mike pence is a 40. from the get-go, donald trump had him because he knew he could take advantage of him. to be the vice president, you are supposed to be the guy who can step up when things go bad in the white house. donald trump actually tried to hurt his vice president. there is no way that they were running around, trying to get him somewhere to be safe so that he could come back in there and do his job of the constitution for the electoral votes. we have the committee, they have already been putting things together. that donald trump sent his vote to stay in office. all we need to do to get the department of justice's start laying the law down and taking names and subpoenas. and getting these guys locked up. because of that had been barack obama trying to do that, there is no way in the world y'all would not have had him in jail, he would have been in jail a long time ago, we have two systems and the justice system, they white justice and the black justice. we should all be the same, we are all amer

acta the mike pence thing. i think he would be a weak candidate in the old song about the press nominating the candidate. it is the one they cover and that is the one we are considering. you had on a wonderful republican. he had been in the lobby. from oklahoma, such a marvelous person. ben sasse from nebraska. it is a shame that some of these remarkable republicans aren't more in the forefront. they are probably too smart to run. just to wind up, i think we should have a new law that we should not even talk about the next candidate until we are eight months from the day. the minute someone is elected, we are talking about the next fella. it would be so wonderful if we heard more about remarkable republicans such as mark mcmullen. i don't even know the man but he was so good on your show. host: next we have philip on the republican mine from michigan. caller: pence 2024. when i can get around to it. host: sorry you are breaking up. we will get to connecticut, paul. caller: paul from plymouth. thank god we don't

pence that mike than karen pence. >> we all know how mike feels about karen pence. and your piece about mike pence and yahoo news, you -- trump advisor keeping tabs on tans who set of the former vice president quote, they are very strategic about when he pops his head up. his path to the white house, if he has one, and the it argues that he does not, it's to do exactly what he has been doing. what do you think that aid meant by that? what is mike pence doing right now? and as you have a chance of being the 2024 republican nominee? i think like i have more of a chance of being the gop presidential nominee than mike pence. >> i mean, the field is open. you might as well. [laughs] nobody is as sure as hell as anybody. >> as it goes with pence, yeah, he does have a chance. but you know, the tension here for him in particular, how does he address this? and you know, another thing that happened today is that they release the title and the cover of this both as going to be coming out, on november 15th. you know, it's about the oath of office, so help me god. it hints at th

donald trump tried to have mike pence hung and mike pence today, the only distinction he made was trump looks a little more at the past and i'm going to look a little more to the future. somebody in the audience asked mike pence a question directly. are there any differences between you and donald trump? and the man who tried to have him hung, mike pence really didn't say there were many differences. this is trump's party and it will remain that way until pence has the courage to stand up. >> beyond pence, dave, as we look ahead to 2024 match-ups, is that not the question? policy aside. maybe there won't be many policies difference. either with trump or against trump. >> yeah. what mike pence is doing is building a strategy out of necessity here. he is interesting in running for the republican nomination in 2024. and he knows he has a bit of a market share problem because of the swath of the party that remains committed to donald trump and donald trump's lie about the 2020 election being illegitimate and rigged and stolen. so those folks are not really open, it seems, to a make pence, a

what did donald trump say to mike pence? and those are questions asked in a very serious and formal environment of a grand jury. a grand jury that is preparing as part of a criminal investigation for the possibility of charging people with crimes. >> so, carroll, in your pc described two tracks of investigation in your report. attract leading to potential's seditious his verse each arduous and in obstruction of an official proceeding on the one hand and another related to fraud regarding the fake electoral scheme. do we know which tracked the justice department's gather more infamous evidence and information, and is leading predicting one way or no they're, can we tell from that question? >> there are three different offices burrowing into the specific tracks. i don't know the answer to your question, i sure wish i did. but i am imagine they are steaming full steam ahead on all of these tracks and obviously, based on the grand jury witnesses who were brought in, the fake electors piece is perhaps further along than any other

the new mike pence. so i'm just trying to figure this out. i do not think they do agree on policy, and if donald trump and mike pence run against each other, i am sure trump will draw the contrast. he will talk about how mike pence wants to cut medicare. he will say things like that, even if it's true. he will say things like. that he will also talk about trade differences. he wants free trade, trump's for protectionism. i don't think they agree. and for mike pence to stand up there and say, we agree on everything except that thing that happened on january 6th. even though they tried to hang the, hey, i'm still good with them. i mean, how does that work? >> it is clearly not to going to be a binary choice for the gop domination in 2024 with pence and trump. if trump announces, which he looks like he may, there are many, many people -- >> alice, don't you think it makes him seem weak? why not stand there and say look, i disagree with donald trump. donald trump tried to get me to defy my oath. he tried to

