to testify on thursday, apparently. remember, she already testified to this. >> the situation was already bad, and so, it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that. >> and matthew pottinger, that former deputy national security visor, he testified that he resigned because of that tweet. >> that is where i knew i was leaving that day, one cyber in that tweet. >> i am wondering what other holds pottinger might be able to fill in. we want to have access by thursday, secret service text messages, but what else can you tell us about what was happening in those hallways? maybe you can speak to trump's alleged failures to call up the national guard. this is from jonathan carl's book, called the trail. he says pottinger could see trump was not there. he was still in his private dining room watching television while the capital was being ransacked by his supporters. after several minutes, chief of staff mar

mark meadows, through his spokesperson ben williamson said they denied that meadows or anyone in his orbit made any attempt to influence hutchinson or her testimony, but this is something the committee is keeping a close eye on. there's a report in the new york times this week that outlines how any of these witnesses, their lawyers are being paid for by organizations with close ties to the former president. the committee is going to work very hard to make sure there's no undue influence in this testimony. they view that to be a veers problem. keep in mind, if they find direct evidence that witnesses were targeted and sbim kated with the express purpose of not telling the truth, that could lead to a crime. >> kplexcellent reporting. joining us now, the author of a book to end the presidency, the power of impeachment. thanks for all your important work over the years. you heard that new reporting from ryan nobles on capitol hill. what is this new avenue, potential witness tampering actually mean for the investigation both for the committee and potentially for the department of justice?

you also singled out mark meadows role in this. this -- washington post said over the phone, his phone records taking for review. you say that the doj could flip meadows in order to get him to turn on donald trump. that's the kind of language that we heard during the mueller investigation, in relation to paul manafort, michael flynn. but crime would mark meadows be charged with, or not charged with, as part of any kind of deal to get him to flip? >> so i think one of the ways in which he is very criminally exposed, the very crimes that carol leonnig just outlined out herself. basically hand-in-hand with president trump, he ran points on some of these issues for the fake electors. he ran points on trying to influence pence as well. and so the issue is that, he has even greater exposure, in some senses more than trump, because there is also evidence in the record from the january six committee, that meadows knew trump had lost. he said that to bill barr. bill barr said he told me. you know trump will come around because he understand

you also singled out mark meadows role in this. this -- report it over the phone records taken for review. you say that the doj could flip meadows in order to get him to turn on donald trump. that's the kind of line is that we heard during the mueller investigation, in relation to paul manafort, michael flynn. but crime would mark meadows be charged with, or not charged with, as part of any kind of deal to get him to flip? >> so i think one of the worries in which he is very criminally exposed, the very crimes that carol leonnig just lined out herself. basically hand-in-hand with president trump, he ran points on some of these issues for the fake electors. he ran points on trying to influence pence as well. and so the issue is that, he has very greater exposure, in some senses and trump, because there is also evidence in the record from the january six committee, that meadows knew trump had lost. he said that to bill barr. bill barr said he told me. you know trump will come around because he understands that he lost. meadows knew.

in response, today, mark meadows released this statement: "no comment." ( laughter ) now, compare mark meadows' breathtaking cowardice to that of his assistant, testifying today, cassidy hutchinson, age 25! who's testifying despite multiple threats of violence, to tell the american people the truth. well, she can add all this to her resume: "crisis management, excellent recall, bigger balls than mark meadows." ( cheers and applause ) ♪ ♪ ♪ meadows may not have any balls, but he's got some nerve. >> ms. hutchinson, did white house chief of staff mark meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6th? >> mr. meadows did seek that pardon, yes, ma'am. >> stephen: the president's own chief of staff wanted a "get out of jail free" card. but he didn't get it, so hopefully soon, he will not pass "go," not collect $200, and go directly to jail. ( cheers and applause ) also-- also-- ( cheers and applause ) ♪ ♪ ♪ also, in comparison to ms. hutchinson's courage, the committee played some footage of their interview with disgraced form

