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Poster: UncleBruce Date: Dec 4, 2015 1:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

I was just reading the new All a Dream book and it casually mentioned that the boys did not like the vocals or they were too low in the mix of the live recordings from Europe so before they released the album they played the live recorded instruments through amps, set up mikes and re-sang all the vocals.....blew my mind, so all the Europe 72 has re-recorded vocals??? seems weird maybe read it wrong, anybody have any more info on this?

Thx!!

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Dec 4, 2015 3:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

No no no, not all. During what is known as "post production" (meaning after the actual performance), in order to fix minor problems and tweak the recordings for "official" release, certain things are nearly always done, this was true for pretty much all bands in those days. This includes overdubbing. Be it instruments or vocals. What ever could be improved to polish the final product. That involves entering a studio, putting on some headphones, playing the track, and standing in front of a mic and singing the parts deemed in need of improvement. The resulting studio performed vocal part is then "punched in" to the multitrack production master.

That technique was also used for the Skullfuck double live album. If you listen very carefully on a good system you can hear the dubbed parts when they happen. They tend to sound like an added layer to what was already there. It might just be harmony parts or background vocals. They definitely did not redo all the vocals, not even close.

Supposedly, for Europe 72, the songs selected for release were actually cut out of the multitrack masters and spliced together and the overdubs were recorded right on to the original master tape to save a tape generation to preserve quality. It resulted in wiping the actual original performance vocal in overdubbed sections forever. And that created a problem with doing the box set release. They couldn't go back to the original pre-overdubbed version. I don't think it was every song and it was only here and there in the songs that were affected.

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Poster: UncleBruce Date: Dec 4, 2015 4:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

wow love this place, great answer, very interesting, how u know so much?
anyhow so it's not the whole thing or whole shows just certain whole songs or would they even do just one part of a single song? good to know, glad it's not the whole thang, will have to listen for added skullfuck layer.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Dec 4, 2015 5:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-europe-72-overdubs-guest-post.html
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2015-12-05 01:01:10

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 4, 2015 5:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

Hey UB--like you, I was greatly disappointed to learn this... I understand the thinking, BUT our band made a big point of stressing how good they were live, and we all bought it. They didn't do it for Live Dead, so...

I really took it as a sign at the time... Also means they agree with me: post 71, they couldn't sing!!!

;)

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Dec 4, 2015 6:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

No entire vocal was replaced on any song on either of those albums. Just a line or two here and there or a chorus part. Nearly all live albums have that kind of work done to fix minor problems in otherwise very strong performances. It was done on both Europe 72 and Skullfuck.

Just because they were a band known for their live shows doesn't mean they didn't make little mistakes here and there or run into technical issues that marred great recordings but were fixable. Official releases in those days needed to be as well presented as possible to hold up to the critical scrutiny they were going to get. Albums were major pieces of work. Usually only 1 came out a year.

I think Live Dead was on 8 tracks, not 16 so things were combined on most tracks. That may have made it not possible to do. That is certainly the case with all the Dick's and Dave's Picks and Road Trips which are mixed live to 2 track. You can't fix much when it's all mixed together already.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 4, 2015 8:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

If you check the Europe '72 overdubs post that jerlouvis linked, most of the songs on the album had the vocals redone. Not always the entire vocal - sometimes just part of the song, or the harmony vocals - but in general, most of the singing on the album was done in the studio. Only 3 or 4 songs were untouched. Not to mention that Keith recorded new piano parts for several songs, too. They did a whole lot more than just fixing little mistakes.
This post was modified by light into ashes on 2015-12-05 04:41:51

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Dec 4, 2015 8:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

Oy... I missed the jerlouvis link when responding from my iphone while on the move.