the challenge for mike pence is to make this about the future. the one word to hear from pence is future, future. he wants to look forward. >> it will be a fascinating race if he does run. >>> as congress moves to protect same-sex marriage members offer appeals. >> i want my husband phil to visit me in the hospital. i want to make sure that my husband is taken care of just like your spouses are taken care of. from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplemenent plans help by payiying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor.. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ >> tech: need to get your windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy. >> tech vo: you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ hitting the road, not all 5g networks are

to come in and my response to that is mike pence is going to come in if mike pence wants to come in. this is in the first time we have heard the committee float the possibility of mike pence as a witness so you have to ask yourself, why are we having this discussion again? particularly given that any litigation over whether pence will be a witness before the committee would take longer than the process that they seem to have laid out and the schedule that they have. there is a possibility that the former vice president sees the tide turning against former president trump and he has information that he wants to share and his lawyers have signaled that the committee. i am really interested in seeing whether as the days unfold, why they will be what looks to be a reluctant and belated witness, but a witness nonetheless in front of the committee. >> i want to remind people, just how important it is when mike pence gets pulled out of the capital proper, goes down into the garage and then his will by secret service to get in the car and refuses to get in , quote, one congressional official

the new mike pence. so i'm just trying to figure this out. i do not think they do agree on policy, and if donald trump and mike pence run against each other, i am sure trump will draw the contrast. he will talk about how mike pence wants to cut medicare. he will say things like that, even if it's true. he will say things like. that he will also talk about trade differences. he wants free trade, trump's for protectionism. i don't think they agree. and for mike pence to stand up there and say, we agree on everything except that thing that happened on january 6th. even though they tried to hang the, hey, i'm still good with them. i mean, how does that work? >> it is clearly not to going to be a binary choice for the gop nomination in 2024 with pence and trump. if trump announces, which he looks like he may, there are many, many people -- >> alice, don't you think it makes him seem weak? why not stand there and say look, i disagree with donald trump. donald trump tried to get me to defy my oath. he tried to

what did donald trump say to mike pence? and those are questions asked in the very serious and formal environment of a grand jury. a granden jury that's preparings part of a criminal investigation for the possibility of charging people with crimes. >> so, carol, in you piece you describe two tracks of investigation in y your report. a track leading to potential seditious conspiracy charges and obstruction of an official proceeding on the one hand. and then anotheroc relating to fraud relating the fake elector scheme. do we know which track the justice department gathered more evidence and information on, leaningre particularly one way another? can we tell from their questioning? >> there are three different offices burrowing into these specific tracks. i don't know the answer to yourt question. i sure wish i did. i imagine they're full steam ahead on all of these tracks and that obviously, based on the grand jury witnesses who were brought in, the fake elector's piece is perhaps further along than any other. and a keep in mi

the problem for somebody like mike pence is that mike pence showed the little bit of courage he had in one moment to actually do his job. that's the courage he had. he actually did the constitutional job he was elected to do. that's the courage he showed. but he has gone no further to expand that courage and take on donald trump and take on the pillars of the party. which i think leaves mike pence with the slimmest of group of voters in the republican party. which is the group of voters that wanted him to be courageous for a couple hours but don't do anything against donald trump the rest of the way. that's the smallest group of voters in the republican party. the problem today for other rational republicans like liz cheney, who took it further and takes it on, is that the republican party voters are not really divided. there's not a civil war going on among the voters. there's a civil war and a fracturing going on among the leadership of mitch mcconnell and donald trump. that's not reflected in the voters in how republicans campaign for office, for district office in their primaries.

how senior were they, at least in mike pence world? >> they were incredibly significant, and incredibly senior in the trump white house. of course mark short was chief of staff to vice president mike pence. before, that was devastated for the trump white house. so, he was the face of the trump white house going to congress, negotiating with lawmakers. so, this is someone who is very familiar with the former president. president trump could not begin to even try to live up the fact that he doesn't know marc short. and mark short was incredibly important meetings. i think what's important about who marc short is in the world that is coming from is, that the vice president's office and mark short himself, we have not wanted to talk about january six too much. they have not wanted to sort of focus on it, because mark mike pence has been talking about inflation, but when you asked pence people, and i am including marc short, about january six, they don't hold back. marc short has been very clear and i talked to him last week out of the janu

mike pence did the right thing. look at the pressure that was put up to bear even though trump wanted to go to the capitol and didn't. his people still went. that was the whole point was to send mob. he didn't break him on the phone, so they're going to send a mob to break him. think that they didn't. >> he made it worse. he tweets two hours later to 24, mike pence. >> we all saw the video that he played of that video being played into the trump witch in seconds breaks into the hang mike pence chant. >> i think something they don't understand is the far-right groups. i just story in d.c.. talking to some of the folks in 27 in 2018. they know, they knew that they had access to trump. they were intentionally trying to put stories on the gateway pundits, on the news when maxes. knowing that there were people around him that gave him that information. that was a problem in terms of policy. they came to a combination on january six. when these actors knew that with the right information that was feeding trump wanted to h