including his chief of staff mark meadows and white house counsel. we will begin to examine evidence bearing on what president trump and members of the white house staff knew about the prospect for violence on 6. januaryeven before the violence began. to best communicate the information the committee has gathered, we will follow the practice of our recent hearings. playing videotaped testimony from ms. hutchinson and others. and also posing questions live. i yield back. >> thank you very much. our witness today is miss cassie hutchinson who served in the trump administration, in the white house office of legislative affairs from 2020. and as a special assistant to the president's white house chief of staff office from march 2020 through january 2021. i will now swear in our witness. the witness will please stand and raise her right hand. do you swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank you. you may be seated. the witness answered in the affirmative. i now recogn

that's from mark short's testimony. so meadows has a lot of exposure for the core crimes. the justice department says we strike a deal with you. you flip and cooperate with us or provide you immunity and you cooperate with us. and give us everything you know about presidentan trump, the principal on all of these schemes. >> and how significant is it, in your view, two pence aides, mark short and greg jacob recently testified to a grand jury, two highest known white house officials to do so? >> i think it's incredibly significant. it means the investigators are going straight into the white house. according to "the wall street journal" reporting andth corroborated now with the washington post, thell question theob prosecutor are asking and asked specifically of jacob and short is about, for example, this january 4th meeting with president trump. that's theua meeting where trums only lawyer to tell him the plan was legal in the meeting concedes it is illegal for pence to carry out this scheme. and that's what the prosecutors are asking these two very senior white house offic

now mark meadows through his spokesperson, ben williamson said to cnn they emphatically denied that meadows or anyone in his orbit made any attempt to influence hutchinson or her testimony, but this is something that the committee is keeping a close eye on. there's a report in the new york times this week that outlines how any of these witnesses, coming before the january 6th committee, their lawyers are being paid for by organizations with close ties to the former president. the committee has to work very hard to make sure there is no undue influence in this testimony. they view that to be a serious problem. and of course, keep in mind, wolf, if they find direct evidence that witnesses were targeted and intimidated with the express purpose of not telling the truth, well, that could lead to a crime. wolf? >> excellent new reporting, ryan nobles, thank you very, very much. joining us now, the author of a book to end the presidency, the power of impeachment. there you see the cover. professor tribe, thank you so much for joining us. thanks for all your important work over the years. you heard

the conversation with mark meadows on jan 6 where mark meadows through hutchinson's testimony says he does not think he is doing anything wrong, he is there. he is -- we are talking about adding new information that will be significant but just confirming some of the things that already have been said that put him in the room. i think i just have enormous political consequences. is it going to crater trump support? no information that will do it. is it lowering the ceiling on the number of americans that can trust him with the power of precedency again. i think it will. >> maybe raising the fatigue factor as well. i want to listen as what kinds of things and how often we have heard his name in all of these conversations, listen to this. >> and i remember pat saying to him, something to the fact of, the rioters have gotten to the capitol, mark, we need to go down and see the president, now. mark looked up and said, he does not want to do anything, pat. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they are literally calling for the vice president

what did you say to mark meadows that day? what did you say to other important white house personnel? if he said the same thing he said to cassidy hutchinson, we're committing every crime imaginable, that's enormously important. the other thing i would point out, if there comes a day where the justice department comes around with a subpoena, then you're not going to be able to hide. then you're going to have to go into a grand jury and testify. might as well do it now and give the american people the information that we need. >> i want to switch gears just a little bit because there have been so many just, i mean, just incredible decisions coming out of the supreme court. i want to ask you about the supreme court agreeing to take up a case that could have steep repercussions for 2024, at issue is a legal theory that would give state legislatures complete authority to set the rules for federal elections without supervision by the state courts or state constitutions. elie, what do you think the potential impact of that could be,

meadows so intermediary clearly can be liable, and if you can prove they started with mark meadows, which is hardered to do because he's a step removed, he could be responsible legally as well. >> david, you don't know mark meadows but do know how donald trump operates and his pattern of behavior, often using intermediaries to intimidate or influence others, heard about others like michael cohen talked about this often. how has he been able to get away with this for so long, even aside from connecting him with the intimidation suggested here? >> well he's been remarkably successful in avoiding accountability, kate. donald uses lots of different strategies. when he was in business, would tear up his calendar at the end of the months, bragged, once, i don't use email because judges know that's really smart, you don't leave a record of wrong-doing. he often operates through intermediaries and often, as eli pointed out, not to prevent someone from testifying but to shape their testimony, to encourage them to frame it in a way that's helpful to him, and there are numerous well-documented