Indeed it's fair to say that more was redone in the studio with Europe 72 than what I thought from memories I was relying on about this issue. Please remember I was also bringing Skullfuck and live albums of that era generally into it too, with respect to my comments on overdubbing as a method of polishing live performances for official releases. Just as the opening paragraphs of Steven Seachrist's guest post mentions. Determining the EXACT extent of original live vs overdubbed is complicated and it doesn't really matter other than to say in modern times such interventions are surprising news to many folks.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2015 9:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

Yea, at the time, we all thought that something was "flat" about EUR 72, defn compared to s&r, and yet we weren't in the know... Yrs later finding out about dubbing, we said, "Duh!?!?" Again, it's a continuum in which our band represented something that was not part of commercialization, and though your logic sounds fine, it really did seem a small violation, a move toward the slippery slope of the guys who didn't even actually sing--Milli Vanilli--that had to give back a Grammy...a long slope, I know, but your point that most do it is precisely why our band didn't... How would we feel if the lead guitar in StSt on live DEAD was overdubbed? It would've lessened the reputation of our band to learn that in 1970, at least for many purists... I think.
This post was modified by William Tell on 2015-12-05 17:22:35

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Poster: UncleBruce Date: Dec 5, 2015 8:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

Hey if it's a spot here and there no problem and I understand a bit of polish. My original horror was feeling duped if ALL the vocals were overdubbed since the vocals are so deeply connected and tightly woven into the emotional fabric of a live performance.

along similar lines of polish I think the practice of some of these Road Trip releases or whatever where they pick and choose song order and mix in songs from other nights is a lil wrong. Cut a few seconds here and there between? ok but the vibe is the full character and landscape of a show, boring spots, lame performances followed by streams of sunlight.
well, I am sure this has been mentioned before and is for another post.

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Poster: UncleBruce Date: Dec 5, 2015 8:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

wait now I see most of the vocals were re-dubbed, ugh whatever, the boys kick ass, I will let this pass, for now.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Dec 5, 2015 9:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

Never mind the vocals and just enjoy the majesty of this Dark Star.I would assume unmolested in it's transfer by Charlie.

https://archive.org/details/gd1972-05-18.sbd.miller.79057.sbeok.flac16

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2015 1:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

Excellent advice; you know, not to cue Monte for a multipage repost, BUT I often wonder if those around for all the mailings on Round Records/DEAD records/etc., those that joined the fan club in 71/72 via S&R, have a much stronger "sense" of what the DEAD represented...?

Of course, I am always "on" about this, how I fought for what they represented, and how strongly I/we believed what they said, and they said these things (we don't like suits, we can do 'it' better; we won't rip you off; we are genuine; blah, blah, blah), and thus, this dubbing thing was at the time, much bigger than folks might think.

Anyhoo, my point is, I often think it's an age related phenomenon, and that I am simply one of those that lived in the Bay Area at this precise time, and was thus influenced by it all, and of course, sucked it all up uncritically, etc., etc., etc. They really should have paid me for all the PR they rec'd; at least 5, maybe 10 diff people went to one of their shows this summer that told me they traced their interest to my droning on about them in 74-78 or so. AGain, no pat on the back here--the fact is I was relatively pathetic--the odd man out as a bball playing, DEAD spouting, too late for the 60s, middle class hippie wanna be...

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Poster: Incornsyucopia Date: Dec 5, 2015 4:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Re-recording the vocals on Europe 72?

No, Live/Dead was recorded on 16 tracks. Chap. 24 of McNally's A Long Strange Trip discusses how the band's roadies at the time brought it from the studio it was in (where they were recording Aoxomoxoa) to, first, the Avalon Ballroom and then the Fillmore West.

But I agree that complaints about the overdubbing on Europe '72 is pretty ridiculous. They're mostly fairly subtle and mostly about cleaning up vocals that in a live concert (and as part of a busy tour) inevitably got fairly ragged. Garcia's vocals on "Morning Dew" are a perfect example. On the released May 26 show, you can hear his live vocals; they're not bad but the parts they overdubbted certainly improved it. I certainly don't begrudge the band doing it. As you say, what one can have no problem with in a live concert can be really annoying when on a recording. Not surprising that they tried to make the album sound as good as they could.