pence himself. >> shan, why haven't we heard from mike pence? i know there are people in the line. help people understand. why not the proverbial? why not that person? >> two issues. they are politically, which i'm not the expert on. he probably does not want to go on record -- , keep that as little as possible. >> no witness wants to do that -- we don't care about that in doj. >> doj is going to be slightly concerned with what is the status, at this point. he would be tremendously valuable. but they are getting all of that information from the people near to him. as a prosecutor, i think you have to make some decision about pence first and if i was his lawyer, i would be looking to make sure i had some guarantees that you weren't looking at him as a target or subject. that may cause of delays in terms of getting him in front of the grand jury. >> i'm gonna give a harsher assessment. it ultimately comes down to a lack of courage. i just got to say, this was the one issue following through on the law, was the one place where we've given pence any

what's it donald trump say to mike pence? and those are questions asked in the very serious and formal environments of a grand jury. a grand jury that is preparing, as part of a criminal investigation, for the possibility of charging people with crimes. >> what's is not news, attorney general merrick garland has come under a whole lot of growing pressure to act as a january six committee reveals more details about the efforts to keep trump in power. and just hours before this latest news broke, garland sat down with our own lester holt and he discussed the departments work. >> we have been moving urgently since the very beginning, we have huge number of prosecutors and agents working at these cases. >> you said in no certain terms other day, nobody is above the law. that said, the indictment of a former president, perhaps candidate for president, would arguably tear the country apart. is that your concern? as you make a decision down the road here, do you have to think about things like that? >> look, we pursue justice withou

pence has not been somebody that they view as a likely competitor against trump, even if mike pence does run against donald trump in a primary which my sources tell me it's quite possible at this point, that he would take on his former boss in a cruded gop primary. >> it is certainly going to be crowded. >> well, look, donald trump might want crowded, but again what i find so interesting is the lawmakers encouraging him in front of each other, encouraging mike pence to run. i just can't imagine that being something we would have seen eight months ago. >> it's remarkable. it's something everyone had a suspicion that pence was headed for obviously. anyway, gabby and melanie, thank you so much for that reporting. we will make sure to stay on top of this. >>> meanwhile, there is a mysterious bundle of string that was seen on the surface of mars. >> what? >> looks like floss. >>> plus president biden heads to pennsylvania today as crime rises in certain places in the country. ahead, new white house adviser keisha lance bottoms will join us. (dog barking) we love our pets. but we don't always

pence himself. >> why haven't we heard, though, from mike pence? i know all the people who are sort of in the line. help people understand. why not the proverbial? why not that person? >> i think there are two issues. politically, which i'm not the expert on, he probably does not want to go on record. >> no witness wants to go on record. we don't care about that in d.o.j. >> well, d.o.j. is going to be slightly concerned with what is his status at this point. he would be tremendously valuable but they are getting all that information from the people near to him. as a prosecutor, i think he'd have to make decisions about pence first, and if i was his lawyer, i would be looking to make sure i had guarantees that you weren't looking at him as a target or a subject. so that may cause some delays in terms of getting him in front of the grand jury. >> i'm going to give a harsher assessment. it ultimately comes down to a lack of courage. this was the one issue following through on the law was the one place we've given pence any credit for showing back bon

look, it's a tight rope, he is walking, with mike pence, though it is filled with irony. to your point, donald trump knew that mike pence's life was in danger, donald trump said, let's reduce security, not increase it. that is fairly emasculating for the platform for a potential presidential bid by mike pence. >> yeah, i mean he sent an armed mob up to the building that he wants it you know, to go try to pressure the guy. possibly to injure him. he painted a target on its back. it's what's he did was vile. and i guess, the willful -- conditions this is just so embedded in the function of all of these people, that they're just gonna go do it. but it also seems like, it's a little like, what are you gonna do when he tells you to your face on a debate stage, he wishes you had ended up in the gallops? it's like you know, while we disagree about that. that's not gonna work dude. i mean obviously, whatever, they are not thinking that far ahead. but this whole like, not crossed him, but be a little different, i don't know. it just seems so insane to me. >> no, you are exactly, r