it was mark meadows, hutchinson's old boss. a spokesman for meadows denies this. but a new piece from the washington post chronicles the long and well documented history of the use of exactly this kind of intimidation behavior towards witnesses from trump world. the report reads, quote, the reports from multiple states of federal and -- investigations points to similar pattern. trump and his close allies privately showered witnesses were flattery and attention, extending vegas shown says that staying loyal to trump would be better than crossing him. in case anyone forgot, witness tampering is in fact illegal, which is why if the text messages hutchinson are proved to have been sent from any of the ex presidents coons, there could be far reaching implications. let's kick things off with better which of someone, she is a political correspondent for politico and contributor msnbc, betsy, good morning to you, it has been quite a week. a lot of information to digest, but it is not just the testimony that we heard at the hearing on tuesday, it is everything that has com

new questions about the cooperation of mark meadows and congressman jamie raskin on the agreement to begin the transfer of evidence to the department of justice. and how build back better took a sudden detour down the country roads of west virginia. >> joe manchin caved. >> the manchin. betrayal >> obviously a double crossed by joe manchin. >> he flip-flopped like a catfish. senator brian schatz on how manchin saved us all. >> this bill would be the most significant legislation in history to tackle the climate crisis. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes well the dominoes continues to fall and ongoing investigation into generous. mick mulvaney, who held several positions in trump's administration, including chief of, staff testified before the general six committee. during his time as chief of staff, mulvaney played a key role in the ex presidents corrupt plot to hijack american foreign policy, as part of the quid pro quo bribe to aid his campaign by manufacturing dirt on his opponents. that was of course the subject of donald trump's first impeachm

>> mark meadows should come and say that under oath to the committee. because until he does that, until he matches hutchinson's testimony under oath, this is just another statement from someone who has been a little bit frivolous with the truth in the past. you know, these statements, when you look at them, the reported threats, and i think they're very clearly threats that are made to cassidy hutchinson, they read like scenes from a part of the "godfather" franchise. these are the things, when you've agreed to testify and you're involved in organized crime. this isn't a friendly communication, it's a very clear threat that's been issued. the real question is how long it will take the justice department to open an investigation and begin looking at this. doj has to take witness intimidation very seriously, because what we do as prosecutors, our ultimate goal is to figure out what the truth is so we can decide whether crimes have been committed and people need to be held accountable. if you have folks who are trying to keep witnesses from testifying, eve

the miss pearson believed she mentioned this to mark meadows on this january 2nd call. notably, january 2nd is the same day on which, according to cassidy hutchinson, mr. meadows warned her things might get real, real bad on january 6th. after her january 2nd call with mr. meadows, she sent an email to fellow rally organizers. wrote potus expectations are to have something intimate at the ellipse and call on everyone to march to the capitol. the president's own document suggests the president had decided to call on his supporters to go to the capitol on january 6th. but that he chose not to widely announce it until his speech that morning. the committee has obtained this draft updated -- undated tweet from the national archives, includes a stamp stating president has seen. the draft tweet reads, i will be making a big speech at 10:00 a.m. on january 6th at the ellipse south of the white house. please arrive early. massive crowds expected. march to the capitol after. stop the steal. although the tweet was never sent, rally organizers were discussing and preparing for the

astepro and go. >> what's the deal with donald trump's chief of staff mark meadows? we know he's subpoenaed by the january six committee, back in september of 2020. 12 months, later and, november chairman bennie dumbed soon announced that he was gonna cooperate with the committee. he handed over approximately 9000 pages of records, including text messages leading up to the january 6th attack. and, then all of a sudden, following, month metal stopped cooperating with the, committee refused to give deposition. that month, the house -- department of justice that the department of justice held a contempt, to charge, and the way they did with bannon. we now know from the washington post who spoke to two people familiar with the matter, that in april of this, your, quote justice department vested gaiters received phone records of key officials and aides in the trump administration, including his former chief of staff, mark meadows. and then last, month the doj announced they are not charging meadows for contempt. so, what is going on here? could it be that mark meadows is

