step towards the eradication or prevention of unethical story gathering practices which lord justice levinson heard about? >> no. >> why not? >> i am sure people that have been arrested were once members of nuj. >> and? >> well, didn't stop them doing what they did. >> but if the n.u.j. had a presence, it would be somewhere for a journalist to turn should they feel they were under pressure to do something unethical. >> it didn't work out that way when the n.u.j. was there. >> that embellishment is referred to in trade union circles as the nesa clause. what i want to suggest to you is that you had some discussion or people in news international had some discussion with mr. blair or officials on his side to ensure that that provision was in the legislation so that at the n.u.j and any other union could not make an application for recognition for collective barring takening at news international. >> no. >> sure about that. >> that can either be no or i don't know anything about this. which is it? >> well, i know that i had never approached mr. blair or spoke to mr. blair about it. otherwise i ha