they were shouting pence as a punk. they're shining hang mike pence. during the hearing, congressman gloria said that the chief white house photographer. she was asked to stop taking pictures of the president in the dining room for the archives. give us historical perspective. put into context. what was this like for richard nixon? >> well richard nixon looks like an angelic cherub compared to everything we're learning about donald trump. he is certainly violated the constitution, he has certainly deserved to be driven out of office, and i don't even think that the jury should pardon him. because enter people like donald trump, who can abuse power in the presidency, and you can get away with it forever. but put all the presents of nine states, except for trump, and one category. but donald trump on the other category. category number two is all those presidents who tried to destroy our democracy and steal an election in order to stay at legally in power. no other president comes near to even imagine that. and i think before these hearings americans hav

the former vice president mike pence's security staff said that they had feared for their lives. we had some testimony there that they even made good by calls to their family, they were that scared. what is the legal threshold though that this committee has got to reach to take this further?— further? ultimately the committee _ further? ultimately the committee doesn't - further? ultimately the | committee doesn't have further? ultimately the - committee doesn't have the powers to bring criminal charges, all they can bring as set out the facts as they see it, broadcast the testimony but ultimately it is up to the justice department to take this further. ., ~ justice department to take this further. ., ,, , ., justice department to take this further. . ~' , ., , further. 0k, thank you very much indeed. _ we can now speak tojennifer kerns who's a republican strategist, author and conservative national talk show host. i don't know if you heard my last question to rhianna in terms of what legal threshold would persuade perhaps the department forjustice to move further, have we seen

they were not shouting pence is a punk. they're shouting hang mike pence. during the hearing, congressman gloria said that the chief white house photographer. she was asked to stop taking pictures of the president in the dining room for the archives. give us historical perspective. put into context. what was this like for richard nixon? >> well richard nixon looks like an angelic cherub compared to everything we're learning about donald trump. he is certainly violated the constitution, he has certainly deserved to be driven out of office, and i don't even think that the jury should pardon him. because enter people like donald trump, who can abuse power in the presidency, and you can get away with it forever. but put all the presents of nine states, except for trump, and one category. but donald trump on the other category. category number two is all those presidents who tried to destroy our democracy and steal an election in order to stay at legally in power. no other president comes near to even imagine that. and i think before these hearings americans hav

the tweets, go after mike pence, that just exacerbated, inflamed them to go after mike pence when he condemned mike pence for lack of courage. and to overturn the election as though he could. and when he did call it off, sort 6 called it off or said to go home in very soft language, that tweet immediately went through the crowd. and according to stephen ayres they began to disperse a little although there was still hours more of fighting, hand to hand combat on the west lawn. frank. >> yeah, we've seen evidence throughout the hearings of this call and response, this influence that trump has as kind of a radicalizer in chief and there is now tangible evidence of that. and the reverse is true. the choice to not act also of course caused this to exacerbate, get aggravated, get more violent and then we've learned that at the point that vice president pence may have been in the most peril that afternoon, here is the president deciding to launch tweets that actually further aggravate the situation. but you know, there is another aspect to last night that also caught my eye as a national se

mike pence did the right thing. look at the pressure that was put up to bear even though trump wanted to go to the capitol and didn't. his people still went. that was the whole point was to send mob. he didn't break him on the phone, so they're going to send a mob to break him. think that they didn't. >> he made it worse. he tweets two hours later to 24, mike pence. >> we all saw the video that he played of that video being played into the trump witch in seconds breaks into the hang mike pence chant. >> i think something they don't understand is the far-right groups. i just story in d. c.. talking to some of the folks in 27 in 2018. they know, they knew that they had access to trump. they were intentionally trying to put stories on the gateway pundits, on the news when maxes. knowing that there were people around him that gave him that information. that was a problem in terms of policy. they came to a combination on january six. when these actors knew that with the right information that was feeding trump wanted to

but you know what, mike pence and trump will be and is albatross around the neck of mike pence either way. with the maca, they hate him and think he betrayed the former president with the more mainstream conservative republicans who built their party has been hijacked and they have had enough, they will not go with him because they will be like look, you keep touting the accomplishments of that administration and you are part of it. you didn't walk away. and made a phone call to dan quayle and the list goes on. i'm sorry, i will go to vegas and i don't think mike pence will be the g.o.p. nominee. i think it is good that he said he wants to look for birds because that is really the only thing i heard him say differently than donald trump when it came to a vision and you need to be different than europe only even if you are on the same fight with the g.o.p. wearing a red suit. >> gillian: jason, the former vice president chief of staff was on with brett earlier tonight. he took a pretty hefty swipe when asked about their endorsement of different candidates in arizona. >> i think it is c

how senior were they, at least in mike pence were? >> they were incredibly significant, and incredibly senior in the trump white house. of course mark short was chief of staff to vice president mike pence. before, that was devastated for the trump white house. so, he was the face of the trump white house going to congress, negotiating with lawmakers. so, this is someone who is very familiar with the former president. president trump could not begin to even try to live up the back, as he doesn't know marc short. and mark short was incredibly important meetings. i think what's important about who marc short is in the world that is coming from is, that the vice president's office and mark short himself, we have not wanted to talk about january six too much. they have not wanted to sort of focus on it, because mark mike pence has been talking about inflation, but when you asked pence people, and i am including marc short, about january six, they don't hold back. marc short has been very clear and i talked to him last week out of the janua