debunks the lies from the former president and mark meadows? what would be the process for a president to actually order it, order troops in? >> sure. a president, at anytime, could order the national guard to be activated as such. the very reluctant to do that, though, particularly we have the law, rules of engagement that happen to be very clearly defined. you can't just given an order and say carried out. you have to have rules in place at some point along the chain of command. dealing with the district -- of columbia is different. it's not a state, it does not have a governor. you would have, basically, the mayor of the city making a request that would go to the joint forces headquarters in d. c., of the national guard, who would reported to the secretary of the. army it's complicated because under the existing structure, the president is the commander-in-chief. he's delegated authority of the national guard to the secretary of the army, the secretary of defense, rather, then delegated to the secretary of the army. a very complicated. all b

also, with regard to mark meadows, mark meadows he mangan plussed when she said there are weapons out there. where he doesn't want to go to the capitol, doesn't want to do anything. it suggests or prior conversations. he had a call the night before with rudy giuliani and roger stone. what happened there? what happened in that car when she kept trying to open the door to give him an urgent message and he kept closing it? there are things he knows that are not yet in the public domain, and i think that she has shed light on those other witnesses that the justice department will very much want to talk to. >> so, pat cipollone, he's going to talk to them in some fashion later this week. he's a lawyer, he knows well enough that he should do that. what happens? does he, generally speaking, will he cooperate what's she said? assuming what cassidy hutchison said was true and pat cipollone can corroborate that. does he become a more principle witness? when you said she's a bridge witness, it's cipollone more important of the process if he is able to corroborate which he said? >> yes. he was th

the general milley did hear from mark meadows. the contrast between that call and his calls with vice president pence tell you everything you need to know about president trump's dereliction of duty. let us listen. >> he said, this is from memory, he said, we have to kill the narrative that the vice president is making all the decisions. we need to establish the narrative that, you know, that the president is still in charge and that things are steady or stable, or words to that effect. i interpreted that as politics, politics, politics, red flag for me personally, no action. but i remember distinctly, and -- yes i don't do political narratives. >> so while president trump and his advisers were drained, other leaders upheld their oaths to do the right thing. maybe it was exhausting to get the president to put out that video, but think about the law enforcement officers who were attacked by the mob that day. and president trump had summoned thumb himself to washington. and what about president trump? he watched tv, tweeted, called

possibly from mark meadows, under oath. get used to this, we are now at the leaping stage of the federal criminal investigation of donald trump. we don't know how long the justice department has been focusing the criminal investigation on donald trump, but in washington wednesday start putting witnesses in front of a grand jury, the leaping begins. that's what happened when vice president mike pence's chief of staff mark short, was seen by abc news at the courthouse on friday. abc news wasn't the first to report on monday, that marc short testified to the grand jury about january 6th. on friday. and then last night, carol landing and a team of reporters at the washington post broke the news that most of the grand jury questions, that marc short was asked, were about donald trump. and that is when we knew, that donald trump is the subject of a federal criminal grand jury investigation. last, night andrew weizmann told us that donald trump is really what he called a subject plus, meaning he's a subject who is probably on his

could someone like trump, or even mark meadows be at risk? >> absolutely. if this order came from high, whoever gave it could be charged with a crime of soliciting a crime. so that is your way of working up the stray chain is always your strategy here, figuring out how high this goes. witness tampering in and of itself is a serious crime, it is a 20-year felony and a serious crime because it -- people like rudy giuliani dismissed it as a, quote, mayor process crime. but this is the very essence of how the criminal justice system works. we rely on people to tell us the truth, to be able to prove cases. if people lie, or intimidate other people to lie, then the whole system falls apart. so for that reason, prosecutors and judges take witness tampering very seriously. >> yeah, but, barb, trump was notorious about not keeping a paper trail, right? he didn't text, he didn't use email, can the prosecution or investigation at this point look for evidence that is circumstantial in nature, this idea of the insinuation of -- it would be unfortunate if something happe