so i've seen almost no appetite for mike pence. in fact, they don't really want these establishment, sort of old guard republicans at all. they're much more interested if not in trump himself, the american first wing of the republican party. >> you cannot overstate how stunning it would be to see a head-to-head match between a former president and his former vice president. by the way, if that's what we see for 2024, but by the way, pence has not said a lot about the riots, the day people were chanting "hang mike pence" or the president said he was disappointed in him. >> well, i think mike pence would say actions speak louder than words. what he did on january 6th and standing up to the mob and the intimidation tactics deserves to be praised and noted every time we talk about it. >> no doubt. >> regarding the political ramifications of him running in 2024, a few things can be true. number one, he's earned the right to make the case he's making. i also watched the speech. he checked every single box on policy that any republican or

was there going to be a meeting with mike pence first or were they just going to oust mike pence? i am curious about that. there are details like that that all of the members are interested in and every day more and more witnesses are coming forward to talk to us. our charge is not just a report on what happened on january 6 and the causes behind it but also to make recommendations about how we are going to improve the electoral count act so we do not get an attempt to snatch victory out of the jaws of certain electoral defeat like this again and how we will fortify the capital and the congress to make sure we are not vulnerable to violent insurrections. most importantly, how we will strengthen the election process in our democracy so that people are not subject to voter suppression and manipulation of their will and attempts to usurp popular decisions by inside groups that use the levers of power to thwart democracy. we have a precious thing going in american democracy. we know autocrats and dictators are on the march all over the world, but we have to defend american democracy i

>> i think big picture, as long as matt gaetz continues to talk about mike pence, it is better for mike pence because there is a clear contrast there. listen, mike pence has shown that he can be trusted with the constitution. he has, under the worst circumstances, was able to stand and do his job. and keep our democracy from descending into chaos. so he has earned the trust of a lot of republicans and i think the -- i think the jury is still out. let people continue to go, and talk about their message. and we will see who has the best message for conservatives going forward. >> congresswoman love, s.e. cupp, thank you very much. >>> still to come, the white house is expected to name a monkeypox coordinator soon. this as criticism of the federal response grows. what dr. fauci said this morning about the virus. >>> and new cnn reporting this morning, fascinating reporting from our joan biskupic on how john roberts tried and in the end ultimately failed to lobby his fellow conservative justices to preserve some abortion rights. details on how it all unfolded behind the scenes. >>> plus, fl

mike pence are you trump and only trump or are you open to an alternative. are you open to the idea that you can be conservative with a less active social media account? i think right now mike pence is the face of that other side. you mentioned nikki haley tim scott. cotton. there will be others. it will not be like 2016. >> bret: might not be like 2020, 2016 when we had tons of people on a debate stage. meantime the recession and what this looks like. is it a recession? here's the back and forth on that word. >> two negative quarters of g.d.p. growth is not the technical definition of recession. it's not the definition that economists have traditionally relied on. >> he may want to call it something else, but the american people are feeling the pain of that recession. >> bret: we're going to get the g.d.p. numbers on thursday, leslie. i mean, it's tough, this whole definition back and forth. >> i have seen in the past 72 hours economists not as pessimist and people like the ceo of citi corps saying it's not imminent and we thought it was. the reason is even

before serving public life, mike pence was a radio show host. in fact, i remember a couple of years ago i was filling in for a guy named martin in milwaukee, and i asked the vice president if you would be on as i was filling in. you have to have a hook. what? you have to have a hook. rush limbaugh is like the best ever. when you go to commercial have to have a hook. it's no wonder it's a great radios because now he has a podcast if you haven't had a chance to listen to it you should. one of my favorites and most compelling one i've heard is when he talks on 9/11, the two students, to young people who lost their father, when in the twin towers, the other for father actually re-up into the united states military and died defending our freedoms abroad. mike pence does an incredible job of bringing their stories to light and talking about how we can never forget what happened when the two decades ago when radical islamic terrorist took our freedoms not only here but in virginia and the fuel up in pennsylvania. tune in to his podcast. the other part

mike pence. knowing full well that it would only incite the mob even more. he also resent a speech after being notified that the capitol was under attack. he tweeted. what did he tweet? he retweeted his speech from earlier that day, telling them to go up to the capitol. so here you have -- and we have a theme here with donald trump's republican party. here you have an east coast elitist, an ivy league billionaire, that's playing phony populist, lying to the american people, lying to his supporters, whipping working class people into a frenzy that followed him closely, getting them to come up because they believed that the election had been stolen. it's what he'd been telling them nonstop. and what does he do? he sits there and lets them beat the hell out of police officers, beat the hell out of cops. he's not the only ivy league elitist who did that. we saw yesterday, again, the hypocrisy. we saw yesterday yale and stanford graduate josh hawley, another ivy league elitist who took on this phony p

donald trump, mike pence, both in washington, d.c. today. their appearances a lens to the future of the republican party and potentially the future of the country. as we get closer to 2024. for the former president, it's his first time back in d.c. since leaving office 553 days ago. and he will be speaking at a summit literally around the corner from the white house he left, refusing, you'll recall, to be part of the inauguration and the peaceful transfer of power. he will lay out a vision for public safety and crime, although trump has proven in recent speech, he manages to stay on topic for just so long before reverting to his old grievances about the 2020 election. on the other hand, his former vice president spoke at a d.c. conference this morning trying to look to the future and taking a shot a the his form boss at the same time. >> the good news is we have a once in a lifetime opportunity. to save america from decline and decay brought by been those progressive policies and to build a governing majority that will last for generations.

what's it donald trump say to mike pence? and those are questions asked in the very serious and formal environments of a grand jury. a grand jury that is preparing, as part of a criminal investigation, for the possibility of charging people with crimes. >> what's is not news, attorney general merrick garland has come under a whole lot of growing pressure to act as a january six committee reveals more details about the efforts to keep trump in power. and just hours before this latest news broke, garland sat down with our own lester holt and he discussed the departments work. >> we have been moving urgently since the very beginning, we have huge number of prosecutors and agents working at these cases. >> you said in no stars in terms other day, nobody is above the law. that said, the indictment of a former president, perhaps candidate for president, would arguably tear the country apart. is that your concern? as you make a decision down the road here, do you have to think about things like that? >> look, we pursue justice witho

two minutes later mike pence gets evacuated, the rioters come within 40 feet of mike pence and his detail causing members of the secret service to fear for their lives. and if i'm looking at this from a prosecutorial angle, the dereliction of duty, the failure to act is important. that 2:24 tweet that jumps out at me because that's an affirmative act. >> you also say we saw last night corroboration from testimony we had seen before from cassidy hutchinson. let's see that. >> when you say he did, is that your word or is that the word that was described by the agent? >> word described by the ts agent, meaning that the president was upset and he was saying there was a heated argument or discussion about going to the capitol. >> well, this is more corroboration, more support for cassidy hutchinson on a critical point. it often happens in investigations where a witness will tell you something important and another witness will deny it but you just don't throw up your hands, you dig into the evidence, you use your common sense. if we do that here, cassidy hutchinson testifies under oath that sh

he's speaking at an event less than a mile from where his former vice president mike pence looking and talking like a candidate, too, this morning. as part of a q&a pence was asked about the division between the former president and what it means for the party. >> i don't know that our movement is that divided. i don't know that the president and i differ on issues. but we may differ on focus. i truly do believe that elections are about the future and that it's absolutely essential at a time when so many americans are hurting, so many families are struggling that we don't give way to the temptation to look back. >> to be fair trump's speech is billed as his vision and dealing with crime. that said, pence wasn't the only one who tried to take some of the steam out of trump's return to washington. his remark is kind compared to president biden's stunning takedown yesterday when he called out trump's lack of courage on january 6 and referred to trump as the defeated former president. joining me now is correspondent vaughn hillyard in washington and ali vitale on capitol hill and david jol

wow, he puts a conservative like mike pence on the ticket. this is someone serious about getting the job done. he was a great governor in indiana, a great member of congress leading the congress -- conference, a precursor to the conservative movement. even before all that before serving in public life, mike pence was a radio show host. i remember i was filling in for a guy on news talk 1130 and i asked the vice president if you would be on. he said you have to have a hook. rush limbaugh is the best ever at this. you have to have a hook when you go to commercial. now he has a podcast if you have not had a chance to listen to you should. one of my favorites and most compelling one i've heard is when he talks on 9/11, the two students, to young people who lost their father, when in the twin towers. mike pence does an incredible job of bringing their stories to light and talking about how we can never forget what happened more than two decades ago when radical islamic terrorist took our freedoms not only here but in virginia and pennsylvania. the

it is insane. >> mike pence will not stick up for donald trump! mike pence, trader! traiter! >> mike pence has screwed us. in case you haven't heard it yet. >> what happened? what's happened? >> i keep hearing that mike pence screwed us. that's the word. i keep hearing reports on mike pence has screwed us. >> did people appear angry as you were walking to the capitol? >> yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people seem like they were very upset. >> tell us some of the things that we're saying if you recall. >> oh, there were saying all types -- people were screaming all types of stuff. they're mad that vice president pence was going to accept the electorals. i mean, it was -- if you could think it out you are hearing it. >> i believe that the president -- vice president pence was going to certify the electoral votes -- or not certify them. i guess that has just changed, correct? and it's a big disappointment. i think there's several hundred thousand people here that are very disappointed. >> president trump did not try to calm his thousands of disappointed supporters. instead, it

look, it is a known thing in pence's orbit and for those of us who worked for mike pence that i think he desired to make a run for the oval office. i think that's partially why he joined the trump administration on this ticket. i think that you'll see him continue to tout some of the policies that he supported that he felt were a success. i think you'll see him run on that while also trying to carefully balance obviously this conflict that he has ongoing with the former president. >> this friday both men will be in arizona at dueling rallies, backing rival candidates, very different visions for the gop's future. trump's candidate in arizona is still embracing lies that trump won the 2020 election. how critical are these midterms for republicans and the party's legacy? >> look, i think they're incredibly important for republicans and i would say they're very important for the country as a whole. here you have donald trump out there consistently supporting election deniers. as of june, i think there were in more than half of the governors races there's an election denier running in them

the rioters chanted hang mike pence. the president of the united states, donald trump, said that, calls, mike deserves it and that rioters -- those rioters were not doing anything wrong. in an interview with nbc correspondent jonathan carle, president trump was asked about the supportive chanted hang mike pence. instead of condemning them, the former president commanded them -- defended them. >> it is common sense that you are supposed to protect -- if you know april is fraudulent, how can you pass on a fraudulent to congress? rep. cheney: president viewed that the writers were not doing anything wrong. also to understand why the president did not ask the rioters to leave the capital for multiple hours. he put this tweet out at 2:24 p.m. ms. hutchison, do you recall seeing this between -- this tweet? ms. hutchinson: i do. rep. cheney: what was your reaction? ms. hutchinson: as a staffer that worked to always represent the administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things he has done for the country

. >> as this next video shows the rioters anger was fo focused primarily and vice president mike pence. >> this woman kim's up to the side of us and she says. pence folded. so. it was kind of like, okay. well. in my mind, i was thinking, well, that's it. you know? well, my son in law. looks at me and he says. i want to go in. >> what percentage of the crowd is going to the capitol? >> 100%. it is. it spread like >> there is saying all-time nba. people are screaming all types they're mad that vice president pence was going to electorales. i mean, it and here's what you can. if you can think it up that you are hearing it. >> i believe vice president pence was going to certify the electorial votes and are not certify them that i guess it's just changed, correct. and it's very big disappointment. i think there are several 100,000 people here that are very disappointed. >> president trump did not try to calm his thousands of disappointed supporters instead it almost the same moment violence was getting completely out of hand. donald trump sent his 2.24 tweet. the president said. mike pence

it is insane. >> mike pence. mike pence is a traitor. >> mike pence has hurt us, i guess you haven't heard yet. >> what happened? what happened? >> it appears that mike pence has screwed us, that's what i heard that mike pence has screwed us. >> people appeared angry as you were walk to the capitol? >> a lot of people seemed like they were very upset. >> tell us some of the things they were saying if you recall. >> they were saying -- people were screaming all types of stuff. they are mad that vice president pence was going to accept the electorals, i mean it was -- if you could think it up, you were hearing it. >> i believe the that vice president pence was going to certify the electoral votes or not certify them. but i guess that's just changed, correct? and it's a very big disappointment. i think there are several hundred theusand people here that are very disappointed. >> president trump did not try to calm his thousands of disappointed supporters. instead, at almost the same moment violence was getting compl

things like hang mike pence, we love you, you're very special. and as a spokesperson for him, i knew that i would be asked to defend that. and to me, his refusal to act and call off the mob that day and his refusal to condemn the violence was indefensible. and so i knew that i would be resigning that evening. and so i finished out the work day, went home and called my loved ones to tell them of my decision and resigned that evening. thank you indefensible. let's hear what some of your colleagues in the press office paused about their reaction to the same for 17 message. i feel like it was the absolute bare minimum of what could have been said at that point, or something on camera. what else you didn't shoes? i so a more forceful, a more forceful dismissal of the violence, a more forceful command to go home, a more forceful respect for law enforcement. even a comparison to the respect that we have given law enforcement as it relates to what was done to them in the prior summer. and i thought it was important that an acknowledgment be given to the

you heard that from mike pence. it seems like a thinly veiled reference to the fact every speech trump gives ends up being about 2020 election. he is hung up on the grievances, on the people he believes betrayed him and on these conspiracy theories around the election. so today is really a test to see whether or not he can stay on message. the america first policy, some conservative leaders from across the spectrum, we have ted cruz, kevin mccarthy, lindsey graham, kelly ann conway, all focused on the future of the republican party t. remains to be seen whether president trump can actually move forward as he mulls a presidential run. >> on the scene of the big speech. glad to have you on the program. we'll see what trump says. let's bring the conversation back into the room. is it irony? help mean with the right word that donald trump is to give a speech on law and order when we know that a federal grand jury is inside the west wing investigating his efforts to steal the country, to steal an election. >> it's just p

about mike pence, it. message about mike pence, it was him — message about mike pence, it was him pouring _ message about mike pence, it was him pouring gasoline - message about mike pence, it was him pouring gasoline on l message about mike pence, it. was him pouring gasoline on the fire and — was him pouring gasoline on the fire and making _ was him pouring gasoline on the fire and making it— was him pouring gasoline on the fire and making it much- was him pouring gasoline on the fire and making it much worse. i fire and making it much worse. thank— fire and making it much worse. thank you _ fire and making it much worse. thank you both. _ fire and making it much worse. thank you both. some - fire and making it much worse. thank you both. some other. thank you both. some other reactions to the tweet. mr; reactions to the tweet. my reaction — reactions to the tweet. my reaction was _ reactions to the tweet. my reaction was it _ reactions to the tweet. my reaction was it was a terrible tweet — reaction was it was a terrible tweet i_ reaction was it was a terrible tweet. i disagr

because mike pence could get a round of applause in d. c., but at the same time, arizona republican house speaker rusty bowers has just been censured by the state party after he testified before the january 6th committee. so, where do you think the party is? >> well, i do not think that pence will be the nominee. a lot of people say that you should run for president, because they think that is what you want to hear. no one who is a trumpy, will want pence. because he did not have the courage to not certify. and anyone who is not for a trumpy, will not want mike pence anywhere near the presidency, because he was such a robotic suck up. to trump and so he is not on the rise. i have talked to some of my former republican colleagues and of late, they have been saying that there is a fading effect with support of trump. now, if there is a multi candidate field, maybe he does what he did and in the 16 and he gets the nomination. but, i think that the hearings have hurt him. >> i want to play a part of a clip of kevin mccarthy on fox news earlie

so what they say when they walk out of a meeting, they say they love mike pence. is to me, basically meaningless. one, two, as donald trump's thousand 80, 85% favor ability rating among republican primary voters. he has a 95% success rate on who he endorses and who wins the primary. and every single poll shows donald trump with over 50% in a huge multi candidate field. in a much stronger position now than he was in 2015 and 2016 when you first ran and won the republican nomination and then won the presidency. i think that right now, mike pence is not even close to the top tier on the list. there is donald trump and everybody else in this list. and so, until you see these republican congressman stand up to donald trump, as i say, i take what they say with a truckload of salt in their support of mike pence. >> i'll, i am not even talking about who could be a candidate two years from now. i'm talking about, where is the republican party right now. because mike pence could get a round of applause in d.c., but at the same time, arizona republican house speaker rusty bo

on the other side, you have mike pence taking a decidingly different tact. what are you hearing about that war between republicans and team pence and team trump that was something that we just -- i just spoke to ali about and it seems that as the midterms gear up and as 2024 comes more into focus, this is going to be more of a battle. >> well, elise, it is a great point. when i talk to republicans, what i get -- what i get from them it is not a war, it is more of a skirmish. mike pence is an anomaly in the republican party is that he's someone willing to stand up in front of a crowd and say that the 2020 election was not stolen and that january 6 was one of the darkest days in our american history. mike pence has broken away from former president trump and he's really had to pay a cost for that. i was talking to a producer of mine and she was telling me that in western pennsylvania, she's seen signs of the old trump pence 2020 signs where people are cutting out the name of pence. that tells you what the republican base is feeling like on pence. if they're cu

it's a tight rope he's walking, but with mike pence it is filled with irony. to your point, donald trump viewed that mike pence's life is in danger donald trump said let's reduce security not increase it. >> yeah, he sent an armed mob up to the capital to try to pressure the guy, possibly to injure him. he painted a target on his back. what he did was vile, and i guess the willful -- was has just been so embedded in the functioning of all these people that they are just going to go do it, but it also seems like -- what are you going to do when he tells you in your face on a debate stage he wishes you ended up on the gallows? well we disagree about that. that's not gonna work dude. obviously we are not thinking this far ahead, but this whole not cross in but the little different -- i don't know, it just seems so insane to me. >> you are exactly right. let's be honest. mike pence is gonna finish in the low single digits. that's just how it's going to be. he might finish a couple of points ahead of liz cheney if she decides to run. you're exactly right, it's like